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Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy and soulfully grown.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business podcast. My name is Yiuwin Tsang of the Beautiful Business team. And this week, we are joined by Megan Taylor. Megan's work is in helping people to notice, think and act differently. She's the Managing Director at Rise Beyond, a collaboration consultancy working to enable better collaboration to address the complex challenges we all face in our organisations and beyond rise work alongside organisations from various sectors as well as supporting private and social sector leaders through their programmes and initiatives. And Megan actually started her career as a professional dancer, choreographing and performing around the world and establishing a learning community for dancers to support their professional and personal development. Aside from her work at Rise, she is a founder of Move the World, a skills and education charity based in Ghana, and an angel investor, and people advisor to startups in technology, consumer products and the arts. She has a master's in people and organisational development, and she's a certified coach. Let's talk, Megan, about the transition to leadership. So give us a bit of background to your journey and Rise Beyond. What's it been like? Where did you start? What have you done? Where are you now?
Megan Taylor
Yeah. So when I tell people this there was like, how on earth did you get here, because my first career I started my career as a professional dancer. So ballet contemporary, I left a very academic school to go study ballet that took me off to kind of New York to London as a freelance contemporary dancer. And I did that for five, six years and loved it and also was faced with the challenges that that industry and you know, the different pressures and trials and tribulations that can come from that world. And some of the things that I was really drawn to or attracted to in the dance industry are actually the things that I find myself still doing today. So for me, there's loads of kinds of threads. But of course, from a story point of view, it can sound a bit completely different worlds that I'm in. So when I was in the dance industry, I got really interested in the concept of community and learning communities. And really felt like the dance industry, which was fairly disconnected kind of predominantly young women that were trying to struggle and kind of succeed and hard world didn't have many spaces to come together and actually share their experiences feel supported, and connected and where there wasn't competition, which was often the environment that you were in. So I trained as a coach, when I was a dancer and kind of used my I think what was quite natural facilitation skills to bring people together and host conversations and suggest that we kind of put programmes together for professional and personal development to create a more supportive or inclusive environment for dancers. And that was kind of my laboratory really, for testing all of the things that I'm now doing in a different world today. So I loved it and actually found myself doing more and more of that work than the actual dancing. And in parallel, my dad had finished his business career and was really interested in taking his expertise in learning and starting a consultancy, which was called Rise Beyond. And so of course, for a couple of years, I suspected that he was watching what I was doing, and seeing some similarities. And one day we want to train together, he said, you know, come and shadow, you know, some of the work that I'm doing with our clients, you'll see that there's some similarities. And of course, I was like, it's completely different. I'm never gonna end up working with him. But sure, let me go and have a look. Anyway, eight years later, here I am today, it was a slow transition to begin with. And then actually, I just really loved that my skill set was clearly applicable to different sectors and was encouraged to kind of step out and explore it.
Yiuwin Tsang
That is the ideal story, I guess, in terms of how skills are the things which are transferable from one industry, one community, that's very different to the community that you've transitioned over and into. So when you start from that point, when you thought actually, yeah, I can see it. What was that? Like? I mean, were you kind of holding on to that?
Speaker 2
I wish it was like a super clear moment of privacy. It wasn't it was a kind of year battle a couple of years battle with myself, I do think 100% I had a major identity crisis for quite a while because I had been Megan the dancer since I was four years old, right? Every family party and every social situation, I was Megan the dancer. So when I started like 25-26 to be stepping into these other kinds of environments, a in the environment, I didn't know how to introduce myself, because how will they take me seriously? I thought if I say that I'm a dancer. You know, why would these people on these exec teams like pay me any attention? Already, I know 25-26 year old woman, which is the you know, already with a difference and then to kind of come from a probably more alternative background added to that difference. So I hit it It actually, you know quite well, I tried to kind of keep it to a side or kind of sort of separate to and, you know, it was really desperately trying to kind of get expertise and capability that I'd be taken seriously in this kind of new, more corporate world. And then I went to study my master's programme. And actually, just that process of studying, which is a self managed Learning Programme, was just a real opportunity for me to kind of integrate all those different parts of myself. And it felt like quite a healing moment if I don't use that word. But I was like, God, that's my power, my power is in my difference. My power is in the fact that I am a young woman stepping into these spaces and helping people to have different types of conversations, and not a typical 56 year old white man going into a boardroom. And so I actually started to get quite a lot of confidence from perhaps the skills that I had learned in the dance industry and kind of how I could bring them into this work. And, yeah, that was super important, like integrating of those different worlds. But it was not an easy transition.
Yiuwin Tsang
No, I bet it wasn't, I can't quite get my head around it. But it's interesting that bit around your learning your self development, and I guess in that environment, there's a good opportunity for your own self reflection as well, rather than being I suppose, in it 100 miles an hour, going from office to office, with your dad and all the rest of it. And just like it comes back to I suppose that controlling is wrong word, but at least being aware of the dynamics in the room. And as you say that you can't really avoid it, you know, in corporate, it's predominantly male, predominantly middle aged and predominant, quite kind of privilege. So that's a challenging environment, you know, right, from the kind of outset, I suppose. But what did you do? How did you kind of handle those situations when you knew the dynamic was going to be tricky? I mean, what kind of preparation? Yeah, any kind of techniques or strategies.
Megan Taylor
I mean, probably, there's many stories where I probably didn't do it well enough. And 100%, I was like, had various emotional responses to things that people have said to me, or I've gone back to my room at night and cried, you know, all of that stuff happened. But I would say that when I feel most resourced, or best able to respond, or most present with a group with the kinds of conversations that we're helping them to have, is that doing the work on ourselves, right, it's making sure that I've got the reflective spaces, the slower time, you know, if I, I often, particularly if we're on site with a client or running retreat, and it's got some kind of tricky topics, getting out for run in the morning, getting outside, you know, switching off not getting consumed by the other things that might be going on in my family life or other clients, I think, really trying to kind of be present and practice presence feels really important. And then also just letting go or kind of being less attached to outcomes. And that's been a massive journey, for me of which again, it's not finished. But you know, having an idea of where you'd like to get a group to the place that you'd like to get them to. And also, knowing that in a conversation, it can go loads of ways, and actually trusting that the way it goes is the way it supposed to go. And that it will unravel something or kind of help a group to see something that it feels really important. And so letting go and kind of allowing what happens to happen, I think, has been hugely important. And when I do that, well, I feel like I'm doing my work the best I can do it.
Yiuwin Tsang
And that confidence they gives you, as you say that, I guess it kind of removes to a degree, the imposter syndrome, because I think you I imagine, and certainly in the early days, as you say,
Megan Taylor
I would have my agenda is printed out, you know, I would, there would be a check-in activity for 20 minutes, and then did another, you know, it was all and some facilitators do work really well like that. And they're good at it. And yet, I think particularly the nature of the work that we're doing, when you're bound by an agenda, or you've got, you know, you're so attached to kind of making what you thought should happen happen, you actually miss what's really happening in the room. And so over those years, I just, I never have an agenda. I mean, I tell the client, I have an agenda, because they would freak out if they didn't have one. But quite a lot of our colleagues today we have an idea of what we'd like to bring, but actually our skill set is sensing into what's needed. And so really listening and really kind of probing and kind of holding a group to have a quality conversation that takes such energy. And that can't be done with a technology that can't be done with a process or a procedure that requires someone super skillful to actually listen and support and kind of enable something to kind of emerge.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah. And through that interaction, you gain the trust of the people in the room can see, forgive me, I've got an absolutely awful football analogy, which I'm about. My dad always brings a good sports. Oh, good. Oh, good. Good, good. Good. Good. Excellent. Okay. So it's involves Paul gas going. And there's an interview that he did about when he goes on one of his Maisie runs and scores a goal. And they said, How do you do it and his method was that he said, he doesn't adhere to a specific plan, because he needs to be in the moment he needs to know to duck one way or the other way, depending on what the defenders are doing and things like this. So he said, it's so important for him to be receptive to being in the moment of what's happening right there. And then as opposed to get your head down when in that direction. I'm going in that direction. And I think it says a lot. I hope, as you say, if you're focused too much on a specific agenda or going in particular direction of travel, you perhaps missing the key cues in the room. On the people, and if they are like, could you not tell that we're trying to go this way, then you lose that trust, you lose that. But obviously, it's worked because now MD and how many people are in right beyond now.
Megan Taylor
We run as a consultant community. So our actual employees, it's really just the operation team, which has five employees. And then we're a consultancy community of around I think, at the moment about 18, maybe 20 consultants, mostly in the UK, some in Europe. And over the years that's ebbed and flowed in terms of work that we've had available, and what's kind of coming, but we tried to operate as a community of practice, which is quite an evolved way of having our consultants kind of learning and exploring the work that we're doing together with that whole concept of if we're not doing the work on ourselves, how on earth can we kind of give to our clients what we want to be able to give to them? So yeah, some people that run other consultancies, look at me, and they're like, are you nuts? You're so much more consultants, like, how is that efficient, or a good use of people's time and money? And I'm like, Yeah, but there's a quality that feels really important to that. That for us is really important and to not lose.
Yiuwin Tsang
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Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, indeed. And again, it's that they experience it's your reputation, and all the good things are going to flow from that level of engagement with your team. So talk to us about the trends, because you know, you're now the MD Yeah. So you kind of stepped in when your dad stepped away, talk us through that kind of process, because that must have come with its own challenges.
Megan Taylor
Oh, 100%? Yeah, I think, again, the process had been in play for a while, I think that was like always the idea that probably at some point, he would want to retire or slow down, I doubt he'll ever fully retire, but slow down and kind of step away. And that because I was super engaged in the business and kind of had been part of that executive for a while that probably I was going to be one of the people that would kind of take the business forward. So it didn't come as a surprise, I don't think anybody and yet, you know, about a year ago, I had just gotten back from two back to back maternity leaves, which of course, added pressure to the business in terms of well, in some ways that added pressure. And I think in other ways, it was a hugely important thing to happen, because it forced the business to figure out how to run without me. And I had been kind of the operations, I guess, of the business up until that point. So I think in some ways, actually, it helped the transition was like, creating space for others to step in. And then of course, COVID, also for everybody, but I think everybody kind of asked the big questions like, What do I want out of my life, like what's important? What really gives me energy and I think my dad made him really think it through. And my mom had just retired from being an esthetician for 25 years. And he was wanting to spend more time with her and do the things that they love together and was kind of starting to resent the weight and the responsibility of running a business and trying to grow and scale a business and was kind of ready, I think, to not have that relentlessness in his day to day. So that was becoming clear to him. And then similarly, when I came back from my second maternity leave, I was also asking questions about oh, okay, I've done eight years at Rhys, should I not go back to work straightaway? Should I focus on the kids? Has that been a really good experience? And now I'm ready to start something new. You know, there was lots of questions for me about what do I want to commit this next chapter of my professional career to and we just had a chat about it, I think it was, gosh, last June or something. And he shared his needs and his wants for the next few years. I said mine, and it kind of felt. And so he basically told me to go away and think about it. I don't want to feel pressured or pushed into taking over or leading rise. If you want to do something else, you should do something else. And so that felt super supportive. And I went away and I thought about it. And I came back and I was like, No, I really love what we're doing. I think it really makes a difference. I think it can make even more of a difference as we expand into new areas. And we've got amazing people involved. And there's something here that feels quite special. And I really wanted to see if I could do something with that. So that was by committing myself to it was a process I had to go through to kind of make sure that I wasn't just found myself here and actually had never asked to be here. I definitely looked at that. And then of course yeah, the process since then has been obviously formalising it with roles and reestablishing our new leadership team and you know, my dad almost being out really have the kind of day to day discussions about what we're doing and where we're going. So yeah, it's been quite a year.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, at beautiful business, we've got an audience of business leaders, organisational leaders, and because of the nature of the size of these organisations, they're often leadership teams that aren't founders. So they're MDS like yourself that have been brought in from within and in slightly less close quarters, I suppose if they're going through or have gone through very similar journeys to self and in many ways, I think those that are promoted from within an organisation face quite unique kind of challenges, you know, in terms of the change of dynamic of the relationships with the people that you work with it sounds like things have gone really well with you at Rice, there's probably loads of examples out there of where it doesn't go. So well. What do you think you did? Or how did you handle those kinds of inter team relationships? How was it for you with that shift?
Megan Taylor
Yeah, and don't get me wrong, there's definitely been moments of like, oh, my gosh, this is not going very well at all. I think if you ask the consultant that worked with us a few years ago, to come back and experience who we are today, I think they'd say, we're very different business, you know, we were run by three men and a woman four or five years ago. And now we run by four women, you know, it's even just that kind of female energy in terms of the leadership has completely transformed the business. And we have different aspirations for the business. So I think a huge part of it is when you're a new MD, or a new leadership team coming in, there's a wanting, like, reinvent, and also respect what's been and so particularly when it's my dad founded it, right. So I've got a huge amount of like, wanting to do him justice and his, you know, want for a legacy justice. And yet, I also want to do it in my way, and create an organisation that feels fit for the needs of organisations and communities today. And that isn't necessarily how we were approaching things 5678 years ago, so reinventing within an already established business is really hard. And we had some really tough and honest conversations about how do we want to lead this business? Do we want to just keep running it in the same way that we've been running it? Or do we need it to be different, and you know, quite a lot of as a mums, we have different projects that we're also involved in, outside of Rhys, and it felt really important to be really honest about what that would take from us. And we didn't want to be running and scaling a business that was going to be at the detriment to our marriages, our families, our other endeavours. And so you know, flexibility, and space and connection and trust felt really important to kind of put the core of how we work together, trusting that other bits will come, you know, we will grow, we will scale, we think what we're doing has an impact, and therefore, surely most people, you know, want our support, but we don't feel like we need to have the same push energy that perhaps might have a more masculine, I guess. You're not talking about masculine or feminine, like men and women. I think you can have mixed that in both genders. Yeah, I think that's been a really conscious conversation for us as leading differently.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah. And it's such a sensitive piece. And again, taking the father daughter relationship out for just a moment. But even as you said, a legacy piece is a really big thing. Did you chat with your dad about that about the changes that you want to kind of bring through and he was, well, he must have been supportive of it. And I guess, again, for listeners who might be going through a similar sort of journey, it sounds like it's such an important thing to get is that shared vision, the alignment that goes and also there's an acceptance, I suppose from the outgoing? Yeah, there will be a bit of a reinvention, the will be, you know, the butterfly emerging from the chrysalis. Yeah, it is an opportunity, I think, you know, that perhaps there are things that need to be changed, although things that you could change. And there's also things that you want to keep the same, but it's having that, as you say, having that discussion openly, transparently.
Megan Taylor
Yeah, I think, particularly for a founder letting go can be really hard, right? Because it's your baby. I mean, it was interesting, because as I was stepping into this role, and Rhys, I was exiting a charity that I had founded, I was running on the side. And, you know, I had found that it 10 years ago, it had grown and had evolved. And I had made the decision that if I was going to step into MD role at Rhys, and also be present for my kids, I probably also couldn't be continued being kind of charity trustees to this charity. And so I made the decision to leave. And that was really hard. Actually, it was kind of, like letting go of my baby. And knowing that probably was going to shift evolve, I couldn't like protect it anymore. And but it also felt 100% the right decision. And so I do wonder if perhaps me going through that process myself made me have a bit more compassion for what my dad might potentially be going through. He honestly is like, the best gift is the fact that my daughter wants to continue this thing that we've done together. And you know, I've been there for the most part of the whole existence of the business. So in some ways, we've kind of been running it together for quite a long time. But he's, like, elated that I would be taking this forward.
Yiuwin Tsang
Yeah, that's lovely. You know, there's some people I've spoken to who have stepped into the empty role promoted from within some of the transition have been super smooth, and they'd be empowered to bring about this change. And it's like a leap forward in things is an interesting way that you can use that dynamic in a really positive and really constructive kind of way. So how very destructive I can be. Yeah, well, this is their and this is it. And they see these kinds of the succession planning where it goes horribly wrong when the predecessor isn't ready to let go. And it just goes horribly, horribly wrong.
Speaker 1
Good. Well, that's what it's about. And for you personally, what's it been like? How's it shifted from the kind of operations led kind of role that you have before you went on that journey through to this kind of leadership? Also the people challenges? Yeah, there's all these things that kind of come on to you that decision making?
Megan Taylor
So I certainly I mean, I remember what sapping my dad at the end of the year will you'll be earning like Oh, leadership's hard. Because there was like various people issues that were coming to the forefront. And I like felt like, oh my god, I can't move this over to someone else anymore like this is on me to explore and work through. And yeah, it gave me a huge amount of compassion for perhaps what he had held. But also for, you know, the leaders that we work with in our clients, I think I'm getting a much more real feel for their day to day reality, albeit, we're very small business. So there's a weight of responsibility to employees to making sure that we're still alive next year, that probably was more shared or more on his chest last year. Yeah, I feel that kind of pulled to need to keep things moving, keep things going. And I also think there's been a massive learning curve around just admitting to myself, I can't do it all, you know, I've been someone that has grown up in huge privilege, and have been a hugely capable person has often thought that I could do it all right, and becoming a mum. And taking on this role, kind of in short succession has definitely been quite confronting at times, where I'm like, Oh, God, like, something's got to give here. And obviously, deciding to exit the charity was something that was a clear decision, but also just within the responsibilities I have in the business, I can't run the business anymore, I need to represent the business, I need to grow and support the brand. And I want to do the client work. And so we recently just hired a head of operations to kind of offload quite a big chunk of what I've typically done for the business. And I'm, she's way better than me. So I'm like, it's been delightful. Ah, this is great, like hiring people that are better than you. And this has always been something I'm like, this is really important to do. And I think I'm learning a lot in terms of Yeah, hiring smarter, better people than me
Yiuwin Tsang
They talk about you become an average of the people around you. So you want to you want to get people average, exactly, exactly that. And it sounds such a familiar journey with this kind of acceptance, where you can't do everything as a business leader, and then almost, but again, for kind of personally speaking, I kind of went through that as well. It's almost like a relief, it's like a weight is lifted off you isn't it? It's kind of like us, Okay, it's alright, it's alright to be a bit rubbish at this because you've got somebody who's way there. It's almost cathartic in many ways where you can kind of look at the world through a different lens, in many ways.
Megan Taylor
Yeah. And I think being really clear on what you don't want it to be, you know, I've seen God because we get such privilege to exposure and to clients. And people tell us their deepest, darkest stuff, I feel like I have a wealth of stories of what not to be like, or what not to be. And you can see how easy it is to slip into some of those more reactive places. And, of course, I haven't reacted at times. But you know, I just think when I catch myself in those days, right, this is not how I want to be and what needs to shift in order to create more space for me to bring what I can bring best. And yeah, I think I'm super appreciative of all of the exposure that I've had to, you know, amazing business leaders around the world and kind of the ability to learn from them and put in the good bits and to kind of my aspirations for how I'd like to be as a leader and as a contributor to hopefully making some form of useful impact on this planet.
Yiuwin Tsang
I'm sure you will. And you have done. I wonder just to wrap up just by covering perhaps one of the key topics of our time, really, and that is your reflections on the wider challenges of having a leadership team of women. You mentioned this for transitioning from previously, we had three blokes and a woman, you know, you spoke a little bit earlier about imposter syndrome, being a young woman in a predominantly male dominated kind of environment, for women in still a predominantly male dominated environment. How do you handle that? Do you find that it's actually advantageous in ways I imagine there can be ways. And also when we very first book you talk about this concept of owning the future? I'd love to hear a bit more about what you mean when you say that.
Megan Taylor
Yeah. So I think it's becoming more and more advantageous, you know, it stands out, you know, if you've gone to a website and see that it's led by women, I think that that is different to you know, what a more traditional consultancy might be. And yet, it's not to say that we don't like men, men are amazingly skillful at our work. And we have men in our consultancy that we definitely draw on. So we definitely don't have an issue with men. But I think that there's the imposter syndrome is real, right? All of us have it. I mean, even the most senior men CEOs that I've met, when they've actually got them in the room one on one, you realise, oh, God, this person is doesn't think they belong here, and all of the not so useful behaviours as a result of that. And so I think all of us have it in various forms. And I think what we like to hope that we're doing is create space so we can share it more honestly, some of our imposter syndromes. And the four of us come from very different backgrounds. I mean, I'm a dance background. One of them is a somatic psychotherapist, you know, we've got such different experiences and backgrounds that it's really important to, rather than not be moulds of each other, but actually own our difference and kind of bring our skillfulness into the group and then where we've got a deficiency, like we're in operations, for example, we hire someone that can come and do it and do it well rather than us collectively trying to kind of covered the bases. I mean, that wasn't working. So yeah, I think, you know, if you think about the future of business, I think it's changing. It has changed hugely just in the time that I've been working at Rise, and I think the future is going to become more and more embracing and supportive of people of difference of the dots, gender, colour, race, you know, all of those things. And I hope that consultancies that are supporting people in those places are also representative of the areas that they're trying to talk businesses in. And so don't get me wrong, we've got loads that we can improve on as well in terms of our diversity and kind of ways that we're working and things that we're thinking about. But I think it feels good that we're moving with the times and maybe marginally ahead of the times, perhaps. And I think that there's some really interesting conversations that are going to be more and more required in small organisations and big organisations, that the time is coming. You know, it's bubbling under the surface, we're seeing it spilling out everywhere. And our work is like ripe for that, you know, our work is that forcing people to have those more challenging conversations about the system that we live and work in that perhaps isn't fit for purpose anymore. So hopefully, we can do that. And do that. Well.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business podcast and a massive thank you to Megan Taylor from Rise Beyond for sharing her stories, her advice and her insights. Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet. You can also join in the discussion at www.beautifulbusiness.uk