Joey Li talks to Yiuwin Tsang about doing good and feeling good, fostering human to human connection, and growing a sustainable purpose-driven business.
Joey is the co-founder and CEO of the social enterprise, Leiho. Leiho is a lifestyle brand whose mission is to provide vulnerable communities with the basic items they need like clean clothes, food and water. Every purchase of a Leiho product helps fund the essentials the team donates to charities and projects around London. Since launching in December 2019, they’ve donated over 10,000 items to over 37 different charities. This is just the beginning.
Joey Li talks to Yiuwin Tsang about doing good and feeling good, fostering human to human connection, and growing a sustainable purpose-driven business.
Joey is the co-founder and CEO of the social enterprise, Leiho. Leiho is a lifestyle brand whose mission is to provide vulnerable communities with the basic items they need like clean clothes, food and water. Every purchase of a Leiho product helps fund the essentials the team donates to charities and projects around London. Since launching in December 2019, they’ve donated over 10,000 items to over 37 different charities. This is just the beginning.
I'm your host Yiuwin Tsang. This episode, I'm joined by Joey Li. Joey is a Co-Founder and CEO of the social enterprise Leiho. Leiho is a lifestyle brand whose mission is to provide vulnerable communities with the basic items they need, like clean clothes, food and water, every purchase of a Leho product helps fund the essentials, the team donates to charities and projects around London. Since launching in December, 2019, they've donated over 10,000 items to over 37 different charities. And this is just the beginning.
Yiuwin Tsang:Joey, tell me why you think it's important for founders and business leaders to engage and support their local communities?
Joey Li:A couple of years ago I did this study about how a lot of brands and huge organisations have a huge impact on consumer identities. Right? So brands have a lot of power in shaping culture and identity. So to be able to support these local communities, you're not only making a good difference, but you're also encouraging a lot of these people in society and your consumers and staff to kind of do the same. I think also founders have so much creativity and freedom with decision making so to be able to put it towards purpose over profits is quite a big thing and it's quite exciting. And I feel like a lot of consumers are now demanding brands that are giving back, purposeful brands as well. So to be able to support local communities, whether it's people in need or different kind of social issues is really important because one, you're also bringing more awareness to that front and also educating a lot of consumers about it and to be able to be a brand that will supervise a lot of human to human connection, makes your brand more real. And it also builds a lot of trust for brands. I think if you don't help support local communities, and you don't really get involved in helping people in need, you do risk becoming irrelevant in the future cause again the future is progressing more towards purposeful brands
Yiuwin Tsang:A hundred percent and I think we see that in the wider market as well. I feel like consumers are more discerning than perhaps they ever have been and I do wonder if there's been a bit of a shift in attitudes and come in more mainstream and part of this, I think coming back to that point about local communities, as well, I feel like there's been a period where parts of society, parts of the community, have felt that they've been left behind, felt perhaps a little bit disengaged. And perhaps part of the effect of that has been this kickback and this recognition, that purpose is so important. I just want to pick up on your answers just then Joey, about having this connection and how important it is. With Leiho, tell us about that connection with community and why it's so important to you and your team?
Joey Li:We have two different kinds of connections. One would be our community, so the people who support Leiho, who buy from Leiho and I think one building relationship with them. We teach them a lot about homelessness and about sustainability and we teach as we learn. We have that open conversation where we're learning from them and they're learning from us. So it's it's like a nice small business to consumer relationship and then in terms of the people that we help, so we help a lot of people experiencing homelessness in London specifically, and we work closely with a lot of charities and projects. That kind of connection is very different because we're working directly with a lot of vulnerable people, which means that as we're kind of developing the business, as we're communicating with our consumers, we're constantly thinking about how we can really make impact in their lives or how we can really make sure that our business isn't just selling one thing and donating another, it's actually creating impact and making a difference in these people's lives. The human to human connection a huge part of it is understanding, being really kind of empathetic towards both consumers and the people that we're helping and making sure that there is that kind of transparency where people can see the work that we're doing, making them feel involved in the change that they're making as well. Also making sure that again, we're actually just making some change and not just donating a pair of socks to someone in need. We're actually working directly with these people and understanding constantly what it is we can do to either better our help for them or how our community can help as well. So again, the kind of communication and understanding levels are huge to foster this human to human connection.
Yiuwin Tsang:I do love that phrase human to human connection because it works on so many different levels. When I was speaking with Liv Sibony, the last interview that we did, we talked a little bit about avoiding this Saviour complex, as you say, just buying a pair of socks or donating some clothes or painting a community centre or something, these kind of throwing a piece of tissue on the fire burn brightly, but very, very quickly gone. We need to try and avoid that and what you say talks to the fact that we have to have this transparency, this human to human connection so that we can see where it is or we can make impact and what we can adjust or change in our approach to make sure that we continue to provide and to continue to make a difference.
Joey Li:Yeah, of course. And I think also when you're engaging with community on like a regular basis, again, like I said before, brands have a lot of power in influencing and shaping identities and cultures. You're almost leading followers to do the same, so a lot of people that witness us helping people experiencing homelessness, donating the essentials or working with them want to get involved and they're always constantly asking how can I get more involved? Next time you go out can we come with...? So it's almost that domino effect of kindness that we always hear about. It's really implementing that into brands and businesses to really make sure that, again, that kind of human to human connection is so transparent and visible that people almost replicate that in their own lives, whether they're connected to the brand or not.
Yiuwin Tsang:What do you think are the challenges that you've had to face or that founders will face when they look to engage and support that local community
Joey Li:The most obvious one, if we were to pick Leiho as an example, then, a normal retail business that doesn't give back or isn't sustainable has costs that are significantly lower than ours, because for us a percentage of profits then goes towards helping get essentials for people experiencing homelessness and then on top of that the eco-friendly materials. So I think it is quite costly to be a, let's say social enterprise or brand that's giving back to local communities, but you can also get around that in a smart way and it's, again, dependent on how innovative and creative you are. I think for us the biggest challenges is also that social enterprises have so much stigma around their survival. You hear shocking statistics of only 40% of social entreprises survive their first year, or only 50% survive their fifth year, so that, as a founder wanting to give back, is quite hard to hear because you don't want your business to fail. I think that then sometimes could put people off wanting to make impact, but actually that shouldn't be the case and also that makes no sense at all. You know, a brand that actually wants to help people in need might not have the same survival rate as a brand who just doesn't care about anyone and just wants to make sales. It just honestly baffles me, but I guess those are one of the key challenges of helping local communities but you can get around with that. And I think now hopefully that's starting to change, so that's a positive as well. I feel like another thing is, as you work with a lot of local communities, we constantly want, because we're dealing a lot with the people that we're helping. We want to help more, after each outreach that we do we want to do more, so that's not necessarily a challenge, but it's more that it's sometimes a little bit tricky having a balance between running the actual business and being a founder and then also trying to make impact.
Yiuwin Tsang:Just to unpack that a little bit, Joey, what you're saying is one of the key challenges is the commercial and the financial sustainability of social enterprises in the main, and as statistics that you've seen, which looks pretty harrowing for people who are interested in starting up a social enterprise in that sense, but in my mind, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but a social enterprise isn't a million miles apart from a normal business in the sense that there has to be sustainability, there has to be commercial acumen. There has to be sensible financial planning. There has to be all the things that make a good business apply still in social enterprise, so it feels a bit of a smokescreen in many senses. As you say, that, these statistics whilst they're bearing out shouldn't be a reason for that. Is that fair to say?
Joey Li:Yeah, of course, and, it's exactly what you're saying, but I think the biggest challenge is again, finding that balance of, 'I really want to make impact.' Also, 'I need to keep this business sustainable.' And I think that's a huge challenge, but it's amazing because there's so many businesses and brands that have nailed it. But I think that's initially where the statistic comes from, because I was always wondering how does a brand that gives back and helps people in need that does good, why is their survival rate so low and that's changing now. But I think that's also a huge challenge for a lot of businesses that give back so, being able to make sure that, okay, I'm also building this business, all the kinds of financial growth and all of that, but at the same time, I want to be growing my impact too. I think, again, it's a huge challenge, but it's an exciting challenge. So, it's not necessarily a challenge that anyone should be scared of. It's exciting to be able to make sure that you are making impact and also growing a business. And it's quite refreshing to see that growth as a founder. Again, it's a challenge, but it's also an exciting challenge that you're like, yeah, I can do this.
Yiuwin Tsang:I've got so much admiration for people like yourself who face those challenges now because I do feel that there's been a shift in the public psyche, it's more mainstream, you have to be purpose driven and it works on so many different levels as well, from a talent attraction perspective, lots of people that are coming through joining the workforce. They want to work for businesses that are purpose driven that have kind of purpose outputs as well. So from an attracting talent perspective, it means that there's a more of a level playing field. You might not have the deepest pockets to have the biggest salaries, but being purpose led and purpose driven can give you an advantage over perhaps, other organisations out there that don't suit the workforce that is coming through. That side of things I think, as you say, is really positive and it is a challenge. Definitely. But starting a business is a challenge and not without its own risks. The other part of your answer was that part around as a founder. Did you mean using your time effectively on the commercial development and the business sustainability side of your role, and then the actual creation of impact part of your role as well, is that a time judgment for you, or what do you mean when you say it's that balance?
Joey Li:To be honest, I think this applies more towards the sustainability side of our business, when it comes to business opportunities or partnerships or whatever it is, it's always, sometimes we face the question of, okay, we can either make a lot of money from this project, but it goes against the impact we're trying to make, or it goes against, the sustainability side of our business. Or, do we miss this opportunity and stick, share value? So I think it's more of that, but that's also a conversation for another time, but again, they're exciting challenges to have, but you just don't really get them in a normal business, because you're constantly thinking about your impact and your values as a brand and I feel like if you're a purpose driven brand, a lot of your business decisions revolves around the purpose that you're trying to make, whether it's a short term purposeful goals that then fulfill your longterm vision. It's still, as you're growing the business, a little bit challenging to understand what's right, what's wrong. And that applies to any Founder in small business, as I think decision making itself is quite challenging because you don't have someone who's in a position higher than you to be, this is what you need to do, go get it done. Do this, but I could also do this, but, it's just one of those things. So again, I think the impact side is pretty exciting, but it's hard to make sure that, okay, you're constantly having to question whether or not this is going to make true impact, or if it's just going to be a business growth things. I think that's the key challenge for any purpose for profit business.
Yiuwin Tsang:A hundred percent. We're doing a bit of work with a charitable foundation, and it was quite interesting because it really opened my eyes to the fact that it's built into their articles of association in the sense of the purpose of the business is to create impact in these areas and for them, it was community, opportunities and all these really lovely things, but their decisions have to contribute towards that goal. That's how they were set up as a charitable foundation, but with a lot of commercial organisations out there, normal businesses that are out there and they're becoming more and more purpose led. As I mentioned at the beginning, maybe not purpose outputs, but they're purpose led and the purposes is at the core of the decisions that they make, but they face exactly the same quandary that you just described then in the sense that they could go against their values, they could go against their principles and what the purpose is, and they could take a load of money from an oil company or a tobacco company, or, whatever it might be that kind of bends it. I suppose that's the core of the challenge that you face there is that almost every day, I imagine there are things that will test how much you will adhere to the values on purpose part of your business, and then reconcile how you're able to reconcile that with the commercial opportunities that might present themselves, all that sustainability part. What do you do when that comes you. How do you process that? How do you make those decisions, Joey?
Joey Li:I'm lucky I have a co-founder. I can have these kinds of conversations with but also I always say if you need help, ask for it, so we ask advisors and mentors, we just ask around, we have no idea because again, it can get quite lonely when you have to make these decisions. But at the end of the day they're both my co-founder and I's decisions to make, so as much as we ask for help and we get people's advice, we make that final decision and it's always with good heart. So I think we have to remind ourselves of our values. And if you're a true purpose led, or purpose driven founder, then you will end up making the right decision. We have had a couple of opportunities where we're like this would be amazing, but it's one of those things where it's not necessarily a missed opportunity. It's just making the right decision for where you see yourself in 5, 10, 15 years. So it's always the right decision. It's hard to sacrifice sometimes, but at the same time it's great to have that impact to weigh things down a little bit sometimes remind you why you started the business or why you're doing what you're doing.
Yiuwin Tsang:There's also that piece around integrity, as you said, you've kind of built your business, you've built this ethos, you build these values and you've got to stand behind them really, haven't you, on a number of different levels. How big is Leiho now in terms of head count, how many people have you got on your team? So full-time it's me and my co-founder still and we have an amazing Kickstarter part-time and she runs our social, marketing and content. So, it's just three of us working, but we also have had a fair few volunteers just wanting to work for Leiho aside from their full-time job, just dedicating, whether it's a couple of hours, to help with marketing or campaigns and we have, two amazing volunteers. As a small business, it's almost easier having a small team because you do get just a lot more done. We're sticking to the comfortable size now for what we can manage and then hopefully grow the team in the next year or two. That makes a huge amount of sense. To your point about sticking with your principles and thinking about that longer term part if something comes along where there's a deal on the table, and you've got to be really strong to turn it down, because it doesn't align with your values, it doesn't align with the impact that you're trying to do it would undermine that social contract that you have with your team if you build the team or have them employed, but I would argue even more so with your volunteer network and the people who willingly give up their time to you, to your cause, for you to undermine that would cause so much damage, wouldn't it, and that would be really difficult to bring them along on that journey with you, which brings me onto my next question around the work that you do. How important you feel it is and bringing your team along with you as a founder, and to your point about bringing on the volunteers, I would argue that's even harder. People that you pay to come to work, they're paid to do their bit. You're effectively rewarding them for their time or buying their time and their capability when it comes to a volunteer network. You've said that you've got a few volunteers and they sound amazing. Wow. Yeah. How important is it bringing those folks along? I guess it's absolutely critical, from a volunteer perspective, but talk us through a little bit your thinking around bringing the team on.
Joey Li:Yeah, of course, so to begin we've had about eight different volunteers now working between four to six months. During lockdown, it was all kind of virtual and actually funny enough, these two volunteers are still virtual, so they have full-time jobs, but they're not in London, but the ones that have been in London and I'll get back to the virtual ones in a bit. So the ones that have been in London, we've taken them out for some of the projects, some of the outreach and we always say when you do good, you feel good. So that's the kind of ethos of our brand. And you will see that throughout our messaging, our website but it was why we started Leiho in the first place and I think when volunteers or people that work with us are satisfied with our company values or culture, and they share the same values and culture then they are typically more productive in terms of the ideas that they give us or their involvement with campaigns or, again, they're retention. We've had some volunteers that have been with us for about almost a year now, completely unpaid, which is something that we're trying to work on as well, because we're still a small business bootstrapping, but it's just one of those things where it's nice to see people stick around because of the ethos of the business. But also when we first started, people were emailing us and people were joining Leiho and wanting to work with us because of the ethos of the brand and the values we had that were very much aligned to that. So it was almost like they didn't care about what the role was. They just wanted to be involved with the brand, which says a lot about how the giving back side of your business is so important for your employees to see directly. And with our virtual intern just because we can't take them to outreaches we still give them impact reports or impact updates. Sometimes tell them confidential projects that we be working on with vulnerable people because they're part of the team. So it's one of those things and then also involvement with the consumer side of making sure that we're telling the story right. Making sure that we're also getting consumers and our community involved in the giving back side. So they're very much on the business building, giving side. Obviously, they can't come out with us for outreach, but they can also help us develop campaigns around how we can raise awareness for X, Y, Z, or for different projects. So I think it's always an eye-opening reality to be able to get them involved in the whole backend of helping people experiencing homelessness. And I think it also adds a lot of meaning to their life and to their work. To give you an example, one of our volunteers after working with Leiho she now puts basic essentials in the boot of her car, whether it's winter warm essentials, like socks and gloves, beanies or just like a cereal bowl, whatever it is, she puts it in the boot of her car. So when she drives to work and she sees people, she can drop it off, so that's also really nice to hear that we never told her to do that. She's just learnt that from working with Leiho and it's just given her this amazing idea, which now I do myself.
Yiuwin Tsang:That's incredible. Story. That is a story which really tells us about how the experience of working with you, with the team, has changed her behavior and what she does to make an impact and done it in such a way that has very little impact, I imagine, on her as a person, as an individual, but has a massive impact in terms of who it is that she goes on to help. I think you've kind of touched on this briefly, but we talk a huge amount about culture and how important it is to put this sense of culture into your organisation and the reality is that it isnt easy to do at the best of times, lots of companies get it wrong. During pandemic, during lockdown, and you mentioned you've got some people that are virtual as well, it's even harder when you've got this kind of dispersed workforce, what are your thoughts around involving them in some of the projects and initiatives you're working on. And what else do you think really makes a difference in terms of Leiho's host kind of culture? Cause everything they were saying to me about the retention of volunteers and the impact they've had, with the kickstarter and other volunteers that have come through that says to me a lot about the kind of culture that you put into place. So. I guess two parts to that question, Joey, was it deliberate, did you a have a plan when it came to Leiho's culture and team culture? And if so, what was it?
Joey Li:Culture is also a very tricky one at Leiho because I think at the beginning it was just me and my co-founder and I think we struggled a little bit with culture just as co-founders, because it was one of those things where we were trying really hard to grow this business and just make this happen that we almost forgot to be team players. We were team players. We were building this, but we forgot to do little things like celebrating the milestones or talking about the KPIs or just general things... at the end of the week recapping what was good about this week, or almost not even congratulating each other, but giving each other pats on the backs and little things that we did well. So, at the beginning, I would say our culture was not necessarily present purely because we were always so quite similar in terms of the way we worked. it was so natural that it didn't feel like we had a culture to protect if that makes sense. But now, because we have more people, we do feel like, okay, we need to make sure that there is more consistency because everyone has different commitments. So, we'd go for a drink with volunteers or we'd have virtual wine nights, it was just little things like that that really made us feel more like a team and also made us feel more human. We joined this program called Virtual Internships and I think they gave us like three or four different interns during lockdown. And one of them was in Saudi Arabia, two were in America, it was just all over the world. So time difference was a huge thing and really making sure that they were waking up before their lectures and, working with us was also another thing. And then also making sure that they had fun. So we tried to come up with loads of different activities and just keep a very inclusive culture and just made sure we were checking up on them and not starting the conversation with what are we going to do today. It was more like, how was everyone's weekend? Or, what are you guys doing after today? And then we start getting a conversation going.
Yiuwin Tsang:Yeah, I think that's the same for lots of startups and early stage and smaller companies where it's just the founders, just the directors, they are the culture. You are the team. And I remember one of my old mentors and they said your very first hire, it has the biggest impact on your culture because, they're the first ones to come through and how do you protect your culture, which is such a nice way of articulating it cause it is something that has to be quite precious. I think there's something that you have to look after. But it does make me think all the things that you spoke about, Joey about this human connection that you have between your team members, asking them how they are and checking in with them, being present, listening, all these things are kind of come through to me, sounds like just really good practice. And when it comes to looking after your team, managing your team, But what I feel is that given the purpose and the impact and what Leiho is about and all the things that you mentioned before about that connection with local community, that connection, that visibility of doing good. I feel like it gives you that advantage over perhaps organisations that don't have such a clear purpose driver behind them.
Joey Li:I mean, don't get me wrong. We've had, we've had about, I think two volunteers that have just gone AWOL, but it's commitment as well. I think it was, it's constantly a learning curve for us. We're trying to also, like I've said, protect and maintain this business culture, but we've had to learn quite a lot from the very beginning, I've worked with a lot of with a lot of creative organisations and industries before, but I've never managed, I've managed teams before as well to host events. But that was just a one-time thing. You get caterers, sponsors, whatever it is. You work with them for a couple of months and then that's done, whereas this is a team and they're ' okay, so what do we do next?' And we're like, I don't know. So, that was, just one of, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily business culture. That's more of the management side, but there was a lot we needed to learn on that end as well to make sure, okay. We've got a system where the team knows what they're doing and there's not too much handholding, with every step and yeah. Again, I don't think that's necessarily business culture, but the management side of things was something that we also had to learn as we went.
Yiuwin Tsang:The strategy and the planning side of the business and the elements like that.
Joey Li:Yeah, or I guess team management. So we were having a lot of fun with them, having really nice conversations about business and stuff, but when it came to setting tasks, it became quite hard, especially with people who have full-time jobs and commitments, it was hard to make sure, okay, this is what you need to do. It was a huge learning curve for us. We just needed to really figure out okay, what it is we need to do to set those kinds of boundaries, to be like, okay, this is what we need to achieve. But then on that end also have a good balance between that business culture, which I think we've kind of learned the ropes now, but at the beginning, it was mainly more like a culture party at Leiho giving back, but then less of the tasks and the nitty gritty stuff.
Yiuwin Tsang:I feel like it a more natural approach to it in the sense that you've got that bond. You've got that connection with your team, with your volunteers and your interns, whatever it might be and then it's a case of working out the, almost like, as you say that, that kind of the logistics behind it. How do you make this relationships beautiful as it is? How'd you make this produce the positive impact to produce the outcomes and so it's not just you guys that feel good, but it's also the people you're trying to have a positive impact on can feel that as well. What advice would you give to founders who are looking to engage with to the local communities? What would you say would be a good starting point for them to go after.
Joey Li:I would always say start small. We started working with a lot of smaller charities and projects purely because the impact there was bigger. You get to see a lot of the impact in-person directly. It was just a lot more hands-on. Whereas if you're working with bigger organisations, I wouldn't say it's not as impactful, but it's not as educational or insightful for a founder. If you really, really want to learn about these local communities, you go and start with the small and you really start to understand and kind of unravel and unpack and just go with open ears and just really listen to them because I think again, we learnt so much from working with all these small charities and we knew that from the beginning. We actually, when we first started with finding partnerships for Leiho, we were aiming for big, huge charities, like Crisis, Shelter and stuff. They had no idea who we were and now we're like, oh, actually we started. And then we shifted more towards all these small charities and the amount of work we've done with them and the relationships that we've nurtured and fostered with them is amazing to fast forward two years, we're still in touch with them, whatever they need, they come to us and it's still that ongoing relationship. So I think if you're really wanting to make impact, especially as a new founder start with the small and especially the local communities that really do need your help because again, businesses and brands have so much power to make that change and this can be to as well, but SMEs take up about, I think 90% of enterprises in wealth and about half of global employment if I'm not wrong, I did do my research and I think the statistics are right. But, that puts a lot into perspective in terms of every single business can make change. Think about how much change we can make in this world. So as an SME or a small business, do you start with the small and make sure that the impact is actually meaningful and impactful.
Yiuwin Tsang:Thanks so much Joey Li from Leiho for sharing your journey so far with your business. Thank you for telling us about the challenges you've seen, faced and overcome in creating positive change in the world.