The future of work and what leaders need to think about right now with Jen Swain, Managing Director of Beatfreeks

In this week’s Beautiful Business podcast Yiuwin Tsang was joined by Jen Swain, MD of Beatfreeks to discuss the future of work. 

Leaders need to rapidly respond to how our post-pandemic world and increasingly uncertain economic times are changing the shape and expectations of the workforce.

In the podcast, Jen and Yiuwin talk about the the future of work and about how leaders need to have a landscape view of a huge number of areas - from economic growth to thinking about the new generation of employees who may well have very different aspirations and expectations to the generations before them. 

Transcript

Yiuwin Tsang:

Hello, folks, welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang part of the Beautiful Business team and in this episode, I was joined by Jen Swain. 

Jen is currently the managing director of BeatFreeks and has previously run her own business focusing on coaching and consulting to empower female leaders. Prior to that she has been in the software and creative agency world for more than 12 years, most recently as Operations Director for a global Tech for Good agency. 

Jen's work at BeatFreeks taps into her passion to help the next generation shape a better future. BeatFreeks is a youthful and creative insight led engagement agency, specialising in scaling brand relevance for clients through young and diverse audiences between 16 and 35. They build agile communities of 16 to 35 year olds to understand them as citizens, consumers and workers for the likes of Coca Cola, Google, Tick Tock, and DCMS amongst others. They have packaged up their knowledge of these audiences into an insights platform called National Youth trends, which has recently been launched and tells you the mood of now so you can predict the trends of tomorrow. 

Firstly, let's talk about the future of work. I know that Beatfreeks have had a big project in this and very much your kind of mainstay, but talking about the future what what leaders need to think about right now, whenever I hear the term future of work, I do think for many could be quite an abstract kind of concept. So Jen, why don't you give us a bit of context in terms of what that term means to you and the team at BeatFreeks? 

Jen Swain:

Of course, yeah, as you saying it's very broad, you could take it from many angles. But I think in terms of the research that we're doing, particularly around that area, at the moment, we're looking at how businesses as employees of people can respond and manage the changing workforce that have got changing priorities, really, you know, obviously aware that in order for the UK to support a strong economy, we need consumer spending, and we need business investment. And I think our take on the future of work is that it encompasses both of those things, in terms of how we could think about developing the economy that obviously he needs to grow. And thinking about post pandemic, and like I said, being in very unstable period at the moment, but what kind of changes and trends do we think are coming that needs to be responded to by the world of work? 

Yiuwin Tsang:  

That is broad. It's certainly much wider. So can you tell us in terms of what has changed over letter the last 10 years in terms of workforce demographics? Because that's one of the big things that you mentioned in there as well, you know, what are the challenges that employers have had to deal with?

Jen Swain:

I think when you think about the last 10 years, we've seen a huge change in the way that leadership operates. In my view, I think, well, first of all, we've got five generations in the workplace now for the first time ever in history. And what that means is how leadership operates from a thinking about workplace culture, thinking about from a well being landscape point of view, that has drastically come into focus, obviously exacerbated by COVID. And I think we're still seeing a bit of wave of impact there in terms of mental health, mental well being, but really, you know, if you think about 10 years, I guess what we're talking about there is that leadership change that has been in place through sort of the Boomer and Gen X generations, their attitudes and values, and, and perhaps a slightly more dare I say, sort of command and control leaning in terms of culture and how we think about reward and recognition, and then starting to see sort of millennials, maybe taking the reigns across business leadership teams, and starting to see them kind of bringing their priorities in terms of you know, decision making, what things are changing across the workplace. And as I said, I think for me, that's really come through in terms of how we think about humans, you know, in the last sort of, I want to say, three, four years, we've seen the start of a shift of not calling HR HR anymore. So you know, moving away from human resources to it being a people function, which first of all, by the way, I love in my previous role always hated being called HR. But yeah, I think, you know, that's one of the biggest areas of change is that humanization of how we deal with each other within the workplace.

Yiuwin Tsang: 

It's such an interesting point that you made there about not just the workforce that's coming through, and not just the existing kind of workforce generations that are there. But also the leadership teams that are coming through and the types of leaders are coming through. And I guess from a business perspective, there's two elements to that there's going to be the startup kind of leaders that are building businesses who are Gen Zed or later Millennials as you saying those guys and girls getting into proper decision making leadership kind of positions from the off and then you've got the others who are kind of promoted within these organisations who have kind of made their way up and through but who are then kind of getting the opportunity to express their values, you know, for their beliefs and the culture that they want to start to manifest within the teams that they lead. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's super interesting, I guess. It's really apparent when you see you mentioned that whole kind of command and leaning in kind of style of leadership. And it wasn't that long ago when that was really fashionable. And it was all very kind of it was very much Oh, kind of business leadership, wasn't it? It was very kind of like, look at how big and strong I am kind of approach as it were. But dare I say, it feels like it's unfashionable. It's becoming more and fashionable to be, you know, again, this hopefully doesn't listen to this. But Alan Sugar's of the world, you know that last time I watched that TV show, it just makes your skin crawl doesn't know just makes you just go. This is like some sort of parody of leadership.

Jen Swain: 

Doesn't it feel so out of date? Yeah, you know, that's coming back to a conversation we were having earlier, you know, that relevance point is a prime example is the apprentice because it feels so old school now to be talking in the way that they're talking to be treated in the way that they're treated. It just doesn't feel like a true reflection of what progressive organisations look like anymore. And, you know, it's still kind of quite fun to watch from a reality TV point of view. But yeah, I totally hear I think it's a great example to call out.

Yiuwin Tsang:

It is funny, isn't it? It was not that long ago, when Alan Sugar was lauded for his business acumen and his approach and things that he does, or the things that he did. But now you just kind of overtime you hear of him, it's just something where you just think, Oh, dude, that's not what we want to hear from you.

Jen Swain:

So I think the other piece in there that is worth a nod to is this kind of element of the macho side of things that you're talking about here. And I think, you know, let's not take away from Alan Sugar’s achievements, you know, he's built a business empire, so fairplay, but I think what seems to be coming through really strongly for me right now is that success. And being an empathetic or supportive leader of an organisation, those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, you know, you can build the picture where actually you've got a really successful business that's doing really well. And your team are really happy because they feel supported. And you know, they're able to be themselves. And, you know, they know that they're not at risk of getting fired in the next five minutes. And they don't have to be separate things. And I think particularly in this whole rise of that we have definitely seen, I'm speaking as a female in a leadership position. But we've definitely seen the rise of women in business over the last sort of 5-10 years too. And I think we very much generalising here, but I think we're bringing that kind of really nice complementary skill set and qualities to board tables, I think, you know, where you've got decent representation around board tables, and open minded guys who are allies of women and also wanting to be progressive, I think those are the organisations that are really succeeding because they're able to balance the business. And I'm not suggesting women don't have that, by the way, we've got it in spades. But I think the two skill sets and qualities that men and women can bring together I think, is really powerful,

Yiuwin Tsang:

Last recording that we did with Natalie Haig, actually, we talked about a group that she's part of, which is women inspiring leaders of all variation of that. And she talks about feminine traits in leadership, you don't need to be a woman to have feminine kind of traits, which are really positive in leadership. And there are things which I think naturally, women are just better than blokes are more naturally kind of attuned to. And it's those kinds of traits that kind of come through which perhaps in you know, the 80s, the 90s, perhaps was lacking in boardrooms, I'll need to dig the stats up. But there are some stats are about as you say, boards have got greater gender diversity do better. They just perform better the deliver better returns for their shareholders, on and so forth. So there's every reason to be more inclusive in the boardroom. And just to bring it back to the kind of Gen Zed piece as well, I feel like as much as they can be criticised as much as they are criticised in terms of sensitivity in terms of privilege in terms of being demanding and things like this, they also exhibit a set of values, that perhaps the values that they exhibit, they're closer to the surface, I'm trying to, I'm not sure if I'm articulating this really well, but they live much closer to it. And they're more likely to call you out if you behave in such a way that doesn't align to their values, or they will walk out on a job if it isn't right for what they feel is right. And it's one of those things where I think, you know, I think a minute, I've got two little kids, you know, I want them to stand up for what they think is right? You know, I want them to feel like they can do the right thing, and not going to kowtow to you know, some muscular mature kind of leader says this is where you got to do it, like our Olympic kind of vibe. And so I think there's a lot in fairness that we can take from Gen Z that will guide us in terms of what the future of work could and maybe should look like.

Jen Swain:

I think you're absolutely right. I think since a couple of things in there. One is I think in terms of board diversity, I think the one area that is still lacking is age diversity. So you know, we've certainly worked with a number of clients who are interested in thinking about young panels, who can act as a bit of scrutiny for board decision making and, you know, help direct, I think that's a great initiative that more organisations should do. But ultimately, you know, guest appearances on your board from time to time from a younger team member, to let them into some of your thinking and ideas and, you know, ultimately opening the doors a bit and not hiding behind decisions that you're making. Because you're absolutely right Gen Z are again, in my experience, we had somebody call out some really bad behaviour in a previous organisation. And it's great to see because that's how we're going to improve. That's how we're going to make the world a better place. And ultimately, it shouldn't all be resting on Gen Z shoulders, but actually you're right. They're showing us the way and it's actually making us more accountable to ourselves in the rows. 

Yiuwin Tsang:

Good stuff. And what can you see from a world of work now, perhaps give us some insight in terms of what the future will bring.

Jen Swain:

I think I probably said this word a couple of times now. But I think genuinely, I believe there's going to be a snowballing effect around this kind of flexibility piece. So I've personally always been of the opinion that Dutch and Nordic countries are a couple steps ahead of us when it comes to how they operate, how they do things. And this term flexicurity was coined in the Netherlands, which is essentially that kind of concept, that means that flexibility and job security don't have to be mutually exclusive. And that's what I think is coming down the tracks more and more, like I said, I don't think the single paycheck isn't necessarily going to be how things are in sort of maybe 5-10 years, particularly not for the younger workforce, because they're creative beings. And you know, they're often wanting to do their own passion projects, as well as have some of that stability and security that regular paycheck can offer. So yeah, that would be my sort of prediction in terms of what we're starting to see now and how that can develop.

Yiuwin Tsang:

That's super interesting. So as we were growing our company, we've got a couple of members, staff, actually who do their own thing. So they do part time work, you know, 2/3/4 days a week, and then the other day a week they do their own thing. And I could see that happening, I can see it now that you kind of opened my eyes to it almost kind of like makes a lot of sense. And this is just like the hard nosed kind of the business part of me in my brain is going is that irregardless of what intersector, whatever you want to do, somebody who works two and a half days a week does more than half the work or somebody works five days a week. It's just the way that handover the making sure stuff is done and stuff that if you get the right people, maybe extra caveat with that, you get the right people, you know, they will always make sure that nobody's been let down. And almost all the time that they have to do that is half compared to somebody who works a full time, it is very interesting to see and to hear your thoughts that there's going to be this kind of flexible world if you like. So just to expand on that a bit more. Jen, do you think it will be in a few years time the norm for people to have to possibly more jobs fix long term ish kind of roles?

Jen Swain:

Yes, I do. I don't know that it's necessarily going to be right for everybody. You know, some of us, I would probably say me included, I'm kind of set in my ways a little bit like my days. And you know, I know what I'm doing. But I've been in that world as well. You know, I did some freelancing, some consulting and some coaching for a bit. You know, I also understand that the benefit that you get from juggling those plates, and I certainly think that for particular types of roles, we're obviously in an agency. So we've got a bunch of creative people who work with us. And, you know, we often engage with freelancers as well. But I just think that kind of freelance economy is definitely going to be a big boom in the future.

Yiuwin Tsang:

Interesting. And what are the opportunities and threats? Do you think the facing organisations either now or certainly in the future, when it comes to the workforce, for example, it just switched back on to that pretty mind blowing stuff that there are five generations in the workforce at the moment? Right, exactly. I'm sure there's some real advantages, having that kind of diversity within the workforce and some real opportunities there. But at the same time, there's some challenges as well. So what do you think are the biggest opportunities and threats?

Jen Swain:

Oh, this is such a good question. Because there's so many, for me, that multi generational workforce piece is really crucial. And I think it could go either way, depending on your organisation, understanding how to communicate across five generations, and to get those generations communicating together effectively, that needs some investment for the future. And I think that's certainly an opportunity, but if not dealt with could be a threat, I think in terms of opportunities for businesses. And I'm thinking of a little more around talent here, I suppose. But, again, part of the future of work research, we've done almost all of the people that we spoke to, as part of that research said that working for a company that made a positive difference in the world, was really important to them. So I think there's a real opportunity for organisations to evaluate what they do and build some purpose into, or focus themselves around a purpose. I think that's going to be a super important attraction technique. But that said, I think conversely, the threat is that we then end up in a world where everybody's talking about working to a purpose. And by the way, I don't think we're a million miles away from that now, but you know, this purpose washing thing, and there's a lot of washing happening around different things. But I think we have to be really clear about what having a purpose means. And again, you mentioned it earlier, but Gen Z will particularly be able to call that out and see it a mile off if it's not really true and authentic. So yes, piece around purpose in there. And I think, again, another piece of research that we did coming out of COVID, there was sort of three key things that were really, really important to Gen Z in terms of when they're looking for a job coming out of lockdown, in particular, salary only made up 50%, roughly, and another sort of 30 odd percent was around a decent work life balance. And then another 30% was around having great people to work alongside and build connection with so you know, I think in terms of we were talking a little bit earlier around understanding how to build your employer value proposition, really taking into account insight in how you build that and how you speak and attract the right people is going to be really crucial

Yiuwin Tsang:

100% And it says a lot towards you know, a lot of the interviews that we're doing a beautiful businesses while around authenticity, and walking the walk, not just doing the talk, and as he said Gen Z will call out on that and it was again really interesting stuff that you pulled out there the research kind of post COVID It seems to have really come have amplified that bit that it isn't just about money, it's more about the connections that they make. It's about that purpose piece. And final point on what you just said that and about purpose washing. It's such a dangerous trap to fall into. You say all the right words, but you don't back it up with what you do. And yeah, there's not that you talked about employer value proposition, but you've also got your employer brand as well. And the damage that could happen if somebody leaves your organisation, and they say, Well, they say that all this but if you look under the hood, it's nothing like that. That is it's awful. That's kind of damages, you know, almost a recoverable from, you've mentioned, the Dutch and the kind of Nordic countries and the way that they do things, it just made me remember that I think it might be in a panorama thing, and where they talked about the Dutch kind of education system, and there was one bit where they have students, it was students that are coming out of university or in university, and they would spend time in care homes with elderly folk. And it was just absolutely amazing thing where, you know, these young students would come through and they would learn loads and speak with the elderly folk. And the old folk just loved the social interaction in the interest of they showed what's going on. And there was this amazing purity when you watch these kinds of these generations, like decades apart decades apart, you know, just so connected in the conversations. And the way that you spoke just brought me back to that point, you know, could you imagine a workplace where you have this kind of interactivity where generations are learning from each other where they're inspiring each other. 

Jen Swain: 

I'm so pleased to hear you say that because we've literally been pitching that particular piece of work in the last few weeks. So this whole concept of kind of intergenerational multi generational mentoring is exactly the key to closing that gap in terms of the comps and understanding each other and able to work better together. I did a piece of work a while ago with I want to say a Gen exa sort of team lead, who was really struggling to sort of get the best from one of his younger employees, and really having to put him in the shoes of that person without being able to connect them to each other. And ultimately, the ground work that we did together meant that that empathy piece came in and they were then able to go and have this amazing productive relationship where they both got each other and where they were coming from and did that shared understanding exchange? So yes, I'm so pleased to talk about it because I believe it's super powerful. And I think you know, organisations that start to make steps down that road now are really going to feel the benefit.

Yiuwin Tsang:

Thank you so much, Jen Swain, from Beatfreeks for taking the time to interview and sharing your advice, insights and experience. Thank you for joining us for this week's beautiful business podcast. Beautiful business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautiful business.uk