The power of the ‘7 P’s’ and the PQualizer with Nikki Gatenby, Author, Board Advisor, NonExec Director & Coach

This week we have our second Beautiful Business Podcast episode with Nikki Gatenby, hosted by Yiuwin Tsang. In her book ‘Better Business on Purpose’ Nikki explains that the day-to-day running of businesses can be all-consuming - but a business without purpose 'is just admin' and your business has the potential to be much more than that. 

In this podcast Nikki talks about the 7 Ps that underpin truly purpose-led businesses, using the PQualizer, a system to help to keep the Ps in balance. And why it’s critical to have a practical framework to help you implement change across your business.

There are loads of great tips and takeaways in this podcast - we hope you enjoy it! 

About Nikki Gatenby:

Nikki Gatenby is a non-executive director and cognitive behavioural coach; with a background in developing company culture and engagement to deliver world-class results.

Having led multiple successful agencies, with a track record for taking them global, Nikki has removed herself from the day-to-day operations and is now focused on making many other good companies, great.  She does this by being non-exec to the board to develop their strategy, coaching leadership teams to help them to achieve it together - all the while, developing culture right across the organisation.

Nikki is known for combining a no-bullshit approach to business with a passion for helping people be the best version of themselves. When she’s not making life better for her staff, clients and community, she is usually to be found at the top of a mountain or the bottom of the ocean. But not at the same time.

For more interesting insight and discussion, join the (free) Beautiful Business community for purpose-driven founders and business leaders at www.beautifulbusiness.uk

Transcript

Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.   Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.

Yiuwin Tsang  0:00  

Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. 

Yiuwin Tsang  0:07  

We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy and soulfully grown. 

Yiuwin Tsang  0:18  

My name is Yiuwin Tsang, part of the beautiful business team, and this week, I was lucky enough to be joined by Nikki Gatenby. Nikki is a double best-selling author on the subject of engagement at work with super engaged and purposeful work with better business on purpose. Nikki has led successful marketing agencies in London, Paris and Brighton in the UK, with a track record for supercharging positive growth. Last business went from Brighton to global from marketing services to Software as a Service technology products and to the public and coverage book hand in hand with being named one of the best places to work in the UK for eight years and running, having exited the agency in 2019. And taking a sabbatical to New Zealand. Nikki is now an agency specialist, non exec director, and cognitive behavioural coach helping founders set this strategy and coaching the leadership teams to deliver on it. Nikki is featured as one of the corporate rebel pioneers for progressive thinking and voted one of 10 of the most inspirational people in the 2022 industry benchpress survey, it was a real pleasure interviewing Nikki, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 

Yiuwin Tsang  1:21  

Nikki, let's start off with the power of the seven piece and the equaliser I would love it if you could tell us a little bit about the seven piece which I assume one of which, of course, is purpose, and why is purpose really important. And why must we avoid becoming a buzzword

Nikki Gatenby  1:34  

You're absolutely right. Purpose is very important. But there's been a lot said about purpose over the last few years. And unfortunately, it's become a bit of a dirty word, which is a shame. But it's so important because purpose gives us a reason to believe in anything and without purpose or the wrong purpose. Action can seem at best futile or at worse, potentially damaging. So record about better business on purpose is having a reason to believe in what you're doing. So from a business context, we've kind of been led by the Milton Friedman School of Economics in 76. He talks about the fact that the main responsibility of business was to create shareholder value as much money as possible for shareholders. That was it. And that idea was infectious. And it caught on and companies across the globe have kind of adopted it. And unfortunately, it's created almost a finance tail that wags the corporate decision making dog and I'm not done with one as a toy, your profits, absolutely to be part of the equation. But it's not the only reason for being is a bit like saying, you know, breathing is me music for a living is absolutely not. And shareholder value completely ignores the fact there's so many other people involved in business. And those people may or may not be motivated by continually creating value that others continue to create off. And I think we're seeing more of that, you know, it's no longer acceptable for that kind of thing to happen. And that's what purpose being a buzzword. I mean, talented people have choices. And the talent in the younger generation and our generation don't everybody, the workforce of the future, is going to be highly decisive about where they spend their time, and energy work in companies, you know, that impacts the planet that we've all inherited. So this has been a huge time for reflection as well as purpose being talked about a lot. And it's triggered this almost era of conscious capitalism or liberal capitalism, by a growing number of business leaders who want to step away from the frequent economics and look at a more impactful, purposeful way of doing business and become a force for good in a step forward. As as we described in the book, the nature of activist mountain climber self confessed dirtbag Yvon Chouinard, who is the founder of Patagonia. And he said he kind of sums it up. Profits happen when you do everything else, right. So I'm vocal about the need to redress the balance of not using people in business in pursuit of profit, because people create a business, not the other way around. And we don't need to become saved as a balance sheet. And therein lies the rub. It's all about balance. So in my mind, business without purpose, you're making money is just admin. And business has the potential to be so much more than that, hence, why I don't believe that purpose is just a buzzword. 

Yiuwin Tsang  3:54  

Good. That's wonderful. I genuinely couldn't agree with you more, a couple of things that just come up from what you said there. Somebody once said to me, I picked up from another podcast growth for the sake of growth is the business model of cancer. And I thought that's pretty heavy hitting but you know, it kind of, you know, says there needs to be a reason for it, as you say, and the power of almost kind of harmonising that reason across your team across your leadership across the your employees is absolutely profound, which I'm sure we will come on to in a moment or two, but I just wanted to pick up slightly on what you said about the younger generation that came through as well. We did a interview with Jen Swain recently who's part of the fleet. Yeah, lovely, absolutely, amazingly amazing company. And some really interesting insights that came off the back of that as well, in terms of in the discussion kind of went around the fact that as much to what you said, things have changed, you know, our whole kind of economic landscape has changed. Our social landscape has changed. There's no such thing as a job for life anymore. Whereas 10/15 years ago, you could be in a role for 10/15/20 years, even longer. That sort of thing just doesn't exist. And I think that in itself feeds into that concept where you have particularly younger work as who, you know, perhaps don't have the job security the boomers might have had, they don't have the cheap house prices, and things like that so that their context is so different. And as you say, what that means for them is that the look beyond just pounds, shillings and pence when it comes to a job, they look for the things that will give them fulfilment. They look for things that will make them feel good, they feel like they're part of something. And then when you look at that, and you think, well, actually, that's not a bad place to be. That's pretty smart, isn't it? That's pretty smart thinking we'll pop cogs in the machine, we actually want to be here for a reason. Yeah, indeed. And I guess, you know, maybe some founders are late to the game. But as you say, that's a bloody good reason to come to work, that it feels like you're doing something which aligns with your values that aligns with what you want to achieve outside of money. Because the reality is, is that we all probably could be doing something that earn just more money, it's whether or not we want to do it, is the fact of it. So tell us a bit about the seven P's then out of the book, because when we spoke about this before, I thought this is lovely, because this is how my brain works. Give me systems give me patterns. So tell us about the seven P's. 

Nikki Gatenby  5:53  

These came about when I was talking with my co authors of the book in terms of how we look at business, and how we look at what drives value in business. And profit is definitely one of those peas, but there's so many other value drivers in a business. And if we think the profit is the only value driver, we're actually not going to make the profit that we could, because we're going to limit our own potential. And if profit becomes the sole outcome, we are creating at the expense of the other value drivers. And as we talked him discussed, we got okay. What can we do in terms of looking at what are the value drivers of a business? The ones that come around by solving the world's problems, not creating them? How can we solve problems? what can business do? When it's about looking at their purpose? The second P? Well, actually, it's the first of the book, to be honest. But what is the purpose of the business beyond making money? And is that a magnetic reason for people to want to come and work with us and join us? Because if it's not, we're gonna have a problem in the future, because we're not going to be magnetic. Is our positioning clear? The second point, you know, do people know that we're there? Because if we're not clear how on earth are people going to find it? And ironically, it's going to cost us a lot more money to be found and erode our future profit? Do we have a clear stance around how we're going to work with people and our team does everyone who touches the business have a positive outcome, because if they do, they're much more likely to become advocates. And again, we're not going to be wasting marketing effort by spending loads of money on marketing, our team and the people that touch the business, the buyers and suppliers, the clients, whoever becomes part of our promotion, which is quite incredible. Fourthly, products and services deliver on the purpose and the promise of the brand. Because if they don't, we're gonna have a problem from a brand perspective. And again, if these people aren't live, that eroding profit, if they are lived, and they're creating value, they're actually generating more profit planet, we've talked about this, you know, are we putting back more than we're taking? Because talented people have choices, and this planet we're inheriting is quite scary for most of us, for all of us. So what can we do to be part of the change for good there? And platforms, such as technology community? Are we using tech in a way that can help us grow? Well? Are we using our communities and creating our communities and having alumni with people? What was fascinating conversation I have quite a lot is our other businesses, I'm working with creating alumni of people that leave the business because as he's just said, it's not a job for life anymore. People leave and that's fine. But the good ones never really leave you anyway. They want to be part of you coming forward. The Big Four deals all the time, essentially KPMG. They deliberately recruit grads knowing they will be clients at the future, and they treat them relatively well. So what can our businesses do to treat people really well to create that look like because if you don't, and if you treat people badly, when they leave your business, they are not going to become advocates, so your business actually can attract your future profit. So quickly kind of whizzed through the seven piece of purpose positioning people product, planet, platform and profit. Yes, it's still there. It's not a dirty word. Because then one is a sustainable commercial model to survive. But it's imbalance, you know, profit isn't only reason to exist. But if you get all the other value drivers, right, you will actually create more profit. If you get them wrong, you'll erode your profit. So we've got to shift our thinking in terms of how we think about profit, and it's not the sole purpose, and then how we operate to be imbalanced. And that's where the equaliser comes in. Because you know, as leaders, we are holding an awful lot in our heads and trying to balance so many things. And if all of our reporting is about the profit, if we're sort of the Milton Friedman School of Economics, we will get off kilter. But if you have a really simple mechanism to look at how we look at our balance of our business, how much I value, life will become easier. So with with Tim and my co authors, we created what we call the equaliser and we did wrestle with that name quite a lot and we've kind of fell in the if so bad, it's good territory. So we're going with it but we're all music lovers and Tim used to be a record producers to this and it has some really good to DJ experiences, which will be fascinating on this podcast, if that's not the story, but we were talking about how music imbalance and how you look at the balance of music and a super simple way to look at that is using a graphic equaliser hence P equaliser and you know if you look at any music production studio, they have them if you look at your iTunes, if you use iTunes, it's on there you can see the equaliser how can we use that tool to give us a simple view of business and that's exactly what we've done. Literally an equaliser with the bars along it being each one of the piece. If you use that as your template, if you can see it in your mind's eye. And you think okay, where are we in terms of profit? Are we making good money a It's up on the equaliser. What we do in terms of the planet are we actually taking more than we're giving it down on the peak wiser. And look at that line that you get across the because because if it's all out of alignment, it's all out of balance, you're going to be creating a hideous noise and possibly not having the best business. If your peak price isn't balanced, and it's all relatively positive, you possibly have a better chance of creating more value, and be able to have really good conversations. Now the thing is, this isn't scientific. This is a feeling about the business. And what the P close is there to do is to create conversation. And it's the differences that people feel about the business that are so important to talk about. Because so much goes in the unsaid. But if we have a tool to help us talk about what is going on in business, and a very simple one at that, we can have some really fundamental conversations about what we should and could be doing next, to create an even better business on purpose. Oh, I love it. I love it. I suppose it's a one single view almost, isn't it that sparks those conversations off. And as he said, he kind of brings out into the open differences of opinion, different feelings, as he say, Well, you know, if the CEO of an organisation says, Look, you know, profit is around about here, but we're here with our people, then it gives the opportunity for somebody to kind of speak up and speak out if they feel like oh, actually, you know what, maybe we're not maybe there's some other things that are kind of, I guess part of what business leaders can actually do is to create a safe environment to have these discussions forum almost where views feelings of welcome are enabled to be spoken. Absolutely. And one of the highlights of examples we give in the book is they're well documented example about Volkswagen, and the fact that they have a really clear purpose to be offered attractive, safe, environmentally sound vehicles, which compete the increasingly tough market and set the standards in their class. Now, I'm sure most people know about the emissions scandal from Volkswagen. And if they were talking about the fact that their purpose is one thing, but all the things that drive value in their business potentially aren't aligned to it, what should they be doing? They actively tricked the technology that looked at the emissions on their vehicles to get a better rating. Now, in what meeting? Was that deemed? Okay, in what board session? Did someone say? Yes, that's okay. Well, we know now because the various people have been sued off the back of it and had to make amends. But it's the kind of conversation that as you saying, we need to make safe. Why are these decisions being made that was in the pursuit of profit, not in the pursuit of purpose, and you can see how badly it went wrong. Now, I'm not saying we're all going to be doing something quite as bad as Volkswagen have, but my God, they need to pay for that. But there are lots of things we can do. If we use something like that people that help us see the business in its totality, and understand what might be going wrong, or where we could achieve better gains in a purposeful way. Yeah, wonderful. I love the fact that as you say, it isn't like a magic wand or a panacea that you adopt the system, what it does is it facilitates that discussion, it kind of creates that environment or Shukria, the environment where leaders can kind of look at the business with real clarity, you know, rather than looking through the optics of shareholder value of bottom line, or whatever it might be, but just looking at it in a slightly different context, I suppose, is another way of doing and also want to pick up the piece that you said, around people as advocates, because I think that ties in slightly with the products you mentioned there that product or service do they deliver against a purpose that you kind of go out with? And this comes back to a word which gets mentioned a lot in the beautiful business podcasts? And that's around authenticity. Are you doing what you say you do? You know, are you walking the walk as well as doing the talk? I think that runs parallel both in terms of the people and also the product, because as he say, you know, the Volkswagen example is a really good one, you know, where they haven't really stayed true to their purpose and really stay true to the values. And the other part of it is and you mentioned the word advocacy a couple of times as well, both in terms of people in terms of product as well, it's so powerful, isn't it? When somebody else says something good about you, not just you saying, Look at me, I'm amazing. I do this all the time. But if you've got other people doing it, and then you extend that by one more, and we used to say this a lot when we were hiring people, and when you interview people make them want if you don't end up offering the job, you want them to be gutted that they didn't get it because they could be the person sat down at the pub with somebody else, the dream employee of the future. And they're saying, I was thinking about applying to go and work with Nicky in that person who turned down to him, I've got Oh, I went for an interview with it. I've so wish I got that job. And that is almost you know, in terms of this war on talent, having that advocacy, even from somebody who doesn't work for you is incredibly powerful. So I love the fact that people are in the PS in the 70s Well, we create a business didn't we without us it would not exist. I know we have this huge thing about tech being the future. But without us it does not exist and we are still a heart and soul of it and we will continue to be so you know we're going to work in 100 habitat by Billy just on this people thing and and about making it safe to have these conversations. There's a running example, which many listeners may know about Ed Catmull from Pixar, when Toy Story was first put together, he saw the rushes and he said this chemical out there had all the slots booked in terms of premieres and all of the cinemas waiting for it to go. And he said it's not good enough. Now there's a high level in animation and anything that creative there's a high level of ego involved in terms of creating something as amazing as a toy story, but it wasn't amazing. So what Ed Catmull did was said, Okay, we're going to put all our egos at the door. We're going to create this thing called the brain trust. We all get together and we rip Toy Story apart and we're going to rebuild it is not good enough. I don't mind who did what bit, I just want us to get it to a good place. If you can't leave your ego at the door, you do not come in live, you're gonna come in let's talk about this and this ticket bar. And then we bought it and they did it from scratch. And Toy Story defined a generation. That was the bravery of Ed Catmull. And the rest of the team scout. Okay, this isn't a personal This is about us doing something brilliant and doing on purpose and entertaining, and giving kids creativity for the future. The advocacy of the backer Toy Story is almost bigger, I would say, because they did it on purpose, and delivery got it, right, because they made people feel safe in the process. And I'm not saying this is easy. Yes, some of this is really hard. But we need to play to our human spirit to get this right. And that's where leaders absolutely need to step into their frame and say, This is not personal. This is about getting it right. So we're doing on purpose. 

Yiuwin Tsang  15:49  

Yeah. And that's a skill in itself isn't to create that culture, to create that trust. It's what it comes down to, isn't it? It's that trust bit. And to be able to say to your team, nobody's going to get hung up dry here. There's things that we need to fix. There are things that haven't gone the way that we need them to go, you know, let's have that conversation. Let's have a dialogue around how we can do it. But that will only work when that trust is there. When you have the authenticity when people believe you when you say this is what you're going to do. So it comes back again to living to your purpose, doesn't it? It comes back to living to your values.

Nikki Gatenby  16:15  

On that interview process and with you. And I believe it's a two way interview. Maybe you're both being interviewed. I want someone to support me as much as I may want them kind of thing. You know. That's it. We're human again, you know, we want it to be a job. Well, I remember having the most hideous interview when I was younger, I'd been headhunted for a role. And I don't even remember the scene out of Trainspotting, where spiders on the chair but of the room. And there's a whole panel of people. It wasn't as bad as that clearly. But that's how it felt. And they were firing questions. They'd headhunted me for this role. And I was like, you know, what, if this is how it is to work here, I'm out that didn't go down very well either. But I just thought, my values, your values are not aligned. I would never treat somebody like that an interview. You want them to relax, you want to feel like yeah, they've got to be there. They're a game because that's what you want to work, but you want to be enjoying it as well. And if they're not, what is it that you can do, as well as what they can do to make the situation a human one? Not something antagonistic. And to do them on purpose. 

Yiuwin Tsang  17:08  

I love that. And you're absolutely right, you know, with Chatgpt and AI and all these machines and algorithms that are, you know, coming into the fore now, it makes the importance of being human even more acute, I think you know, and it's a bit of a cliche to say that people attract people but it's so true in so many contexts as well from a client and customer perspective to to an employee perspective, as well. Just you talking about the interview to know that you and just reminded me it's not really related Nikki but reminded when I was applying for Lift I'm really glad didn't get it. Actually, it was a job. Sorry, I was applying for which was to sell Lift maintenance contracts, which is pretty, pretty dynamic, wasn't it? I was like 20 something years old. And in the interview my Hawke's Bay blessing my housemate rang me twice to wish me luck. But it was in the middle of the interview. So my phone rang twice. And it was not, you know, first time was obviously it was a second time I should have switched off and I didn't, but it rang again. I was like, oh, no goodness me, Oh, yeah. Well, there you go. Anyway, they were lovely about it. So I must be honest with you, I didn't really feel like I needed to get that job. So that's probably for the best. So the people as it sounds like a fabulous tool that business owners, business leaders and management teams can kind of use I love the fact that it gives a grounding to the conversations to be had around those seven P's around purpose positioning people, products, Planet platform, and also profit, as you say, not a dirty word. But it sits as a piece of the puzzle rather than the whole puzzle itself. I guess it's a nice way of putting it. But what can business leaders do in your mind where they can be both purpose led and profitable? Because everything that we've been talking about here, Nikki has been the fact that the two coexist, it's not one at the expense of other if anything, get the rest of it, right. Profit will come along, too. So what's your thoughts there? What's your kind of general position on that?

Nikki Gatenby  18:54  

 Absolute clarity. Clear is kind of one of my favourite statements from Brene. Brown, because unclear is unkind. If we really clear what we're doing and where we're headed. It makes a lot of sense in terms of decision making, and why things happen and why things don't happen. If it's not clear where we're headed. They're in chaos. I like a little bit of chaos, but too much chaos means you can't be creative because your head is full of how does this work. So having clarity is so important. And purpose can be that clarity, if it's lived. So as leaders, it's setting the path but then giving people freedom to do their own thing to get there. So without the clarity, I think things like Volkswagen can happen with the clarity, amazing things can happen. You can always see the difference. We've got something we need to aim for let's all head in this direction and let people have the space to do that and offer people personal responsibility. One of things I learned really early when I was leading teams was done there. Other people outsource their careers to you that sounds quite about face. But a lot of time in work people expect their career to be led by others, or promotion prospects are put in front of them. My advice is you aren't the master of your own career. Take it, it's your responsibility. If you're the leader, this business has got 100 people, 40 people at however many people, they probably haven't gotten the headspace to manage everybody else's careers brilliantly, they can give you the sprinkles and safety nets. But if they're really clear and lead, it's really clear where we're headed you as the person within the team, take responsibility for your career, and where you're headed, and where you're going next. Secondly, don't let people outsource their happiness to someone else. We're all in charge our own minds, our own happiness, that's quite a big statement. But don't look beyond your own mind all the time for your own happiness. Social media is a killer for this looking for the constant comparison, versus the kid of joy. Let's look inside for our own happiness and generate our own happiness as a leader, help people to do that. Let them see what they're brilliant at. You know, at school, we're taught to research and read and have an opinion on something. What about our own opinion? What about how we think and feel what's coming from inside to recap, as a leader, be clear, don't let people outsource their development, help them to take responsibility for it, and ask them to take responsibility for their own happiness. Because that way, if everyone said he was Was he for themselves, Oh, my God, that collective responsibility goes up in the direction that will head Oh, I love it. Incredible. Sounds like a great place to work. It sounds amazing. I love this whenever I speak with guests on this podcast, because it always as you're speaking, I end up self reflecting thinking, I've done that definitely done that. I've seen that being done. But then also in a personal context, you kind of see that. And there is a level of freedom that comes isn't that is that when you are empowered to do that. And the reality is, it's quite a brave thing to do to kind of take that into your own hands. And there's perhaps a bit of confidence, there's a bit of inner resolve that you need in order to do that. And that can sometimes be hard to find. So as a leader, if you are able to help people find that inner resolve that kind of inner confidence, and love that idea of springboards and safety nets is beautiful. But to empower people to do that, as you say, and that in itself, it becomes a almost like a self charging culture. They're of people that feel like they're in control of their own destiny, who are in control of their own happiness. But within this clearly defined kind of purpose is clearly defined goals. And with the seven P's the facility to discuss in a safe place, those areas that will make a positive difference, a positive impact when it comes to balancing both purpose and profit. Indeed, there's another angle to this in terms of what leaders can do is ask people to take personal responsibility for how they treat themselves. Because what was a listen to Jimmy Carr the other day, this as I want to. He's a comedian, but he's also quite forceful. And I was listening to him on the Stephen Bartlett diversity hour, I want a completely different perspective on the guy. And he's written a book called before laughter. And he talks about the fact that if when you were a teenager, you're given a car, and you were told it's the only car you're ever going to own. And it had to last for your life? How would you treat it? Where would you keep it? How would you treat it in terms of how you drove it? How would you feel it? How would you let others treat it? What would you do to keep it running? Well, how often would you check in on it, all of these and you see what their average is going? So okay, so you're the car? How are you going to treat yourself for the next 7080 years? 90 100 Emily, but you've got you think about how you're going to treat yourself and treat yourself well. And again, don't outsource that to others. If you're an expert, brilliant, get an expert involved should ignore change, you know, but think about how you can do the best for you. And again, as leaders, sometimes we need to help people with that conversation, because we can expect it to come from others quite a lot. Yeah, I'm just thinking a little bit back to what you said there about comparison. What did you say the comparison is the thief of joy is a fifth of this session. He is just bombarding me my brain is. Swimming is a wonderful comparison. Being the thief of joy is such an accurate phrase, I think touches on briefly I know that we're not going to go too much into it in this interview, but in and around founders and leaders, their own kind of mental health, you know, their own kind of resilience, these sorts of things. I think that things like LinkedIn, this whole kind of the humble brag kind of culture and stuff like that. It does get quite unhealthy at times. And what you said, just remind me of it, I think isn't one of the kids books actually a little bit biassed because 11, one of his books I read, I think, and he said that you shouldn't compare yourself to others. That's not the right comparison to make you compare yourself to yourself. So you know, don't compare yourself to how another company founders doing compares of how you did last year, how you did last quarter, you know, in your measure, as you say is more internal rather than external. And in many ways that helps you focus on the right fix? Absolutely. Because you don't know what else is going on in that person's world, you have no idea. Because what we see is the 10% people would have put on the social profiles. And there's a really interesting thing if you look at how we use all of your hire tools we have when we're using social tools is one perspective of us when we're using private tools like Google search is another and we did some research into young moms and things they were put on Instagram in terms of always having my baby sleeping and young dads, and then the searches they do oh my god, I've had no sleep, you know, it's completely the mirror image. And the economy is really stressful for all people involved and it's to put the image we portray is only a tiny proportion of it. So take that into any realm of life. The business image people portray and there are some people think you're very honest, sharing others but most people are showing the two. The last one kibitz. Or there's an awful lot of just saying things for saying things sake, and just to be there is that we'll be there with purpose and we come back to that word. Don't just be there, be there for a reason. Be there to help others. Be there in service of others and yourself. 

Yiuwin Tsang  25:14  

Thank you so much, Nikki Gatenby for joining us on this week's Beautiful Business Podcast. It was a real pleasure to hear your ideas, your insights and your inspiration when it comes to purpose for businesses. 

Yiuwin Tsang  25:25  

Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. 

Yiuwin Tsang  25:33  

Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk