In this week’s podcast, Yiuwin Tsang talks to Alex Holliman about building an empowered and loyal team at Climbing Trees and how Alex has put in place real benefits for his employees to help them in both their personal and professional lives. Alex believes in having transparency in your business, particularly in difficult times, so that everyone is aligned with goals and targets. This podcast explains how you build passion and engagement in your team and how that helps grow and protect your business for the future.
About Alex Holliman:
Following a career at top media agencies, Alex founded digital marketing agency, Climbing Trees. Here, he leads a team of search and social experts who share his passion for cultivating a values-led culture. Alex's commitment to sustainability and his desire to build this into every aspect of his business make him a rare breed of agency owner.
In this week’s podcast, Yiuwin Tsang talks to Alex Holliman about building an empowered and loyal team at Climbing Trees and how Alex has put in place real benefits for his employees to help them in both their personal and professional lives. Alex believes in having transparency in your business, particularly in difficult times, so that everyone is aligned with goals and targets. This podcast explains how you build passion and engagement in your team and how that helps grow and protect your business for the future.
About Alex Holliman:
Following a career at top media agencies, Alex founded digital marketing agency, Climbing Trees. Here, he leads a team of search and social experts who share his passion for cultivating a values-led culture. Alex's commitment to sustainability and his desire to build this into every aspect of his business make him a rare breed of agency owner.
Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy and softly grown.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, I'm part of the Beautiful Business Team and this week I was joined by Alex Holliman.
Yiuwin Tsang
Alex is the founder and managing director of Climbing Trees, a B Corp certified forward thinking, ethically minded PPC and SEO agency who are experts at Google and Facebook ads. Alex leads a team of 16 talented digital marketing experts who are on a mission to create a positive impact for their clients on the planet. Before this, Alex spent 20 years working in global media giants and independent agencies, Alex is all about trying to do business in a better way, advocating for positive change, and climbing trees is working hard towards his goal of becoming net zero, and are in the process of planting 1 million trees by 2030. With 265,000 Already in the ground.
Yiuwin Tsang
Let's talk about growing and retaining the team. Tell us a bit about the Climbing Trees team. How big is it? What's the structure? How does it work?
Alex Holliman
So we're 15 or 16, strong, I think in terms of we've got two clear sides: paid and organic. And so we have leads on those. And we're going through a process of working out with thinking about the language we use for job titles. And so we're going to do that collaboratively. And then we're thinking about restructuring. Because what we know is where we are in our journey has got us here. But to then if we want to double in size over the next two or three years, it probably will hold us back. So we need to do a piece of work there. In terms of structure. I'm not a big fan of job titles. And I've had to surrender into being managing director. I think before that I was founder but part of my growing up has been stepping up to be managing director, I'm not a big fan of job titles that imply sort of leadership or control. I do recognise that job titles are important internally for people working out where they are in the scheme of things. And then externally in terms of first impressions, where does this person fit in? And so we're going to talk about what language you use across the business in terms of job descriptions. Yeah, so we broadly got these two sides of the business, we've got an admin function, which takes up admin finance, marketing, and there's a sort of, you know, emergent roles of appearing will hope to recruit someone for marketing later on this year. And I think as much as possible, I just try and get out of the way of the team, though performance managed accounts. And we've recruited Jody who's performance lead, who's coming in to try and help people onboard new clients, and then also maximise the potential that we have with our existing stable of clients.
Yiuwin Tsang
So that sounds like that's a real, if not in terms of job titles. And it seems funny, doesn't it? It's almost like the cart before the horse, you know, it feels like you need to know what the function is, what are they responsible for? What do you need be really good at, you know, what do we need them to do? And then you can work out what title fits almost perfect?
Alex Holliman
Absolutely, I think we're taking an approach where we're gonna have people that are not client facing they're just technical deliverable will then have account management function will have project management functions as well. So there's an evolutionary piece that we're going on.
Yiuwin Tsang
Is this where the playbook comes in, when we spoke before he talked about the climbing trees playbook. And the big thing for you about enabling transparency with the team?
Alex Holliman
I think that, you know, we've doubled down and it's mainly inspired by the B Corp thing. So we offer coaching, mentoring trainings, 100% of our staff are trained in last year, we provide mental health support, we're doing a whole six week project on mental health and dealing with stress, because agency life can be quite stressful. And it's something we continually need to do better on. And so we're doing that, I think that's starting in a few weeks time. So we really try and look after our people. We've got private medical insurance, we pay really, really competitive rates, the majority of our team have had bonuses over last year, we gave a cost of living bonus, which didn't want our staffing the pinch going into last winter. And so we really retain our people. And I think that's a big thing for me in terms of as a stakeholder, I could lowball people in terms of salary, make loads of savings, not bother training them and that kind of thing and have more dividends to take out. And I think short term, I probably better off for it. But longer term, I probably end up having a high staff turnover, more problems. So there's a balance with that pace. And I think in terms of legacy to be an employer that really gives a damn and cares about their staff. That's important to me. And so we do things like going into the pandemic, I presented saying the cashflow, so I was worried about the business. So I thought that'd be worried about the business. They knew what was going on each day, we were getting one or two calls from clients saying we're going to pause your activity, we're going to stop our activity. And so we presented the cash flow forecast, we had the cash in the bank so they could see our run rate on the bottom line. This is what's in this is what's out. This is how far we've got to go. Because what I didn't want to do with the young team is just turn around one day and say to them, yeah, job you've had for last few years. Well, you've gone so I wanted to take them on that journey we didn't have though. We sort of shared that much information coming into last year. I said always sort of prepare for the worst but then suit for the best psychologically. It's probably really unhealthy of me. But I think what I wanted is if we did go into recession and clients were cancelling, I gave my team a recessionary playbook in terms of this is what would happen. And so we've built up reserves in the business whereby we would aggressively go after new business for three months to replace any sort of losses and that kind of stuff, we have that to activate it. But what I didn't want is my team thinking, what happens if we do lose clients, when we do go into recession, I wanted to own that sort of narrative, and reassure them that they would have a three month plan to actually go after new business and try and make up any shortfalls.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's interesting. And again, it's that level of transparency with team through the good times and the bot, I suppose it helps build that engagement, it helps comes back to trust as well. So they trust you. And again, I certainly felt in teams I worked in past when you do have that level of trust, when you do have that level, transparency unlocks, you know, just that bit extra people just going over and above and might be that they just worked a bit harder, or whatever it might be, but they don't begrudge it, you know, they want to there's that passion, there's that desire to, you know, almost for the benefit of all, you know, to dig a bit deeper, because there is that empowerment almost.
Alex Holliman
Absolutely. And I think there's nothing, you know, I've been in a situation whereby an agency has gone on the run of losing a few clients, and everyone's been put up for redundancy. And you see the shock and trauma that people have to go through. And I think there's an opportunity to do things in a more forward thinking we're seeing at the moment. So most tech companies are letting go of 10 20% of their staff, in anticipation of whatever's coming later on in 2023, after probably having spent millions and millions to recruit the staff, they're just letting go off. And then probably in two or three years, they'll have to spend millions and millions to do feel that there is a you know, if part of the B Corp community doing this thing called the Better Business Act, where they're trying to change directors, fiduciary responsibility so that it's not purely to return profit to shareholders, you can make decisions that place importance on people on planet as well, almost includes like these large tech companies were able to say, well, actually, what we know is we're not going to return profits to shareholders for next two years. But these people we've recruited and the livelihoods, their families, we're going to look after them because we know we're going to need them in two or three years when we come out whatever we're going into, but they don't have that ability based on the current or business FOMO.
Yiuwin Tsang
No, we don't. It's a short termism as well as these kind of quarterly stakeholder meetings or shareholder meetings and reports and things like this is that you know, they can't see past the three month window. And I think that just does not help the situation, as you say, and that's
Alex Holliman
how businesses set up globally. And I think this Better Business Act, the UK have one of the most considered business acts globally. And we would then move into the position of being the beacon of hope for business globally, as well. So I think there's tremendous potential for it. So I will say, I think he's going through like parliament and being read and that kind of thing.
Yiuwin Tsang
That'd be really interesting. If nothing else, almost like a litmus test to see how much power there is that you know, the influence and power that you know, these bigger culprits and the people who sit on those boards have, you know, to kind of affect these kind of movements. And there's a lot I hear you speak so passionately about making difference and making change and looking after your team that must speak a lot to the culture within the team. And the culture that you build, there are climbing trees, what how would you describe the culture there and near the bit that would be really interested in that would be? How do you protect it and make sure that there aren't, you know, negative influences on it.
Alex Holliman
So I think our recruitment processes are the most considered, there have been, I'm not necessarily involved in those these days. And so we make sure that we're recruiting the best person for the role, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or whatever. So we've got a really sort of diverse mix in the team. And that's something that we still have progress to make. Culturally, I think we're supportive of each other, we look out for each other. And I think everyone in the team, if I look at them, I can see how they're putting their shoulders to the wheel to actually push us on because we're a growing business, you know, I look around the business, there's opportunity for improvement everywhere, it's a really good position to be in, you could look at it another way, say there's loads of stuff that's broken, but you know, bend to his ankle you look at and, you know, I just sort of, you know, I have confidence that with effort will just push on and achieve the targets that we've set ourselves.
Yiuwin Tsang
It's so important, isn't it, especially for a smaller company that as you say, if everybody's putting the shoulder to the wheel, if everybody's putting their best foot forward and fighting mechanic, that kind of good fight, it has this amazing kind of compound effect on everybody else, doesn't it, if almost feels then out of place, that if there's somebody who isn't doing it, as I say, you know, not to the point where you know, the knives and the daggers kind of come out, but almost to the point where they don't fit the square peg in the round hole. And it almost becomes a self managing self guiding kind of thing.
Alex Holliman
Absolutely. And we have people that are permanent part time. And so what we don't want is them overworking. So they're part time because they've got family commitments that they want to fulfil whilst having a engaging career. And so we're very clear that we don't want people just to have a culture of presenteeism or overworking. But there are always situations where you will have to go above and beyond. And there's no moaning and groaning from the team on that. And I think that, you know, we're just in a place where the majority of people are really sort of pushing hard, pushing themselves and growing. So where they were two years ago Go to where they are today. They have developed in their careers, I know that I have personally and that's just a continual sort of process. And I think this, the big thing is about what's got us here will not get a story rather be in two or three years. And so we need to do better. And so there's probably a culture of dissatisfaction in some ways, not in a horrible sort of blame culture kind of way. But there are opportunities for improvement across the whole piece.
Yiuwin Tsang
100% It is really interesting, I often think the biggest organisation that I've worked for had most like 150 as an like, proper job, not like it was called job kind of thing. And I almost feel like we're quite lucky when we run these businesses, you know, 10, 20 ,30 kind of employee size, where it's really hard to hide, it's easy to spot the people that are being carried. Whereas as you get to the challenge will be when climbing trees gets to that 40/50 employees size, when it's harder to spot, that kind of thing. I guess that's where the new set of challenges will come
Alex Holliman
absolutely in the as yet not existing HR function that climbing trees can deal with all that stuff.
Yiuwin Tsang
Great. So I want to touch on very briefly, just we've got a couple more minutes left about the sustainability part because you're part of the million tree pledge, I believe, are climbing trees. Yeah. And there's over a quarter of a million trees planted through you guys up all right. Yeah,
Alex Holliman
I think he's Yes, absolutely. Since I turned 65, or something 1000.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's incredible. What kind of effect does that have on the team? Is it a big deal for you? I mean, it's a lovely thing to have on the website, I think it's a lovely thing to do the right thing to do from a planning perspective, doesn't have an effect on the team. Do you feel that it has effect on the culture of the people to some degree?
Alex Holliman
Yes, I think that, you know, this stemmed out or grew from the B Corp application process, I've never considered our impact on the environment. And so we've doubled down on that side of things. And we've used a tool that Bheema share where you can go through a course and measure your own carbon footprint, we did that for 2019, which was a benchmark prior to lock down 2020, we've worked with an external provider to provide accurate data for 21. We're just finishing off modelling 2020 toes out there. And so in terms of sustainability, my enthusiasm to join the million tree pledge was, you know, there's worse legacies to have in the world than to have contributed 5 million trees of those million, a certain percentage will grow through and start sequestering carbon and putting things right. And I think for me, it's a symbolic thing based on the fact that for 10 years are in the business I didn't think about this fun thing wasn't in my mind, I was oblivious to it, just keeping the lights on making payroll and not thinking about it. And so there's a certain amount of wanting to put things right, like personally and for the business. But then for the team as well, we more than offset anything that we do for the business, I think the sustainability, I probably did it that put the horse before the cart in as much as the first thing we did was offsetting. And then we looked at the electric, we're speaking to getting quotes to try and get some funding so that we can retrofit insulation in the office, change the lighting, so it's not this horrible fluorescent strip lighting, and then have automated switches. So the office is actually more energy efficient. We've changed how we go on our team trips rather than flying we get the train that we try and default meetings to video rather than in person. There's massive need in our world to always have face to face meetings. And so we try and then default to public transport or car sharing. Whereas there were years when I was doing 25 30,000 miles in a little diesel car running around trying to you know, hoover up business. That was what we were doing, things have changed. And so I think it's a sort of foundational element. And if you've got a choice between as a business owner of running your business sustainably or not doing it, I think most people choose to do it sustainably. Maybe they don't know about it. And I was certainly ignorant of it.
Yiuwin Tsang
You were saying from a founders perspective, doing the right thing? I guess, like who wouldn't want to do it? And I suppose from a culture from a team perspective, as well, I guess it's another way of showing that it's not just talk, you know that you are doing it, and you are living your purpose?
Alex Holliman
Absolutely. I don't think that wants to set ourselves up as being perfect. I think that we're very, very far from that with trying to be the kind of business that the world of the future needs. And we've got a massive amount of stuff still to carry on doing. Do you know a lot about emissions and scope one, two and three emissions?
Yiuwin Tsang
Not a huge amount, give me the highlights.
Alex Holliman
So scope one emissions or if we had a gas boiler on the premises we'd actually be emitting on the premises scope to are things like if I was buying non renewable energy and scope three of the services and so we have in the business know scope one emissions, scope two emissions is there are some emissions, even if you're renewable when the energy is sent down the not pipes or tubes down the scope, three emissions and then what we buy, so far, I've got an accountant that is sustainable, and one that isn't our money's going in one way. It's like with banking, it's the same with the stationery we buy the machines we buy. So everything we buy, we stay in hotels, you can stay in like environmentally friendly ones or less environmentally friendly ones. If we go on a business trip, you can fly business class, you can go first class or you can go economy an economy is much more efficient based on the room that it takes up. So there are all number of kids situations with how you spend your money. And I think the process we've worked with with our external consultant is to try and uncover where we need to do better, so that we can then try and manage that and then reduce it. And so yeah, it'll be interesting to see where our 2022 data's got to. Because the world from 21 to 22 was very different in terms of pandemic being over things opening up us doing more stuff. And so my theory is we're actually making per employee more of a negative impact on the environment than we were during lockdown. So then we have to start thinking about what actually how can we change things. So that's why I'm always at pains to say, even though we're doing all this stuff, we will still be having an impact. And that's what we need to try and do better on.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you so much to Alex from Climbing Trees for joining us in this episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast. I really enjoyed our chat and I hope you enjoyed listening to it.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Businesses is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk