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Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy, and soulfully grown. Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business team. And this week, I was joined by Kerry Tottingham. Kerry is co director of A Brilliant Thing, a community interest company supporting culture change in organisations, that she runs with a mum and two sisters in the UK. They do this through coaching and consultancy, focusing on strategy, design, reflective practice, and inclusive culture making a brilliant thing works with charities, public sector teams and purpose led businesses. What they love is collaboration, creating change social value, and connecting people across sectors. Hey, let's talk a bit about bringing design thinking into how you grow your business. But perhaps before we jump straight into that maybe you give us a bit of background to you to A Brilliant Thing, what it is that you do and who you do it for.
Kerry Tottingham
I'm Kerry, co director of A Brilliant Thing along with my mum and my two sisters. It's family business, and we're a social enterprise. So the profits that we make from our work, go back into community projects. And my background is as an artist. So I started off as a jobbing artist I didn't drive and I've got this picture of myself with a shopping trolley full of like Willow, and the creative materials on the bus going to different community centres and different schools. And I used to do a lot of teaching creativity and with groups to help them educate about things like wealth, health issues and activism through creative materials and artmaking kind of participatory approaches. But I got sucked up into the charity management world after I found out I was quite good at writing funding applications. And I think I'm quite good at writing funding applications, because I like storytelling. And I like making something in tangible real, which is kind of what we do a brilliant thing now. So yeah, after being an artist, I've done work in charities and the NHS and health sectors and a lot with public sectors. So councils, local authorities, I started A Brilliant Thing, because there seem to be two things that were really important to achieving the outcomes that we want to achieve in the voluntary sector or social purpose sector, which was strategy and culture. And both of those things needed to involve supporting people along the way. So the people that we work with, but also the people that we're doing the workforce. And a lot of the time I was, you know, in online meetings and following Gantt charts and kind of ticking off processes, and I knew that the impact wasn't happening, because we weren't connecting with people. We weren't designing for people we were designing for services, and A Brilliant Thing kind of emerged at the end of the pandemic, where to be honest, I completely burnt myself out and was missing being creative. Because the higher up you go in management, often, the less time you get to play and be expressive and creative. So yeah, that's where Brilliant Thing was kind of birthed. And what we do now is we run organisational development programmes. So we do coaching and team development and away days and retreats with charities and public sector teams. We have some social value projects. And we also do some work around working with trauma and supporting organisations who support people who are suffering, the impacts of trauma, and help them to become trauma informed. So we've got quite a wide range of things that we do across the UK. And we do lots of collaborations as well with other organisations. So that's who we are.
Yiuwin Tsang
Fabulous. It's quite interesting your story about I got this vision of you know, pushing each opportunity with loads of like arty materials and shopping trolley, IKEA bag. I mean, you know, IKEA bags are like incredibly indispensable, do all sorts of jobs. But it's very interesting how you said there that as you kind of weigh the deeper into the corporate corporate, but into the bigger organisational kind of worlds how the opportunity to use your creativity was stifled and it kind of got squeezed. And it just reminds me a lot of lots of business owners and business leaders who kind of grow their businesses and get to the point where it almost stops being fun, like the buzz and the excitement of you know, there's everything at the start starts to kind of just kind of seep away a bit and then it's all about process. It's all about following the schedules and Gantt charts, as you say and stuff.
Kerry Tottingham
And I think I was still so I used to make beautiful PowerPoint presentations, because you know, that was me showing my creativity, but I was definitely still being creative because I was having to work out how to use limited resources to create as big of an impact as possible, or bring different groups together to work in partnership to achieve something new. But what I wasn't getting was that input of creativity into myself. So it was kind of like drawing from a rapidly emptying Well, of creativity. Yeah. So within brilliant thing, it's really important that I and the people that work in the organisation have time to be creative, to play to be inspired to see new thing. And to do that filling up.
Yiuwin Tsang
It's so important is it really powerful, I love that concept of filling up your well of creativity, not only being exposed to creativity, but the opportunity to be creative yourself is energising the opportunity to express yourself in that sort of way is so powerful, but not just for for the teams within those organisations as well. I guess one of the challenges is with people who are particularly or those which are highly creative is around channelling it into the different areas and things like that. I mean, by its very definition, creativity is about, you know, exploring and pushing out the different boundaries and doing things that perhaps haven't been done before. And I suppose segwaying quite nicely into next question about design thinking, that is one methodology, I suppose, where you can almost kind of harness that creativity and push it into the right direction. So my question is, do you use How would you describe design thinking? Because that's something you use quite a lot of within a brilliant thing. So how would you describe it to somebody who's not perhaps come across it before?
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah, well, maybe just rewinding a little bit. And I got into one of those management or those kinds of organisational positions, the title is codesign coordinator. And I didn't know what co design meant, I don't think very many people did at the time, particularly in public sector and voluntary sector. But what I did know is that it sounded an awful lot like participatory art making. So that idea that you go out and invite lots of people into the work, everybody has their part and their role and contributes and benefits from the process, and working out how to make something new together, that's going to achieve what you want to achieve or create some kind of new solution. And trying that out. That felt very, like the creative process. And so when I found this language of design thinking, it made complete sense. And it also helped me to communicate the creative process in maybe non traditionally creative environments, like councils. So design thinking it's a, as you say, it's a methodology. And it's great for moving from complex challenge to solution. And the really brilliant thing about it is it puts the people at the heart of that design work. So whoever you're trying to create this solution for, which I always encourage organisations to include their workforce and their maybe their volunteers as part of that, who, but the beneficiary the person that we're working for, they're involved right from the start, and I really liked so there's, they're a really easy one is the design Council's Double Diamond, which has got four parts and but each, no matter which kind of model, you use, the design thinking process goes through a number of different stages. So the first one is about exploring what you've got it's kind of research phase, and you go out really widely involve as many people as possible around the particular topic or kind of challenge that you're facing. And then you move into working out what matters. So there's a lot of need in the world. There's a lot of things that we could design, better stuff for better things for, but actually, we're looking for the brilliant thing. So we need to work out really early on what matters to the people that we're working with what matters to this group. And that helps give us our, you know, real kind of tangible design question to work through. And then it's the fun bit, the development bit. So making things, trying things out prototyping, doing things quickly and cheaply and badly often, kind of playing with it and working out lots of different potential solutions, and testing them and testing them in. Well, I like to test them in fun and surprising ways, different environments. We use loads of creative methods in that part as well, to work out what's going to stick what can we afford what's possible, and then coming up with that solution that is, is the brilliant thing, and then tweaking it, tweaking it, refining it, and potentially moving back through into another research base. So that's a sort of shape of design thinking and you can go you can get really technical about it, but basically it's getting expansive then refining what matters, and then getting expansive again, and then refining again and working through that process.
Yiuwin Tsang
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Yiuwin Tsang
It's a really elegant model. And we've used it before projects, when we've been working with the NHS, we were working on a initiative to help people with blood and bowel conditions. And the bit that really, I found most powerful. And it was actually just to rewind a little bit, when you said that whole kind of a co creation of art. Maybe it's because we were speaking about kids earlier on, but the whole vision of like lots of people with lots of ideas of a painter and brushes, and you just think, Oh, my goodness, this could be an absolute catastrophe. The wonderful thing I found about design thinking is when you get into that, I guess there's different nature and different models that you might use, but it needs analysis part and really understanding what would impact the most for the people? Or would it benefit the folks that we're doing this for the most? Is that incredible focus. It's like that's the bit that pulls all the, you know, the wanton pain pots and brushes into the same direction. So we're all trying to paint the same sort of picture. And that's, I think, is where the power comes in. Would you agree? It's that? Yeah, yeah, the focus was disparate minds are disparate people, everybody with the wrong kind of ideas and preconceptions about what could be done. But getting them to really focus on that problem statement on that the impact areas that you're trying to make a different thing.
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah, I completely agree. And I use praise prime to dance within. So we use design thinking to create the frame, and then we get to dance in it. And it's helpful, because sometimes people are very process led, they might be quite risk averse, or there might be a way that an organisation works. And if you can do any kind of creative process, you've got to hold that space for people to engage in it. And often, that means building trust in the process. And it stops people being scared of the process, the fact that we're always moving through it, there are clearly defined stages, as you say, those refined questions that kind of really, when people say, what you doing with that project, it gives an answer. And it helps people feel like there's purpose and movement. And I think those things are, especially in industries that are time poor, or maybe resource poor. It's about using what you've got, and working out what's the most impactful piece of work that you could do together?
Yiuwin Tsang
It fosters this kind of, um, you mentioned the word a number of times this kind of collaboration, and builds consensus as well, I guess in this in the sense that people help shape some of these questions that you're asking. I love that concept of a framework within the dance. That's really nice. One of the previous podcasts that we run, we interviewed to cow and he came over lovely analogy, similar sort of lines. But he said, thinking about putting up guardrails, so people can play but it just means that they you know, they don't hurt themselves. He's got some guardrails up. And it seems like that sort of thing. And it's quite interesting. And we'll explore culture in a second. But you mentioned there, you'll have some people that might be in these sorts of groups who might be really supportive of this type of creativity and collaboration and openness, which the process needs. And then there'll be those which might be more in the kind of detractor camp who might be perhaps a little bit cynical, perhaps a little bit sceptical? And do you find that this process kind of helps work? Because you must have come across these types of folks in public sector, particularly, but you know, in some of these more traditional web, perhaps they are very used to the old way of doing things as it were? Do you find that that this type of process helps and how does it help?
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah, I think the importance of facilitation matters here. So the confidence to hold the process is important. So whether you've got an external facilitator, or you're running a process within your organisation, that understanding and ability to hold the space, especially when you've got maybe power in the room, or you've got people who, as you say, might be really sceptical, I guess that's the first point, I want to use an example as well, which is a project that I was doing a while ago, we were doing a design thinking process. And there was somebody in the room who he was definitely quite traditional in his kind of approach to things like project management. And he was very quiet, didn't really say very much lots of sort of closed body language. And I kind of thought, Ah, he's the one. He's the one we're not going to get and participated in. It wasn't rude or disruptive or anything, but I felt like he maybe wasn't quite connecting with it. And then we got onto the prototyping stage. And this particular project was about prioritising a project. So creating a project plan basically for the next stage. And we were jumped modelling, so we're using cardboard and materials and he created this model, and he sort of worked quite independently, although still part of his group and made this model of a risk assessment. And it was the most amazing visualisation of a risk assessment I've ever seen. So it was a cardboard box with a sort of tube. I don't know what they're called spins tube and a hole in the top. And you could put all these risks in the top, and then we'd go through the tube. And then there were different levers to be the lead them through the tube or, you know, direct them in a different way. And he used this kind of concept that he'd made to describe why he felt that actually managing risks was really important in this project. Whereas before, he'd been a little bit shut down by some of the maybe more creative people or like, let's try it, we could do this type people. And actually, he was able to use those creative techniques and that creative thinking to make his point that actually his maybe slightly more traditional view had value and was important in the process. So I think that's really a nice illustration of in that particular situation, how those two kind of ways of working came together.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's a lovely example. Because it does flow both ways doesn't know Do you know whether you have a more traditional or risk averse kind of approach to life and to work versus, you know, the young free spirits or whatever that might be on the other side of things. But your opinion thing is no less valid, as you say, the skills of the facilitator and the strength of the model means that you're able to express yourself and again, contribute. And this is a key thing, isn't it? It's a contribution part. So that individual didn't feel left out unheard didn't have a voice, you know, with the less competent or perhaps more introverted, how do you see Design Thinking principles being applied, and things like company culture, for example, that's a big thing. And certainly, we spoke about a lot in our podcasts about the power of the culture within an organisation, through good times and through bad, they can often be the thing that carries a company through, I was going through the latter. So how would you see a brilliant thing working with a business? Or how could a business use design thinking when it comes to things like company culture?
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah. So if I just pick one part of the design thinking process, which is that kind of ideation bit, so we understand what problem are, we understand the challenge and the context, we've got a lot of knowledge about it by this point. And we're now starting to think about what's possible. In the Design Thinking training that I deliver, which I often delivered to councils and kind of bigger organisations, there's a part where we were just about to go into that kind of ideation bit, and you can sort of feel in the room, you know, there's usually loads of solutions. And I've usually had to stop people coming up with solutions in the previous phases. And we pause, and I'll ask, when do you have ideas at work? And there's often a bit of a silence? And or how do you have ideas that work? And people might say, Oh, well, we did an away day last year, I'll say, okay, and any other ideas, and there'll be things like, I'll sometimes when I'm in a meeting, or sometimes there's 10 minutes at the end to talk about a problem that somebody's got. And very often there's no time for creative thinking, allocated. There's certainly no time for creative thinking that people have blocked out in their own diaries. And then we'll have a conversation about what how do you have ideas be, you know, you personally, what's good for you, and people will talk about, you know, in the shower, or on the way to work, or as I'm going to sleep, or these like little pockets of time where we're not being productive? That's, that's where you can often find ideas. So then we'll talk about, well, how could we bring those two things together? How could we create a culture of creative thinkers who are able to tackle a range of complex problems and come up with some solutions or ideas for solutions? And then we'll start to talk about well, actually, we used to, before the pandemic, we used to do this thing, or we once went on this team thing. And we start to think about what how could we systematise that which often leads into a conversation about systems thinking about thinking through the kinds of processes that happen in an organisation, the values of that organisation, often the sort of systemic barriers as well. So people will say, Well, I'd love to go for a walk with my colleague, but actually, by put that in my diary, it would be really frowned upon. And then that opens up that conversation about organisational culture, and what sort of principles values, ways of being ways of working do we need to embed across our systems, processes, values, interactions, behaviours, and that's a whole other training session, or a whole other development they that you can see just with that ideation task, I guess that task to Ida it needs to sit within the context of a culture that supports creativity or supports people being together or supports reflection. And I think there's lots of different parts of the design thinking process that needs something else from the environment or from the culture. And it's important to work through with an organisation what that looks and feels like because otherwise you may do this brilliant process. And you may come up with this amazing solution that's viable, you can afford it, you've got time to do it makes best use your resources. But then if it's not something, if it doesn't have the towel ground in which to grow, then it will just fail.
Yiuwin Tsang
So guess what I'm taking from that carry is it if you were to undergo this type of exercise was kind of process with your teams is to keep an open mind as well, just in terms of there's value in going through the process itself, as well as the outputs from the process at the other end. And it's almost as he says, Those conversations to come out to be drawn out. That's a lovely, by the way, concept. What do you think? Where are you most creative? As you were speaking, I just thought not gonna do the thing when I started going off on my own thought?
Kerry Tottingham
Well tell us, where are you most creative.
Speaker 1
Well, this is the thing it did make me think I think it is in those you summed it up really nicely, it's in those times of when you're not being productive, productive in the sense, you're not like, you know, billable hours, or, you know, doing this, we call it delivery work. And it's the green boxes in my calendar, where it's like, basically, my time has been spent on getting stuff done. It's hard to be creative in those spaces. Whereas when you've got a gap, you're eating a sandwich, or you're going for a run and stuff like this. And it's a really interesting question to ask yourself, and then I guess want to push back over to your teams, When are your most creative? And then the challenge, then, as you say, is how do you create a environment where there are these pockets of spaces, pockets of time, where people can kind of, you know, move their thinking out of delivery, delivery delivery, I heard this phrase a years ago, and it's lovely, you know, if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And it's like, that's all you're doing is Dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, then everything looks like a nail, you know, whereas we need the chance in the space to kind of move outside. And I guess this is like, getting a little bit meta here. But just by going through this process of design thinking in the context of company culture, if it's done properly, it will make people ask those questions, it will make it on themselves and other teams that they've got other people they work with, and the environment within which they work. There are lots of organisations I come across or worked in, where if you blocked out, you know, an hour a day with thinking time, people will go nuts, right, you know, they will like what you're doing, I'm swamped. And this is again, opens up the system meeting time.
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah. So what are some time to read, absorb everything by osmosis.
Yiuwin Tsang
It's, it's crazy, because the people that frown upon it, and this is the thing that people who would frown upon are probably the ones that are really strong out there absolutely slammed. And they're like what humans gone off to read for an hour whilst I'm like, it's like 110 Different things go get done. And again, it looks at that, I guess, asking the question shines a light on these systemic challenges that might be within an organisation that otherwise just on spoken about? Yeah. And I imagine that
Kerry Tottingham
You mentioned your delivery time is in greenboxes. And it's on your calendar, and everybody knows that. And so you've got a system, you've got a process that works, because delivery is valued in your organisation. And going through the design thinking process offers opportunities to reflect on what made that work, why didn't that work, and often people will come up with their own, you know, we need time to be together, we need time to be creative. So it makes it visible, it makes that stuff, I don't know that there's an expectation that you should just be it. It makes it more visible, and the value of it more visible. So then you can have the conversation, well, maybe we should just try it for a week. Maybe we could prototype putting thinking time in our diary, we've learned this new word prototyping, maybe we could try it, you know, we can evaluate it, we can test it, we can put all that rigour. It's not about not having rigour. And then we can reap the benefits as well.
Yiuwin Tsang
100%, I think is really kind of shining a light on my brain is that it does, again, it gives a voice to that individual who might have said you and what you're doing spending an hour on reading. Sunday, I'd love to have some reading. So then it does kind of, you know, make us question that what can we do? What can we do as a team to alleviate some of that delivery work of that individual so that they get that time because we all agreed it's important, as well, you know, a whole kind of creative piece. It's a wonderful thing, scribbling all this down and carry that fan implement this, and I did, but how else then, with design thinking, Could you use it in context, like structuring a growing business, I guess in terms of people and thinking about their own kind of drive their own kind of motivation as well.
Kerry Tottingham
Maybe if I tell you about a real life project that was a collaborative project, so this is more about different organisations coming together to create something new. But if you're thinking about a growing business, this is about bringing the different elements of that business together to build create that new stage or that new phase during the pandemic I developed in my organisation that I work for. It was an infrastructure organisation and we supported charities and community groups, and there was a need to deliver food to people. And there were a number of organisations food banks who have been doing that for years. There were a number of organisations who wanted to use their resources to move into this new area. And there wasn't any sort of infrastructure around those different organisations, everyone was quite independent. And so what we did is we brought everybody together online, obviously, and sort of started to talk about what people need and want, and we thought it was going to be funding, and it was actually storage. So storage and redistribution were elements of this new need that weren't available. And we use the design thinking process. And then we end developed something called a community warehouse, which supported over 60, food banks and food organisations, it meant that we were able to receive large donations, and then divvy it up to smaller groups. It also meant that organisations could if they had access pasture, or whatever, they could share it with other organisations, there was a central drop off point for other resources, like masks, you know, other donations of products and like health care products and things, so that we could distribute it quickly out to the voluntary sector. And it was that design thinking process that enabled all those different organisations with their different drivers and motivations and structures and sizes and funding to come together to create something new. So that's an example of lots of different organisations coming together to create quite a big new project. But on the other side of things, when I was starting brilliant thing, just, you know, upstairs in my loft, I was using a design thinking process as well. So I was thinking about Remember, I talked about being an artist and doing that work in the NHS and being able to write a funding bid? And so starting from that point of view of like, what have I got, what are the resources that are available? Who do I know? What's my network? Like? What can I access or leverage into this? It's the start of that design thinking process where you're discovering what's available? And then moving into Okay, well, how do I want to? What do I want my days to look like? Who the people that I wouldn't be working with, you know, asking those kinds of questions. And eventually, we've ended up with the brilliant thing. And I use this process quite a lot when I'm coaching clients as well. So I also do coaching for the charity workers, public sector teams, purpose led business owners. And we quite often adopt that kind of design thinking frame to structure our sessions, particularly if people are trying to create some kind of new project or service or redefine what they're offering or grow a team. So yeah, I just find it a really adaptable process in lots of different situations,
Yiuwin Tsang
certainly is certainly as I just mentioned, right at the front, it's a really elegant framework to help you take you through those kinds of stages, I suppose, I suppose in the context of a growing business in terms of people, how involved would you get the people in the team in that kind of team involved? Can you mention that kind of coaching, which I assume is kind of one to one on an individual level? But would you encourage those business leaders to involve their teams in those stages of the process? Because I guess just thinking about each stage, that resources section that almost like kind of like a valuation of what you have now, that's an opportunity again, for people to say, you know, I'm over here doing a concert. I'm actually really love doing design work? Oh, you know, I guess it gives a bit of that space for people to contribute.
Kerry Tottingham
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I really liked doing kind of shortish structure processes and organisations, which you might have heard of sprints, or that kind of approach where everybody's involved in a kind of shared projects. And I think if you're going to take that approach, it's important to find a topic or something that impacts everyone to focus your work on some kind of opportunity, some kind of challenge that affects many people. And then people have a stake in it. So you want to create that environment where it matters to people people think it's important, or it's potentially important with the solution that they might come up with. But you can also structure a whole organisation through design thinking. So you can also think about, okay, if we're going to organise our work this month, and we're going to organise our work to, to kind of point towards discovery. What does that mean about our team meetings? How will we be structuring our team meetings? What does that mean around how we organise our calendars? What does that mean around new work that we try and bid for? Whatever your core activities of your organisation? What if for a month, you're kind of Northstar was discovering or what if or a month, your Northstar was defining what matters and you can make that process as long or short as you want. But the important bit is to capture the reflections along the way. It's really if you're doing a short process, and everyone's involved and you're doing maybe a week long sprint, everyone's kind of in it and you're capturing along the way in your understanding what's happening. Whereas if it's a longer process, you really want to be able to share that learning and keep reminding people that actually, at the moment, we're focusing on this, I also think it's really useful the training of project managers, team leaders, line managers to understand some of these processes and principles and, and activities and tools as well, because there's lots of stages of project management that need ideation, for example, or need prototyping. So you don't always have to follow that kind of prescribed Design Thinking structure. I think, once you've kind of got those tools under your belt, you've got them to pull out in those different moments
Yiuwin Tsang
is a great analogy. And I think also that level of involvement as well, there's a phrase again, that the cover up today on the defender came across a years ago, which was people support best what they have create, and it gets that buy in almost as a side product. But if your teams are involved in that evaluation stage of the ideation stage of the solution stage, or the part of that creative process, they're all contributing towards that solution. So the more supportive of it, I guess, as an organisation as a whole.
Kerry Tottingham
And there's a bit of learning from voluntary charity, community sector, but I think is useful in other sectors, which is around this process called CO production. So CO production is about creating services with the people that are going to benefit from them. So for example, if somebody's experienced multiple disadvantage, maybe poverty, homelessness, drug or alcohol misuse, then they are the people who are going to understand what will work in a service to prevent that kind of behaviour change something. So there's a principle within CO production that the closer the US at the challenge, the closer you are to the solution. And I think that principle can be applied. Well, little sidenote design thinking is really useful for CO production projects. If anybody's doing anything to do with CO production, have a look at design thinking, because CO production can get quite messy and can get quite, it's hard to do. And it takes a long time and design thinking can help guide it. But I think that message of if you're close to the challenge, you're also close and solution is something that more corporate organisations might want to think about when they're, for example, implementing a new software system. If the people who are going to use that software system, have not been involved in the procurement of that software system, or maybe the training and how that trainings devise, then it's going to be a lot harder, cost more money take longer to implement that new system, because you're not happy you're starting from no buy in. Whereas if you do some focused work with people using the system every day, to understand what matters, then what the challenges are, then you're much more likely to get a product at the end that you've already got that buy in with. So I guess that's a more practical example of using this process.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and a big thank you to Kerry from A Brilliant Thing. Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Businesses a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk