So You Promoted Me To Eat Pizza? with Amy O'Donnell

We explore how spiritual growth moves from private devotion to public responsibility as Amy O’Donnell steps from communications director to executive director at Texas Alliance for Life. She shares hard-won lessons on delegation, media pressure, authentic voice, and the rhythms that keep leaders healthy.

• shifting from church-centered growth to action in the public square
• media training before Dobbs and navigating intense interviews
• building thick skin while keeping empathy for people
• moving from second chair to first chair leadership
• delegating authority, setting accountability, raising morale
• Navy SEAL lessons on discipline and honest self-audit
• finding a new leadership voice after a founder
• using AI as a refining tool, not an origin
• non-sectarian bridge-building across faith communities
• people as the why: donors, families, mothers, and children
• recovery and healing resources after abortion
• rhythms of run and rest to prevent burnout

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Transcript

Spiritual Growth Beyond Rituals

Piet Van Waarde 0:00

Welcome to another sidewalk conversation. I am your host, Pete Van Ward, and I am so glad that you have joined us today. And as always, we have a great guest. I think you'll find her very interesting. But before I introduce her to you, I just want to like set it up today by talking about a book that I'm reading recently. The book is entitled Making Spiritual Progress. And I've been challenged by this book because it's talking about all the ways in which God is calling us to move forward in our relationship with Him. Now, maybe that sounds obvious, but I think most of the time when we think about that, we think about like spiritual tasks and religious duties, like, am I reading my Bible often enough? Am I praying often enough? Am I going to church regularly? Am I giving? And all those things, all those religious activities. But one of the points that this book is making is that there is also a responsibility in our growth in the Lord to take on the responsibilities that He has given to us. So there's a real world application to our spiritual growth. And I found myself challenged by that. But I'm also inspired by people who take that assignment seriously. And that's one of the things I appreciate most about my guest today. She has done that. She has been a person who has, yes, done all the things you're supposed to do to grow in the Lord. Like she's been involved in church and she's been involved in groups and she's had leadership positions. But in addition to that, she's also tackled a role in the community that is a like a great reflection of her faith and a great reflection of her heart. And I can't wait to have her share that with you and for you to meet her and be inspired by her in the same way that I have. We'll put the contact information in the notes below, but thank you, Crystal, for your support of this podcast. Now, without any further ado, let me introduce you to our guest today, Amy O'Donnell.

Amy O'Donnell 2:55

Thank you for having me.

Piet Van Waarde 2:57

Oh, it's so good to have you. We've been talking about this for a bit. Yes. You've been extremely busy. Very um, in fact, we I was thinking about this. We had you in season one, uh, way back when we were in like our first studio here in Texas. And uh and a lot has happened in your life since season one. So I thought, well, let's just start there. Um, what what has like you've been doing over the last few years? I know you know, you don't have to go back over all the things we talked about, but there's like a recent update, the last couple years.

From Communications To Executive Director

Media Firestorm After Dobbs

Amy O'Donnell 3:28

Yes. Over the last seven years, I've been on staff at Texas Alliance for Life. I served as a communications director for seven years and just recently stepped into the role of executive director. And that has been like real recently. Real recently, November 19th. I know the day, actually. It's that recent. And so it has been an amazing growth opportunity for me to step into the community away from the church world where it's so easy to get into a bubble and to think that the church world is the whole world. Well, we're called to go out into the whole world and to be the church. And lo and behold, God called me to go out and to do that. And so we all wear the ministry hat and all the arenas that we walk in. And I got to wear that hat at Texas Alliance for Life, advocating for unborn babies and the protection of life actually from conception to natural death. So people don't think about that issue for that full spectrum. It's a it's a spectrum from life to natural death. And so from the beginnings to the end. And so we advocate for protections for life across that full spectrum. And as communications director, I've had the opportunity to start out helping write emails, work on the website, craft social media posts. And a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to go to media training and then step into media interviews and be a spokesperson for the organization. And that was right before Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade and we headed into a media firestorm. And so that couple of weeks for us after the leak initially, and then the brief that came out with the opinion of the justices, we were doing nonstop interviews all day for weeks. And so it was really helpful.

Piet Van Waarde 5:20

Of course, all of those were very positive. They saw your position and and and took it seriously.

Amy O'Donnell 5:27

It was a it was a big entrustment on behalf of my organization to have me step into that role and at such a key time. And I took it very seriously. And still today, I take those opportunities seriously and do my best to research and be ready so that when I'm given the opportunity, I represent the organization well. And because of that, I know what it is to be right through the coals in the media. I know what it is to have great relationships with reporters. There are some great reporters out there. There are some snaky reporters out there, but they definitely all can't be stereotyped. It's been a great experience for me. And then, yes, now I'm leading the organization and going through the hiring process to replace myself as communications director. And after a couple of hiring processes, I can honestly say I enjoy hiring as much as shopping for a car. But the end product is so important. As with a car needs to fit your family, your budget, check all the boxes. When you hire somebody, they need to check all the boxes or what you're looking for, fit your organizational chemistry. So it's not a process I greatly enjoy, even though I love people and I love leading teams, but I just know it's critical to get to the point that we feel positions. And it's your first hire, right? Well, it's my second in this capacity, yes. And so I hired um actually third. And so yeah.

Piet Van Waarde 6:55

So I I I know that this is one of those organizations where there's like so many impressions, so many different opinions about what you do and thoughts about what you do, and as a result, a lot of misunderstanding, of course. So I'm curious if there's like one or two things that you wish people understood about your work and what you do and why it matters, what would you say?

Thick Skin And The Value Of Life

Amy O'Donnell 7:20

My gut answer is that to get to this place, you have to have pretty thick skin. And while I love people, I don't spend a lot of time wondering about what people think about what I do or what misconceptions they have.

Piet Van Waarde 7:34

Okay.

Amy O'Donnell 7:34

So I work to educate on the life issue. Every so often I take a step back and I think it's crazy that I even do what I do. It's crazy to think that anywhere in time anybody thought it was okay to take a life simply because of where it is located. A life in the womb is as valuable in the womb as it is outside the womb. You yourself sitting there, you're the exact same person that you were in your mother's womb. You're just further down the spectrum of life.

Piet Van Waarde 7:59

Yeah.

Amy O'Donnell 8:00

So where in the world did anybody ever say it's okay to take a life of a baby in their most vulnerable place inside the mother? So it's an evil in the world that have an opportunity to address. And then on the end of life, we want to make sure that patients receive the standard of care that they deserve and that we're protecting the conscience rights of physicians in difficult cases where prolonging care for somebody would cause physical harm. And so it's complex, but that that side of it's complex. I don't feel like the conception side of it should be. It's a no-brainer. But here I am.

Piet Van Waarde 8:37

All right. Well, thank you for that. I think that's a great answer. Um, now in this transition, you move from like second chair to first chair, where uh all of a sudden now you are responsible in new ways for everything. Like you had your slice in the communications, and now it's everything. What has that transition been like? How does that felt?

First Chair Leadership Shock

Amy O'Donnell 9:00

Like a roller coaster in a windstorm, and my hair and my cheeks, and like my clothes, and everything is just like flapping behind me as I'm flying and trying to hold on. But uh it's been a transition, and I've known for a while, I've just sensed that there was more coming. And a sense, without the reality of it happening, is just a sense, but still I've had the internal preparations and an awareness that something more was coming. And so that's helpful. I'm a very different leader than my predecessor. And we're my predecessor really like to be hands-on, micromanaging, very much in the details. I am a delegator by nature. And the opportunity that I've had has been amazing to really delegate to our team the things that they should be doing in their roles, that they want to be owning in their roles with oversight. And if they've been given a car to drive, given the keys to drive it. And it's been a joy of mine to be able to hand things off and to see their joy level increase and their morale levels increase. And uh the first time I said to somebody when they asked me a question, I trust you, you don't need me to answer that. They're like, wow, you you trust me? I trust you. And so it's been a joy.

Piet Van Waarde 10:24

It's probably been helpful to have, like now that I think about it, helpful to have that second chair experience because you realize there were some things about maybe the culture and about the leadership style that, like, I'm not sure that's gonna work as well, you know, going into the future. And so you learn from your own experience. Like, sure, I want to do that differently.

Amy O'Donnell 10:43

Absolutely. And I just love leading teams. It comes from what I've done at church at Shoreline. I led teams and I raised up leaders. And when I left, I had two people that replaced me in the key role that I had. And I really poured into them and I was so proud of them.

Piet Van Waarde 10:59

Yeah.

Delegation, Culture, And Team Trust

Amy O'Donnell 10:59

And by nature, I love really pouring into people and seeing them grow. And I'm committed to doing that for our team. But with that, it's interesting, we all have blind spots. I had a relationship really just come my way unexpectedly via a family member who I was sharing transition details with. And he's a Navy SEAL. And and I asked him, you know, how do you get your mind to switch from this mindset to this mindset if you really don't have any time in between to process or to you're just day one, you're here, day two, you're leading. And there's a lot of feelings and thoughts that go along with that that I just I still haven't had time to really sit and unpack. How do you just turn the page like that? And so he said, one, leadership is discipline. I was like, okay, yes, you're right. It doesn't really matter how I feel. And he said, you know, number two, I'm gonna say a true baby seal. He said, I'm gonna tell you what my officers always told me, don't screw it up. And number three, you need to make meet my friend Rodney. So I set up a lunch with his friend Rodney Magellan, I believe is his last name, and his wife, my husband, came along as well, and he wrote a book called Tip of the Spear. And I wasn't familiar with the terminology, but the tip of the spear is basically the tip of the organization, you know, the elites, the very few people make it to that place. And it takes a lot of perseverance, a lot of resilience, a lot of determination. And so Rodney also was a Navy SEAL, he's been a CIA operative, and he's had a wealth of experience leading teams. And so I shared with him where I was in the transition, what all was going on. And at the end, I said, okay, if you can tell me one thing that I should be doing now, what would it be? If if just one thing.

Piet Van Waarde 12:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Navy SEAL Lessons On Command

Amy O'Donnell 12:53

And he I said, I think I know what it's gonna be. I think you're gonna tell me I need to put together the full plan. He talked about this this plan of execution that you need to have to be successful in something. I said, I think it's gonna be that, but I'm gonna ask. He said, Well, what I'm gonna say is you need to be honest with yourself. What are you still doing that you shouldn't be doing that you should hand off to your team and let them handle? And I said, Well, I I told you I'm a delegator. I've been delegating, they're all excited about getting to do more. And uh he's like, just think about it, be honest with yourself. What are you still doing that you need to hand off? So I wasn't even to the light from the restaurant to get on the highway when it hit me, he's right. Well, of course he's right. Look at his history and background. And it dawned on me that I had delegated all the things that I knew that they would be excited about doing in their roles, but I was still doing some of the things that maybe I just needed to understand, but also might be challenging for them to do in some of their roles that it was time to hand over as well. And so I walked in that Monday and we do a leadership time and our staff meetings, and I shared about Rodney and the tip of the spear. And then I said, Okay, I've been delegating and they're like, Yeah, this it's been great, you know. But now I'm gonna give you the things you probably don't want to do that might be challenging for you to do, but they're gonna be expected of you, they're a part of your job. And it's he the um analogy he used is it's like this. He looked at David because we were at a pizza place and he said, It's like this, David. If I tell you that your job is to eat pizza, I need you to eat pizza. I don't care if you like to eat pizza, I need you to eat pizza. And you're like, Well, I just I don't know if I like pizza, pizza's chewy, I'm not great at eating pizza. Well, okay, David, I hear you saying that you don't really like to eat pizza, you're not great at eating pizza, but part of your job is eating pizza. So I'm gonna have that expectation. And if after this conversation, I don't feel like you're eating pizza well, we'll have another conversation. Send yourself an email, document it. David goes on. David's not eating pizza well. A couple months down the road, you bring David back in. David, we had a talk. I told you part of your job is eating pizza. You're not really eating pizza well. What's going on? Well, it's hard. I just haven't figured it out. Well, okay, do we need to get you some pizza eating trainings? What do we need to do? And you write yourself an email. If you have to have another conversation, it's not going to be a great conversation, but you have to hand off to things that people uh that they need to be doing, even if it's not what they enjoy. So anyway, it was a it was a great insight lesson. And even today I was doing an interview with somebody and she said, Oh, I have experience in this, this, and this. And I made a mental note I need to hand off that. I hadn't thought about that, but that's something I probably should entrust the higher level team members to do. And so I'm still unpacking it and still thinking of what I can hand off. Because at the end of the day, if I'm doing anything that another team member can do, then I'm taking away from time from what I really should be focused on.

Piet Van Waarde 16:00

Yeah. And people tend to, uh, as a leader, I can say this, you know, from personal experience, uh, we tend to underestimate the weight of leadership in and of itself without any of the other things that you're like that are part of the role, the speaking part or the study part, or like it's just the weight of leadership is a thing.

Amy O'Donnell 16:21

Yeah, it is a thing, especially in a glass house.

Piet Van Waarde 16:25

Yeah. All right. Now um I want to kind of touch on something that you've already hinted at, which is your organization has had a great legacy, a great reputation, and um you know, the I think you're following the founder, right? And so there was a lot of legacy that you had to protect and are protecting. And then you also have this like, but you're a new person, you're a different person, you have like we've already hinted at the fact we have different leadership styles. How have you balanced that?

Amy O'Donnell 17:00

I am walking that out still. What I do know is that God didn't put me here to be another Joe. That's my predecessor's name. He put me here to be me in this position and to bring to the organization who I am. And I don't have to be anybody but who I am. And what I need to figure out then is what does he want me to bring to the table? How am I supposed to communicate things? And so I just want to make sure that I honor that and find my voice and still honoring the way that we've decided to communicate things as a board. Uh, and we have a lot of board oversight. We have 19 board members, and uh we have committees that determine what public public policy areas we branch out into for communications, how we communicate on various things. So I have to stay to our style or brand, but within that, it's important that I use my voice that I help to cast vision.

Piet Van Waarde 17:57

Yeah.

Amy O'Donnell 17:58

And so, yeah, so it's just navigating all of those areas.

Piet Van Waarde 18:03

And it is, I'm sure, as complicated as I'm thinking it is.

Finding A Leadership Voice

Amy O'Donnell 18:08

To simplify it, I wrote a Christmas email today to schedule to go out next week. And I did a rally ad yesterday for our Texas Rally for Life coming up. And in each of those, I thought my default is to try to communicate the way that I was told to communicate in line with how my predecessor communicated his way of saying things. I often adopted and I tried to stick to that. Well, now I want to say things the way that I would communicate them. So I've been very intentional and I went the n the day before the ad recording and I changed the script because there were a couple of things in there that we've said the same way for years. We don't have to say them that way. So I took them out and said it differently. And with my email today, I thought, what do I want to say? And I wrote it out. And in the today's world, when we're trying to find our voice, one thing that we have to be careful of is it's so easy to use AI to write scripts and drafts and whatnot. That's great. But if you're trying to find your leadership voice and honor God with how He wants you to lead and say things, you're not going to find that necessarily through AI. So, yes, it can help you say things better, but it still needs to originate from within.

Piet Van Waarde 19:21

Yeah. Love that. And that's what I'm discovering too. I do a lot of writing, as you know. And um, I it's it is tempting to start off by saying, hey, just write me uh three paragraphs on X.

Amy O'Donnell 19:33

And I'm like, in 30 seconds, it'll be maybe five seconds.

Piet Van Waarde 19:36

Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, but then it's not me. Right. And then I feel inauthentic and you can feel it. And so then it's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll go first, do my hard work, then you can kind of edit it and refine it through AI. It's right. Great tool. But uh yeah, I think there's something valuable about saying it's gonna start my heart.

Amy O'Donnell 19:56

Yeah, that's where I am right now, just originate. There, trying not to use that as a crutch, but more of a help to just fine-tune.

Faith, Nonpartisanship, And Bridge‑Building

Piet Van Waarde 20:05

Yeah, absolutely. So you're also, uh, as you've referenced a couple times now, a person of faith. Uh that's a very important part of your life. And uh there is, especially in the pro-life movement, a lot of connection between churches and and your organization, but it's still, you know, you you want it not to be exclusively so. You want to reach out to people who may not share your faith persuasion. So, how do you find yourself um marrying the two, like being authentically following Christ and also leading this organization that's trying to appeal to a larger cross-section of the population?

Amy O'Donnell 20:43

Texas Alliance for Life is non-sectarian, nonpartisan. Non-sectarian means that we don't adhere to a specific faith denomination or background. And so our issue is life. And we keep it to the issue. That being said, everybody on our staff are people everybody on our staff are people of faith. And we have people from the Catholic background, we have people from non-denominational backgrounds, Baptist backgrounds. Um, but our commonality is the life issue. And so I keep it about that, but I also recognize now as a leader of the organization that we have amazing bases of support from the Catholic community. And I'd love to see more from the non-Catholic community, but I have a responsibility to really represent our organization in all of those realms. And so I go to Catholic Pro Life Council meetings at the Austin Diocese. I've reached out and have the Bishop of Austin doing our opening prayer, and the Knights of Columbus are going to lead our march, and they do phenomenal work to help raise money and buy ultrasounds for pregnancy centers, and they're very involved. And so it's an interesting area where I feel like I'm a bridge builder and I have built bridges or continue to walk across big bridges that have been built between our organization and people of different faiths.

Piet Van Waarde 22:12

Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And do you find that it's also so that's like on the macro level? Do you find that there are ways in which you your faith finds expression in them kind of day-to-day running of the office, the way people interact? Is there are there any ways in which that's relevant for you?

Office Culture And Public Messaging

Amy O'Donnell 22:30

I think because we all know we're people of faith, we're a little bit more open to say that we're praying. And a lot of our donors are people of faith and we're comfortable reaching out and saying we're praying. So it's very much a part of our vernacular. The time that I am more cautious of how I communicate is when I'm standing in front of an audience. Yeah. I have to remember I represent the organization and I'm not wearing my church hat or my faith hat, even though it's always a part of who I am. Of course. I'm just speaking on the life issue with people who may not be people of faith. And if they come to know God somehow through what we do, that's great. But if they want to stand with us and protect life and they're not people of faith, that's great too.

Piet Van Waarde 23:10

Nice.

Amy O'Donnell 23:11

Yeah.

Piet Van Waarde 23:12

So what's the payoff for you? Like, um, you know, you have an organization that's very busy with, you know, all the things that you do with policy and communication and fundraising. But when it, you know, the the whole um idea of like what's your why? And when you think about your reward and and why you do what you do, um what what does it boil down for for you?

People As The Why

Amy O'Donnell 23:38

People. My why is people. I love working with people. I love leading people. I love interacting with our donors and just getting to know them for who they are. And I'm so grateful that they're a part of our organization and they partner with us in big ways and sacrificial ways. And then, of course, when you just consider people, we work to protect life. And when I was writing our Christmas email today on behalf of myself and the organization, I was thinking the Christmas story is a story that just reminds us of the value of every life. Of course, Jesus came into the world as a baby, but we also look at the value of motherhood and the role that Mary played.

Piet Van Waarde 24:29

Yeah.

Amy O'Donnell 24:29

And we look at the shepherds and the wise men and uh the wise men and and the kings and just how everybody's role mattered and was mentioned in the Bible. Everybody is valuable, every role is important. And so when we look at the life issue, that's just what I consider when I look at it is every life is valuable and worthy of protection. Every life can make a lasting impact on the world. And I wonder how many lives are celebrating Christmas today because of what I do and what my organization has done for almost 40 years. I wonder how many women have their children around the Christmas table because they chose life, because we helped point them towards support in doing that. And that's that's that's a high value. You can't replace people.

Piet Van Waarde 25:19

I mean, yeah, I love it.

Amy O'Donnell 25:22

And the heartache of choosing otherwise is something that we also hope women get healing for. Coming from the church background, I know how many women, even in church, get abortions. And it's valuable in my role to have that experience because I've sat with women while they've cried and told their stories. And Jesus is our healer. There's nothing that we could ever do that could separate us from his love.

Piet Van Waarde 25:45

I think there's a Bible verse about that.

Amy O'Donnell 25:47

And even if women in church have gone the path of having an abortion, there is healing available for them. And so, even for that, we point towards abortion recovery classes. And it's our hope that women get that healing because we're pro-woman and we're pro-life. We want healthy women, we want healthy families, and we want babies to see the beauty of the world and to have an opportunity to make their mark.

Piet Van Waarde 26:16

Awesome. Well said. Um, all right. I want to ask one last question, and it's um you can kind of take this any way you want to take it, but um I'm curious, like in a season of transition when all these things are um moving, there's a lot of moving parts and new people and new responsibilities and so on, there's often a like core thing that God is teaching you in the midst of that move. And I'm wondering if there's something that you can tap into that says, like, this is like this is the core thing I'm learning right now that kind of is affecting and impacting all these other moving pieces. Is there one thing like that?

Healing, Compassion, And Care

Amy O'Donnell 26:57

I wouldn't necessarily say a core thing, but more of a core decision that I had to make in line with where God was taking me. And that's that I had to give myself permission to be more. And I knew that saying yes to this was a big yes. And it was a sacrificial yes, and it was a yes that would mean that I would lay down my life for this organization for however long I'm given the opportunity to lead it. And it's a yes that means that I'm gonna have to say no to a lot of things that I love and a lot of opportunities. And the more that this takes me around the state or other places to travel or for speaking engagements, the less I'm available to do things with my friends or even my family. It's a yes that means I can't necessarily sit on my couch on a Saturday if I have other things I need to do and just drink coffee for hours. And it's a yes that means that I have to let go of some measures of comfort that I really enjoy and run hard for as long as I'm called to run hard. Um, one of the biggest things I advocate for, and I've been able to help train the staff this direction is the rhythms of rest and run. And so while I recognize that it's a big yes and it's a sacrificial yes, I also recognize the importance of honoring a Sabbath. And if I do have anything on a Saturday, then I do my best over a weekend to make Sabbath time. But if I can take a Saturday and not work, I will. And I encourage my team to do the same. And then secondly, there is wisdom in the rhythms of grace and following the rhythms of grace. Run hard, rest hard.

Piet Van Waarde 28:39

Yeah.

Saying A Bigger Yes

Amy O'Donnell 28:40

God rested. And so, with that, as we head into the Christmas season, one of the things that I've told them is I want you to rest hard because when we come back in January, I expect you to be ready to run hard. And so we've talked about in our leadership time the rhythms of run and rest. When I do interviews with people that I consider bringing into the organization, I talk to them about the rhythms of run and rest and the importance of setting boundaries. And so that's a part of my role in growing people. It's a part of my role in stewarding my team. And there it's always a lot to do. But if we just run hard all the time, then we'll lose steam. And when you rest, you just recharge for all that's ahead.

Piet Van Waarde 29:24

Yeah, and and as important as work is, you need you need to be you know available for it and fresh for it. Exactly. So the only way that happens is if you're also honoring rest.

Amy O'Donnell 29:34

Right. That's right.

Piet Van Waarde 29:36

Well, this has been a great conversation, Amy. Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it, especially as busy as you.

Amy O'Donnell 29:44

I left work early. I'm usually leaving work right about now. Yeah, it's a pleasure, thank you.

Piet Van Waarde 29:50

Thank you, and thank you for joining us. We appreciate you being a part of our family, and uh join us again next time for another sidewalk conversation.