This is the second Beautiful Business podcast episode featuring the truly inspirational Natalie Haigh.
Natalie is fast becoming a podcast favourite on Beautiful Business and this week she speaks about the importance of both receiving and offering mentoring at various stages of her career. Natalie talks about the power of mentoring and offers some of the methods she uses with her mentees. She explains her belief that if we can mentor people to fully achieve their potential and succeed, it will be a better result for everybody, and then everyone is going to be healthier and happier.
About Natalie Haigh:
Natalie’s dream is of a better connected, kinder and more accepting world.
Natalie’s recent work has been in the charity sector where she has volunteered in a number of roles including setting up a new community non-profit. She is passionate about helping others and making a difference.
Previously she was the managing director of Mercury1 who have been providing end-to-end software and support solutions using enterprise technology since 2006, and before that her experience was in IT leadership and innovation in the manufacturing sector for Procter and Gamble.
This is the second Beautiful Business podcast episode featuring the truly inspirational Natalie Haigh.
Natalie is fast becoming a podcast favourite on Beautiful Business and this week she speaks about the importance of both receiving and offering mentoring at various stages of her career. Natalie talks about the power of mentoring and offers some of the methods she uses with her mentees. She explains her belief that if we can mentor people to fully achieve their potential and succeed, it will be a better result for everybody, and then everyone is going to be healthier and happier.
About Natalie Haigh:
Natalie’s dream is of a better connected, kinder and more accepting world.
Natalie’s recent work has been in the charity sector where she has volunteered in a number of roles including setting up a new community non-profit. She is passionate about helping others and making a difference.
Previously she was the managing director of Mercury1 who have been providing end-to-end software and support solutions using enterprise technology since 2006, and before that her experience was in IT leadership and innovation in the manufacturing sector for Procter and Gamble.
Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.
Yiuwin Tsang 0:00
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy and softly grown. Hello, everybody and welcome to this week's episode of the beautiful business podcast. This week, I was joined by Natalie Hague. Natalie has a dream for a better connected kinder and more accepting world her values of kindness, authenticity, supporting creativity and building communities. Now that might sound a little bit warm and fuzzy, but she has got a solid background in business and technology. She started her first job at 13, working with car parts and gained five years of work experience before starting university. She worked 30 hours a week during her three year degree in computer science. And after four years in the corporate world of Procter and Gamble, co founded a software technology company of which she was empty 14 years. Mercury One Limited grew from the kitchen table to 900,000 plus internal events 17 staff when she was forced to leave due to ill health in 2019. Despite facing the challenge of an unexpected career break, she's still a believer in business and leadership and openly talks about her experiences with mental health and recovery. Natalie's recent work has been in a social enterprise sector, where she's volunteered in a few roles including teaching and mentoring young people. And she has recently set up to community nonprofits are closed swap undercroft club. Now despite not being at the helm of the business right now she is busy helping other business owners through the help to grow scheme. And as a freelance advisor. This was one of the most humbling interviews I've had the chance to do is incredible experience chatting with Natalie, and I really hope you enjoy the interview.
Yiuwin Tsang 1:44
Let's talk about mentoring Natalie, and why it's an essential thing to do. As a leader, could you give us a quick run through on your experiences, both as being a mentee but also being a mentor?
Natalie Haigh 1:57
Yeah, I think mentoring, I totally believe in it. I'm a mentor myself. I've been at that several times in different kinds of areas at different times of my development. So I was a mentor a very young age, when I worked in a big companies I worked for Procter and Gamble in manufacturing. And as new recruits came in, they would be assigned a mentor. And I was responsible for kind of diversity in the IT sector for across Europe. So I was mentoring a lot of young women coming in, and also sort of diverse skill sets, did the Myers Briggs work and taught people about that, which was really interesting. And it's funny, because when you're sort of 23, and someone says you're going to mentor someone, what do I know? But actually, there's a process behind mentoring. And it really isn't about the things you're saying or that you've got all the answers. It's kind of like coaching in the sense that you're guiding the other person through the steps that they need to take the journey that they need to go on in their own development. And so the biggest skill, which is ironic, for me, anyone who knows me is that you need to be an excellent listener. I know. And I'm way more of a talker than a listener. But, you know, I really learned to do that to really hear what the person is saying. And where they kind of need a little bit of a nudge, or even where they need a contact, you know, what networking can I put in their direction. So I really enjoy being a mentor. And being a mentee, more recently, as well, has been really interesting, because quite often, you know, I'm in my 40s now, and I've done my 20 years in tech and my 15 years as an entrepreneur and I've been retired for a few years. So I kind of feel like I'm now very firmly in the mentor seat. And I was offered this programme where I became the mentee. And actually a lot of women come to this programme and say, you know, I want to mentor that's why I'm here. And they make you go into this mentee, six months phase and you think, and of course, we all can be learning all the time. So it's amazing. But yeah, you just sort of think, oh, okay, someone's going to mentor me and what you get out of it? Is this complete? 360 on? What do you really think, Where are you going? Can you evaluate your decisions, I was just listening to him Brene Brown podcast this morning about Immunity to Change. And it's amazing. And it's about how we get in our own way, when we want to make changes and that we are quite bad at seeing the things that are in front of us taking decisions when it comes to our own behaviour. So we're very good at saying this isn't happening. It's the system's fault. It's someone in my team's fault. It's the technology's fault, you're not as good at saying actually, I think there's something in me some kind of deep belief or some fear that is stopping me making these behaviour changes. And when you have a mentor, they're going to call you on your ship. They're going to say you know what, that you're doing that you're criticising yourself or you're not allowing yourself to see this or why are you doing that? And it really makes you think really deeply and some of my sessions as a mentee in the law. six months, I've been in tears, or I've been really, like, I've had to sit in silence. Because I've had to process what's been pointed out to me. And you just think, Gosh, that's really liberating. Because you sort of go along thinking, Yeah, you know, I know this. I know that. Yeah, I've done this been there. And then some calls out to you and says, actually, have you really thought this through? Or did you consider that element? And you know, recently, we were talking about the football, which is very topical at the moment. And I was saying, I really wanted the Indian team to wear the armband, the one love armbands, I felt really passionate about it. And I was in a forum with women around the world. And one of them said, Do you think it's fair, that one culture, other cultures can tell a different culture how to live and how to be? And it really hit home with me because I'm very liberal. I like to think of myself as very liberal. And I thought, You know what, yeah, like the British Empire went around the world and basically made a complete mess, and were complete assholes. And that's not okay. And are we still sort of saying, Yeah, we're superior, and we think better than everyone else? You know, I think on that particular issue, I think most people would agree, it's bad. But there is an element of who are we to tell someone else how to live. So you're getting that perspective, honestly, in any element of business, from you making decisions about your team or your sales process, and someone reflecting back to you with no agenda, no interest in your own business or your journey except to show a mirror to you and say, This is what you're doing? Is that okay? Is that congruent with your own values? Is that where you want to be or where you want to push your team or your industry, and you having to be accountable to that. And that's, for me, that's what mentoring is about. It's about giving you that accountability, and allowing you to see 360
Yiuwin Tsang 6:55
I think the danger that a lot of founders have and business leaders have is that kind of it's almost like this veneer that they have some of it perhaps is kind of self protection in the sense that they got to kind of believe this is the way forward I'm making the decisions that I stand by my decisions to be decisive and things like this. And as you say, framing in that way, having a mentor, I guess you need to be prepared for this. If you're going to get the most out of having a mentor, you're having that reflected back to you. And it sounds like it's quite a step to take for a founder. There's almost a vulnerability to it. Is that fair to say?
Natalie Haigh 7:25
Yeah, I think so. I mean, the advice that we got when we were in this programme, and the advice I give my mentees is, have a leadership journal, have a notebook where you're making notes, and you can see your journey and the things that you've learned, because it's very, you can go through a lot in an hour session, I think, Oh, yeah. You know, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. And then two hours later, you've probably forgotten 50% of the points. So writing it down, and then making you really need to commit to a schedule. So you commit to a schedule with your mentee or your mentor, and then you book out additional reflection time. So it's kind of like double whammy, it's almost double the amount of time that you're scheduling to speak to someone, you then go away and reflect and make notes and decision board or whatever, you know, Vision map that you want to do, depending on what you're working towards. A lot of people are working towards a vision. And then they'll create like a goal, a set of goals and then a kind of roadmap to get to it, then you need time to do that. And you need focus time in your time when the phones aren't ringing when you're not looking at your watch or your emails, and someone's going to interrupt you. So it's really about have those discussions and and have reflection time. And it's a commitment. And going back to your point about vulnerability. Yeah, I think in any kind of learning, and this is learning, you've got to be open to being wrong, and to learning something new. And you're only going to learn something new if your heart is allowing that to come in. Because if you go in with this sort of like I know everything to choose, you just don't quite listen. And you need to really listen to understand not to reply,
Yiuwin Tsang 8:55
has humility involved, right, in terms of taking on that? Yeah, and but
Natalie Haigh 8:59
I think he's sort of taken aback to leadership. You know, it was really interesting what you said about leaders having this veneer and feeling like they need to be decisive and know everything. And I think that's a real fallacy that we have is that is how I guess it's just not for me, but you would probably agree with this becoming a parent, either the baby doesn't land or you suddenly become an owner of a business or a leader in business and you get a manual through the post. That doesn't happen. You don't suddenly know everything, if despite what your team or your family might think. So you aren't suddenly the expert. But as long as you are honest with your team, and you're always trying to do your best, you will still be a really good leader, just by not having this manual. And mean there were an amazing amount of courses and coaches and support groups within all of the local areas. A lot of you know, local council, we've got this kind of business growth programmes that are free. There's loads of things out there to help you develop your leadership, but you've got to be open to do that. And I think it's also about role modelling. If you're spending time developing your leadership going on these training programmes, having a mentor, and you're open and honest with your team, that you're doing this work, what you're telling your team is not, I'm not good enough, or I'm so weak that I need the support, what you're saying is that everybody in the organisation is able to improve themselves, including your team members, and you're pushing, you're in your comfort zone, and you're growing, and therefore anyone in your team wants to get better wants to take the next step up or learn something new. It's part of the culture of the business, part of the culture of the network that you've built, is that even the people who are seemingly at the top, think they can get better, and work at it. And I think that's the thing, it's not just going well, I'd like to get better. And hoping it happens sort of organically with osmosis. It's like I'm putting time and effort into this focus. And you know, if I can do it, anyone in the team can do it. When I had a tech team, I was really fierce about giving them the space, and the confidence that they could also move into new areas if they wanted to, and improve themselves. And I was constantly trying to improve where I was, I mean, partly when I was in my 20s. That is I didn't have that confidence, that unshakable kind of core of, you know, I know what I'm doing. I've perpetually terrified every single day that someone would find me out, you know, the kind of classic impostor syndrome that a lot of us suffer with. And having a mentor and being a mentor to other people helped with that, because you when you become a mentor, you see the bio with the person you're going to help. And the first thing you think is, how do I help this person, they are already so impressive, they've already done so many things, who am I, and then you are able to guide and help them. And it kind of helps you grow in your own self confidence and realise there are things that you do know, experiences you have had that can be used in that way. And I think that's, you know, there's sort of flipside, there's that vulnerability when you're a mentee. And then there's that other side, when you're a mentor, you kind of have to step up your game, because that's expected of you. And you just put a little bit more effort and you research a bit more if you're going to share something you want to know it's right. And I had this wonderful example, actually, this weekend. It's not strictly business related, but I think it's applicable. So I'm a developer leader. And we took out 18 Young people this weekend, four of them had done bronze last year with us. So they've come in very, very shy. But all the others were completely new. So they really, really shy first weekend out in the field. And so I asked the ones who retired last year, do you want to teach them at reading this weekend? And they were like, no, no, no, we're not good enough. And I seen I led you last year I assessed you, I know that you know this. And you know, if you go through the process of teaching the other youngsters, this, you're going to grow in your own confidence, it's going to cement your learning, because there isn't really anything new, we can teach you for silver, it's just more of it and more confidence. So I said there for me, like my knowledge, I know that you will get there quicker if you're teaching other people because it helps just the way of doing it makes you think of it in a slightly different way, you put a bit more effort into it. And you'll find different ways of explaining it, which also go into your brain as well. And therefore it's easier to remember. And that, you know, I've managed to convince them they weren't sure at the time. And the end of the session, I asked them for feedback. And I said, you know, how did you find it? And I saw actually was really good. Like, I really understood bearings. And like one of the shores girls was just like, oh, yeah, like, I really enjoyed it. And I was really pleased to hear that. And another one who was worried that her peers, she said, they're my peers, why would they listen to me? And I said, Well, they're direct editors. They don't know as much as you you know more. Yeah, but I'm not like an adult. And I said, doesn't matter. You do know something that they don't know. Yes. I said, Okay. Are you able to explain it in a really good way? Or I think so I said, well, let's just say and try it. And she was really pleased. She said, Everyone respected me. And they all listened and said, I hadn't expected that. And I said, Well, yeah, that's amazing. So yeah, I'd I love watching the young people grow into their own confidence. And that that was really amazing. But it was a new technique that we tried this year, rather than us doing all the teaching, everybody listening. And they've already asked for some of the new youngsters to volunteer next month to teach another group. So I'm hoping to use that technique just to help them cement their knowledge.
Yiuwin Tsang 14:19
I mean, it sounds like such a sensible, very organic, and also a really valuable way of cascading, that kind of knowledge and the experience down through different cohorts as they kind of come through because again, you know, just on a practical level, if you're trying to teach or to mentor, a group of 20 people, and you've got 20 hours or three days to do and so that's an hour each in terms of how that time breaks down. Whereas if there are five of you cascading that teaching down, then it just means that everybody gets a deeper or more rich experience of learning both ways by the sounds of things. And just to kind of come back to what you were saying there about almost, it's using the knowledge and experience that you have, but in a slightly different context of hearing right because from a business coaching perspective, it might be that, you know, you've got years and years of industry experience and lots of value in the sense of, you know, you can tell them what to do. But it's more about how they can, I suppose use you as a sounding board to work out how they work out what to do is our fair way of kind of saying,
Natalie Haigh 15:19
absolutely. And I think it deviates much it's really easy to see the lives because not all the young people, so everyone was most people go to school in this country and take certain levels or not everyone does deviates, and it's designed to kind of like be used without limits. That's the strapline and it's about building confidence and about people sort of being very self sufficient. And one of the things that's come through and I look at the other assessors for the other section reports, a lot of the comments are like, No, I wish that person could have a bit more confidence or wish they'd be a bit bolder. And I kind of read that from last year's reports. And I thought, how can I impact that when we had a company and we had staff, I sort of felt like I did the same and I do in my networking as well, I just kind of not, if I have to say things 10 times to 10 different people, that's a certain amount of time, and you know, people are fed up with hearing my voice. But if I tell one person who then tells somebody else, you know, they add their own flavour to it as well as their own perspective. And they grow. And that's really what I'm all about. It's like, how do you help other people become successful? And that, for me is like the best measure of success is like, what impact have you had on other people's success, being able to raise other people up, and that's where mentoring, I always come back to mentoring. It's just such a powerful tool to do that to an individual, but to be able to propagate that, you know, I can only mentor so many people, but if I can mentor somebody else to become a mentor to somebody else, and so forth, then, you know, that ripple effect can be immense. And that's pretty damn cool.
Yiuwin Tsang 16:50
Yeah. 100%. I just want to go back to something you mentioned earlier in your answer there about building confidence about dealing with impostor syndrome, as well. And I guess this is from a mentees perspective, forgive me for jumping around a little bit from that mentee. Specifically, Can you just elaborate a little bit more in terms of how having a mentor can help you overcome things like impostor syndrome, or you know, more kind of confidence kind of related stuff?
Natalie Haigh 17:13
I think the thing is that the mentor mentee relationship is all about honesty and openness, and they will recognise certain behaviour traits. And you may be behaving in a certain way or covering up a certain behaviour, but you haven't necessarily recognised it or given it a name. And as soon as someone comes along and says, Do you realise that you are potentially suffering with imposter syndrome is something you can go and research, it's something that you can think about, and you're suddenly not alone? You know, it's a big term, a lot of people suffer with it, whether they know it or not, and there are techniques and tools that you can use to get over it. But I think sometimes, you know, when you realise that it's not just happening to you, that can be very liberating, like, Okay, I'm a normal human being, right? normal, normal feelings. This is kind of okay. And then you can start having the discussions with your mentor, like, Okay, how do I, what do you recommend? How do I tackle this? You know, do I need a bit more balance? Do I need to step back? Do I need to do a praise journal or something like that? Where I'm kind of recognising all the positive things that I've gotten that I've done? Do I need to have a support network in place that recognises my strengths? Am I actually just, am I really pitching to heart? I have I put myself in a situation where I'm not ready, you know, and actually, the imposter syndrome is genuine. And that's a question that you can ask your mentor, and it's completely confidential. So no one is going to know you ask that question. Or that they're your concerns. And they will just be honest with you and say, you know, what, not Yeah, you are just trying to, you know, fix the world. And maybe you should just focus on Hampshire to start with, you know, and that's really valuable feedback provided like you say that you are, you know, humble and open to take that and realise that it's from a point of care and compassion, not somebody who's trying to, you know, because there are people, we can say, pretend that doesn't happen. But there are people in business that, you know, do just want to put other people down. And that's how they raise themselves up by pushing other people down. And it's a horrible business technique. But I think it's something people do through fear. And I think it's to be, Lord. But if you have a relationship with a mentor, that doesn't make you feel comfortable, then consider changing. But in all my experience, even if I've not wanted to hear what they're saying, it's always been from a point of compassion and from helpfulness. And often, the bit that I really don't want to hear is probably the bit that's really true. That's really holding me back. And then I have to work on
Yiuwin Tsang 19:33
and what's coming through is this element of humility, as we said, Honesty and trust as well. And that being like a two way street. And from a mentees perspective, you have to be open to trust, you have to be ready to trust your mentor in order to get the most out of it. And we've had a few discussions within beautiful business on the forums and stuff like there's lots of kind of tactical reasons for getting a mentor in the business has gone through a transition for example, good times or bad times, which really helps them attack Typical and experience perspective gaining on that, but very much the value that comes with that perhaps is even more powerful is around that psychological safety net that you have with your mentor and being able to almost kind of bring up these things eaten away at you that are very difficult to kind of intrinsically deal with. If you feel like you might have impostor syndrome, how do you do that with an internal kind of monologue, it doesn't really work, whereas externalising it is one of those first steps that you can take to kind of recognising it and recognising it gonna deal with it and manage it. Yeah, and
Natalie Haigh 20:34
I think I mean, of course, we're gonna walk a bit of a dark path here. But you know, if you sort of take that as a parallel to kind of mental health, and if you're having suicidal thoughts, that's why I said it's going dark, just as because go there, and you need to talk about it. I think that's a really important that is talked about. But if you go to your mom, your sister, your partner, and you start to talk about this, especially if they're not prepared for it, you know, you can't unsay those things. And people don't want to put that burden on their loved ones. In his business, you know, if you have a business partner like I did, or your team, and you're, you know, and I was very naughty, because I was very open about my doubts to the team, you know, especially when we have financial worries, that potentially put pressure on them, I made them worry, I sort of looked at it from a point of view of like being open and honest and authentic. But there's definitely a line to kind of manage there. And you know, thinking about the styles and the kind of temperaments of your team, and whether they're then suddenly worried about their mortgage, because you're saying we're having financial troubles. So there's definitely a balance there. But I think if you have a mentor, and there's that confidentiality, and that sort of lack of judgement, and just open and honest dialogue, and you're able to say I'm having these thoughts, at one point, when we were in mercury, one, I just wanted to leave, I just couldn't deal with it. I just couldn't deal with the things I was having to face every day and the decisions I was having to make, and I just want to stay. But I think to a certain point, my breakdown came from part of my body, and my brain just went, Okay, if you want to go, we're off. And so if I had had a mentor at that point, and I didn't, I hopefully would have been able to talk those things through and would have got the benefit of perspective. And at least getting off my chest, if I was having that conversation with my business partner. You know, imagine the pressure that puts on your business partner, knowing that you're really struggling, and then thinking, how does this impact me? How does it impact the business? How does it impact the team, what am I going to have to do, and then they start to spiral, you know, and so having someone who's independent, who has no agenda, and who just has your best interests at heart with mentoring I've done is voluntary in my side and the other way, but you can pay mentors, you can pay business coaches, to be that service, I just think it's critical that everybody in life needs someone that they can go and say these things to, you know, mental health, or business health, or whatever it is, because you get an independent perspective. And sometimes hearing yourself say something out loud, is all the tonic you need. Because you'll often fix your own challenges or recognise your own struggles, know what, I just need to take Monday mornings off, I just need to do yoga, 10 minutes at lunchtime, or whatever it is that you need. And we're all problem solvers. Most people who are entrepreneurs, they've got their because they're good at something and they see a problem and they know how to solve it. And creativity problem solving is the same muscle actually. And that's why there's only so much juice for that. And people talk about social juices, also creative juice. And therefore if you're stretching that in life, in business, and in your own situation too far, then everything goes downhill a little bit, you know, stop being quite so creative, stop solving the problem. So you need to kind of go Hold on a minute, it isn't balanced here. And I need to put things in perspective and having that third person to just go just struggling to get out of bed in the morning, on these days. Or I don't want to go to these meetings, or I keep cancelling this team meeting. What am I not facing up to? And they reflect back and say, right, this is what you're struggling with. When you've got someone who tells you that black and white, you can make a plan. That's what we're all good at. We're all good at planning. We're all good at problem solving. But sometimes those problems are so close to home that we don't see them.
Yiuwin Tsang 24:05
Yes, so true. I'm sure most people that are listening to this as well have been through a scenario where you're talking about a problem or a challenge or whatever might be to somebody and it almost becomes this like one way, like a one way dialogue isn't that you think well, this is what's happening. I suppose we could do this. And we'll try that. But then this might happen. And remember, it's exactly what you said, and then you end up solving your own problem. But you need that outlet to externalise what that challenge was in order for you to do it. And having that mentor having a psychologically safe space to do that is the enabler and lets you unplug that
Natalie Haigh 24:37
kind of unfurl. What's been curled up inside? Yeah. Traditionally, but I think the difference is now that our lives are so integrated, and there's a real sensitivity in some areas and we protect ourselves. We also protect people around us. And therefore we aren't always open about everything that we're thinking and feeling especially when we worry about the impact on others. So having This kind of third party independent, allows you to just kind of go, I just need to tell somebody there.
Yiuwin Tsang 25:09
It's surprising how often it's overlooked. You know how many people have a mentor, when you kind of weigh that up with the people that do have good mentor and the impact that has on them professionally. And personally, why more people don't miss time,
Natalie Haigh 25:21
I think I think it's like everything, you know, we all would, you know, like to lose a stone by Christmas. But the changes we have to make, in order to do that, we have to stop doing something to give us the time to do to do the workouts, and we have to stop getting stressed, which is, uh, basically impossible, and therefore stop eating chocolate bars. But you know, by the half dozen, you know, there's obviously change management that you need to do there. But we're not very good at looking at the things that we're doing, and realising what we can stop doing in order to make space for other things. Because everything that we're doing is important. And so it's that and if you have someone who reflects on you, and so well, actually, you're talking to your team individually, and that takes 10 minutes each time, but you've got a team of 20, why don't you have a team meeting and cap it a half an hour, and then you're telling everyone the same message at the same time, you're like, oh, yeah, and you just say I don't take direct requests, the team meetings are scheduled in SA write, my yoga is in the diary, it's a private blocked out meeting my phone's off. And just do it as if it was, you know, if you have a client meeting, you would cancel it. So we need to put the same priority around things that make you a sharp enough to do your job,
Yiuwin Tsang 26:29
time with your mentor is a
Natalie Haigh 26:32
reflection on times doing or giving your team time, all of these things are absolutely critical. Like the stones in the pot, you know, with the water in the sand, put them in fast, everything else will just flow around them.
Yiuwin Tsang 26:44
Very good. And I want to talk a little bit about the inspired women elite programme that you're part of, can you tell us a bit about this, what it is how you're involved, and then perhaps we can chat a bit about how powerful it is.
Natalie Haigh 26:56
It's wonderful. It's so amazing. I feel so humbled to be part of it. I mean, I don't know everything about the background. But it started about seven years ago, a lady called Bonnie for to probably pronouncing that completely wrong. She had this vision where she wanted to improve the world, one woman at a time. And she wanted to see a world of peace and harmony where every individual was valued for their own uniqueness and their contribution, which I think is a wonderful vision. And when she had that vision, she didn't know how she was going to achieve it, because she got together with some like minded people. And they formed inspired women lead and they decided they would take a cohort of women every year, they started think was seven or eight, maybe 11. And they went created like a leadership programme. And it's six months of being a mentee, the initial women mentored the first seven to 11 women. And then after six months, they brought in a new set another cohort, and the first mentees now became mentors. And it's great because you have this training. So I've just finished the first six months of being a mentee. And every month there's a topic, so over the six to get six topics, things ranging from authentic feminine leadership to confidence values, and ethics, authenticity, like just loads of really interesting stuff, and about being a leader really under skills and values, and your strengths and weaknesses around that. So you have this to 45 minute sessions a month with your mentor. And then you have two group calls. And because it's women all around the world, there are four different calls a month, and you just need to join one I tried to join several because I love seeing all the other women and they talk about the topic, and that's their training. And then you have a group session, it's all on Zoom. That is just an open chat. So mentors and mentees and alumni can come in and just say and they literally ask the question, what are you celebrating this month? And you think, Gosh, and yeah, you just hear so many amazing stories. I learned so much from these other women, you know, both your mentee cohort, but also the mentors, as is really inspiring. Some of the calls are emotional, uplifting. There's a wonderful woman who's working for UNICEF in Afghanistan. And I remember in the very beginning, we were sort of started talking about men being annoying, not all men, you know, present company fully accepted in toxic environments. You know, I've been in engineering, I've been in it for a long time. And quite often you're the only woman in the boardroom. And there's a certain attitude, and there's a toxicity that exists sometimes, and you really have to fight for things, and I'm a fighter, so I didn't find that too bad. But a lot of women have fallen off those paths, because they just didn't want to play that way. And so we were talking about that and how unfair it is. And then this load is very quietly spoken. And she said in Afghanistan right now, any woman over the age of 15 is not allowed to go to school, they can't get a bank account, and they can't leave the house without a male and everybody just shut up. We all just sat there and we were just like, you know, whatever. was going on whatever challenges we're facing, there's always somebody else who is just got it so much worse. And it just was really powerful just to give pause to and put some perspective, but also really challenging to kind of, you know, my immediate response was like, right, I want to go, I just fly there. Now we need to kind of do something, of course, I can't do anything, I don't know any of the language, you know. And but that was really interesting, what kind of gave rise to in all of us was a different response. And for me, I have to be very mindful that I want to help with someone crying in the street, I go to help. And so I know that some people think that's a strength. For me, I also know it's my weakness as well, that I can only do so much. And we all discuss that we only have so much energy, we only have so many hours. And therefore we need to be choosing how we are going to impact and running around trying to help the next person that's crying isn't necessarily kind of joined up coordinated and towards a single vision and therefore might not have as much impact as you want. So you can imagine the discussions that we had, right from women in so many different cultures living in so many places, live different industries, different backgrounds, different ages, just utterly inspiring,
Yiuwin Tsang 31:16
sounds incredible and utterly. And it there's that piece around diversity of thought having so many perspective, culturally different views of the world, and not just enriches your own knowledge, and your own perspective on things. And we say perspective a lot throughout this discussion and how powerful that is, from a founders perspective, because it can be pretty lonely, you know, running a business or having those perspectives coming in through a psychologically safe space, through this kind of mentorship relationship through a trusted kind of spaces. It's absolutely incredible, and very, very interesting, because we spoke about this prior to the call as well. And you touched on our episode briefly then, but around developing these kind of feminine traits in leaders. I mean, the fact of the matter is, particularly in agency world, but you know, more universally, women are underrepresented in boardrooms. And that kind of needs to change. And there are very good reasons why that should change. And I think part of that is around these kind of feminine traits that the leaders and can a bit more about this and why it is so powerful.
Natalie Haigh 32:10
I agree with you, I think that women are underrepresented. And there's lots of reasons behind that historically and otherwise, so toxic environments where women get there and think I don't want to stay in it. And people done lots of studies on education, and how the two different genders are educated slightly differently. As a wonderful TED talk about training our women to be brave, where they talk about, we're teaching boys to be brave, you know, send them off on their bikes, and if they follow, so nevermind, and we're teaching girls to be perfect. And the downsides of both of those elements. And what we really should be doing is teaching girls to be brave, and be bold. And I think in today's age, that still happening at a school level, when at a young, you know, at home, there is this sort of gender difference. And I'm not saying that genders aren't different, because we are very differently, lots of things. But there's also, you know, equality kind of starts from having the same expectations and openness to do what you want to do, regardless of what label is what realities that you have on, you know, you should feel that you have the freedom to learn what you want to learn and to do what you want to do. And I think that should be universal. But yeah, so coming back to authentic feminine leadership, which is something that came out of the sort of the IW that were inspired women lead programme. And it's about leading with compassion, using collaboration, and having authenticity. And so although they say this, the programme is aimed at women primarily, and they say these are feminine leadership traits, what we also talk about is that it's not gender specific that any leader can have these traits, you know, can be compassionate can encourage collaboration, you know, I'm considering doing some business coaching in the future next year. And one of the things that I've been asked by action Hampshire, whether I'll do a talk on it actually is how you do now you used to do a SWOT analysis on your competitors, right? He's gonna turn that on its head and say, not, who am I competitors? And how am I going to beat them? But how do I work together with people in my same industry in that same space? How do we put all of our all of our different strengths together to make a better offering to wherever the customer bases, so using collaboration, not just within your own organisation, or your network, but with in the industry, even with your competitors, and just seeing it from a different perspective, you know, a kinder perspective for everybody working together perspective. And then obviously, part of that sort of going through all of that is authenticity and sort of feminine authenticity, and that, you know, it's okay to say, I don't know, in fact, it's really important to say, I don't know, because in some cultures and in business, like quite often, if, especially if a client asks you a question, there's almost kind of this unspoken requirement that you just answered the question as if you're the expert, and you just know, and not only can you sort of like end up with egg on your face, if that's the right expression, you can massively lose trust, you could tell something completely wrong, and they act on that and it'd be the wrong thing to do. So, in my case, variants, I found it so much better to say, You know what, actually, I don't know. But I'm gonna go and find out. I'm going to make sure I come back to you with the right answer here. Because I know it's an important question. And that's so much more powerful than just making something up. Even if you're sort of Sure. I think it's something like this. And you just say it with loads of confidence, because some people say, Don't worry, if you don't know, just say something with confidence, and people will believe you. That's the problem, people will believe you. If you're in a position of strength, you say you're presenting something to a group of business leaders, and you just make something up, they are going to believe you. And that's really damaging to everybody, to your reputation, and to the people who take that on and make decisions based on that. So actually being having the inner confidence to say, I don't know, but I'm going to find out. For me, it's like business 101. And I say that all my team. If you don't know how to say you don't know, go find out but say you don't know, don't just make something up. And that literally when we had one that was our core part of our culture was admit your mistakes. Say you don't know if you don't know. But yeah, we had to sort of like repeat it a lot. And actually, my business partner who was everyone was terrified off genius, basically, and very sort of straight speaking used to say, I don't mind if someone's made a mistake, as long as they own up to it. And I don't mind someone asking me a question if they don't have to do something. But don't ask me the same thing. 10 times.
Yiuwin Tsang 36:18
That was it. That was it. It's that whole thing. You know, when I was working in Photoshop, and the ops director ops manager that said, once isn't mistake twice as a mistake was one of his favourite sayings. In fairness, I share that kind of frustration. asking the same question multiple times is just like really, really frustrating, even just from a time perspective, but I just want to come back to what you talked about a little bit there. But Natalie, there's a couple of things that kind of came up to me then I think there's that whole kind of bravado bit of like daily bullshitting, basically saying something with enough confidence and people believing you. And again, without wanting to make sweeping generalisations, it's quite an ego thing I feel they don't want to be seen as not knowing. And there's a bit of like the whole kind of macho kind of vibe to it as well, you know, like the, the kind of alpha leader, if you like of the thing, and again, it's not gender specific, but it does come across as that kind of quite much, it's probably the best way of putting it. And just to pull it back to that kind of those kind of feminine traits heart of this discussion as well. But that collaborative nature, being open to collaborations and working together, there's less of that kind of, I suppose I'm a kind of confrontational relationship with your competition. There's an example in Bristol spent a lot of time in Bristol. And there's a really lovely kind of community out there of creatives of agencies, folks. And there's a huge amount of collaboration that would happen. So I remember a publisher that I was working for, we collaborated with a PR agency, and we were forced to, in many senses, could we put in a bid into UK trade and investment. And we had to have a minimum turnover that it was for SMEs, but the minimum turnover was 5 million. And as I Oh, great, like, you know, it's for SMEs, but you got to have 5 million turnover. But we were allowed to jointly bid for it. So we worked out that we could do it with this particular PR agency. And that sort of thing happened. There was another publisher that was actually based up in Manchester that I did a bit of work with, and they couldn't get their heads around it. And this isn't a regional thing. It was just like the culture, I suppose. And the leadership of that particular publisher led by a woman. So as I say, not gender specific at all, massively confrontational, hugely competitive. And it was all about what can we do to bring the competition down? How can we kill the competition, so we dominate. And it was such a different approach to work, I
Natalie Haigh 38:23
think, you know, the sorry to interrupt you. But we you just have really sparked something in me that like I did a management information systems degree. So 50%, more or less was management and the rest was computer science, and computer science. Interesting, very interesting, very mathematical, quite gender bias. But that's another thing. The management was you were taught that you were taught SWOT analysis, you were taught, how do you get one over on your competition? And even when I went out into the market, as a business owner, we were saying to company, like potential clients? Do you want to be better than your competitors, we can help you because we were writing bespoke software. So we weren't automating processes, but very specific to the business. We were saying, you're different, you run differently to your competitors, do you want to get the edge over on them. So even though my kind of feeling about the world is that we should all be hugging each other and helping each other, I still went into the market, leveraging that type of attitude. And you know, you talk about alpha male, when I first started in business, and in fact, when I worked for Procter and Gamble, and I went to Germany, I was alpha female, I would stomp my feet, I would scream and shout like I was very aggressive. You know, you're kind of cultured into that, to a certain extent. These are the role models that you've got around you. And that's what you think you have to be to be heard. But what happens internally is the congruence isn't there. So you're acting in a way that is so uncomfortable for you, that you're just storing up all this inner pain that you're not dealing with. And I think you know, that obviously came out in LA Today, but it's something you do have to be mindful. So for me like if the culture of work and success and competitiveness turns on its head to be how do we work together? How do we get a better result for everybody, then everyone is just going to be healthier, happier and healthier in my opinion.
Yiuwin Tsang 40:17
Thank you so much, Natalie for taking the time to be interviewed and sharing your experiences with our listeners.
Yiuwin Tsang 40:22
Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business.
Yiuwin Tsang 40:30
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