Leading with authenticity - Cathy Moseley, The Kernel at Boundless Activated Snacking

Yiuwin Tsang from the Beautiful Business team is joined by Cathy Moseley. Cathy is The Kernel at Boundless Activated Snacking.

On this week's Beautiful Business podcast, Yiuwin Tsang from the Beautiful Business team is joined by Cathy Moseley. Cathy is The Kernel (😁) at Boundless Activated Snacking.

In the first of three cracking - not to be missed - episodes, Cathy talks about the importance of keeping sight of your goals, looking after your team and why founders need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable... Listen in for this and so much more...

Cathy founded Boundless Activated Snacking in 2017 after she left a job as a commodities trader in the city in search of a new adventure.

Running a busy street food stall, she regularly turned to snacks to keep her fuelled throughout the working day, but being gluten intolerant, she struggled to find anything that wasn't either full of rubbish or that just tasted rubbish. That's when the idea for Boundless was born. She started investigating snacks that would keep her fuller for longer, look after the gut, and most importantly, taste good. She spent months cooking up a storm in her kitchen until she perfected her Boundless activated nuts and seeds range. Boundless is on a mission to make snacking easy, creating tasty, healthy products that are genuinely good to the gut. They take great ingredients and make them better using the art of activation to fully release all the nutrients and enable better digestion.

Boundless Activated Snacking can be found in more than 3000 stores across the UK and 10 international markets, including Germany, Belgium, and Asia. In the last 12 months alone, the online business has seen in excess of 4000% growth, maintaining its spot as Amazon's choice for good health snacks.

Transcript

Yiuwin Tsang: 0:01

Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the Beautiful Business Podcast. I'm Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business Team, and this week I had the pleasure of getting to chat with the incredible Cathy Mosley. Cathy founded Boundless Activated Snacking in 2017 after she left a job as a commodities trader in the city in search of a new adventure. Running a busy street food stall. She regularly turned to snacks to keep her fuelled throughout the working day, but being gluten intolerant, she struggled to find anything that wasn't either full of rubbish or that just tasted rubbish, and that's when the idea for Boundless was born. She started investigating snacks that would keep her fuller for longer, look after the gut, and most importantly, taste good. She spent months cooking up a storm in a kitchen until she perfected her range of Boundless activated nuts and seeds. Boundless is on a mission to make snacking easy, creating tasty, healthy products that are genuinely good to the gut. They take great ingredients and make them better using the art of activation to fully release all the nutrients and enable better digestion. Boundless Activated Snacking can be found in more than 3000 stores across the UK, as well as 10 international markets, including Germany, Belgium, and Asia. In the last 12 months alone, the online business has seen an in excess of 4000% growth, maintaining its spot as Amazon's choice for good health snacks. So you can certainly say Cathy knows what she's doing when it comes to running a Beautiful Business. I hope you enjoy the interview. So Kathy, let's start with the first section. And the first section we've called, starting with the end in mind and, and it's really covering off, you know, why vision and purpose. It was absolutely key for you when you were setting up boundless. And I know that, I know that you're so passionate about your business. Absolutely. So passionate about being a challenger brand. And I'm just really curious to know, you know, what was it that inspired you to launch boundless? Well, okay. I think it's like most businesses that start it's something that you, or either it's a need you have, or you feel that there's a need out there. And I think for me, you know, starting boundaries was a need I had. And I wanted to I suffer from like intolerances. Do you know what I mean? Like gluten and dairy and all these kind of stuff. And, and I just always felt that there was, you know, there was nothing really out there that kind of met the level, you know, to like, look after you, like look after you. Well, and I think we've kind of been seeing so much in the kind of snacking world that literally pumped us full. Rubbish, you know, and kind of didn't actually do anything for us. And certainly if you add any intolerances and stuff like that, you know, so for me, because of having those intolerances, I got really interested in gut health and trying to understand like the deeper meaning of gut health, you know, knowing now that like our gut is our second brain and that how it leads to kind of our mental health, our whole disposition of how we feel. And so that really kind of got me started because I was having my own problems. And so then you kind of like you think, well, you know, you're going down the pub with your friends and everyone else has a great old time, but you can't snack on anything cuz everything's full of crap and that's gonna be really bad for you. So you kind of like feel like you're not being invited to the party and let's face it. You know, everyone wants to be invited to the party, right. At least once, even if you are not invited back, you definitely wanna be invited. So For me, it just felt like there can't there isn't only me out there that feels like having these intolerances, but also I felt like, why should you have a product that separates you from the rest, right. As in, why don't you have a product that includes everybody and everybody can have it, you know? And so I think. What pushed me further into gut health, because for me, everybody has issues with gut health. I mean, if you look in, in the UK 86% of the UK register with having gut health problems, actually themselves, and one in four people go to the doctors because it's gut related and yet we pop pills. We, you know, we have that real bad kind of attitude of like, I don't feel well, so I'll take a tablet, you know, rather than thinking, well, you know that old fashioned doctor saying you are what you eat. And it, that used to be much more aligned to kind of, you know, oh, are you taller or smaller or, you know, carrying more weight, that kind of stuff. But in natural fact, you are what you eat is your gut and you know, and that makes you, that makes you so much happier and everything else. And so for me, I felt like it wasn't just my need. It was, it was a bigger need. Everybody needs to look after their gut. And no one was really doing that in terms of where we are in snacking. And the reason I chose snacking is I'm a real greedy little snacker. So, you know, let's hands up, everyone loves a snack. And I think you can look at it from two ways. You can look at it from a point of nutrition. You know, some people would say, well, you know, snacking's bad for you. And I'm not saying that there isn't those elements that are, are probably quite, you know, medically kind of ballpark. Right. But I think we all snack, so that's not gonna change. So either we improve that, I mean, and we do help everybody, or we make people go into this abstinence, which they're never gonna laugh. Do you know what I mean? So for me, my point was, okay, here's the challenge. Let's make snacks that look after people that are good to the gut and that everyone can enjoy. And I love a challenge. So yeah, that's, that's, that's, that was my big idea clearly. It took a while to get it going, but that was the big eye boom moment kind of thing. It's really interesting. The stats that you that you brought up there, Kathy, about people suffering from gut conditions. We did a project quite recently with the NHS and it was eyeopening, you know, just how many people are affected by it. More people are affected by good problems than they are by hay fever. I think the sta sta absolutely. And, and the other bit, just to pick up on your point, there is about the exclusion that it causes. We did some research and there was lady in one of the research groups and bless her she's 21 years old, you know, at that kind of peak where socializing your life is social, right. Friends, family, and all the rest of it. And bless her. She was like, you know, she, she didn't wanna feel like a burden to her friends because of her the conditions that she had. And what she was able to eat and what she was not able to eat. So there's that kind of psychological effect as well. I suppose that, yeah, it does. And I think, like you're saying it feeds, you know, your bad gut health feeds onto your brain. It's your mental health, you know, you kind of got 70% of what's going out of your gut is going into your brain. And that is like a huge amount of, you know, like you say, feeling like, you know, a burden feeling, all these things. And I think, you know, in that sense, who wants to feel like that, you know, at the prime time of your life. And the thing is also, if you don't get your gut right from, you know, almost, you know, from infancy, you, you, you have that buildup to feeling excluded. And I think it's It's not nice feeling who wants to feel like that. And I think a lot of people, to your point, as you say, what you've done with the NHS is lots of people just say, they think, you know, they might not even have a real intolerance, but they still have a niggly gut or they feel more lethargic or they feel more kind of like, they just don't feel sitting with themselves even more. I'm having a bad day. And what most people would do is then reach. You know, your comfort crap, you know, and that's just gonna make you feel even worse. And that, and I think it's, it's understanding that and helping people from a bigger perspective, it's not just that initial ripple pull it's, it's the outside effect of how you can change people's lives by looking after your gut. It just a normal basis, not even kind of like trying to push yourself into this complete plant pace, which most people is UN obtainable. So I think it's, you know, small steps, but in the right way to help everybody. Yeah, I agree. Hundred percent. So, so, so when you were setting up boundless and, and, and, and, and obviously having this kind of this, this vision and, and having this kind of purpose out there to improve gut health. And, and I do, and I do think that it is such an important part of that kind of inclusion, inclusionary kind of perspective as well. How, how did that, how did having that vision, having that purpose manifest when you were. Setting it up and, and, and, and, and almost kind of guide your decision making as you were going through that. Yeah. Well, I think so the first thing I I think what I had, so there, you've got the vision and you're thinking, okay, this is, I wanna make snacks. Okay. But you are also, you're thinking, okay, what snack can I make? Okay. In terms of kind of making it better. And I think that's where I initially started for myself. So it. Down the pub, you know, and basically nuts and seeds, you know, nuts and seeds are probably one of the greatest things that everybody, I mean, you should eat 30 grams of nuts and seeds, no matter what you do in your daily diet, that is like by the world health organization, we all need nuts and seeds. And the amount of people that don't consume nuts and seeds could really help them just by having nuts and seas. So nuts and seas was my point to start and I started making it at home and that kind of like developed, taken down the pub and then all my mates were bloody stealing it and I was like, right. Okay. And I think so to be fair, did I have a kind of like, it's going to be this product? It wasn't, I think it just organically grew in the sense of. Making stuff for myself and getting into activation, which is what we do as a process to help gut health. So activation real ancient method, we soak our nuts and seeds and we remove phatic acid and further on. Now we sprout our grains also basically to make nutrients much more available to you. Stop you bloating. You know, that kind of stuff stops the irritation in the gut. So nuts and seeds seem quite a, an easy place to start for me, cuz I was doing that. And then obviously then comes, you'll know your real business plan behind that. And then obviously I looked at like, what, how many nuts and seeds is consumed in the UK worldwide? What. It's massive. It's a huge consumption, but of course it's not as much as it should be. So my point was, I thought that, and, you know, looking at the world health organization as well and what they were saying, and I just thought this is the place to go. Which, I mean, this is the place for, for me to start. And then you kind of like evolve you think to yourself, okay, well, how am I gonna deliver that? You know, how are I gonna make that into a snack? How are we gonna get that process out there? You know, should it be in a tub? Should it be in a big bag? Should it be in a little on the go bag? You know, and my, and I think my decision on that was really based about the 30 grams that you need of nuts and seeds, which is why we originally started with our 30 grand nuts and seeds. But also it was reflective from price. And because in order to deliver gut health, which everybody needs, you've got to try and make it as affordable as possible for anybody. And my price point in my mind was always trying to compare myself to a miles bar. You know, I E if you choose a miles bar, that's your choice, but I'd hope to think that the choice between the miles bar and what we produce, isn't a price point decision. And that really kind of started my brain thinking about that. So I suppose I brought that all in, because if my mission is to change gut health for snacking, then it can't be just an elite thing. You know, it's got to be a much. Kind of, you know, group that can, can be attracted to that. That's super interesting. Cuz it sounds like the journey that you've been on, there's obviously that kind of personal reflection point where you think, you know, what kind of product, what kind of, what kind of solution is there for something that you've firsthand experienced? You then looked at what you had available to yourself to do this kind of home, build, you know, home kind of testing out of the pub, this kind of scenario. And then, and then, and then you've gone into that kind of wider. And I suppose this comes into commercial sustainability as well, when you're looking at things like your, your pricing points. And but, but as you say, you know, going down that. Very premium high pricing point product. It's a very valid route for market, arguably quite lucrative one, if you were to do things right, and, you know, with a good win behind you. So the fact that you made the decision to peg your pricing point at a MAs bar, for example, so surely that's something around that whole kind of purpose, your kind of vision, your goal manifesting in how you're running the business. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think, you know, like I'm being, you know, as, as blatantly honest as I can be, that, that, you know, is the sense that basically we took less of a commercial profit from that kind of thing, and that wasn't necessarily what most other businesses might do or don't do. But I think I feel much more about a social purpose with what I do and what our team, you know, has made possible. And for me is there's., you know, everything's nation to, it's not right. Okay. And I, I think that's probably really, really important, but if you're gonna have a mission and you really are true to that mission, then it can't just be, you know, selling it to the elite, you know, that's not because that, isn't what my mission is. My mission is to change gut health for people. And that's people that's not, you know, the top 1% it's people you know, and I think for me, you know, I grew up in a, in a, in an environment where we didn't have a lot of money and hardworking family, but we didn't have a lot of money. And I know what it's like to feel like that. And I think, and not feel that, you know, you can afford XYZ. And I mean, gosh, we're in that probably real difficult phase now with everything going with cost of living and everything else. But yeah, that, that really. Pushed for me that I wanted to make it, make it affordable and therefore spread the gut love, I suppose, you know, in that way, you know, hopefully I'm, hopefully I'm, I'm getting to achieve that, but yeah, that's, that's the goal, but we go on, you know, it isn't here, we gotta push harder and everything else, but that's really, it's really fascinating and it's really inspiring to hear it as well, Kathy, cause I think, I think as a founder as a business owner or any sort of leadership team in, in, you know, commercial kind of business spaces there will always be daily attacks on your values, on your culture, on your, on your kind of purpose, you know? Should you take that client on, should you take that supplier on or take that brand or whatever it might be should it might be a really big check waiting for you the other side, but if it, if it undermines your values, if it undermines you your purpose, then you, you have to make that decision whether or not to. Yeah. And I think like our core values from get go, and, and we, and obviously we stick to our core values, you know, that we were never gonna use anything that wasn't natural. You know, we were never gonna kind of like, you know, bullshit our consumer, you know, we, we, we wasn't about that because that, that was my point from the beginning. Was there were so many things out there that tell you they're gonna do something for you, you know, and it's all kind of plays into people's psyche and all this stuff. And it's kind of words hidden on the back of labels and all of these kind of things. And I think for me, you know, honesty was absolutely paramount. And then that honesty filters into the product that you're doing, it filters into the team that you're building, it filters into everything that brand stands for, but it also filters into pricing. You know, I mean, you know, welcome to BP and shell currently, you know, that kind of stuff, but it, it, it feeds into that, doesn't it? I mean, yes, of course you are a business, you're a commercial, we're not a social enterprise. That's the, you know, and we've got bills to pay and we've got, you know, people need, their salaries pays and all that kind of stuff. And we've got projections, of course. So that's that we wouldn't be here otherwise, but there is that level of, okay, what do we need? What do we need to go? What do we wanna do? But what, what does the consumer need? You know, what does the consumer need to need our, to get our product? You know, because we know they need it. We know they need the gut health. We just gotta make sure that they, they want it because they can afford it. You know, it's a really big, it's a really big factor. And then, you know, and hopefully by being honest and true as a brand that our consumer understands that about us and that we've got their back, you know, and I think that's, yeah, I, I would be sorely disappointed to see any of that change. I good, good stuff. And, and I think it's fair to say as well, that just touching on what you're saying there about consumer and the relationships that consumers have with their brand is, is, is underpinned by trust. And, and that, as you said, kind of honesty and that kind of transparency as, as well. And I feel like that again, comes back to having that vision, having that purpose and, and, and, and making your. Decisions as a founder, as a business leader to be guided by that purpose, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I think like anything, so many brands start off, I mean, and that might not just be in food and lots. They'll have their vision, their purpose, and then chink by chin, by chink, by chink, by chink, it evolves into being what you set out not to do. And, and that was one of the things that I had when we were trying to make Boundless and products. We went to lots. I went to, you know, it took me nearly two years to find a manufacturer to do it because obviously I couldn't make it in my kitchen, mainly because my husband was probably gonna leave me if I continued doing that. So I thought best not. And you know, but also because what we do is actually quite scientific in terms of, you know, soaking nuts and season sprouting grains. There's that kind of like the microorganisms around that you have to be really careful. So we needed a manufacturer and it took me two years to find one for that very reason because lots of people said they could do it for me and everything else, but they wanted to bastardize it and like, yeah, yeah, well, we could do it least. And then we'll just change it and do that. Well, no, then it's not that then it's not the pro product. You're basically making me KP, but saying something else, you know? So I think, yeah, I, I think that one of that point is I think purpose as a brand is ultimately. Beyond important, because if you don't have a purpose, how on earth is your consumer gonna understand what your purpose is? You know, and I think that's really fundamental to making a great honest brand, but I think it's also about sticking to your guns. Sure. Innovation changes, science changes that I'm not saying don't keep up to date, but being true to what you want to do, because that is what your consumer will resonate. And you also can sleep at night, shut your eyes, thinking I've done the right thing. You know, I'm doing the right thing. It might not be the easiest road, but I'm doing the right thing, you know? And I think that's the best point, I guess. What do you do though? When you're in that position where it's, you know, you are, there's a corner that could be cut, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a shortcut that you could take, but it would undermine that kind of value piece. Yeah. I think what advice would you give to founders who, who, who are faced with that dilemma? I think, I would say, you know, we have a a motto at boundless and hopefully I can say this and we say, fuck, it we'll find a way. Right. Okay. And I think that, and that motto is about, we will find a way around what we need to find a way as long as we stay true to what we do. And I think, look, one of the biggest things about starting up your business and everything else is the fact that it's financial and it is absolutely probably one of the most excruciating painful things you go through in the sense of how much money have we got, what is this purpose? You know, you know, what's this what's first of course, we'd all like to make the most perfect thing that costs a penny yet. That perfect thing costs 400 quid. No, one's gonna buy it. You know what I mean? Cause it's only worth a penny realistically, you know? So I think, you know, I think. in terms of that is the fact that you've got to be able to close your eyes. You know, you've got to be able to live with your decision. And my point would be, if you can't then done, do you know what I mean, then done because that's it, otherwise you're doing a different business and that's not your purpose. That wasn't what your values were. You are creating a different business. Now, if you wanna change your business, that's up to you. Okay. But that's not what you originally started off with. So my point would be, if you can't shut your eyes, then done. And I think that's yeah, absolutely. The right thing to say, hopefully everyone out there. They're all like, what's she talking about? But no, it's, it's true. You know, a hundred, a hundred percent. I couldn't agree with you more. I think that. The the, I remember going on leadership course many years ago, and it was one, do you know when you, like somebody says something incredibly profound and sticks in your brain and he said that the, the trainer said your purpose is like the keel of a boat. The bit that sticks in the water and said, you know, if you've got a strong keel, if you've got a strong purpose, then no matter how fast you have to sell your boat, no matter how rough the sea gets, no matter how strong the wind is, your boat will stay upright. And, and, and that stuck with me. That's great. Yeah. And there's everything that you just said there really resonates with that, you know? I love that, that, you know, if you can't close your eyes and don't, then don't do it. Yeah. I mean, who wants to create a business that isn't the business they started? I mean, you you've, you found a reason to do what you wanna do. And I think your analogy is yeah. Is brilliant. Yeah. I like that. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna steal that you, and that's a story feel free. I want to move on to the next section of questions, if that's alright. You can. Yeah. Cool. Cuz this one, I know that I know that you're really passionate about this one as well, and it definitely definitely comes across. Cause what, so this one's about getting people on the bus and, and, and why building a team is more than just a numbers game. And, and we know that it is, but I, I know that from conversations we've had previously, and just hearing you talk about the team about your team are boundless, your eyes light up. So tell us about, tell us about the team. Tell us about the setup, you know, what was your kind of first hire and, and, and did you have like a people strategy when you, when you went about building. Well, I suppose like, so I suppose for me team is everything okay. You're nothing without your team. And if you think you are, then you are gonna make a real massive mistake. Okay. Cause your team, I wouldn't be, we, I wouldn't be talking here with you. You're in, if it wasn't for my team, they literally are like my right arm, my left arm, my legs, my brain, everything. I love Amador my team, literally. I really mean that I'd probably give one of them a kidney if they needed it, you know, I absolutely love them. So, you know, they're great. So in terms of strategy for team all I had in my mind about strategy for team was hire people that have your values, you know, that have your values, you know, and that was, that was my thing. So it was whether they were gonna be head of sales or whether they're gonna be kind of like on logistics or whatever they're gonna do. The bottom line is if they don't have your values, the purpose of the business, the values of the business, all of that stuff, then doesn't matter how great and smart they are. They're not gonna fit. And I think that is key, cuz I think attracting good people is about having the purpose that everyone believes in because it is hard. In a startup. It is, you are gonna run faster, work harder than you have ever, ever worked in your entire life. Anyone ever thinks like, oh, I know I'll start my own business. It'll be so much more flexible. Forget that that's absolute rubbish. And everyone now really needs to know that, but that's why you do it, cuz you are passionate about it. And you've got all of that. So you need a team that's gonna run with you that believes in that also that's willing to give up Sunday and spend Sunday night with you going, oh my God. You know, and we have this thing at work that we always say. Do Unilever have this problem, you know, every single day course they don't. Well, yeah, maybe they do, but on a bigger scout, you know, and I think so that was, for me, that was, that was the real, that was the real thing about hire good people in terms of them, they will be good if they've got your values. And then of course the role that they've got. Sure. They know how to do it, but it's about them, you know, because that's what you do. You're building a family in a startup, you know, we are bonded, you know, we know each other so well, we're gonna have to get on, you know, and you're gonna, because you spend. All your time at work, so you're gonna need to get on. So that was, so that was in my mind. And I've always been big about team. I don't think I've ever worked anyway previously to starting boundaries without being in team. I love team. I think you're so much better in a team, you know, even bill gates, I'm sure would say he's better for a team, you know? So I think that that's both for me. And then, so for my, so first hire, well, I suppose again, I roped in a friend, right? So this was the best way. Isn't it? Do you know what I mean? Cause you kind of like one, you can like tell him, but right. I've got this great idea. You can come and work with me cuz my friend Talia who joined me at the start and she had a, she worked in food and she'd worked for supermarkets and things. So she obviously had a background of understanding, you know, what I was trying to achieve. Whereas I didn't have any in that, in food service or anything like food industry. And so I wrote it and you know, and, but what you do with a friend is you say, right, got this idea, got its thing, gonna do this and this that would you like to come? And like, you know, help me join me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, by the way, I'm not gonna pay you of course. Right. Cause we've got no money and all the money we're gonna spend is gonna be like trying to get the brand and the product and your fresh production and all that stuff. But you are gonna love it. And we're gonna really, and she said, yes. She said yes, because she said yes, cuz once she knows I'm absolutely not. Anyway. So she thought. Otherwise, I was gonna be so tenacious and bug her every single day until she said yes. So she couldn't stand the thought. I was probably gonna call her every 10 minutes going, have you changed your mind yet? Have you changed your mind yet? That kind of stuff. So she said yes, but she, she said yes for several reasons. And the point about what we just talked about a minute ago is she said, yes, because she's a team player. And she said, yes, because. She's got the understood the purpose and she has the right values. And she said, yes, cuz she thought maybe it was a good idea, you know, so, you know, but it goes back to, it goes back to that. So she was my first hire unpaid. So technically she's, she's my first hire. But and then like from there, you, I think you organically grow in a startup. You know, I roped in another few friends as well. I roped in a friend, that's an accountant. So I said, yeah, you like Chris, do you wanna come and do a bit of this? He was like, well, what do you want me to do? I mean, yeah, just do the accounts and just, you know, help me with that again. Not paying you cause we are good friends. Right. So, you know, but I think energy breeds energy. Right. And you know, I've got some great friends and I'm really lucky. Okay. It's about, I suppose. And I don't wanna sound like being egotistical here. It's about, because I love what boundless can offer. I love our mission. I love our business and passion breeds, passion, energy, breeds it. And if people that believe and have the same mindset as you, they get swept up with you as well. And I think that's how you build a really. Team from start, you know, and from small acorns Oak trees grow, I guess it's, it's, it's that whole thing about having something which is greater than some of its parts. And I, and I think the, the vibe that I get from you is that you brought these people in, there's obviously this hygiene level in terms of what their capabilities are, technical capabilities, perhaps Talia who has that experience in supermarkets, FM CGS, and, and bias markets and stuff like this, Chris with the accountancy skills and, and the financial kind of kudos. So from a, from a kind of skills, hygiene level, That, that that's kind of it. But everything that you talked about is about that almost that kind of less tangible part, you know, that, that cultural alignment people that share the same values as you, people that, you know, have similar sorts of beliefs as you and it's and it's, and it's interesting, isn't it? Cause you see that energy, it's almost like it, it unlocks this extra level of like, like, I don't wanna say effort. That sounds like it's too much hard work because it's like, I'm sure you you're proponent of this, but when you really enjoy what you do. And you don't be work, do you? Yeah, it doesn't feel like work, is it? You know? And, but, but in order for, for that to happen, then you need to have the right kind of people in the room, the right people on the bus. Yeah, exactly. And I think the point is to your point about the bus is no one wants to get on the bus. Do they, with the, with the boring person that gets on and drives you around the bus again and there on the left hand side is St. Paul's cathedral. And he got, you want the person on there going right, come on, get on this bus. This is fun. You know? Oh my God, did you know about Paul's cathedral, Billy? You know, you are on it. You like, this is great. This is hilarious, you know, but it does. And then you would've taken all the factual information in, on that tour of London, but with you, would've just sped it rather than like, oh, what did they say about Westminster? What was that? You know, because you're like, oh, dreary boring, you know, I know we're gonna talk about leadership in a bit, but it does come, come back to that. Doesn't it it's about I suppose your role as, as, as much as any, one of the multiple roles that you wear, when you run a business is around living the values, living the purpose, amplifying that. Across and out view so that your team then picks upon it and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, and, and almost kind of reaffirms to them as well. Doesn't it? Cause as we all know, when you're run a business, there are highs, there are lows and it's, and it's somebody said to me, it's easy to lead when things are going well, it's when things are tough. And, and I think having that, having that baseline, having that support of aligned values is, is what can really kind of pull you through. Isn't it? It is. And I think, I think, yeah, you're totally right. But I think, you know, is the fact that also is, like you said, a moment ago, you're in, is the fact that you, you also need to have those people with the expertise because when you start, you know, you are, you know, you are an AME bar in a massive ocean and you are kind of literally trying to find your head, your spinning plates below the place. And one of the first things, no matter what business you are doing is you've gotta have a grip on that finance. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to understand where you go and you've got to have somebody, especially, if, if you don't come from that background, you've got to have someone that understands the mechanism of how that industry works, you know, and, and then you can build on that, you know, and your idea and everything else. And you, you are the one that understands, you know, about, you know, the vision and, you know, you've done the research. I mean, research as a whole, I mean, I would say that is your top priority in terms of. Setting up any kind of business and as you know, bringing on the right people that will also help do that because you need to know your market no matter what you are doing. And certainly, well, what we do in snacking, you gotta absolutely understand that market where you fit, you know, all of these kind of factors, because what else is on the shelf? What else, what, what do you wanna take off the shelf to put you on the shelf? You know, because that's what a, buyer's gonna tell you. There's only X amount of space. What am I getting off to put you off? You know, that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, you know, what better purpose do you offer? What's your benefit above this? So research from that point of view, but also having a, having a team that fit into roles that, you know, are fundamental to a startup finance, you know, understanding the mechanics of that industry and the idea. Yeah, you can build from that, but if you don't have that, you, you, I think you'll be quite lost in most industries. I, I think that's right. You, you, you do need that those skill sets and, and, and I think you touched upon it briefly there about having complimentary skill as well. I love that phrase that you become you become an average of the people around you. So, you know, and I often mash those two, two things together. You become an average of the people around you and you, you, you need to, if you are the cleverest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. And, and, and, and that's very much it and, and getting people who are better than you are things yeah. So that you are able to raise, you know? Absolutely. And I think accepting, I mean, I'm, I'm quite big about like, not having egos. I don't like we have a policy at brown list, no egos allowed, you know, and it's really important that you, you say, I dunno what that means. What does that mean? Then? I, I can't do that bit. Right. Okay. Can you do that bit, right. Okay. I can do this bit, you know, but then that also leads back to people having the same thought process as you, you know, not thinking, you know, I think like a few weeks ago we had a trade show I'm supposed to be in charge. I always say that I'm supposed to be, it really belongs to the team, but I was supposed to be in charge, but I'm driving the van, you know, I'm driving the van to the trace show because I can drive the van. It's, you know, I can do that. Why wouldn't I, you, you, you pull what you need to know from Meha. It's making sure that you've got round pegs in round holes, you know, and not trying to put 'em in squares, that sort stuff, I think. Yeah. But you have to be honest about yourself and honest about everybody else in the team. What's weaknesses and what's strengths. Okay. What what's my weakness is this well, I've gotta strengthen. You know, and especially because when you, when you start a business, you don't have a lot, you're not only gonna walk into, you know, Coca-Cola's head office and say, right, I've got a massive office, got a hundred people. They're gonna do everything for me. It just doesn't work like that. No, no, indeed. And, and, and, and if anything, you know, the different challenges come up then really, when you've got, when you've got that number of people with, with smaller teams, you know, when you're like 10 employee size or whatever might be there's, there's nowhere really to hide. So having that transparency is, and I love the fact that, you know, you say you, you know, you drive the van. We used to have this thing when we worked in events. You know, don't, don't no egos, as you say, but, you know everybody packs up the chairs at the end, you know, it's stuff, it's stuff like that, you know, and everybody, and it's having that culture of, of teamwork. Your it's, but also proves to your team. You are the, you are with the team. Yes. Not suddenly like I'm off now. You can all do that. Yeah. There's no hierarchy. We, we, we, we haven't got time for that. No idea, and neither should you. And then that's, if you're building a family and you're building a team and you're building that purpose, then if you start to create this kind of corporate structure within you within that, then I think you lose the essence of what you're trying to achieve. I think so. And it sucks the fun out of it as well. You, when you're running a business, now, one, one of the, and I'm sure you get it. And I'm sure people who kind of are tuning into this as well. You know, you know, amazing, beautiful businesses will probably see this more often than, than, than other businesses. But when, when you, when you, when your team and your culture is set up in such a way that the individuals kind of like goal isn't about self-promotion, it's about helping those around them. And then everybody is doing this and everybody's got each other's backs. And it's a, I think there's a, I think there's a proper like academic term for it. I think it's called real teams. You've got this thing called pseudo teams, which is where basically. There is sat in the same room, but they're basically thinking, what do I need to do and make sure I keep my job yeah. Ahead of everybody else. Whereas, you know, when, when the shifts over and you get into the psyche website, what do we, what can I do to help other people on my team be their best then? That's when incredible thinking, I think powerful that's, that's powerful. And I think, you know, like you was talking about the pseudo teams and stuff like that. I think that's old C. That's old corporate, you know, that's not, that's not the purple cow way of thinking. No, you know, if you're gonna stand out and you're gonna say, you, you, you, this is innovation. This is change. This is the way people can work remotely. This is the way, you know, you don't have to go into work in a suit and tie and all of those kind of stuff, you know, this is, this is the new way of working. And I think if you are a startup in this world, you've gotta be thinking, that's the new way of working. You've gotta work together collectively. We are better than we are one. Yeah. And, and I think it plays a big part into how you attract and retain staff as well. Because you know, the, the, the fact of the matter is, is one of the biggest challenges I think, faced. Many business owners across the UK is the, the, the, the war for talent, horrible putting it. But, you know, certainly certainly generations that are coming through the, the, the context of work has shifted so much and not thing as a job for life, you know? And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and I think from surveys, enumeration, it's still important, but it's not the most important thing. I mean, of course, I think you have to be, you know, you have to be realistic. People have to pay their bills and let's face it. They're all going up, you know, and people, yeah. People gotta pay their bills and they, they are entitled. To that they are entitled to have a certain standard of life in the sense, because they're working in that way. And they've, you know, mind times that 10 people've studied hard to get what they've got or, you know, whatever they've done. They've, they've tried to take the opportunities that they've been offered and therefore you absolutely have, you know, respect for that. I mean, we, we have a thing that we do is the living wage. So we are a member of the living wage society. And I wouldn't think about ever paying anyone, you know, just minimum pay. It's gotta be right. You've gotta respect your staff. You know, we also have like share option program at boundless, which is something I wanted from. Get go that every member of staff can work to having shares within the business, you know, skin in the game whatsoever, you know, and I think it it's really important because that makes 'em feel, you know, and rightly so that it's not just what they're individually doing. It's the whole team working, I think. Yeah, of course enumeration is really important, but I think you are right. I think it's about the quality of your day, you know, and that quality of your day needs to be top level when you're, when you work in any kind of small business now, because you'll spend a lot of time doing it. You know, and I think that's really, really important, I think. Yeah. I, I, I couldn't agree more with you when we, when we first started chatting, we talked a little bit, and I mentioned this whole concept of nurturing teams. And, and again, you are kind of face lit up when we said this, cuz I think you said it's that, that concept of nurturing, not just kind of training them or kind of upskilling them, but that whole concept of nurturing, what does it, what does it mean to you and, and, and, and, and how do you kind of try and try and nurture your team of boundless? Well, I mean, like I said now, as I always talk to you about being a family and things like that, and I think, you know, on, on a practical scale, one-to-ones all the time, you know, I think that's really important. I think it's really important to. Not just talk one to one on a business point of view as well. One-to-one about them. How you doing, how you getting on how's this, you know, how, how was last night we went out with, so, and so what happened with your aunt last week? You said this, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think that's, that's really important that people get to feel that they can talk about them in, in a business as well. So, you know, from a practical point of doing that, but also for me, it's about listening to them. Do you know what I mean? In that nurture, you know, nurturing, nurturing their ideas, allowing their ideas to come out. You know, I, I, we work on a really collaborative basis at boundless and I think that is a guide of nurturing. It's allowing those thoughts, those things to be heard, try them. Let's give it a go. Sounds like a great idea. Let's try it. Why not? If it's thoughted out and we are thinking, yeah, let's get, it's not like, no. It's my way. That's not nurturing anybody. That's not allowing them to grow to be better. And I think that's one of the points of also maintaining your team, you know, because if someone feels stifled and they feel they're not listened to and they feel, they're just kind of like plotting and everything else, then, you know, good people will leave because they'll need their, you know, they'll want more, they'll need more. And rightly so. So I think that's a, a really important point. I think also flexibility in the sense of understanding their life needs, I think is really, is really important. I mean, I came from a real corporate structure before a started boundaries. You know, I worked in the city and I was a commodity trader, sold myself to the devil clearly while I've had an epiphany and changed my, I changed my whole life. But you know, where I sat. In the office at six o'clock in the morning and left at eight o'clock at night, you know, and took a Blackberry God that shows how old I am, took a Blackberry home with me that slept out of my pillow. That I'd be called from, you know, Hong Kong or New York, whatever it may be all through the night. And you know, you never allow people to be nurtured in that way of their own life. You know, so understanding someone's gotta go and pick their kids up. You go and get your kids, you know, that's, you'll do the work. It's not a problem. Let's just, just keep it light balance, you know, and done. It's come up today in my personal life, you know, can I, can I go off and do it? Yeah, yeah, of course. You'll you'll do the work. I mean, and I think that. Also a great way of nurturing. I mean, I can't remember who the psychologist is, but you know, there's that factor of the four day week, you know, you can do five days working four days and everything else. And, and we don't necessarily have a four day week at boundless, but what we do have is continue and ally flexibility within your working week. You know, we have set times that we'll say, right, we're gonna get on, we're gonna get on zoom at 10, or we're gonna be in the office on a Monday or whatever it is. And everyone sticks around that. Unless something emergency comes up, but outside of that, you're doing the job. You're doing whatever you need to do. You've got your goals, your targets and everything else. Then if you need to go, you need to be away. Then you go. But I think it's comes back to that original point we talked about is the honesty you have between each other, you know? So no one feels they've. Lie. They're probably all laughing about me now. Aren't they probably go, she don't know we're down the beach 24 7, but you know, it's the fact that, you know, no one needs to lie about where they need to be or where they need to go. And I think that goes back to the honest work, which goes back to of core value of boundaries. So it's a core value of boundaries in product, but it's a core bound, boundless value as us as a team. And I think those are one of the greatest ways to nurture. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm constantly learning the world's evolving, you know, I'm sure I've made a million mistakes. I don't even know I've made yet, you know, and that's okay. That's welcome to starting a business. But I think, you know, what's really important is that you listen, that ultimately is nurturing for me. You listen to what someone's got to. It makes so much sense. It makes so much sense, Kathy, and, and the other, the other, the other bit that I take from what, from, from what you're saying, there is this you need to be able to trust your team and, and, and, and foster this culture where you trust them. To do the work, to be diligent about the work, to be professional and to get what they need to get done. And they respond in kind, you know, they, they then trust you that you are making, you know, the best decisions for the business, for the, you know, for, for, for your customers, for them and, and stuff like this. And it is, again, you, you, you say you worked in, in, in the corporate kind of world. I bet like some of the culture that you see in the corporate world is, can be toxic because that trust is so difficult. Oh yeah. To, to, to, to, to create because of the systems, because of the structures. And because of the setup arguably because of the stakes as well, but it's much harder to, to generate that, that culture of trust, whereas in a smaller company again, you know? Yeah. And I think you made a really good point earlier also, and, you know, trust being the ultimate word, but I think you made a really good point is that, you know, when you're in a small team, you can't hide. So it, it would be pretty revealed pretty quickly if you weren't doing the role anyway, you know, so I think there's that. And I think if you are hiring good people, you know, and they've got your value and they, you know, they can do the job, then your three quarters of the way there anyway, you know, and the rest is honesty and trust. And if they feel that comes from you, then they will feel that also. And, and also the rest of the team is displaying that, and someone's not thinking God, they, you know, they, they just went for two hours to go and do something with their kids, or they went and did this, they to go skateboarding with their mates, cuz we're all trendy at bound, Les, we're all hip. And I'm, I'm on my inboard, as I'm speaking to you, you know, we're like that, we're like, we're rolling with the best, you know, like the only CEO we want in bulls all day long, but the, you know, all cause, but You you create that culture and to create that culture of honesty and trust and flexibility, but honest, hard work on the back of that. Okay. Is it has to start from the start because it is like a rotting apple. If you don't, the barrel will go, you know, and you, you need to do it from start, but that has to come from you as a founder. It has to come from, I, you know, this. Fabulous. That's such, such solid advice. And, and, and, and, and you're absolutely right. It does come, it comes from you as a founder and you kind of, you set out the store really, don't you? Kathy, I'm really conscious of time. I think we might have gone over by five minutes already and I've still got one last section I told I could talk all day long. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the Beautiful Business Podcast. I'm Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business Team, and this week I had the pleasure of getting to chat with the incredible Cathy Mosley. Cathy founded Boundless Activated Snacking in 2017 after she left a job as a commodities trader in the city in search of a new adventure. Running a busy street food stall. She regularly turned to snacks to keep her fuelled throughout the working day, but being gluten intolerant, she struggled to find anything that wasn't either full of rubbish or that just tasted rubbish, and that's when the idea for Boundless was born. She started investigating snacks that would keep her fuller for longer, look after the gut, and most importantly, taste good. She spent months cooking up a storm in a kitchen until she perfected her range of Boundless activated nuts and seeds. Boundless is on a mission to make snacking easy, creating tasty, healthy products that are genuinely good to the gut. They take great ingredients and make them better using the art of activation to fully release all the nutrients and enable better digestion. Boundless Activated Snacking can be found in more than 3000 stores across the UK, as well as 10 international markets, including Germany, Belgium, and Asia. In the last 12 months alone, the online business has seen in excess of 4000% growth, maintaining its spot as Amazon's choice for good health snacks. So you can certainly say Cathy knows what she's doing when it comes to running a Beautiful Business. I hope you enjoy the interview. We're gonna talk about leading with authenticity and something that comes through through all the conversations I've had with you, Cathy, is this level of authenticity and wearing your kind of heart on your sleeve. But when we set up this call, we talked a bit about how clarity and honesty kind of guides you. It lights the way for you. And, and we know it's not easy to launch a business, to grow a business into a proper business,

Cathy Moseley: 49:11

proper business.

Yiuwin Tsang: 49:12

I know And I think one of the big things, certainly certainly from my personal experience, but, but as it grows and as you, as you build the team and you get more clients on and stuff like this the sense of responsibility grows and that can get, that can get quite big. and can get quite overwhelming as well. What's your approach to making sure that you keep the right mindset so that you can keep on taking Boundless forward. You can keep on leading your team, you know, in the right direction.

Cathy Moseley: 49:36

Yeah. I think, look, I think for me is the fact that you've got to have the goals. You've gotta keep to that mission. Okay. What was our goals and everything else, you know, and try to stay because it's so easy to be pulled off the path of the goals. And, you know, I find LinkedIn the most stressful inducing app there is out there. I mean, you know, I'm kind of like living my life, like it's golden, best life, 24 7, you think, oh my God, Why aren't we in there? Why are we doing, oh my God. Get, get a bit on LinkedIn and like, say some really lovely positive stuff. When all I really wanna say is, oh my God, is anyone else putting up with this shit that I am today? You know, all that kinda stuff. So I think it's to stay on your path and to constantly go back over that path. So, you know, every few months go back, okay, here's our path, where was our path? And I think an element of control is needed in this absolutely discombobulating situation that you are in, you know, where you are getting left field left, right. And centre things are changing. I mean, I have this saying that and I stick by this in terms of when you start a business or a startup, you're gonna have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable because otherwise you are definitely in the wrong game. And I think that's probably, if you can allow that in yourself, then nothing will be that big. I mean, the thing that would keep me awake at night and it is the only thing that would really keep me awake right. Is making sure my staff are alright. You know, it's making sure my team is A OK you know, making sure we've got the money in the bank to pay that team, you know, because they rely on me to make sure that happens. I rely on them to help that happen, but I'm there at the head, making sure making those decisions and they come first, you know, and I think that is really the essential thing. So keeping on that path of our goal of what we want to do as a brand and where we want to go is making sure that that part of it is always locked and always, so that helps me make the decisions when we are taking on new rate retailers or, you know, new customers or what we're gonna spend in marketing or what we're gonna spend on here or here, you know, Ultimately the biggest thing I spend my time on is thinking about finance. You know, it's what I always, the rest of the guys are doing all the real hard work. I'm kind of thinking, you know, finance and the goal. And as we all know, unfortunately, without keeping your eye on those numbers, you don't have a business for all the goodwill in the world. You, you don't have anything. So I think, yeah, I think being comfortable with being uncomfortable is something that you have to totally get into your psyche over. And I think in that way, I think that helps you. I think it helps you feel like that's, you know, we have problems all time. I imagine when I get off here, there's gonna be 20 messages on Slack going, I can't believe this happened. What are we gonna do? Blah, blah, blah. You know, all that. So we we're a startup, you know, we are a little dinghy. We're not the Titanic, you know, hopefully won't sink like that either. But anyway, but you know, And I think you, you need, you need to stay on that path of the goal and the mission and try not to get too deviated from that. Innovate. Sure. But know what it is. That is the biggest thing that you have to deal with as a team leader and mine is to make sure everyone's okay and make sure that they are paid and all of that kind of stuff. And that's, that's the first thing for me.

Yiuwin Tsang: 53:25

It's an interesting point that you make about get trying to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And it's a really lovely way of putting it, cuz I think, I think that's right. It's because that, to me speaks a lot about having a, a, a mindset that I know it sounds really cheesy, but it's that whole, like, don't talk to me about problems. Talk to me about solutions. And I know that's like probably like out of turn in terms of, you know, the direction that we're going in with this, but the principle of, you know when hand grenades are being thrown at you rather than kind of like, you know, thinking, oh my gods it's a hand grenade it's yeah. Is almost kinda thinking, you know, ultimately, as, as a business owner, these things will happen, continue to happen. You how big you get they need to be dealt with. And the it's almost kind of the quicker you can adapt to getting into the mindset of. We can fix this, you know, there is a way, you know, fuck it. We'll find a way, you know, the sooner you can get onto the finding away part, the sooner you can resolve that challenge.

Cathy Moseley: 54:23

Exactly. But I think the thing is when you, when you've got a team in your work very collaboratively, you're gonna find a solution way quicker than if you're just thinking about yourself. You know? So I think there's, there's that element, but it's also, it's also being able to cut through the minutiae, okay. Hand grenades going off at you, which ones you need to catch first, you know? Okay. Right. Okay. You know, let's catch that because, okay. That's go. But that's a little bit further over, so we're probably gonna, we're gonna be alright, but this is one literally about to drop on our head. Let's catch that. And I think also it's that, it's that feeling like you said, like, you know, comfortable being uncomfortable and everything else is that we sell snacks. Right. We sell snacks. We, you know, come on guys. We we'll be okay. You know, it's, it's not, you know, as much as I love our business and what we do and our mission and where we're going and changing the world and gut health and everything else. We make can sell snacks. You know, no one, no, one's, life's on the line here. Let's come on. Let's think about this. Let's try. And

Yiuwin Tsang: 55:25

it's a perspective, isn't it? It's been grounded and you, and, and making the best decisions from a place where, you know, you're not under duress and then I guess this says a lot about how much pressure do we put on ourselves under, as business leaders and, and having that sense of perspective or not losing that sense of perspective.

Cathy Moseley: 55:45

I agree. I mean, and I think that's, it's really important because. You're consumed by your business. And I think if you weren't consumed, you know, you're probably not gonna make it at the very beginning. You need to eat, live, breathe, sleep, love it more than my husband. He's gonna hate this when he hears this, of course not. You know, all this kind of stuff. It's, it's my child. It's everything to me. And, but you do have to make sure that you have a grip on reality and you put those things into perspective and you know, that there are, you know, and I think we've just been through pandemic and let's face it, it's probably the worst crisis of all time, not just from a health people and what happens to people, but also from a business point of view, you know, you have been probably through the worst choppy, uncharted territory waters ever. And I think that teaches you a. You know, whether you've made it, you've got through it or whether you didn't get through it in terms of, you know, if you're entrepreneurial, you'll think of something else and something else will happen for you. And I'm a really big believer of that just cuz you tried it once doesn't mean you shouldn't try it again. You know, if that didn't work. But I think that teaches you lots and. If you use the pandemic as a, as a real example, you know, there are people dying, you know, absolutely destitute and everything else, and you are thinking about what can we do? You gotta get, get things in perspective. You know, I think that's, it's really important because otherwise I think you can burn out really quickly because you will give it your all. You'll need to give it all your all. And I think also I think you'll lose sight of why you started it, you know? And you know, like for me, like I said, I started it for all those reasons I've explained, but I also want to start a different culture in working environment because of one I'd come from before. And if I start to do that, I'm only back to where I was before. And, what have I gained?

Yiuwin Tsang: 57:45

Yeah.

Cathy Moseley: 57:45

You know, that sounds a bit selfish, doesn't it? But it's kind of like, you know,

Yiuwin Tsang: 57:49

It makes perfect sense. Cause I think, I think our roles as, as business leaders and as, as founders of businesses and, and certainly leaders of teams is we, we have our fair share of the doing that needs to be done, but I, I feel like it's that decision making, you know, it's that direction of travel. It's, it's plotting the course and it's about defining that vision and making sure we're on the path to achieving those sorts of things. And the better we look after ourselves to be able to make those sorts of decisions, the better it is for every. So, so yeah,

Cathy Moseley: 58:18

well, yeah, I mean, selling gut health linked to my mind, you know, and your mental health would be a little bit mad for us to be selling something to somebody and us talking about it and then literally ourselves completely stressing our mental health on the next level. I mean, of course, I mean like any business, you're the classic Swan you're gliding under you. Like it's peddling and peddling, but it, it it's really important to not overload because it's, it's hard. And I, and I I'm, you know, I'm practically probably a workaholic in some ways. But I do need to like walk my dog or I go running in the morning. I need that time to kind of reassess and set my mind and stuff like that. And I it's, it's really important because, you know,

Yiuwin Tsang: 59:04

I couldn't agree more. I think that the that whole kind of self self-help bit, but that wellbeing part again, there's, I guess there are many kind of facets to that in, in the sense that just from a, just from a health perspective, you know, if you're not looking after yourself and if you get sideline because not looking after your health, then the, the business suffers, your team suffers, your client suffers. So, so that's a big kind of like negative. And the other part is, and being your optimum self, making the best decisions, you know, and being as efficient and a productive as you can. But then there's also the message that you send to your team. Right. You know, if you're like, you know, if you're not looking after yourself, if you're burning out, you're stressed out.

Cathy Moseley: 59:42

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I've seen that before in previous roles and, you know, you feel like, oh my God, I better be in the office because he's in the office, you know? Oh my God, you know, that kind of stuff. And you know, you don't get, like I say, I think go back to that kind of work culture. I, you know, we've evolved haven't we thank God. And you know, you don't get the best outta people. You, you, you don't because you know, we we are intelligent beings, but we can only take so much and you don't get someone, you know, brain to switch full, gear if they haven't had a break or they haven't been able to like relax down or kind of add that zone out or whatever it is. And you're never gonna optimize and your business and the mission will suffer.

Yiuwin Tsang: 1:00:27

How as a founder, it can be difficult to do the right thing loads and loads of challenges. And, and, and, and you really need to kind of show your kind of authenticity. What do you see in that? Where are the challenges I suppose in terms of doing that right thing, because it wraps up in that whole honesty piece. I feel, you know

Cathy Moseley: 1:00:44

yeah. I, I, I think, look, there's lots of multifacet things that can change your honesty and can change trying to do the right thing. I mean, investment for a start, you know, people invest in your business. What's the revenue, what's the, what's the profit, what's all of this, you know, so I think. You, you've got to, you've got to look to that. And obviously we've had investment as a business and everything else, but I think that also comes back to the, the right kind of investment goes back to, again, your core values. What do you want out of somebody to invest in your business? Well, ultimately you want money, but do you want them to be the right people that are investing? Are they, are they gonna understand your mission and what you do? So I think that in itself, Really helps you, because again, otherwise you're gonna just have someone beating on your door saying, yeah, that's great that you, you know, it's great that you, you give a percentage of our business, which we do to Frank Walter charity, you know, and stuff like that. It's great. You're doing that. But you know, your profitability is only this and I want it to be this, so cut them, you know, that kind of stuff. And you're like, what should I do? So I think that is really important if most people and most businesses in this day and age take investment, you know? So I think that is key, as we said, without money, you can't do anything anyway. It's very difficult. So I think that, I think. Honesty in terms of authenticity is, is sticking to your guns about what you wanted to do as that brand, conveying that to your consumer. You know, making sure they understand those values and authenticity and in, and also within the team and that kind of stuff in all in overall, but it's you, it comes back to you, you know, and how authentic you are. You know, lots of people, you know, talk the talk, but not necessarily do the walk. And I'm not saying that's easy and I'm not trying to preach to anyone you, you crack on and do what you wanna do. But if, if you wanna build a business for a reason, that's got an ethical point behind it, in the sense for me, I feel my gut health move and to change people's health is the value of what we're about. Then if you really want to do that, then you're gonna have to make some hard decisions. And they won't always be the best commercial decisions you can make, but they will be authentic and they will be part of your mission. And I think that is something you shouldn't lose sight of. It, it it's hard. But you, you shouldn't lose sight of, but who said it was gonna be easy? You know, let's face it. If everyone said it was gonna be easy, you should stop right now. Put your pen down and walk away. So yeah, I just think, you know, come on. I think if we, if we really wanna change the world we live in and we really wanna change what we all do and make ourselves a, a better planet, a better people, then you're gonna have to make some hard choices. And, but you're not alone. I would say you're not alone. There's loads of people out there trying to do the right thing and yeah, stick with it. You can do it!.

Yiuwin Tsang: 1:03:55

Cathy, that was brilliant. I really enjoyed that.

Cathy Moseley: 1:03:58

Thank you for asking me to do this. It's a real pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to our Beautiful Business podcast and a huge thank you to Cathy Mosley from Boundless Activated Snacking for being a wonderful guest.