In this thought-provoking episode of our podcast John Gilbert, MD of eski and Yiuwin Tsang delve into the transformative power of storytelling and how it can be harnessed to create a compelling documentary that showcases your social impact. We explore how storytelling can be a catalyst for change, igniting empathy, and inspiring action in an increasingly connected and visually-driven world.
Tune in and discover how to elevate your cause, amplify your message, and leave a lasting impact on the world.
About John Gilbert:
John Gilbert is the founder and managing director of eski, a media agency specialising in working with the NHS, charities and purposeful businesses to create social good through campaigns and filmmaking.
He and his team have produced several national and international award-winning films and campaigns on subjects including mental health, organised crime, sexual exploitation, cancer prevention and domestic abuse.
In this thought-provoking episode of our podcast John Gilbert, MD of eski and Yiuwin Tsang delve into the transformative power of storytelling and how it can be harnessed to create a compelling documentary that showcases your social impact. We explore how storytelling can be a catalyst for change, igniting empathy, and inspiring action in an increasingly connected and visually-driven world.
Tune in and discover how to elevate your cause, amplify your message, and leave a lasting impact on the world.
About John Gilbert:
John Gilbert is the founder and managing director of eski, a media agency specialising in working with the NHS, charities and purposeful businesses to create social good through campaigns and filmmaking.
He and his team have produced several national and international award-winning films and campaigns on subjects including mental health, organised crime, sexual exploitation, cancer prevention and domestic abuse.
Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy and softly grown.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hi, folks. Welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business team, and I was lucky enough to be joined by John Gilbert from eski media in this episode. John Gilbert is the founder and managing director of eski, a media agency specialising in working with NHS police, charities, and purposeful businesses to create social good through campaigns and filmmaking. He and his team have produced several national and international award winning films and campaigns on subjects including mental health, organised crime, sexual exploitation, cancer prevention and domestic abuse.
Yiuwin Tsang
This was a fantastic interview. Jon's a fantastic guy. And there's some amazing advice he shared throughout this chat. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
Yiuwin Tsang
So let's talk about the making a documentary about your social impact. The context of this is obviously where you have organisations who, whether it be aligned to the product or service, do they do that they create social impact? Or if it is that they create social impact outside of their core kind of business? Give us a rundown on some of the impact documentaries you have done so and get a sense of the work that you and the team have undertaken.
John Gilbert
Yeah, so essentially, just Firstly, if I define what we're talking about, we call it social impact filmmaking, which basically means showing the positive difference that you make through stories. And so it's not an advert for your products and services. As you said, I guess our first big step into this was stemmed from a conversation that I had with a head of a solicitor spams who works on medical negligence cases, or ambulance chasers that used to be called they do a lot of good work, but they had a reputation that comes with part of being within that sector. But speaking to the the founder of that around the team, and the cases that we're working on, it was just constantly clear to me just how many wonderful stories, the real difference that they make to people that had, and one particular documentary that we made was called two decades, and it was about the subpostmasters scandal. Now, for those who don't know, that was the horizon software system that was implemented across the post office led to the wrong conviction of several subpostmasters who were accused, convicted, sometimes find sometimes imprisoned falsely for the fact that it's because it was a software error.
Yiuwin Tsang
It was awful, right? Yeah.
John Gilbert
It's still rumbling on now. I mean, people refer to it as that, in terms of quantity, the largest miscarriage of justice that we've seen in the UK in a long time, you'll see that it's still going through the courts at the moment. Now, our client within this been the firm of solicitors was passionate about making sure that these victims had advice. So the approach that we took for two decades, tell the story some of the postmasters who were kind enough and brave enough to come forward and talk about their experience. And take us through that journey, which in times is heartbreaking, you've got people who, whose reputation whose inner village had been completely destroyed, because they'd been the first master that everybody knew the community. So you've seen in the whole time, and they weren't, is a chap in the film, who spent his 60th birthday in prison, again, a time didn't didn't know if he was going to make it through. Fortunately, he has done and all these people who are losing money, they've lost their jobs and lost a reputation. And the way that the post office responded to this was to isolate them, and to make them feel as though they were the only one. So therefore, they must be guilty. And it wasn't until they got together in a village hall, when these people started sharing all of these common stories and realise, actually, there's probably something more going on here. Now, that's a very short and oversimplified version of the case. And now that culpability has been meeting but it's anything found in that sense on an organisational level, if not at an individual level yet, and hopefully, they will get the compensation to help put the rest of the lives in not necessarily what they deserve. And to go forward. Now, the way we could have approached this was to make basically a long ad about the solicitors and what a great service they've done. But that would be a mix an ad, who cares about that it will connect with the audience, we produce something that was much more about those bits and voices to tell that story, along with independent voices of others, great people who will cover the story in visual that these people had a voice that was passing through the media and through the justice system and produce from this is a compelling 25 minute documentary. And the purpose of this was not a marketing tool. It wasn't a selling tool. It was to give their clients voices to build the relationship with the client. Now with the backup app, you've now got something that you can be used for internal communications, where it's just like this is really what we're doing. And the difference is the work that you put in MCs to real people in real life situations. By making it available online, it can act as a recruitment tool. In this particular case, we know somebody who actually joined up departments when we met them when we were filming on another project and said, we said, why did you start working here? Because we've been working in commercial radio and they said, Well, we watched this film two decades. We just thought this is an organisation that wants to be part of either that's true or incredible sycophancy on that person. I'd like to believe as the former but, but yeah, you start to kind of connect with people's hearts and minds in that sense. Again, it is difficult to do explain briefly, if anybody's listening wants that. Just simply do some YouTube, just Google two decades, postmasters and you'll find it. But again, it's that kind of the human side of things. And actually, we all worked really hard on most of us work really hard. And we're not always connected to the customers and seeing what different sell products and services. But if you tell that story in the right word, I hope we did hear an increase in some very powerful
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah. 100%. And it's really interesting, that example, where he gave us, you know, almost like this vampirish charicature of legal firm, which ambulance chasers as he basically said, I don't think they appreciate the way I described it, but I've done it now.
Yiuwin Tsang
However, it just goes to show first of all the power of stories. But secondly, I think that, you know, the way that I've kind of phrased this question, when I send them over to you, John was about how do you avoid the kind of greenwash or the purpose wash kind of effect that you know that so easy to kind of fall into these sorts of things. And as you say, it's been really interesting, because the easy way, the lazy way of doing this could have just been another look at how much money we got back for our clients, you know, in this kind of stuff. But you didn't do that. It was about the stories, it was about that human connection part, which I think is where that kind of impact came from. And I know it was a bit of an extreme example of, you know, the public psyche of a kind of claims, baseless, legal firm chasing after ambulances. But I think it is incredibly powerful that that by talking about impact, talking about the kind of positive changes you make to people and people live in a sympathetic way. And what I'm taking from this, John, is that the way that you produce this the way that you kind of structured this was around stories around the victims, it was around the people, it might be completely wrong, but there was no mention of a solicitor any stage turning up with a suit or anything like that.
John Gilbert
But you know, it's funny, you wouldn't, because the victims and the clients themselves, they were so positive about their experience from the solicitor, that even a strange situation of getting all of this testimonial goal and knowing that none of that is going to make the film. Because if you do that you risk discrediting the film. So I mean, maybe they can use it for something else. Yeah. So it's a rare situation in marketing, where you're like, Oh, yeah.
Yiuwin Tsang
Funny, I mean, there'll be some, I'm sure, some ego somewhere that would love to hear that. But whatsoever. So my but you're right, because it comes back to that piece. And I think society and people as a whole, I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing. But there seems to be a level of cynicism in the world, where, you know, is this a green washing thing? Is this a purpose washing exercise, whatever it might be. And I suppose the reality is that from a comms perspective, whether you're producing a video for a client, or if you're trying to produce something for yourself, for your own business, so you need to understand that there is this level of cynicism in the world. And you need to know how you navigate around it is that the right way of putting it as far as understanding how you tell the story so that you don't fall victim to that cynicism, of purpose washing.
John Gilbert
I think you can only stick to the truth. And again, the environment we're talking here is not around here is a list of the good things that this organisation does, I'm sure that's got its place in it reporting and tendering and such like, here, it is just the truth. It's an individual or a group of individuals. And it's their story. And that level of authenticity. Hopefully, that's where people can tell the difference. Because if you say in terms of an ad, is sort of so easy to just hire an actor and have them say something positive about the experience that they've had, or just stock photography, with somebody saying a nice quote, and I think to do these things, all that, but that's what video does, you can tell certainly twice the whites of their eyes, the way that they tremble at the moment where they're recounting an emotional experience, that is humans were pretty good at picking up on that level of authenticity.
Yiuwin Tsang
So in terms of the mistakes that you've seen folks make when it comes to sharing the success of their impact, because this is the I suppose the sad kind of fable that could come out of this is that you could actually do some incredible impact in the work that you do. But if you tell it in the wrong way, it becomes like what Fraser come across as like horn tooting, tooting your own horn kind of thing. Right. And to a degree, I suppose you are in many senses, but it's how they do it. I mean, have there been any examples or any kind of big mistakes that you kind of warn your clients of or that you're trying to avoid with the work that you do when it comes to sharing success of impact?
John Gilbert
Well, I think if you ask on Tuesday, it's gone too far. And it's about being able to hold your nerve and resist the urge to do that. That said, they say like actions speak louder than words. We've seen that happen with other businesses that probably the Patagonia actually recently with. Yeah. I mean, that was a clothing brand, but they've always had this in mind. Effectively just giving the company away to social causes that are there to help the environment is pretty big statement in there. And there are so it's interesting because if you look at the Gates Foundation, and I only found out recently that rolex, I mean, this was such an exclusive brand, it's which I would have had issues with global selling people, something that's overpriced and shiny that, frankly, you don't need these days, you don't need to watch. But actually, what they do with their profits is invested into courses. So I think really, that you probably can't, you can't come up with a clever marketing campaign that people aren't going to see through it, there's no real substance behind it, there's got to be actions speak louder than words. And if you don't have that social purpose in terms of how the revenue of your company profits are invested, it doesn't mean that you aren't still having that product. To me, it's not a dirty thing, if you are still making that positive difference. The thing to look at is those individual stories, as I said earlier on and do that by asking your team, it's not just the marketing department, it's not just as your business owners, it's the I'll give you an example. We're producing a film at the moment for a group of companies who have interested in retail and construction, they're very clear space in the north of England. And we're making a film about what their company culture is. And what we've done through this documentary is incredible examples, actually, where they do make a real difference in the community right down to an individual level, have a long standing customer who was an example of going on making skies Christmas dinner and spending Christmas day with him to make sure that he's not an out there may not be aware of this within the marketing department in the PR department level. It's not until you really involve the full organisation team that you've found some really great examples. Now that example, we're not going to make a film about that that wouldn't be on it that would be really kind of self congratulatory, but those kind of heroes and villains things that make up the culture of an organisation, it's appropriate for them to talk about internally.
Yiuwin Tsang
Interesting. Just to kind of elaborate on that a little bit more. Are there any exercises? Or is there any kind of process that you go through when you're working with clients on how you unearth some of these stories? How you kind of bring up some of these human stories and experiences?
John Gilbert
Yeah, so my main company is eski. I also co own a company called storyboard. And within storyboard, we employ journalists, we have a full time journalist, and she will go and find those stories is the short answer. And I try not to be flippant about it, but he's just asking questions and showing a genuine interest in people. And once you do that, particularly people don't normally get asked these kinds of questions, they will, they'll tell you, and you'll want to do it that way. And the big question that we get, probably too much is why booty binds a great question. Because you may be asked why you do something, you may never have thought about it before. And within that, that's where the truth lies.
Yiuwin Tsang
Brilliant. That's really awesome. So it's just on that kind of practical level, then if I was to within my organisation, just kind of like, you know, sit down and say, like, we want to kind of showcase, you know, some of the stuff that we do not necessarily for commercial gain or things like this, I just think you know, it's important, and it's important to us, it would be that I'd be asking questions internally, why why do we do this? And you know, what is it? What's the purpose behind it? And I suppose it's just having that dialogue come that openness, that conversation,
John Gilbert
being really honest about the answer, as well as say, why don't you do anything? So I also want to help people, why do you want to help people that will lead you then to the truth? And, and if that truth is, in my truth is, because I like it, when people say thank you, you've done a really good job, their job. And that makes me feel better. And the more I hear that, the more experience, you have to do it. And certainly we've looked at the purpose of this as an organisation. Absolutely. When I find out the campaign that we've done, they'll service will have saved people's lives, when somebody comes forward and says, This has made a real difference to me, it's connected to I thought this was just me. And I don't feel so alone right now, whatever that topic that feels good. So does bring us to do something because we hear you guys are really good at this kind of work. And we just want to work with you as your specialist. That boosts the ego. And it's an obviously there's a commercial driver in around these things all feed into each other. You can't pay the bills of positive feedback. But the market gives you positive feedback when people trust you with some of the sensitive work that we're privileged to work on.
Yiuwin Tsang
Indeed. And I think that's right, I think we have to be honest with ourselves as business founders, but also kind of like couch, the reality of the world that we are in, you know that one of the principles of beautiful businesses has been the profit fuels our journey of creating, and I'm just preaching to the converted. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is it. You know, there's the sound, solid commercial sense of doing our job well, but at the same time, we can't discount the fact that there's a level of Yeah, it's that pride comes through, doesn't it? It's that kind of, you know, knowing that people appreciate the work and the effort and the expertise that you bring to the table.
John Gilbert
Absolutely. And again, I will be the first person to talk about this on a podcast, maybe not even this podcast, but this oversimplification of the geeky guy basically, so reasonably doesn't know the Japanese philosophy but the other simplification of it I like is when you find the thing that you're good at that I like like Venn diagrams, I'm from whole John, then the inventor of the damn Venn diagram is a local, but it's what you do intersects with what you're good at what somebody will pay you to do, what you enjoy doing. And this is a bit that often takes a bit longer. But actually the world needs. So therefore if you do it, it makes the world a better place. What a great place to be. We can't spend all of our time there. Unfortunately, I've tried to set up a small business to spend as much time as there as possible. But absolutely, there needs to be commercial drivers in that retain good people that want and deserve pay increases, they need to feel like they're moving forward and sped on to do that extra piece of work. And if you get that feedback, that gratification, and you enjoy it, and you don't dread going to work the next day, what a great place to be. And he's so fortunate if you can find yourself for periods of time in your career to be able to do that
Yiuwin Tsang
100% could not agree with him or pick into the converted, as you say. Absolutely. And to come back to the point about making a documentary of social, why would businesses kind of do that? As I say, you know, what have you seen? What are the drivers behind it? And what are the benefits of doing it? I guess recruitment is going to be one of those big things, because I think as you say, you know, are we your tribe? Or are we not, you know, and kind of putting the line in the sand, not there. But yeah, from your experience, you know, what have been the good kind of reasons for doing this kind of storytelling for the documentary of storytelling and social impact?
John Gilbert
Yeah, absolutely. Recruitment and Retention is probably the I suppose the heart measure, then benefit of doing something like that there are softer measures around motivation of people at all levels of the organisation showing how you connected with each other, how your work is interrelated, how the leaders of the organisation can see how that culture is filtered through. And then so long as it's considered a secondary goal within that, then there is the opportunity to win business off the back of our you've had previous guests on podcasts, if so if you put two providers next to each other, that provided excellent level of service at roughly the same price, but one of them is very in tune to the creating within their community. Why would you not choose that organisation? So yeah, there is that. But I think really, it's about the people and actually, particularly around retention, because you know, it's like, what do you we've got a partner or you've got friends who are in a completely different worlds of work. And you at the end of the week, say How was your week gone. And we try and pick out the interesting bits that are relatable, but we can never quite do it. Because somebody who works in the police force is never going to fully relate to somebody who's been working a night shift in a warehouse or somebody who's been working in the media industry, to somebody who's self employed somebody who's been working in a large organisation with 20, we have different pressures and cultures, but to be able to actually show somebody something that says, This is what I do. And this is a difference that we make. I know that when we put stuff on social media, and hang on, there's no idea what we do. But if a shoulder of short film, which is your kind of speaking in her language, she helps him to listen when she's going to try your best to listen to me. But if I put it on her TV set for 10 minutes, and then he'll click
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, it's so true. John, you're absolutely right. And is that a contract is that human to human connection, the story pieces in it, it's like how we tell our story we do. And I suppose opening up how relatable the work that we do is through the impact that it creates
John Gilbert
It was one of the keys of marketing is if you're trying to communicate with somebody is to try and put them as the hero measures. They're the hero of their own story. That's how we live our lives, isn't it? Let's be honest. And if you can do that through internal communications, so that if you are a member of an organisation, this is what we're about this lock stamp on. This is a difference that we make. I can't imagine that to be many more efficient ways to boost morale and then have this knock on effect to that retention.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you so much, John from eski for taking the time to take this interview and sharing your advice and your experiences. Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business Podcast.
Yiuwin Tsang
Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk