Hope For The Best, Pack A Plan B with Martin Zavala

We follow Martin Zavala’s path from sales to film & photography to ministry director through loss, healing, and a bold step into the unknown. The conversation is honest about grief, practical about risk, and hopeful about rebuilding a creative life with purpose.

• roots in church music and early film curiosity
• mentors, research, and practical skill building
• grief as a room you enter and leave
• faith tension between hope and uncertainty
• quitting safely with timelines and savings
• freelancing into steady clients and income
• moving from stage to tech and AI partnerships
• ministry beyond four walls and sustaining community
• full deployment as focused, joyful action
• asking for help and building momentum

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Transcript

Setting The Stage On Creativity

Piet Van Waarde 0:00

Welcome to another Sidewalk Conversation where we walk alongside people who I think are interesting people doing interesting things. I'm your host, Pete Van Ward, and today I want to introduce our guests by talking a bit about creativity. Now, I think creativity is one of those things that people can kind of feel an urge toward or a sensitivity about, but it's also one of those things that makes you feel self-conscious. Like, what if people don't like it? What if this doesn't work? And because you're taking a risk by being creative, most of us kind of tend to moderate or minimize what it is that we want to try and do. We don't want that like risk of being all the way out there. But I think that's actually part of what makes creativity so beautiful is when a person is willing to say, I'm willing to do the outlier thing. I'm willing to take the risk and maybe even make a bit of a fool of myself in order to explore a creative edge. And the friend that I have uh interviewing, that I'm going to be interviewing today, is exactly that kind of guy. He's an adventurer, he's somebody who likes the creative edge. He doesn't mind messing with the uh the external circumstances a bit to make sure that we're doing things maybe better and more creative or more effective or more impactful. And I've had the privilege of working with him on a number of my own personal projects. And so this is uh especially a meaningful interview for me because I've seen the benefit of his work, and I want you to hear the benefit of his thinking. So, without any further ado, let's get into it. Before I introduce my guest to you, I want to say a thank you to our sponsor. That's the Van Ward Foundation. And I want to say two things real quick about that. One, I want to say a thank you publicly to those people who are anonymous sponsors of the foundation. There are people who like to just be behind the scenes and they say, hey Pete, we just love what you're doing. We want to help. But there's another part of it that I don't talk about much, and that is the resources that the foundation makes available. And there's a new resource that I want to tell you about. It's called the Thematic Pocket Prayer Devotional. So I'm doing five of these this year. The first one is on connection, our connection to God and our connection to one another. And it's a focused nine-week study. And uh, this is going to be released in February. But for my own audience, I'm giving kind of an advanced preview. And if you want to advance order your copy, you can get that at a discounted price of$12. The list price is$15. And all you need to do is message me personally on whatever platform you're seeing this. So if you message me, I'll make sure a copy gets to you as soon as they arrive. All right. Now let me uh turn our attention to the conversation I'm having with my good friend Martin Savala. Good to see you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Good to see you, man. Thanks for having me.

Piet Van Waarde 3:24

Yeah, thank you for coming. I know you're so crazy busy. You got all kinds of creative projects you're working on, so thank you for time. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Of course.

Roots Of Music And Media

Piet Van Waarde 3:32

Um, I want to uh I sometimes do this, but I I haven't been doing it as much lately, but I I I really am curious for you. Um, you're a very creative guy, you're musical, you have uh video uh capacity, you're very creative with technology. Uh I want to go back and and see if we can't get to the roots of that. Like when did that love start? Is that something you were raised around? Is that something you kind of just personally discovered? Where'd that come from?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

You know, um I grew up in church pretty much. Like my parents, we always into church. So in that environment, I thought maybe I do like music and I'm gonna try out for worship team. And I was like maybe 10 or whatever. And you know, this music has always been a thing, you know. So um, but what's what's interesting is like no one in my immediate family plays music. Like really, okay. Yeah, it's it's it's uh so I could never pinpoint where I got the the love for music, you know. I mean, everyone loves music for you know, but some level, yeah. Yeah, but um I was I don't know that one off that just you know like to play instruments and stuff. So yeah, it was it started off pretty young, and then um my grandmother, I remember she was she goes, Hey, I think you um I think you have like this little gift of of music, so I'm gonna pay for your piano lessons and stuff. So that was 12, you know, and then you start growing up and then you start doing your other stuff and you know, like sports and different stuff, but I've always kept like the the music element in there, and that's kind of how it all like just started, you know. And then I just you know graduated from high school and like you know what I do like music, I'm gonna stay with music a little bit and then wait, I actually like film and movies. I've always been like a big movie guy, you know. Just and I wonder if I can maybe one day film something, I don't know. And I had those dreams and things and stuff, so I thought, well, I'll just buy a camera and see where that goes. So I um my uncle had uh given me an old canon, a film one. So I started taking photos and started liking that. And that was, I think I was maybe 15, 16 at that point, yeah. And then kind of took a break and then just you know, and then you know, got uh married and then did you know took a complete break with like creative stuff, and then you know, and then just life happens.

Piet Van Waarde 5:58

Yeah, yeah, I want to actually get into that, but before we do, uh I'm curious, like there are like I've watched people who say, hey, I love music and I I love video, I love technology, and and and they're decent at it, right? But like you've made a living doing all of those things. Like you you served as a music director at a church, you are now like in a business where you do videography. Like you have real skill in that. So that didn't just kind of at least I don't assume it didn't just happen. I mean, you really had to give yourself to that and and develop those skills.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, it it took it did take work and it took a lot of research. And and some people think like, well, you're just good at it. Well, I don't know. I I leaned on a lot of professionals, like people that were good at the craft and and asked a lot of questions, saw a lot of YouTube videos, and then just tried it and see if that was something that I really wanted to pursue. And and sometimes when people are like, Well, I think I can do that, you know, like, well, try try the research first and lean on people that are really good at the craft. Yeah, ask a lot of questions, and then you'll determine right away, oh, I'm I'm not good at this, you know, or you'll just say, Hey, you know what? I think I can make this happen. I think a lot of people have, you know, a hard time accepting that that's just not their thing. Yeah, you know, and even though it seems fun and cool and stuff, it's just not your thing. There's probably a million other things that you're good at, you know. But uh I was able to kind of lean into something that I knew uh had God had given me this gift, and I was like, you know what, I think I'm gonna just lean into that and see what that looks like. And and if it if I hate it later, then I I can just do something else. Or if I'm not good at it, at least I'll know early on that I'm not good at it.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

You know, so um, but yeah, I just I did that early on and leaned into some people that were good at the craft, good at photos, good at video, asked some questions, then started networking, you know. Right then, and then just uh the networking led me into getting people that were like even you know, did actual feature films and stuff, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna ask questions. And you know, so that's kind of where how I got into knowing, like, hey, that's something that I really want to do.

Piet Van Waarde 8:14

Yeah. I heard I heard somebody talk about it this way too. That I found this really helpful because I enjoy photography. Um, but I've I'm probably never gonna make a living out of it. Um, I have I've done some on the side here and there, but uh the the comment that was made that I found so helpful was you know, sometimes the things that you're kind of good at can just stay hobbies. Right. Like you you don't have to make everything that you do vocational.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Right.

When Grief Tests Faith

Piet Van Waarde 8:44

Like you can you can have a like I the analogy they used was golf. Like I love golf. I'm never gonna be a professional golfer, but just because I can ever be a professional golfer doesn't mean that I can enjoy golf. Right. And it's the same thing with so many of these things, whether it's music or video, but you you have really established yourself as an expert in these areas now. And uh I I truly respect it. We're gonna dive into it a little bit more here in a bit. But uh you talked about the detour. Uh so one of the things that you had to process um was that when you got married, your your wife contracted cancer. And so then you were a support person to uh a cancer warrior, and and that did not end well. And I I first of all just want to, again, be sensitive to the reality of that, and I only want you to feel like you can answer whatever you want to answer, it's very personal. Uh but one of the things that I think as Christians we tend to have to process when we're dealing with this kind of heartache is I know you prayed for her. You you know, people believed that she was going to get better and and healed and all that. And then when you're dealing with that not taking place, you have to kind of theologically figure out like, how am I going to process this and continue trusting God? Because I believe in healing, and maybe I've even seen healings, and then all of a sudden, now here in this situation, I haven't. Um, how did you like what what were some of the conclusions you came to?

The Room Of Grief Analogy

SPEAKER_00 10:18

You know, I think um grief and loss and that type of stuff, it it's everyone has a different journey. And and my journey specifically that helped me was when she was going through the the cancer and the treatments and just the different things. Um at the beginning of it, I remember clearly like, oh yeah, you know, prayer, healing, miracles. That's that's what I've always believed in. And then you get a disappointing um result, right? Like the results come back. Oh, like, okay, I was how can I pray different? How can I do this? And then just time after time, there was just a disappointing, you know, outcome. So I started like re thinking um and refocusing on something different. And I was like, well, why don't I expect the best outcome, but prepare for the worst too, you know? And I got a lot of like um this like not disagreements, but people didn't agree agree that I approached it that way. And and to me, I felt like no, I'm not I'm not expecting something negative, I'm expecting something good, but I also have to prepare my heart and mind, you know, for something bad. Because before I all I was doing was preparing for something good and expecting for something good, and when something bad would happen, it took a while to process that, process it, you know. And I feel like me changing that that you know mindset, it kind of helped me process it faster and you know, not be so disappointed longer. Yeah, yeah, you know, and then when she did pass away, then that's a whole other level of of grief and loss and things that you just have to process. And and I would love to even research more on this because I I think grieving and those emotions are so different for so many people. But for me, it was just like, you know, how did you um how did you go through that? Like, how do you do you still believe in God? And yeah, there's there's the ifs and why did this happen? And and I had to come to like a conclusion, like, I don't know. I just don't know. Yeah, we're not gonna know these mysteries and stuff. And I think the reason we don't know is because that's where hope and faith comes into play. If we take away hope and faith, I feel like it removes the the true grasp of what you know God is all about. Yeah, so um I had to just really process things differently. And uh, and I again I don't know why things happen. And I was told uh when she passed, like, hey, there's no wrong way to grieve, you know. And as years went on, I was like, I think there is. Really? I I think I think there not necessarily everyone grieves different and everyone has different stages, but and I don't want to diminish that, but I think I think there is a way that you you can lean one way and and it just takes you. It like grief and loss just like takes a hold of you. Yeah, and you can either lean into, hey, I'm gonna just use this for good, and I'm gonna love everyone and keep everyone close and do what I can and move on, and you lean that way, and it'll take you, and then you'll have your grieving process. And I I remember um a pastor told me one time, uh, you know, it's like walking into a room. You can stay in that room, but eventually you have to get out, you have to you have to leave the room, and so I just kind of took that to heart. I'm like, okay, I can if I feel down, because you you sometimes you just need to be sad, you just gotta be sad. So you can get in that room, be sad, but then you gotta you gotta get up and get out of that room. And and that's how I just took things, and I was just like, you know what, I have to figure out a way to just process this differently. Like, I think there is ways that you can do better in grieving because sometimes if you stay in that room, you make bad decisions, you know, you you get in the a very depressive state, you neglect friendships, you neglect things, and and I think that that did happen to me, you know. Like I th I felt like that happened where I was like in that room too long, you know. So if people ask me like, is there a way to grieve? I'm like, um, yeah, I mean, but there's I think you can grieve wrong, you know, like I think there's better ways that you can process your grieving and your loss, and and but it just it's up to you to kind of get up and go in that room and then leave the room. Yeah, you know that so that's that's how I process that, and that's how I uh I was able to kind of and it took a while, you know, even with like my my wife's father just passed away. So just seeing the that process on on the outside, you know, yeah, because you did get remarried. Yeah, I did get remarried, yes, yes. And so, you know, just and that was another thing too, is like, you know, you have to have a sense where like how can I move on? You know, because you do feel like I don't think I could ever remarry, I'm just gonna be here alone. All those thoughts just mess with your brain and stuff, and then and then you just think like, oh wait, no, it's life as beautiful and horrific as it is, it it goes on, you know. And uh so I think if you're able to once you process and once, and I do recommend getting help too, like getting some counseling or some therapy of some sort, because I think that was one thing that I I wish that I would done earlier is when you're in a place of like confusion and you're just not sure, I think reaching out to somebody who's yeah, because it's you get so overwhelmed by the emotional side of it, right?

Leaving The Room And Rekindling Work

Piet Van Waarde 15:51

It's just like overwhelming, yeah. Yeah. I want to go back to something you said early on in that uh little sharing. Um, you know, when you talk about like I want to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, and that you got some critique from that. Like, because I think one of the things that sometimes is said is like, well, if you're preparing for the worst, where's your faith, right? But I always come back to that story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo and the way that they approached the furnace. You know, they said to the king, you know, King, we we don't even have to think about this. We're not bowing down to your idol. Uh and the Lord will deliver us from this furnace. But then they added, but even if he doesn't, we're not gonna bow down. Right. And to me, I feel like that's always the like that's always the deal because we can only see so much and and we see imperfectly. And so, yes, let's hold on to the character of God as a God who can heal, that God can do good, we're gonna pray. But even if he doesn't come through in the way that we hope or think, I I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach. And I'm sorry you had to kind of deal with the naysayers on that front because Yeah, and I don't even blame them.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

It it just I just feel that everyone who tries to give you advice is hoping the best for you, and then they're at that moment thinking they're giving you the best advice at the time. Right. So I do think, and that's where I think discernment and praying for wisdom is super important because I did that, um, I got that advice early on in my life. I go, when when you lose somebody, pray for discernment, pray for wisdom. Yeah, and I applied that when I experienced that, you know, tragic loss. And in the things that happened after that, like I thought, oh wow, God was really protecting me here. You know, and so um, yeah, just pray for discernment and and making sure that whoever is giving you the advice is is in your best intentions, you know.

Freelance Beginnings And Church Roles

Piet Van Waarde 17:47

And sometimes people just say things because they think like a good friend would say something now, yeah, whether or not it's really all that helpful. Right, exactly. Exactly. I love that analogy though that uh you were given about walking into a room uh because it kind of gives you permission to process and it gives you a visual for what that process looks like. So I'm gonna go into this room and I'm going to give myself permission to feel whatever I need to feel in this room. Uh the way I put it, I would, I would get, you know, in my own journey, I would have various times when I got a bad report or things didn't go well. And I'd say, you know what, I'm just gonna give my permission myself permission to grieve this for a bit. Right. Because sometimes even as Christians, we feel like, well, we got to buck up, we're like people of faith, and you know, and it's like that's all right. It's like it's okay to be sad. Yeah, it's okay to be discouraged, it's okay to feel like, man, that was that was not what I expected. God, come on, right? Right. David does that in the Psalms all the time, right? So having that room, I I like that uh that visual of saying, Yeah, I'm gonna be in a room for a bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah, just walk out whenever you feel you can walk out. And that's what I did. And I felt that's what helped me process. Like, it was it all perfect? No, I mean there was times where I was just my mind just took over and thoughts and things and stuff, and you just have to like overpower that and pray more and things. But I think it like again, I I would like to really do some more research on on grief and loss because it's it's just such a confusing, and everyone processes different. So it's like you you can navigate. People still think, like, how do I navigate around this? Like it's just it's so interesting. Like, um, even when you're going through it, you're you're getting bad result after bad result, then you get a good result, and you get bad result. Like navigating around that is just like a whole other thing, and I and I feel like that's still processing loss. You yeah, for sure. You know, you're processing the loss of a good result, you know. And and I don't know. I I I would like to like just see what that looks like more because I feel like the There's something there that you why does why does uh it could bring the I always say it could bring the good or the or the bad in somebody. And I've seen it like I've I've seen it happen and and I just like wow, like that's interesting that they chose this, you know, and and it it affects you. And then even with this specific situation, I'm not gonna say it, but it's uh even now this person that chose this one lot, chose to go this one route, still doesn't talk to the family, still doesn't talk to people, still just chose to just you know go off and and deal with grief and loss in probably a really bad way. And that's why I feel like there is a better way to grieve, you know. It's not gonna be your your secret sauce and how to grieve, but it's gonna, it's definitely gonna help, you know, process things better.

Stepping Away From Ministry

Piet Van Waarde 20:53

Yeah, so because grief can also lead us to a very destructive place. And and I think that's how the enemy would love to use the loss is to say, you know, God's not who he said he is, your you know, your life is over, you know, all the lies that that he wants to insert during that grieving process. And and you do at some point have to confront the uh the hardship with truth. Like I think sometimes we're too quick to do that. Like we have a hardship and we want to move to truth right away. We're like, okay, God's good, God's gonna help me, you know. And there's a a time in in the middle, and like I think this is where everybody has to have their own personal processing. There's a time in the middle where you're dealing with the emotional side of things. Right. And so you have your loss, you have your emotions, and then you can get to truth. But if you stay stuck using your analogy in the room, then you're never gonna get healthy. Uh, and the way to get out of the room is to kind of come to the place of, all right, here's what's true, here's what I know, here's what I'm gonna put my trust in. Yeah.

How To Make A Risky Transition

SPEAKER_00 21:59

And that led me to also like rekindle some of the things that I had put on the back burner for a while because, you know, I was focused on, you know, getting her healthy and you know, all this treatments and stuff and doctor's appointments, and and then you just kind of forget, you know, not in a bad way, you just kind of just focus your focus just changes. And then once you leave the room, um, you're able to now be like, hey, you know what, maybe it's time to rekindle that that uh passion, that hobby, or whatever that looks like. And and that's what I did. I and I had a I had a job at one time at that time, and um and I still talked to some of those uh old coworkers, and um, and I remember just like, hey, I'm gonna just try making a living out of what I love to do as a hobby. And I resigned that day. And wow. Yeah. So and as we were talking earlier about just the umbi risk taking and stuff, and and I remember now that think about it, as it's kind of a crazy thing to do. I wouldn't, I don't know if I recommend that for other people, but for me, I I felt like, you know what, I think it's time for me to just, you know, step out in faith and see what that looks like. And and then I just didn't look back since then, you know, and love that.

Piet Van Waarde 23:12

Yeah. I I think there I it makes sense to me because I think that when you're dealing with such a like huge ball of emotion, yeah, it just naturally draws your attention to it. Oh yeah. But if you have this other thing that requires a lot of attention as well, like I'm gonna take the leap, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this new adventure, it kind of has it gives you a positive distraction right from this ball of emotion that you've been working through for so long. Yeah. It's so you you you went uh you took your talent, uh, and did you go right from that job to working at a church?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

No, I did um I just started freelancing. Okay. Yeah, so there there was zero safety net for sure. And I didn't even know what I was stepping into. I learned a lot of things the hard way. Um and I just thought I can do this, I can do this, I can do this because I love it. I think I can do this. And then I did some that I did that for a few years, and then And what was that? Uh just videography and photography, um, editing, things like that. And that's I just started networking, and there was some uh we call them gigs, you know, gigs that you would help out with other, you know, uh fellow filmmakers and stuff. And and um I was attending church at Shoreline, so I thought I maybe I could volunteer some help here and stuff, and then got involved with the music aspect there first, you know, and and that was the worship part, and then um and then that led into what can you do other stuff? Yeah, I can do videos and stuff, really? Oh yeah, okay. So then that led into a part-time job, and then eventually a full-time gig, and then you know, more into leadership roles after that. And so yeah, it was it was an interesting journey for sure.

Piet Van Waarde 25:01

Now, you did the very counterintuitive thing after that. So you were talking before we went on the air, like a lot of times people like have this dream, hope, vision, passion. Like, okay, I I love music. I'm gonna use my music to you know lead people to God, and then I'm gonna use my videog videography to kind of capture essence the essence of what it means, it looks like, you know, creativity, all that stuff. And so you had you you got to the pinnacle. You were like the guy on stage and at a big church and lights and all that. And you said at some point, uh I want to do something different. Yeah.

Timelines, Savings, And Humility

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Um again. And and you know, you it's it's it's multi-layered for sure. But I think a lot of it was like, you know, uh, I wanted at that point I had a you know, a family, uh, had a daughter, and I was like, I working in, I mean, you know, working in ministry is hard. It's takes a lot out of you. And I don't know, I I my heart wasn't ready for that. Um, I wanted to do more with the family, you know, and um not that you say I don't want to diminish anyone else's journey when they're in ministry, but like for me personally, it was it was hard, you know, I couldn't navigate that right. So um I had to make a decision and obviously with the the help of my spouse, you know, hey, how what do you think? And she's like, you know what, yeah, I think I think we should try this out. And and what's interesting enough is our transition led into something else that had nothing to do with we're doing at the church. It was more in we did some content stuff, but it's more on the tech space and the marketing space and stuff. And it was interesting to see that um I was able to untap a couple of other things that I liked that I didn't know I liked. I was like, oh wow, this is great. I really like this stuff. It's fun for me, and it was different. And I'm able to spend more time at home. And again, um, it's a big risk because again, we we made this leap and and there was no like usually when you make a transition, you have a uh safety net, you have a job and you have security and you have this. We didn't. We just I had one gig and that was it. And I was like, let's just see what this does, you know?

Piet Van Waarde 27:24

Now I can we dissect the decision a little bit because um I think like I'm imagining people listening to this might find themselves maybe dealing with some of the same questions. Like they're in a place, it's safe, they have all the things they need, but it's not it, right? They they feel like there's something else that they need to do. Um but of course there's all kinds of risk associated with that new thing, right? And it may not work. And then if you have a family, it's also even more complicated. So walk me through the progression. So you're in this situation and you're starting to feel unsettled, like this isn't, I I just don't think this is something I can sustain. Right. Maybe you're having conversations with your wife and she's like, hey, come on, get more at home, be nice, you know, all that stuff. So you're you're feeling the un the restlessness and the settledness. And you have this other idea, like, how do you move from this to that? Like, what were some of the steps in between?

Momentum, Clients, And Sustainability

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I mean again, I keep using the word multi-layer because also it was because we wanted to be in ministry too. Like, and the one of the biggest fears was like, oh wow, like we're gonna lose that ministry feel of like reaching out to people and being there for people. And but then I was like, wait, I think for me, it was like once I made the transition, I I was able to think in my head, like, I can still do ministry outside the four walls, too. So that helped me kind of navigate that part of it. Then the the job part of it was, yeah, obviously the biggest, you know, um concern is finances, right? That's everyone's biggest concern. And and I was like, well, I don't know. How are we gonna know if it's gonna be a bad decision? So then I had to make another decision. If it doesn't work, then I have to eat a piece of humble pie and go get a regular Joe Schmoe job, whether that's at H E B, at Target, I meant to Target, and doesn't matter, at least some of the bills get paid, you know, mortgage will get paid, and we can, you know, go from there. So I had to like train my mind to be like, hey, if it doesn't work, then you gotta do this. Yeah, you have to be willing. You have to be willing. You you got you so you give yourself I gave myself a timeline like here's 30 days, which isn't much, it goes like this, and and see where that goes, see how how much you're you're spending money on and see where that goes and see how what your heart feels because if you're getting stressed out and you're not happy, then obviously it's probably not the good decision. Yeah, so that's what I did.

Piet Van Waarde 30:09

I just I did you have any money in savings that you could kind of live on for a little bit?

Full Deployment And Focus

Tech, AI, And New Partnerships

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, we did. So we uh it wasn't a lot, but we had some money to last us at least for you know the couple of months of just hey, this is just for the couple of months, right? And giving myself 30 days though. And if I don't see any type of return or revenue coming in in 30 days, then uh, or at least expect it for the next month, then I um well we'll I'll find another alternative and you know, and I'll start. And I was actually applying for jobs too. So if it did not work again, we go back to like expect the best, but prepare for the worst. Yeah, I was still applying for jobs. So um I had a few interviews and things, and some like, hey, that's actually pretty good. I don't know if I want to work like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, so there was still, you know, preparation, you know. I I didn't just like all right, if it happens, it happens and flip a coin and let's do it. No, there was still some there were some savings, and then there was also uh a deadline that I gave myself. And if I didn't see something, you know, then uh obviously it was a poor decision. Yeah, maybe um an emotional driven decision that I needed to spend more prayer on, and and uh but you know, thank God that it was a good decision, and I was able to really lean into it, and then I I was like, hey, I can do this. This is actually really fun, and I and I can do this, and then I just I ended up getting a client, and then I got two clients, and I got three clients, and then and then I was like, Oh wow, like hey, you don't have to work, yeah, you can actually hang out with a baby and just chill for a little bit too. And she's like, You're not gonna ask me twice, you know. So, and so she took a little break too, and and you know, she does some side gigs and does some fun coaching gigs and stuff now, and but it was nice to finally be able to be like, hey, this is I can do this. This is sustainable, this is sustainable, yeah. And uh, and it's not like that for everybody. I think people's situations are different, but I think sometimes people just have to try it. You're never gonna know until you just try it. Right. Have some plans in place, prepare for the worst, but also just try it. If you feel like you're just not happy and you're not, and that not that I wasn't happy, there was just it again, there's just a lot, but um, I just felt like there was more, you know, and and not necessarily with money, just more just in general. Like, yeah, hey, like I believe you we have all of us have untapped talent and gifts, and I think if we're able to look to see what those are, and then if you're like, hey, I think this is fun, and I could actually use some of my old stuff and here, and yeah, and then you just start, you know, making it happen. Yeah, yeah, starts making it happen, and then and then you're just having a good time at the same time. And don't get me wrong, it's not perfect because there's still some stress, but um, but I am able to have fun and this and in a long time, uh, it's been a while since I was able, even uh my wife Aina's like, you seem really happy at this. And I go, I really am.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

I go, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

And uh and I feel like I'm good at it too. Like I feel like I'm really good at this. Uh so um, yeah, there's seasons again. There's seasons for this and seasons for that, and and God has a plan for what this is gonna look like for you. So that's what I did.

Redefining Ministry And Community

Piet Van Waarde 33:38

Love it. You know, one of the phrases that's been in my mind about uh because I find myself in in a somewhat similar situation. So I have uh this five to six year battle with cancer. I'm now 18 months cancer free, and I've been experimenting with a couple of different things, and the the word that keeps coming back to me is Pete, it's time to be fully dis deployed. Like that's good. Uh you've been touching on different things that all have value, but this next year, the word I feel like God's given me for the year is full deployment. Like, oh wow, be fully deployed in whatever it is that you you have yet to contribute. And and that makes me really excited, you know, to think about like uh I have these various things that I've done, but to kind of center it in, be fully deployed, using all my gifts and uh making the biggest contribution I can make, it's like that's so energizing for me right now.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

I like that a lot. I'm gonna steal that. I really like that. That's cool.

Piet Van Waarde 34:42

Yeah. So uh what what are you doing now? Like as as in your professional life, what what uh keeps you busy?

Lessons: Time, Action, Asking For Help

SPEAKER_00 34:50

So right now, um it kind of morphed into a couple of things. It started off with some creative things, and then that turned into a creative consulting more on like uh dealership world, some other retail clients and stuff, and and that did really well. Um and then then I had some ideas. I'm like, I wonder if I can how do I make how do I replicate myself without having to spend so much money, right? And got with some friends who were in the tech space and um presented some ideas and that kind of morphed into a business idea. And then we tried that out and it seemed to work really good. And then then that morphed into another opportunity with another tech company that they were working with, something that we were interested in, and we just partnered up. And it has to do with some AI stuff and some things, but it's uh it's really it's it it was really awesome to see what that kind of how it all just kind of married together. And now I have that, you know, that's a business that we're just you know, we have a few partners now and we're having some clients and onboarding and all that fun stuff, but a lot of meetings, but um it's it it's very um it's fun, you know, and it's it's a it was a really cool way to kind of like really take a deep breath and almost like, oh okay, I I I like the I I'm glad that I didn't make a poor decision, you know. Um you know, because the the transition was hard, you know. It was uh and I I don't I think even um with our pastors and stuff, they they weren't aware that we were thinking that, you know, and that we were uh it was kind of like lingering in the back and you know, uh, and then it was I think God just said, hey, it's time. Uh yeah, it's time to kind of just try something different. I have something planned for you. So um, and then that's what I do now. I just it's in the tech space now with creative consulting, and it's really it's it's it's different, but not in a weird way. But um, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to do that.

Piet Van Waarde 36:53

It sounds like it's pulling all the threads of your life together in a way that's uh yeah, and then uh right now the the it kind of switched a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

So now my hobbies are music, you know. My daughter loves music, and so I've kind of now I'm like playing music with her, you know, and and uh and so I'm not on stage. But if someone asked me, like, yeah, I just I was at a wedding not too long ago and somebody asked me to have sing and play, and like, yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, let's do that, it'd be fun. And I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't been in front of a microphone in like almost two years. What the heck? And so it yeah, it was interesting, and I was like, that's I was like, okay, wow, you know, and people ask me all the time, like, do you miss it? And I go, I miss the um the fellowship part of it, like the the the interacting and and creating stuff out of nothing. And you know, uh, do I miss being on stage? I don't. That's something that people are always shocked when I say that, but I really don't miss being on stage. I I I just miss the the people, you know. But then when I say that, I'm like, well, every time I feel like I'm missing people, I make the phone calls, you know. So I I still I still am in contact with a lot of like my my tech friends and worship friends and stuff. So I think um I think there's ways that you can still be part of a lot of times when you specifically in in ministry and in church, like it and it's by accident, I don't think it's intentional. I think a lot of times people just they're living their life, you're living your life, and you just kind of part ways and don't see each other for years. And um, I'm trying my real hardest to not do that. I feel like if anything, I'm gonna make the effort because I have the time too, you know. So I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna reach out and I'm gonna have a cookout, I'm gonna do this, I'll meet you for coffee, I'll meet you for a beer, I don't know, whatever you want. Yeah, you know, so um I've I felt and I think I could do better, but I feel like I've done an okay job of like really keeping track of, you know, my my church family.

Keep Moving And Closing Blessing

Piet Van Waarde 39:03

Awesome. Yeah, if you had to uh this would be my last question. I was just curious, if you had to summarize maybe some of the key lessons of this last season, things that you've kind of drawn out as maybe life principles or life lessons that you're gonna kind of hold on to no matter what your future holds, what would they be?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Um, one thing that I've noticed that, and it's gonna sound cliche, but it but it's gonna it's time flies. And before you know it, a month has gone by, two months have gone by, and you're just gonna be like, Oh, I should have done this, I should have done that, I should have done this. And I I feel like now what I've kind of just honed in on is like you said, full deployment. You know, I think that's a really good statement for 2026 is like really hone in on it and do it. Like just go and have fun with it at the same time. And if not having fun then don't do it like it's just it's so simple and people think it's more complicated because there's may there might be finances involved but again expect the best prepare for the worst but also go and just do it and that was what I've learned is I had I had some ideas and I didn't even know where to start. I just started asking people that I felt that were good in that space and then they just you just start moving around and and and figuring it out and then eventually you just figure it out. Yeah and it happens but you're not going to figure it out just kind of just thinking about it and lingering on your thought and you know uh asking for help is a big big key like and and don't you find that like especially if people have been successful in a certain space and and they have some sense that you might have some skill in this people want to help.

Piet Van Waarde 40:53

Like they remember when it was like it was hard for them. Yeah they didn't and then somebody took an interest in their life and said hey yeah I'll I'll I'll I'll open the door for you I'll make a call or I'll teach you something.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

It's surprisingly you you're surprised on how like wow should I pay them? I'm not sure like it they're just so like like I would they it's almost like if they were waiting for a phone call to help. You know so yeah if if if you're if I'm taking away for something uh it's that's that you know it's it's asking for the help and then just doing it. And um you'd be surprised how much how many people out there that are just willing to you know give some advice. You know actually don't talk to this person. Talk to that person. That person might know something.

Piet Van Waarde 41:34

Yeah yeah yeah you know and that happened a lot too so and and you can get a lot of information for a cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah. You know hey can I take you out for coffee? I have a question. Yeah you can for sure and a lot of mine was um I I didn't have a lot of phone numbers so I would reach out like if on Instagram or you know Facebook and yeah it was great hearing from you and love to meet you for a cup of coffee or whatever. And that's all just it's it's that easy. Yeah.

Piet Van Waarde 42:02

You know the other thing that you're pointing to that I've it's it's interesting when I do these conversations there are some recurring themes that I continue to hear from people and and you've reminded me of something I've heard like several times in the last couple interviews and that is that um you know God can steer a moving car. Like if you're parked and you're waiting for something to happen it's probably not going to be clear if you just stay still but if you take a step and you start moving like one one of the things I heard you say was like, you know, as I started moving like okay this opened up or I made this really oh I can like this you know like the movement started and as you were moving clarity came. Yeah. And I think it's so important. Like you got to be willing to take the step you got to be willing to make a move. And uh and when you do you'll be surprised perhaps by how things become clearer as you go.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Yeah keep moving and then you'll be surprised also it's like yeah I I shouldn't go that route or I should say this route you know and and but you're not gonna know until you do it. Yeah until you step forward and do it. So that was that's what I did in these last two years and it's been great and and I'm not gonna sit here and say like oh it was perfect. Everything was just yeah you know sunshine and rainbow is like my wife says but um no it's it's really not it was um it was it there's some difficult parts you know but but uh but just keep going keep moving yeah don't give up don't give up yeah well Martin this has been great thank you brother appreciate you uh being a part of this and taking time to do it like yeah love you and thank you for joining us for another sidewalk conversation please join us next week with another interesting guest and God bless you