What does it really mean to be inclusive? Nicole Green chats to Yiuwin Tsang about how we can create an environment that is welcoming and celebrates the fullness of every person both in the workplace and in our marketing communications. Learn more on this episode!
Nicole co-founded Catch, a B-Corp certified communications agency for impact-driven brands and leaders of high-growth businesses. She is a firm believer that businesses have the power to do good. Catch is an international team of communications consultants working on campaigns spanning food and drink, health, sustainability, and finance to shape conversations and drive meaningful change from campaigning on inclusivity in the period industry to unpicking greenwashing and promoting transparency in supply chains.
Her background in journalism inspired her career in PR and has seen her develop award-winning media campaigns, strategies, and offer counsel to global business leaders. She is passionate about inclusivity in workplaces and general quality in business, and has a commitment to building a flexible, diverse, and progressive working environment.
What does it really mean to be inclusive? Nicole Green chats to Yiuwin Tsang about how we can create an environment that is welcoming and celebrates the fullness of every person both in the workplace and in our marketing communications. Learn more on this episode!
Nicole co-founded Catch, a B-Corp certified communications agency for impact-driven brands and leaders of high-growth businesses. She is a firm believer that businesses have the power to do good. Catch is an international team of communications consultants working on campaigns spanning food and drink, health, sustainability, and finance to shape conversations and drive meaningful change from campaigning on inclusivity in the period industry to unpicking greenwashing and promoting transparency in supply chains.
Her background in journalism inspired her career in PR and has seen her develop award-winning media campaigns, strategies, and offer counsel to global business leaders. She is passionate about inclusivity in workplaces and general quality in business, and has a commitment to building a flexible, diverse, and progressive working environment.
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, and I'm part of the Beautiful Business team. And this week I was joined by Nicole Green. Nicole is a co-founder of Catch, a communications agency for impact driven brands and leaders of high growth businesses. Nicole's a firm believer that businesses have the power to do good. It is on this belief that she founded Catch, a certified B-Corp, where an international team of communications consultants working on campaigns spanning food and drink health, sustainability, and finance to shape conversations and drive meaningful change from campaigning on inclusivity in the period industry to unpicking, greenwashing and promoting transparency in supply chains. Her background in journalism inspired her career in PR and has seen her develop award-winning media campaigns, strategies, and offer council to global business leaders. She is passionate about inclusivity in workplaces and general quality in business, and has a commitment to building a flexible, diverse, and progressive working environment. I hope you enjoy the discussions. We're gonna talk a bit about the importance of inclusivity. And it's a word that gets used a lot these days in, in lots of different contexts. But what does it mean to you, Nicole, in terms of people, in terms of culture?
Nicole Green:I'm obviously here with sort of two hats on. So one, I run a business, I hire people I have to create and foster a culture, but also I run communications campaigns for the clients that I work with. So the two are very linked in terms of how you create an inclusive culture and then what you say to the world about it. So for me, in terms of inclusivity it's really baked into everything that we do as a business. So it's very easy just to think about that being the people that you hire, but also are you creating an inclusive workforce. So, as me, as a parent, I hope that I have created a very inclusive workforce for parents to come and work for me, which means that they are free to do whatever they need to do to look after their children without pressure or stress that you know, they can bring their whole selves to work. But also that kind of moves into the work that we do for clients. So it's about representing the fullness of every individual in everything that you do. So if you are running a communications campaign, it might be talking to every single person. You know to people who are within the groups that you want to be talking about or representing and being inclusive of thought, lived experience culture and then making sure that that is based in reality, I guess.
Yiuwin Tsang:That's really good. So just kind of just separating those two out for just for a second there. But when you talk about your views on inclusivity as the owner of a business is running a business and creating this space, it sounds like it's a great place to work and it attracts the right kind of people, people who share similar sort of values with you and that phrase, they bring their best selves to work. But from an employer's perspective, that, that's like the secret sauce isn't it? That's the bit which unlocks that discretionary bit of productivity where people go that extra mile, not because they're paid to, not because they're made to do it because they want to do it.
Nicole Green:Yeah, definitely. And I think inclusivity is really hard because, When you first start intentionally being inclusive, which you have to be, it can feel like you are losing stuff, so on a practical level, it might be I'm losing that employee for an hour a day while they leave to pick up their child from school or. I'm losing efficiency in hiring because I'm having to go to a wider pool of people and make the effort and reach out to specific organisations to help me hire from a more diverse pool and it goes on. But actually to your point, what you are getting back is so much greater. So from day one, we set up Catch knowing that we wanted to create an inclusive workforce, that's not what we called it, but essentially a place that prioritised people's personal lives over what happened at work. So whether that's health, family, relationships, you know, and that means that on a day to day basis, the people that work for us, I hope they tell us, you know, feel incredibly motivated to come to work every day and they really love working for us, which unlocks productivity. So yeah, it's a win-win from my perspective, but that's not what systemically has been the case. So I think it can feel to some people who are at the beginning of that journey as being a bit of a lose lose, right. So yeah, there's lots of ways in which that can be brought to life. But ultimately I think you have to see that it is an added benefit if you can bake inclusivity into the workplace.
Yiuwin Tsang:So true. And with everything in the news at the minute that we're hearing that the recession is incoming and we've been through, you know, recessions and downturns in our time and that is when you, you have this thing, I think it's called survivor syndrome, where you have people that's remain in companies, but they look for other roles elsewhere because they've had a realisation or they understand there's more to life than their kind of nine to five and the four walls around them when they work, whereas having this inclusive culture will help strengthen that, I don't wanna say loyalty, but it is almost that, you know, it's, it's this kind of, it's almost like this discretionary connection that you have with your team, with your boss, with your company, with your work.
Nicole Green:Yeah, I mean, it's just about like human connection at the end of the day. Right. And I think, you know, there's been this term, again, 'quiet quitting' this year, and that comes from people who don't feel valued and emotionally engaged with the work they're doing. Right. It's coming in, doing the job and leaving again and if that's all you are doing, then if the pressure's on or you think you're gonna get paid more elsewhere, or it's a transactional, you know, relationship, then of course you'll leave. Whereas if you feel that you are valued as a whole person and your work and you are able to live your life alongside that work and you feel that that work is valuable, then you're gonna stick around hopefully. Unless another similar role comes up and you feel equally valued, but it's not as common as you would like to think.
Yiuwin Tsang:No. No, it's not. And it is really interesting and you mentioned the word authenticity or being authentic a couple of times, just within five minutes of us starting this conversation. And I do wonder when it comes to wearing your other hat and the comms piece here, in your experience why do brands, why do organisations, what is the deal with inclusivity in terms of their communication? Why are they doing it? Why is it important that they do it?
Nicole Green:I mean, I don't think they have traditionally. And I think many, many organisations still don't. So I guess, you know, are we talking about being inclusive in our communications? Are we talking about communication for, you know, a positive impact, greater purpose? I think all of these things kind of come under the bucket of, you know, purpose led communications, which I think is an overused term. But if we're talking about externally communicating inclusively, that's really, really hard because it's nuanced and you're never going to be able to include every person's life experience. But it comes back to this point of being really intentional and authentic again about, you know, incorporating the views of a broad set of people and truly representing those. So we were just thinking earlier on today about an example to bring that to life. And I think not that many people will have missed the Pepsi for All with Kendall Jenner when the Black Lives Matter protests happened. You know, that was something that was so inauthentic and so non-inclusive because not only do Pepsi not particularly have a very like clear track record on standing up for the rights of black people, but equally, you know, it was just such a kind of transparent commercial objective for them to be in on a conversation around, you know, the George Floyd murder and that lacked authenticity, it lacked integrity, and it didn't represent the voices of those involved. So all of those things meant that it was a bit of a disaster whereas, you know, other campaigns, so Nike, using Colin Kaepernick and, and Taking the Knee, which was a really brave campaign, you know, ultimately was way more successful. And again, I'm using inverted commas there Because it was representative of the voice of people, and it was inclusive. That means that it was controversial and it, you know, maybe lost favour with some people and gained favour with others. But that authenticity and bravery paid off in the end. So it can be nuanced in terms of what I mean by inclusivity and I guess, purpose-led communication, but it comes down to you know how brave you want to be and how honest you want to be in terms of the messaging that you're putting out into the world.
Yiuwin Tsang:Hmm. The most recent John Lewis ad I think has had a bit of a polarised effect on the public as a whole in terms of what is and I found it quite surprising in many ways. But again, it comes back to that piece about a brand being quite brave. And understanding that there would be, you know, a diverse range of opinions and different ways that it would kind of land. I mean, what kind of guidance would you give to your clients in terms of, you know, almost kind of weighing up what the impact could be, because I guess that must be quite high on the considerations list when you're crafting these messages, when you're crafting the communications for these.
Nicole Green:Yeah, you can constantly turn yourselves in circles on it because there is always another perspective to be had. So the John Lewis one is actually a really good example because we internally had diversity of thought on that. So I saw it and with my um, personal lived experience thought isn't this a beautiful ad? Like raising awareness of something that isn't on the agenda at this time of year, you know? Really beautifully put together, made me cry. Powerful. Bang, bang. Brilliant. Done. And then my co-founder called me who's actually on maternity leave, whose sister works in the care sector and presented a very different view to me and said, you know, this is actually really problematic because lots of people who have either been in the care sector or having their children taken away from them will find this really difficult. Not every person going into care has this beautiful glittery, shiny view of what it looks like to enter into a, you know, a home, and, and that was just like, that's a perfect example of what happens almost every day in our job where you're given pause for thought and you go, okay, actually I need to extend my, kind of, my range of thinking. So I'm including more perspectives here. And it is a constant journey and it's something that you are, you are always having to wrangle with. The reality is, is that John Lewis is putting out a really depressing advert about what it's really like to go into a home, you know, at Christmas, or somebody having their children taken away from them is not going to make an advert for Christmas. So like there's no happy medium there, but you know equally is, like you say, it can be polarising, but if you are being truly inclusive, maybe you wouldn't have made that ad. I don't know. We often talk about the power of the middle ground. So one of the campaigns that we did with our client Callaly many years ago was basically to try to create a middle ground within the conversation about periods for women, because there had traditionally been decades of marketing focused on women, which was either, you know, periods are shameful and we don't talk about them. Or the only way to have a period is to be rollerskating around with white knickers on, you know, happy as Larry. And then we kind of moved away from that and almost got into this kind of glorification of periods, which were like to celebrate blood it's like toxic positivity around periods basically you're supposed to absolutely adore your period. And we came to that thinking, okay, there's actually a whole world of people and lived experiences that aren't being represented. Whether that's a trans man that's going through transition, that's, you know, is learning to, to deal with the emotions around having periods. Or, it's somebody who's disabled and doesn't feel represented or has accessibility issues in terms of buying period products or it's a Muslim woman who's also had a difficult experience with her period growing up. So there's this kind of power in the middle ground that we sometimes talk about, which is not necessarily taking a polarised view, but exploring just surfacing the stories in the middle. And that I think is really exciting, especially in the world at the moment, which is so binary and you know, there's so much identity politics around, I think that if you can do it well, being able to navigate that nuance is incredibly powerful from a communication standpoint anyway.
Yiuwin Tsang:A hundred percent. And I think it comes back to what you were saying just now, Nicole, about being deliberately inclusive. It sounds like in order for you to be deliberately inclusive, then you do have to be hugely more considerate and look at all the different shades across, you know, the comms that you make and what you might do. And I guess thinking back to the John Lewis, that again, and it's not simply just thinking about, well, how many clicks are we gonna get here? Or how many views are we gonna get, how many shares we're gonna get? But it's actually digging deeper in terms of, well, who else does this message reach? How are they gonna be affected by it?
Nicole Green:Yeah, and what's the objective? Is the objective to make a Christmas ad that everyone talks about? Or is the objective to actually help people in care? Right. And it can be both. And this like comes back to the core of like, what I believe in, in general is like business can be a force for good profit and purpose and not, you know, mutually exclusive. And you can create a beautiful ad that also has a positive impact, but sometimes you have to balance the two, and they've clearly wanted to make a really beautiful Christmas ad. And some people think that that's not necessarily been the most helpful to those in care. So I think it is a balance. I think another interesting example is the other thing that's on the top of the agenda at the moment is obviously the World Cup in Qatar. Boycots, left, right and centre. Conversations around, you know, who should/shouldn't be there, but Just a month ago, we were celebrating Virgin Atlantic. They allowed anybody to wear whatever uniform they wanted, so essentially completely gender inclusive. But they've removed that rule for flights to Qatar, so I'm like, that's not authentic. You have no integrity. So from my perspective, if you are a brand that's gonna put yourself out there on a pedestal and do that, then you have to stay true to, you know, to those aims. Whether you agree with my view or not, that's fine. But I, I think that's a good example of how a brand can maybe flip flop on its purpose a little bit to accommodate commercial objectives.
Yiuwin Tsang:Mm, no, indeed. And that, again, that's another kind of interesting piece. I suppose that comes through and I guess it again, comes from that deeper thinking that you need to put into being inclusive and thinking about the different communities that you reach, the different individuals that you may connect with in terms of the messaging that you send out. I've got another question here. This is kinda just flipping it back over, I suppose, in terms of having that inclusive kind of workplace, one of the things I guess especially, you know, with the pressure that comes with hiring and building a team and things like this and I suppose it does link into that kind of external kind of communication if your external communication is about how inclusive you are as an organisation. It's something that you want to be proud of and certainly you feel like, you know you wanna let people know about. One of the key things and one of the key challenges when you're running a business is, is hiring, getting the right people into the business and it can be a really expensive mistake to make if the wrong people come in There are lots of instances where if you ask employers what, you know, what's their D&I policy when it comes to hiring people. Responses come back, include things like, we just hire the best person for the role. What's your view on that from your perspective as a business owner? Because again, I think it's another one of those balance challenges in many ways, but I'm keen to hear what you have to say on it.
Nicole Green:Yeah, so I think it's a journey I've been on because I work in an industry that is very famously not diverse, so middle class white people basically predominantly in the PR and comms industry, and for a long time, I was just like, it's just so hard to find people who are not, who don't fit that bill. And honestly, I, I just think it's that you're not making enough effort and you're not trying hard enough and you're not, so when people say to me, we just hire the right person for the job, ultimately, I think it's, it's laziness and an indication that you are so deeply entrenched in the systemic challenges that, you know, we're facing in terms of diversity that you can't see the reality of, of what's outside that. So it doesn't make sense to me that you're hiring the best person for the job when society only surfaces certain types of people for a job. So I think you can still find the best person for the job, but it's about making the effort, putting in the processes, checking your biases to ensure that those people who are the right people for the job aren't just coming from a very small pool of people. Because I can guarantee there will be the good people for the job from other pools of people as well. So in our industry there are specific organisations that exist to help people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, cuz that's something that I think is often lost in these conversations. People often look at, you know, racial diversity, but they're not necessarily looking at socioeconomic factors. You know, accessibility and like disability as well. Something that is, I think, harder to access. Neurodiversity, people don't often prioritise that in terms of their hiring decisions. So, you know, and certainly within creative industries, I think one thing that is really important goes back to your original point, is diversity of thought and experience is absolutely crucial. Like having all like the same people, having the group think in a room is just not going to create the best work. So, you know, especially when it comes to creative campaigns, through which you're trying to deliver an inclusive message. So yeah, I personally kind of don't have any patience for people saying, we just need to hire the right person for the job. You know, it ties into the conversation about quotas on boards. Like, oh, well that's not fair because you're prioritising somebody that's well. Society has prioritised a very small group of people for the last however many, hundreds of years. So just set the record straight on that.
Yiuwin Tsang:I couldn't agree with you more, Nicole, and you, you, and you put it so eloquently there as well. I think it does come across as that. It comes back to that bit about being deliberately inclusive and, but also at the same time understanding what that actually means. It means having to go that extra mile. It means putting in the effort and not, as you say, just falling back and then blaming the system. And, and using that almost as an excuse to not do what's right. And I love that point you made around diversity of thought as well. And I think people, you know, they perhaps they find comfort in surrounding themselves with people that look, sound and think like they do. And maybe there's some kind of deep seated insecurities there. I don't know, but the fact that it stifles growth, it stifles innovation, you get this kind of almost kind of confirmation bias and you end up, you know, running off the edge of a cliff because everybody says, yeah, it's a good idea. And that could be, that could be really deadly to a business.
Nicole Green:Yeah, I mean, look, and it happens all the time. It is a constant effort. You're not like, oh, now I'm inclusive as a person. Like, you have to consistently check your biases. You have to consistently make sure that you're making the effort because it's not a natural place for us to be in. So we've been interviewing for a new role, and Simran who works for me just said, you know, I really like these people, but they look and sound quite like us. Are we missing a trick here? And that's like the kind of conversation that we consistently need to have in the business. And that's not to say that we won't hire those people, but like, are we being intentional and are we being aware of the fact that we're being sort of led down a garden path with those people and they look like us and sound like us again? And are we actually just being lazy? Right? And it is hard because then you're like, but I really like that person. And you're like, as a person hiring people, it's difficult cuz you sometimes have to say no and give chances to other people who, you know, don't look like you or sound like you. But again, comes back to the point of me not believing that you don't have to hire the best person for the job just because of that. But yeah, it's a constant, constant work.
Yiuwin Tsang:Always, always. And it is interesting how it reflects from just in terms of your role from running a business and making sure that you are deliberately inclusive to advising others on their comms, on and around being inclusive be that, that they are looking to engage with a diverse and be more inclusive in, and, and it wouldn't be more inclusive in terms of the communities and the people that they're trying to reach, but also in terms of their own kind of inclusivity and comms that comes out of it. It's effort. It's hard work. It's an investment of time, effort, and energy.
Nicole Green:It's all really hard work and I think, you know, whatever you want to call it, social purpose is really hard and expensive and not the easiest route, but you know, that's not why you're doing it, right? Hopefully.
Yiuwin Tsang:Why are you doing it then, Nicole? What's the driver behind you and Catch and things like this? What's the upside for you?
Nicole Green:That is a very interesting question. It was never an intention for me to set up an agency that was purpose led. It actually started from the fact that we wanted to create a very inclusive workplace that prioritised health and wellbeing of people that worked within it and to have good relationships with the clients that we work for. And that's because there is a problem within the industry that I work in where we don't prioritise those things. Much like other industries, the tech, whatever, there's burnout, there's presenteeism, there's poor client relationships, there's lack of transparency, there's lack of trust, and it's exhausting. And we thought there was a better way of doing it. At the same time before purpose really was a thing, we knew that we wanted to work with businesses that had a positive impact on the world. Because as I said, I really believe that you can balance profit and purpose that, you know, being a business and creating growth is one of the best ways that you can drive social progress. So helping businesses that are doing that. Is the reason why I get up in the morning. It just so happens that over the course of the last seven years, this has become something that has just grown exponentially and now has a multitude of names. And, you know, every business has a mission which creates other problems around mission washing and greenwashing, all of those things. So, it's not like I woke up one day and thought, right, this is what I believe. But it came from a very strong internal view that business can be a force for good in the world. I help businesses communicate. Communication is one of the most powerful things that businesses can do to drive change. So that's where you get to where I am.
Yiuwin Tsang:Big thank you to Nicole Green from Catch for joining us on this week's Beautiful Business podcast.