This week, Beautiful Business's co-founder, Peter Czapp, is our host. He is joined by Ellie Hale, Managing Director of The Agency Collective. Ellie became MD of The Agency Collective just over a year ago. This interview explores her motivations, what she's learned about leadership, the challenges she's faced, and how she's overcome them. It's a fascinating insight into what happens when you have a clear purpose that you pursue with passion.
The Agency Collective is an international peer support community for agency owners. A safe place for agency owners to talk about challenges openly. The Agency Collective also give agency owners an opportunity to build new long-lasting relationships with people who can provide support and leads for future work
This week, Beautiful Business's co-founder, Peter Czapp, is our host. He is joined by Ellie Hale, Managing Director of The Agency Collective. Ellie became MD of The Agency Collective just over a year ago. This interview explores her motivations, what she's learned about leadership, the challenges she's faced, and how she's overcome them. It's a fascinating insight into what happens when you have a clear purpose that you pursue with passion.
The Agency Collective is an international peer support community for agency owners. A safe place for agency owners to talk about challenges openly. The Agency Collective also give agency owners an opportunity to build new long-lasting relationships with people who can provide support and leads for future work
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the Beautiful Business Podcast. I'm Peter Czapp, co-founder of the Beautiful Business Community, and this week I have the great pleasure of chatting with someone I know really well, the wonderful Ellie Hale. Ellie is the Managing Director at the Agency Collective, a brilliant peer support community for agency owners with hundreds of members that they help to run happier, healthier agencies. The Agency Collective is a business that I co-founded nine years ago, and it's been a joy to watch Ellie grow into a leadership role and take the business to the next level. Ellie is on a mission. She's using the Agency Collective as a force for good, championing campaigns that support women in agencies, as well as increasing awareness of what it takes to be a truly diverse, equitable, and inclusive business. This interview explores Ellie's motivations, what she's learned about leadership, the challenges she's faced, and how she's overcome them. It's a fascinating insight into what happens when you have a clear purpose that you pursue with passion. I hope you enjoy the interview. I certainly did. So Ellie, how did you end up here? Tell us a little bit about your career before the Agency Collective.
Ellie Hale:Oh, Pete, how did I end up here? Like what a roller coaster journey to become Managing Director of the Agency Collective. Started off well, like you did, we've both got backgrounds in and degree in law. That's what I did first off. But I always had a real creative flare and I always wanted to be on the stage. I always wanted to be an actress, so I went to drama school for a year and I was an actress for a couple of years. Did alright. Managed to pay my rent by being an actress and then really stupidly moved to Australia, followed my heart. Went for love, which didn't work out, but lived in Australia for five years. And I think something about being an actress really taught me about marketing yourself, I guess it's like personal branding before personal branding was a thing. And how you yourself could be a product that you sell. So I got quite used to the sort of networking patter speaking to people, speaking at events. And so I guess business development was something I fell quite naturally into. So I was part of the founding team that started Groupon in Australia and New Zealand, which was talk about like startup culture, that was crazy wild old times over there. But really cut my teeth into sales being an actual career, something that you can learn, a skill that you can develop. You know, it's not like phoning people at tea time trying to flog 'em some insurances, there's a real skill to sales and I really enjoyed it. So when I moved back to the UK, I got more into the e-learning space and software. From then I was in email marketing and had heard about the Agency Collective and actually pursued the Agency Collective, like a hound, maybe not that desperate, but just kept, you know, popping my head up being like any jobs cuz it just sounded like such a bloody nice thing to be around. And I think in sales it can become quite toxic, quite negative. You can get really lost in the cycle of sales without it really mattering what you're selling or what the purpose is. So my goal there and the, the pivotal moment for me there was wherever I work, whatever I do, it has to have some meaning and it has to have some impact. And I could really see the potential for me to make some changes within the Agency Collective as it was then and have a lot of fun doing it. So finally well, you and Dan relented and let me in, first off, so getting to know agencies, bringing them on board. Then within that role I could see perhaps a bit of a disconnect between what we were offering versus what the true community experience was for our members, for our agencies that were living, breathing, paying their membership every month. So then moved into community management and then from running the community, getting through like a global pandemic, having a baby. Yeah. Finally got to the MD position, which was quite a lot of graft and quite a lot of persuading. Yeah, but finally Pete you relented and gave me the job, so thanks for that.
Peter Czapp:Something I'm curious of is running a business always something you'd envisage you'd do? And if not, at what point did you think I fancy doing that?
Ellie Hale:Oh, I remember when I left drama school and I decided that maybe acting wasn't for me anymore because you need such a tough skin to be in the acting gig. It's constant rejection. It's constantly being too fat, too thin, too white, too quiet, too loud. It's always personally on you and you are the reason why you're not getting gigs. So I was thinking about, you know, what skills I've got and how I could slot those in what transferable skills I had. And I remember my friend Dave saying to me, you just need to be in charge of something. You just really need to be in charge of something. You need to tell the people what to do, have your ideas and just run something yourself. And I thought, yeah, and thinking back. I've always had the entrepreneurial spirit myself. I started a little events company called Merrymaking. I started and still do have a mental health first aid training consultancy that is my side hustle and very much still passion of mine. Even back to like uni days when I used to be a Preloved Reseller on eBay, you know, buy stuff with the full intention of selling it on to make a profit. So I've always had that entrepreneurial spirit. I guess what I didn't have and what perhaps I still don't have is the like finesse and polish. So I'm working on that. I'm good at the heart and the instinct and the ideas. But definitely the polish, the forward thinking, the forward planning, that's what I'm constantly trying to work on.
Peter Czapp:If it's any consolation, we're all working on that as well. We're all trying to get the finesse and polish right.
Ellie Hale:Does it come, does it ever come?
Peter Czapp:The thing I've noticed is as you develop, as does the business, so just when you master the skills required to get your business to a certain point, you then need different skills to take it on to the next stage. So the answer is no. It's a never ending journey, but it's a really good fun one and I sense you're enjoying it too.
Ellie Hale:Yeah, absolutely.
Peter Czapp:On your journey and particularly stepping up into this leadership role, what's been the hardest thing about that?
Ellie Hale:The hardest thing, I guess, the buck really does stop with you. Before you know, I had aspirations of leadership and I, I probably have in maybe three or four positions prior to the Agency Collective, been doing the job of the Sales Manager, or I've been doing the job of the, the team leader, or I've been doing the job of the MD in everything but name, but I think it was a shocker of practically doing the job versus actually doing the job was a real difference. And that, that took me aback actually to think, hang on. No, it actually is me. I am, I am that boss now. I am the key decision maker. I am the one that has to make the call. And just trust myself and go with it. So that was a bit of an eye opener moving into a leadership role.
Peter Czapp:What are those differences? Were they very profound? Were they subtle? Cause you were doing, to all intents and purposes, in all but name the role of leading the business
Ellie Hale:yeah.
Peter Czapp:became MD. Talk me through the difference between doing it and then doing it with the title
Ellie Hale:that I didn't have that responsibility, Pete, I think that I didn't have that overwhelming, you know, like, you know when you have a kid and you bring them home and you just look at them and think, Christ. That's mine. I'm yours. And we've just gotta muddle on best we can. Before I could, you know, have a bit of a piss and moan, or I could whinge, or I could be like, oh, well if I was in charge, I'd do it like that. And then it's like, holy cow, I AM in charge. I could do all of the things like, which ones do I pick or how do I prioritise? Or where do I go with it? So, yeah, that was definitely an eye opener for me. As well, I suppose, when you're the leader of a team, especially when you're the leader of the community sometimes you don't get the pat on the back that maybe you deserve, or sometimes people don't recognise when you need that or when you could really do with that, and I, I really do believe in transparency with my team. You know, if there are struggles happening or, mental health challenges, like we really have an ethos of transparency. And I, I really do back that 100%. But again, when you are the leader and when you are the, the sort of figurehead and you're navigating a team, you still have to have that element of like, 'come on guys, let's do it. Let's rally, let's go, let's push, let's slap a smile on and crack on.' Cuz you know, that's what needs to be done. And I think that has taken a period of adjustment. Not that I need, like I don't need constant praise or like affirmation, but just a couple of moments in real hard graft or tricky times just to think Jesus Christ, I could do a, you know, bit of a hug. So that was an adjustment as well, I think.
Peter Czapp:And you talked about the buck stopping with you when taking on that responsibility. How much of it was a burden versus an exhilarating feeling of'yes, I can change this now, and what were those emotions like...
Ellie Hale:Oh, crikey, what a question. I guess it's completely dependent. It's changeable, isn't it? Day, day to day. Like sometimes you absolutely take the challenge on and you relish it, and I was like, yes, come on. I can go, you know, like making decisions in my style, in my way because we work together, Peter, so you know how I work, but I'm very instinctual and I very much lead from the heart and sometimes make decisions based on it being the right thing to do. Like I really lead with, we're gonna make this decision because it's the right thing to do. And sometimes can't justify it more than that. Or because it just feels right and I just know we need to go with it. So times like that, that's bloody amazing. That's like flipping hell. Let's go. I can back myself a hundred percent and let's do it. Versus the nerve wracking, nail biting ones, which I think are probably more financial more sort of the practical ones. You know, some tricky recruitment and retention challenges we've had along the way. Those are the ones that I think you can feel it lonely unless you've got a confidant, a business confidant or a mentor or an advisor that you can go to and say, hang on. Just hear me out. Can I just sense check this and that's what we've built a community on. That's the heart of what the Agency Collective is..
Peter Czapp:And where do you go for those conversations? The sense checking other than obviously speaking to me and we, we speak often, but is there anywhere else that you go to have those conversations?
Ellie Hale:No, it's you Pete. You are my soundboard. That is it. Hang on, should I question that? Should I get another one? An alternative advisor?
Peter Czapp:I was just curious. I was just curious.
Ellie Hale:You are my go-to. It's great talking to partners, isn't it? Or like friends, but they don't get it. And I think what we do at the AC and even just the nature of working with agencies like we do, it's so niche and it's so specialist. Like the conversations that we have or the journeys that people are on, you sort of have to be amongst it to understand it. You know, like my husband can empathise. You can nod and be very sweet and supportive. But unless you've been in the trenches, unless you've listened to the stories, unless you've seen like the actual, like magic and sparkle of why the hell would anyone wanna join that? Or why would an agency need to be part of that? Unless you've seen it, it's very hard to know what what kind of beast you're talking , I suppose. So, yeah. Sorry. I lean on you, Pete. You're the one.
Peter Czapp:That's fine. Happy to be the one. On your journey, so far, how far in into the role are you now in terms of years.
Ellie Hale:I think it's a year. I think maybe my anniversary might have come and gone.
Peter Czapp:Yeah. I, I feel it's a about that. So in that year, What have you learned so far? What have been the key lessons for you? I know there's been a few, but what are the ones that stand out?
Ellie Hale:My standout ones, trust my gut and don't ignore it. Because the occasions where I have had a feeling and inkling and instinct perhaps that something wasn't right, or perhaps that we should be going in a particular direction and have sat on it. Or have questioned it or have battled with it I've regretted, I haven't regretted acting on instinct quickly following through and going with it yet. I mean, we'll see. But thus far going with what I feel is right and making some quick, clear decisions has been the right thing thus far.
Peter Czapp:And how did you learn that cause you're very clear about that now.
Ellie Hale:Yeah.
Peter Czapp:And we are talking about this often, but how did you get to that realisation?
Ellie Hale:Yeah, I mean, I dunno how honest I can be really. But I had two quite similar hiring patterns. One I had an inkling that perhaps a hire wasn't quite right, but, wanted to lead with empathy, wanted to support, wanted to manage through that, which in reflection was the wrong thing to do because it was to the team's detriment. The next time that a similar situation arose, I knew to act quickly in everyone's best interest and not to be mean or not to be callous. But that the wrong fit for a team is the wrong fit for everybody. And I think that was a key lesson that actually is the kindest thing to do to, you know, free up a team member to go and find a team where they really belong. So that was sort of quite a highlight in terms of my learning and learning to trust myself for sure.
Peter Czapp:Yeah. so, we've heard that expression before. Trust your gut. Right. But do you think you kind of need to go through that journey to where you don't trust your gut, it doesn't go to plan to then really have it cemented or...
Ellie Hale:yeah, I think so. I think, but like anything you have to go through, like it can't be peachy all the time. Otherwise, how do you truly appreciate what you've got? You have to have those key challenges. You have to be pushed you have to be questioned on. Whether it's you questioning yourself, whether it's the accountability within your team within like higher powers, you have to go through that, I believe. And for me it was a really valuable learning curve.
Peter Czapp:What other lessons have you learned on your journey so far?
Ellie Hale:Don't do everything. I mean, I'm still learning that one to be honest. Like I'm still trying to convince myself that. So, basically, we could do bloody amazing things with the Agency Collective. We could have our fingers in all the pies. We could be doing, retreats for agency founders. We could be doing holidays for agency founders. We could be doing communities for freelancers. There are so many places we could take it, but like really, what's gonna be the most impactful right now? What's gonna be the most impactful in 12 months? And what are we the team gonna enjoy? I think when we've tried to go down some avenues that were perhaps just money spinners that weren't led from the heart, from our true intention and purpose. We've sort of lost our way a little bit and we've lost our focus on things that really matter, which is the member experience and them having a great time.
Peter Czapp:So how do you curtail that desire to take everything on? Cause it's exciting, right? There's all of these opportunities, and yet you have to try and find a way to focus. How do you do that?
Ellie Hale:Absolutely no idea, Pete. I'm still learning day by day. I've still got like a bazillion ideas running around my head. The key sort of passion projects that we have, have to be at the forefront of our minds. I don't want us to be an organisation that that just talks the talk without walking the walk. We need to live and breathe what our values are. We need to live and breathe what we are preaching to our members. And we need to be the real shining examples. We can't steer this community unless we do that. So if something's hitting those markers, then absolutely that needs to sort of jump to the top of the list. I think as well learning to lead and learning to let go. I think the two of those are very similar. Like I'm just one person, I can only do so much. And yeah, I work really bloody hard and I work really bloody long hours and I'm not afraid of the graft, but equally I'm just one person. Whereas what can a team of five of us do? What can a team of 10 of us do? So that is really my sort of benchmark. I have to let go. I have to delegate because we will be bigger, we will be better, we will do more. I've suffered really badly from FOMO, though. Old fear of missing out. I'm trying to relish the joy of missing out. But I want to get to a point with the team where they are so empowered to make decisions and come up with ideas and concepts with a community that I'm surprised and caught off guard and just bloody filled with joy because of what they've come up with and what they've carried out themselves. And that's, you know, that's what I need to be sort of judging on, do I need to do this really or can someone else do it? Or even am I the best person to do it? Cause probably not, not always.
Peter Czapp:Final lesson from your time? If you were to pick one more thing you've learnt along the way, what would you, what would you pick?
Ellie Hale:Yeah, another key lesson I think would be to not procrastinate. I saw a meme the other day, which was or someone's tweet or something that was like, I just did a 15 minute task. I've been putting off for 18 months. Will I learn from this? No. And I. I've got so many things on my to-do list where if I just cracked on, if I ate that frog, if I just did it like the world would be a happier place, I'd feel lighter and I'd feel brighter, I'd be a better leader as a result of just cracking on with that. Those bloody to-do list things I never tick off. So that's definitely been Sort of a key lesson as well. Don't procrastinate, get things done, try and start the day with a fresh list. A fresh set of intentions, fresh goals. Don't always get that right though, working on it.
Peter Czapp:I think we all are, again, more consolation for anyone listening. Something I'm curious to explore is when you're leading a team what that looks like for you or what does great leadership look like for you? Cause stepping up into this role has meant you're now responsible for a team. How do you go about leading in a way that works for you?
Ellie Hale:I'm really trying to create a culture within Agency Collective that I want to work in, that I would've wanted to work in that if I was outside looking in, I would think those guys are getting it right. And I'm not always getting it right, but I'm not a micromanager. It doesn't fit in with my style of working, it doesn't fit in with my personality type. I want to hire grownups that can be accountable, that can manage their workload. So, as a result of that, we have a crack on with your day, however, which way you like, but get your work done. It's really evident when people take the mick or when people aren't doing the work that they should be doing. You know, if you work really fast and you can work really efficiently and you wanna go and have a coffee with your mate in the day, like, oh my God, please do. Because I think we talk a lot in our industry. We talk a lot in business about work life balance, but what does that truly mean? Does that mean that you start work at eight and you knock off at six? And then you've got your work life balance, like especially in winter months. Holy cow. Get out in the daytime, have some sunshine. Have your walking meetings. Like call a colleague and just bounce some ideas off. Or just have a chat and catch up or go to the gym in the day if that's when you really wanna do it, or go and work in Spain for two weeks. I don't care. Like you don't need to take holiday, go and work wherever you want because you're going to do your best work and feel your best self. So that's the culture and the spirit that I'm really trying to foster. And any challenges along the way in terms of that vision or seeing that vision become a reality? Or has it just been plain sailing? No, it hasn't at all. I have had to micromanage, then it becomes clear that if teammates are wrong, the wrong culture fit there. You know, if you have to, and then if, if like me as a leader is working in a way that I don't feel comfortable working in, then there becomes like a real disconnect. And the vibe in the team becomes really weird. What does help though is setting really clear outcomes, really clear targets what you always say, don't you? What does success look like? So let's make it really clear. Let's have some real clear measurables about what success looks like for each job role from week to week, from month to month. I think if you've got those measurables, then you are really empowering a team to be able to live their best lives, do their best work, and just really bloody loving being part of the team.
Peter Czapp:And that's what we all want, right? A team that are loving, being part of the team, loving their work, and yeah, great things happen when that's the case. I've got one question. I'm gonna split into three parts. I'm gonna ask you for some advice for three different types of people and the first bit of advice I'd like you to give is for someone who is in your shoes prior to getting this role. So there's someone who is desperate to move up into a leadership role, whether that's managing director of a business or head of department or a senior role within the business, but they are keen as mustard to step up to that role. What advice do you have for anyone in that position based on your experiences?
Ellie Hale:Don't give up fighting for it. Ask why you're not getting that position. Don't be afraid to confront the situation. The thing is, and like I said before you know, quite a few times in positions, I've been held back because I was a grafter. I was doing the do, I was working really hard anyway, so why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? So what you need to do is really know what you're giving your company, know what they'd be losing, should they lose you. And ask for clear steps to the dance because you can get a carrot dangled in front of your face for an awfully long time. And you need to know, I think, within yourself, what your limit is, how long you are willing to just do the graft without the reward. Have clear sort of steps, clear measurables, clear defined targets that if you hit, and then what, what are the stages that you need to take? And don't be afraid to ask for that. I think especially looking at women in leadership, it's something that is I dunno, embarrassing to do or Scary to do, and we need to break that stigma and not, don't be afraid to ask, and don't be afraid to let your ambitions be known. You know, ambitious people are bloody brilliant people. Ambitious people can do some amazing things. You need to let those above, you know, Really clearly what you are after and ask them, how you need to get there, what you need to do to get there.
Peter Czapp:Fab. Great advice, really clear. Second advice I'd like you to give is to someone who's relatively new in their first few months into a new leadership role. And again, it might be MD or it might be head of department, but they have maybe where you were 12 months ago. What advice do you have for them as they embark on their journey?
Ellie Hale:Nobody knows where the photocopier is on their first day. Right? So don't expect to like magically have the title and know all the answers. It's all right not to know all the answers. And actually it's empowering to not have all the answers. It's exciting to not have all the answers and enjoy the journey that you're on You're gonna stuff up and that's all right. Don't be afraid to keep learning. Don't be afraid to ask for advice. Don't be afraid to ask for feedback. Constructive feedback, negative feedback. Opinions, advice. At the end of the day, you need to follow your own heart. You're on your own path. But. Be prepared to be constantly learning and constantly evolving and relax into it. Like, I'm a year into the role and, you know, still need to chill out and just accept it, you know, fight the inner imposter or have days where I think I can't do this. But you will grow and you will develop and have a lot of fun. And if you're not, maybe the role's not for you.
Peter Czapp:Good advice. And finally, I'd like you to give advice to someone, say, who is in my position or who might find themselves in the position I was in, where they've got someone talented, they're bringing them into a leadership role and they want that person to be as successful as possible in that role. What guidance and advice do you have for someone in that position?
Ellie Hale:Take the chance. I think if somebody's showing you hunger and sparkle and determination, don't be afraid to take the leap before all the steps are completed. Go for it. Just take the punt and know that you will learn on the way. It's rare, I think, to find somebody that will love your business like you do and work their arse off for your business like, like you do. So I think if you've got those people take the chance, take the punt, and be aware that there's gonna be some learning together. That's what I'd do.
Peter Czapp:Yeah. Yeah. And you know what it is rare to find someone who loves the business as much as you do, and I'm very grateful to have found you. I'm very grateful for the fact that you do and always work your arse off as, as well. So thank you for all the care and love and passion and hard work that you've put into it. I've loved watching you on your journey and do you know what it's just a start, Ellie. So I'm excited about where you're gonna take things next. So thank you so much for everything you've done and thank you for today. I've I've found it really interesting.
Ellie Hale:My pleasure.