Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy, and soulfully grown. Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business team. And this week, I was joined by Nila Matthews, author and founder of Awakening Flow and an expert in human unconscious processing. For the last 20 years, she's worked for companies like Yahoo, and Sky as a digital behavioural product expert, and worked on award winning products. Nila specialises in unconscious processes, behavioural sciences, neuroscience, intuitive intelligence, and energy to understand the gap between what we say and want, but do and get. Nila, thank you very much for joining us today. I've been looking forward to this chat quite a lot. And let's kick straight off with what we spoke about before about unlocking your optimal self, I think lots of the listeners and certainly me myself you face each day and you think, how can I get the very best out of myself in order to kind of produce my best work. And sometimes that kind of puts a bit of pressure on yourself as well, which can be kind of counterintuitive. So when we spoke, we came across the term or we certainly kind of amused ourselves with the term of being a 'sceptical hippie', which is clearly how I self identify, because I really want to believe in all of the lovely kind of fluffy things when it comes to looking after yourself. And I very much think that's the hippie side of me coming out. But there's also this sceptical side of me that wants the data that wants the science and the facts. So when we talk about being optimal self for you, what does that mean? You know, what's the upside? How do we come about it?
Nila Matthews
Yeah, thank you for inviting me here. Optimal. So it's a really big word. And, you know, I'm gonna wrap it up with something that it's a term that has followed me all my life, even before I knew that the science behind it. 'Flow'. So flow is our optimal state of being and consciousness. What that actually means is that we're not just connected with ourselves. And when we feel energised, we feel like we're in the water, they flow. But flow also can be like, you could be in a flow, but passively. So you're in that design state, you're just going with the flow, because actually, you're either too scared to say what you feel, or you're just the good girl, good boys going along, because you want to rock the boat. That's not the flow I'm talking about. So it's quite an act of flow, being in the being that meeting that fear. And I'm going to talk about not just the concept, because we can often talk about face fear and do it anyway. No, you've got to face the fear if you know how to put yourself into an optimal flow position. And so what I'm really talking about is the optimal within it's called intersection is all about your nervous system. So recently, there's been a lot of talk, forgive me if you haven't heard it, but it's called vagus nerve. Your vagus nerve is your emotional resilience nerve. And I'm going to talk to that in a moment. And what that comprises, because when we have that, in terms, that sense of safety, and there's three parts to this, our brain then is allowed to work in the right gear, it's allowed to push itself into Am I being analytical today? Do I need to be creative, to be need to be in connection, and each one of those states and even when you're, you know, you're looking for that, aha, there's a state that we need to be in in terms of brainwave states, it's called gamma, need to cross into a certain Alpha bridge, and there's ways that we can do it. So that whole view would sit at your desk, sweat it out until you've got the answer isn't gonna work. This is all about neurophysiology. And this is what I've been working on, really, because I had to it's part of my journey. Because I'm a creative, I needed to understand how I worked in order to put myself back together, but also to do my work more effectively. But we do live in a culture, which has had this superhero and the superhero must hit him must finish this. And that's what we think is optimal. And it's so as at optimal, you know, taking time to put yourself into a state to answer that problem might look like going for a run, it might look like give energy. So energy will give you but we started this conversation you're in and you said I'm feeling a bit low energy. And what I wanted to say was first thing you want to do is change your energy signature, and maybe do a shake, but you're allowing that dense energy to fall down. So we're an optimal state, for me is higher energy. But actually at the heart of all this has been in connection, not just with yourself, but with others. I'm going to pause there for a moment and then I'm going to talk about actually that autonomic nervous system state because there's a hierarchy and that first hierarchy is, am I it's not just on mice. A fit, am I also in connection does the world feel welcoming. And that's to do with your vagus nerve, and then it goes down into sort of playing excites, and when that's not aligned, you're in combat, you're fighting or fleeing and escaping and when that's not, and then the next layer down is rest and digest when it's fully working optimal. And when it's not your freeze, you're in collapse, you're in the world feels so dangerous. And there are three states. And that's nothing to do with a happy hippie. That's everything to do with your nervous system. And that's the first thing that needs to be aligned. Am I safe? From the brains perspective? I'm going to talk about the vagus nerve there from your brain, then it goes, am I safe? Am I supported? And then it goes to, can I create? What can I learn? How can I create something in the world.
Yiuwin Tsang
So that says the hierarchy and I guess having an awareness of what that hierarchy is you can identify where you are. And I guess that's one of the first steps that you need to do in order to kind of move yourself from one state to another is recognising the state that you are in. I think when we spoke before, we talked about flow. And what immediately came to mind when you described it was I used to when I was invited to do a bit of mountain biking. And a lot of the bikers used to talk about being in the flow when they're going down these quite scary kind of tracks. And the bike is just kind of, you know, the bikers. Yeah, I know, it sounds really cheesy, and it does. But you end up in this state where you can go faster than you've ever gone before. And all the bumps in the ruts in the branches and everything are still there just as they are for everybody else. But you're able to navigate over them and through them and under them. And you almost go into the state of kind of calmness and other city moving faster than you ever have done before. But perhaps it's your brain is more aware of this kind of heightened perception where it almost feels like it's slow down your movement in transition from these places. And the mountain bikers that was going out with the when they said when that happens is when you're in the flow, as he says, when everything is connected, you have this kind of sense of confidence almost that you can move that you're right. And because you feel like you're right, and you can move, you go even faster, and you can, you know, handle the bumps and the jumps and everything else even better than you had before, would you say is that kind of it because I'm wondering, from a listeners perspective than maybe the mountain bike. But I imagine there are similar sort of states when you are snowboarding or skiing, or I guess in that kind of work context where we've all been there before, I must say that I tend to find that I'm more perceptive to it when I'm working in amongst a team. And I think this is what you're talking about in terms of connections with the rest of your team and the people that you kind of work with in this kind of energy that you give off. And perhaps you take from other people as well. But you almost kind of in this collective flow state where you feel like you are unbeatable, you know, you've got an objective, you've got a task, you've got a project, you're absolutely smashing in everybody is buzzing, and everybody's going for it. And there's this is an amazing state to be in. And I guess, as I said, from a listeners perspective, that for me, when you talk about flow, and you get to that point, it's that kind of sensation that you get where you just feel elevated.
Nila Matthews
That's exactly and actually you've identified the two different states that collective flow. And what you're actually talking about is I always refer to its creative flow and how we get there in the team environment. And then individually became studied by a psychologist called me highly churchmen highly ancient wisdom have known about it for years, there was so much fMRI studies around it and that surface high that mountain bikers high and I'm sure if everyone just took a moment is something that you we all do. That means that you've reached that flow, there's you've befriended fear, I'm going to come back to that term, but befriended fear, everything just goes away. It's the same brainwave states that meditators go into. So we are opening up that part of our brain, which just allows every autonomic process just to happen, you know what to do your procedural memory has done this before you allowing it to just become the wave become the bike, because you have that almost trust within yourself as well. And, and what we know also from studies is from a strategic problem solving perspective, you can solve problems 500 times more by putting yourself in that state. So when we don't, when we're in stress, your brain was like stuck in second gear, it's called high beta in terms of a brainwave state. But from there, all you're seeing is like you're present in your mind, you're stuck in second gear. And whatever you do, you can't seem to get out of that that carrot and stick approach that we use on ourselves or as managers, leaders we use on our staff. And they're not going to be creative and creativity and Flow are related in quite a lot of terms. So I'm jumping a little bit but the writing I've been doing is about looking at the creative process, that preparation, incubation, illumination and verification. And so that incubation illumination state is almost like that flow state. And what's intrinsic to both of them is when we cut everything away in ask you to do all of the eight states, we're asking you to be in your heart and find pensive joy, and gratitude. And we can train ourselves to do that. But we all get stuck in that real time moment of God, I got to do this, everything's overwhelming. What do I do that stress and there are tools that we can use to re anchor you back in that moment. breathwork things that we can use visualisation, again, a lot of the brain scanning studies that I've seen, looked at done myself, have looked at those unconscious Prime's that just allow your brain to just go into the right state. And we're using that nervous system. But let me just say, it's starts with our nervous system, which is, I think it's 34 miles long. It's the store of all our stress. And we're not talking about just this last week, I'm talking about a lifetime long of stress. And so to get ourselves in the flow, often you've got to meet that fear, you've got to recognise the stress and change your energy shifting signature, we've got to recognise that kid in the back poor fear caused stress needs to be released, there are tools,
Yiuwin Tsang
I just want to take a quick minute to say thanks to our trusted partners, Krystal hosting. Krystal is a B Corp, powered by 100% renewable energy, and has a goal of planting 1 billion trees by 2030. Krystal services are super fast and super reliable, and they're genuinely really nice people. We're super picky over who we work with as partners, at Beautiful Business, and we're delighted to count Krystal as one of them. Back to the podcast...
Yiuwin Tsang
I guess the real challenges is that you mentioned earlier, you know, we're almost like pre conditioned to there's like a much wisdom isn't there in terms of particularly in the corporate and in the work world where it's almost frowned upon to admit to these things, I think it's changing, it's fair to say that it is changing, there's much more kind of recognition of mental well being and kind of looking after yourself in that sort of way. There's almost like an internal dialogue, certainly for myself, just being very personally where you just think she's gonna pull your socks off, he's gonna get on with it. You're gonna keep on keepin on. And I suppose it's that preconditioning of you just got to work through it. You've just got to, you know, push yourself through and keep going. And I guess what you're saying is, is that we will be forever stuck in this state of unable to kind of escape from it or elevate ourselves from it, if we don't recognise that we have got these kinds of pressures that there is, you know, stress or there isn't anxiety or whatever it might be, I guess it is about recognising it. First of all, it's about even the word admitting to it feels like it's a negative connotation, but it is that acknowledgement. I think it's acknowledgement that's probably the better word for us to use in this instance, that these things do affect us. And going back to the science of it, this isn't just a worry, or a thought that's kind of going through your head it manifests physiologically in our bodies in our nervous system in the cells of our bodies themselves.
Nila Matthews
Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I'm so passionate about this. Now, I could throw me scientists that you Bruce Lipton, Dr. Joe Dispenza, looked at all the placebo effects. But the reality is back in 2015, I want to say, I'd ignored all of this, I was innovative burnout, and burnout happens in three phases. You get cynical, you feel fatigue, you get depressed. Now I was on my sixth major operation, until I finally admitted that I've been ignoring all of we think of ourselves as the vessel that we need to get from A to X. So you're going north, whatever that project is, whatever life is, you want your life and legacy, that's the business. If I was the vessel, I had so much unconscious baggage on board, that it was energetically dragging me down. And I was just ignoring it. I had two significant losses. I had unconscious trauma. Now when I look back, and I work with one to one clients now and I do energy and intuitive methods to get to the bottom of that subconscious blockage that upper level. And what happened to me was I had six major operations. And I was done. And when I say done, I was in such a dark place that I wasn't answering phone calls, I was not connecting, I just just you know, done in the darkest way. I had a young daughter at the time as well. And I remember, this is reported, but I remember I got a phone call from my friend who shouted at me on my voicemail basically saying pick the phone up, you're not alone. Get what you do. Get creative. What the hell are you doing? And it was so shocking. I just started laughing now. Actually, what that allowed me to do was lighten up. It made me not take myself seriously now I've been looking at the brain regions that we go into make a breakthrough and that laughter that lightning of what happened was actually something to help me get a little bit of a breakthrough to get from that high beta of stress into a brainwave state and I went oh, actually, I think I can solve this. I think I can get the answer. I think I can help more than anyone else. And that really shifted my trajectory of where it was but when I look back at where I got ill in my stomach I talked about I freezer lot, I was listening to Mila comb if the actress recently and she said she went for an audition with Beverly Hills 901 or one or whatever it was called. And Steven Priestley was in the room and she froze. She's never frozen. And then she had this pattern of freezing. And actually, how do I stop myself from doing that, and that's what I would do, then you would collapse see the world is unwelcoming you would be done, or I would be in combat, oh, my God, you know, that kind of wasn't a connection. But when I look at how I now address my nervous system, in that first instance, to go, Oh, I'm getting this, I need to do this. And so I can change and talk to my nervous system, we put it at that ease. That's why we're so passionate to go looking for answers. And initially, I did start very much on the psychology route, the brain scanning studies, all of the traditional, I'm a counsellor, mental health tutor. None of it was working properly, because I needed to understand the Cymatics neuroception is how our nervous system is taking in those messages and turning it into a message for our body. interoception is when I became aware of it when we become aware of what's going on, and we address it. So again, back to the happy hippie. It's it is because I'm also using tools and methods that our ancient wisdom have known for years. Pranayama pranayama is your lifeforce breath as the first line of defence, you know, and it's that in Europe for years, where we're using this two part, two sides, inhale, out pail, it's now called in the science world as the physiological side, it's the one tool that we can use in real time to bring ourselves back into a state of balance. So I offer that as a tool.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's interesting to just take a minute to explain to me, it's quite interesting, because I'm thinking that there's a couple of things here that's going on when we do this kind of so what's the scientific name of it the two stage sigh.
Nila Matthews
Yeah. And actually, Andrew Huberman talks about it a lot. But we've been using, I heard him talk about it recently. But we've been using that for years. And it's something that I'm Steven Porges is the founder of polyvagal theory and the nervous system and how it works. So that physiological side, and now's your other villi, that can't pronounce the word, it's like the little capillaries that in your air sacs in your chest, they expand up. And they're the size of like two tennis courts. And when you breathe in, extended out, it's allowing your oxygen into your system. And it's allowing you to settle so that our brain, our heart, and your digestive system are all connected. And what that allows you to do is open enough just to give you enough air, and also reset some of those elements. So it's called the sympathetic part, which is the hyper alertness or the anger part, the flights and the flee part. And then we go down to the freeze. And I'm going to talk about foreign which is slightly different. But in that part where I'm stomach where we're allowing that diaphragm to actually rise, Phillip air, and then our ventral system, which goes from our heart, to our eyes, and our face, our connection to actually ease because what I would normally say is you breathe out longer than you breathe in. So you take a big cleansing breath in, for for an hour for six, again, that's calming. But if you're in freeze that calming doesn't always work, because you need more oxygen. But if you're in that attack mode, definitely four in six out, and then we vary it. I do a lot of workshops around what kind of nervous system response do you have? What is your normal default? And then how would you view the world? And how do you view you? And how do we get out of each states, and we've got the tools. For me, that's kind of 101 self care.
Yiuwin Tsang
It's really interesting, because even forensics out, or that kind of split into an article site, the physiological so it's super interesting to hear what physiologically happens to your body, when you kind of do that, and how it kind of moves through your nervous system and how it's all kind of interconnected. There's a story about French guy that I know who I went to see years and years and years ago, and we're talking about the nervous system, and he said, Oh, that's on your intestinal meridian. Are you having stomach problems at the minute and I was I basically couldn't handle the cheese, but it blew my mind how connected the body is and other nervous this kind of answer. But my point I was trying to make is that just through the process of kind of controlling your breathing and putting yourself through that, that's almost like a mental reset in itself. Right? And that you thinking about, Okay, I'm not in the right kind of mind state at the minute I'm feeling a little stressed out, I'm feeling anxious, whatever it might be. I'm gonna do some breathing exercises, do the forensics out or the sight, that's almost a conscious action in itself to try and change your state. Is that right? So it's almost like as I say, it's that first kind of conscious step to make.
Nila Matthews
And actually I think what if you notice people I saw I noticed people a lot this is what what you probably noticed that people put their hand on their head, or they put their hand on their stomach or put their hand that's their unconscious actually saying there's something wrong, because often your system is the first thing that's getting those signs and signals, the conscious mind is the last to catch up. And this is really clear when I did my brain scanning studies, what I do, and I didn't even realise I do it now is I put my hand on my heart. It's a behavioural cue. You know, like when sometimes when you see an image, and you don't know why you act, but you act, it's that Pavlov's dog effect. So I've got my dog, I don't know if you can see behind, I've got like a crystal ball thing, and I bang it. And then I give my dog a biscuit. And he knows he's gonna get a tree. I was like, let's just try it. It works or he sits. But the thing is, you know, you just need to notice how you're feeling. Are you feeling tight in your stomach? Where do you hold that stress? Do you get a rash. So I was in a job for ages. And I knew it was not right. The values didn't align, it was just awful. It was toxic management style, because of the pressures they were under, I'm not going to say they were, it was an accumulation. And I had the worst eczema or on my face, I get my hair, I get hair loss, my stomach issues get I my body talks to me the body holds a score is a great book, and definitely true. And this is why had those operations because I ignored the signs. And when you get sick, it's almost like Well, we've told you, we've told you we've told you, right suffer this, now you've got your attention. And it's like that child in the back of the car, they're not going to shut up until you give them attention. What is it you want? Okay, I hear you. Now let's, and it's the same notice your physiological science. So the workshop that we actually do helps you identify what they are. And then we address that, I put my hand on my heart because there's some work beautiful work done, again, by the Heart Math Institute about how important that heart centre is to align it to help us reach flow. Because when we connect to our heart, and we are allowing that gratitude and that freedom of those feelings of joy, appreciation, freedom, to overcome the fear. So we can sit in that for two minutes. And I often do when I feel that I'm just bringing images of joy, appreciation, letting that expand. It's a three minute we call it the micro method in an institute that I'm with my uncle, the Institute of intuitive intelligence, but it's also scientifically proven by the HeartMath Institute, which also show that your heart is pre cognitive, if you allow it to connect first. And then you allow that flow to happen with your brain, which blew my mind because I was like, where the subconscious knows before your logical brain does. I saw that clearly. And then I looked at their data and was like, holy moly, this is exciting. And it's how do we bring that into our everyday life to make sure with heart centred leaders that we are in connection that you said at the start, you know, that group energy? How can I make sure my energy is in trained to lift people up because we'll all energy, and when we're at that higher vibing energy where we're all feeding off of each other, like in a great football match? It's great. But when that energy turns, and it's negative, it's energy again, but it's so dense, it's so heavy, and it's Deconstructive. It's not constructive. So, again, I do a lot of talks and masterclasses on how do we train our energy? Because that's how we guide other people's consciousness. That's how we get out of our own funk. I want to say fears, heaviness. Yeah, give energy energy will give it back and make sure it's positive.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's just made me think I think I'm quite self conscious now. But I do know, when do I, I'm one for putting my hand on my head a lot. It's in different instance. Because sometimes when I'm trying to make my brain work a bit harder, and I put my hands to might kind of temporal they're not necessarily a negative thing, but it's almost like Right, okay, here we go.
Nila Matthews
And that movement that you just did, I've got my thumb up the side of my head, I've got my hands there, and you stretch that along there, you're allowing blood to go to that prefrontal cortex done exactly what you need to do unconsciously. Yeah, sometimes if I find myself overwhelmed, I do a figure of eight around my eyes until I yawn. So I'm going to ask you to do that now. And let's just see if you do you're just while I'm talking, because that's actually bringing your energy back to you.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's interesting. I haven't gone yet but that's probably because I'm making myself not you're doing the Neela was just put my hand on my chest just then about that kind of harping and I think back when I'm hearing stories and it's normally when it's like you know when you hear like really lovely stories, you know, really nice things that have happened or really inspiring things. You write my kind of hunched ends up here and I almost thought was kind of like is it just me trying to kind of express sincerity and I'm kind of listening at my right and thinking that in sign language when you kind of read that that's like thank you or gratitude when you
Nila Matthews
but you do put your hand on your heart when You want to say, you know, I think it's I love you, but you do.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, yeah. So that, again is so kind of interesting, as you know, as you say, that kind of physiological kind of manifestation of these kinds of energy in these states.
Nila Matthews
And I wanted to just actually mention is a talk or tapping, which I use a lot with my clients I use for myself daily, they use it for, especially people that have come out the army and got PTSD. And that's known, and it's got lots of studies around it about your actual acupuncture to your nervous system. And there are specific, you know, you were talking about the rash. And what he said was, you are tapping on specific points, and your face, because the ventral vagal, which go from your heart, up to your face up to your eyes, that's the connection part, we don't necessarily need a hug, or to be seen by other people. But if you put your hand on your face, if you're feeling a bit lonely, that is just as good for your nervous system. But the tapping part is actually also activating parts in your face to actually allow you to do that. And that thing about fear, I will meet my fear and feeling a bit rubbish today, feeling tired, and feeling really rubbish. And then you go through because you're naming what you're fearing. And then you kind of got to halfway through, I would go, what if, but what I haven't done is been stuck in that energy, I've given voice to it, I've allowed myself to see it, and then we change the energy around it. So I would spend about an hour doing this with some clients. But the tapping, even if you didn't have any words that didn't know what to do, tapping at the side of your hand, to top of your eyebrows, just allows you to start shifting some of that dense energy, a simple simple tip tunes, we are addressing the nervous system. And these sort of things, you know, if you when I went back to Skype recently, and I was working, they got a meditation room, when I was stuck, they were like, where's Neela and she didn't the meditation room. And then I come back and have a great, you know, I had a breakthrough, I'd go to the gym, where I shake my husband laughing, oh, my gosh, she's meditating again. And then I have a breakthrough. So I'm not going to I'm gonna be really unapologetic about the fact that I'm, I'm counterculture. And people don't understand that I'm actually working. But I'm allowing my nervous system and my subconscious to come up with the answers, I'm not going to just stick at my desk and get frustrated.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, again, it's that you know, the precondition that we have in the workplace. And again, I'm really positive that it's changing, perhaps not as fast. But to your point, if you are at your optimal self, you can be as productive if not more productive, but still kind of protect yourself and give yourself that the kind of longevity to do this for weeks or months and carried on whereas you know, somebody who's not conscious of the states that they're in and the energies that they are working within. And if it's that kind of dense energy, as you say, or if it's a disruptive kind of energy in terms of what you're giving off, then perhaps that you know, they may well be as productive, but it's not sustainable. And it's a painful productivity almost.
Nila Matthews
Yeah, absolutely. It's all about human sustainable living, performance, creativity, I'm really glad you mentioned that. Because in the book, and I've talked about this, again, there's a myth of the work life balance, because it needs to be sustainable. And that's the point about meeting and releasing those fears. And you know, it's not being masculine to hold on to it. One of my recent clients actually spent years and years and years and years and years of stuff that had happened, because life happens and your nervous systems accumulating it, it's like, when you're younger, and you've got stress response, it might be the size of a mouse. And we have homeostasis, we need to balance it out. So our body finds a way to get homeostasis. But as we get older, and we're not releasing are seeing that imagine that stress response from a mouse to a dog to a giraffe to an elephant. Now you need a huge response. And this is where it hits your nervous system. And reality call is one of the I've just finished a spiritual directorship course, which was 18 months is a business exposure direct ship course. And I'm winning with her for three years. She was a leadership expert working with a top CEOs around the world, she had a heart attack of 38. She's an ex dancer, she was fit. And she thought she looked after herself. Not as that and or but and both. But she was not addressing her stress. So she had that heart attack, women's heart attack for different she sat in that meeting and finished it. And then when you respond, you know, men that I've seen a price tag is horrible, but men tend to have more of that dramatic er kind of moment. But women can be more subtle. So again, being aware of what is your subtle signs, what is your body going to tell you if you haven't dealt with that stress? And it could be work stress or live stress and seriously your nervous system doesn't care. It's a stressor, and it's also in anticipation. Did you go into a meeting thinking it was gonna go bad when you set the energy wrong already, but to you are nervous systems already? Ah, not very. So remember, the hierarchy is, Am I safe? Am I supported? What can I learn and create? And as a manager? Are you putting your staff or as an entrepreneur in your team? Is your staff feeling safe? Do they feel supported? You know, then what can they learn and create together? So, understanding that for yourself, being the demonstration of that means that the energy you ripple around you is going to be at that higher vibration and not lower. So you go into your brainstorming meeting and you're all vibing against each other, and that's brilliant. But if we're not conscious of that, then it's all. So if nothing else, remember, be conscious of your energy. What does that energy signature say to you? And what does it say to everyone else because everyone else will feel it even if you don't want to air it.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode of the Beautiful Business podcast. I really hope you enjoyed listening to it. And a big thank you to Nila Matthews for sharing her advice her stories and experience. Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk