Disclaimer: The following transcript is the output of an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. Every possible effort has been made to transcribe accurately. However, neither Beautiful Business nor The Wow Company shall be liable for any inaccuracies, errors, or omissions.
Yiuwin Tsang
Hello and welcome to the Beautiful Business Podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way of doing business. We believe beautiful businesses are led with purpose by people who care, guided by a clear strategy, and soulfully grown. Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast brought to you by The Wow Company. My name is Yiuwin Tsang, part of the Beautiful Business team. And this week, we were joined by Chris Shaw. Now Chris is a creative at heart. He spent the last 20 years helping business leaders around the world maximise growth and achieve the results they really want, all against the backdrop of change. During his career, he has built an extensive playbook containing more than 200, unique tools, frameworks and insights all designed to simplify the complex nature of business and facilitate creative thinking. He has successfully built and exited both a management consultancy and a creative agency in the last 10 years, using his blend of commercial experience and academic insight to accelerate the growth of organisations and a wide range of sectors, including finance, media, education, and professional services. He has published articles on Leadership, Culture, strategy and inclusion. Last in 2024, we'll see Chris venture into the realm of horror fiction, having recently signed a five book publishing deal in the young adult space. Let's jump straight in. Chris, can you give us a bit of a background of the work that you do in the leadership space?
Chris Shaw
Atmosphere, which is where I'm a partner at the moment we work with businesses and to help them develop their adaptability. So we do this by building various scenarios that challenge the current ways of thinking within those businesses. Not only thinking but also the ways they operate as well, and enforces them in a nice way to think about creating new approaches. And that's, in a nutshell, what we're doing. Now, a lot of that is around strategy. But we're helping leadership teams develop that capability to adapt against rapid change, which is what we're all faced with.
Yiuwin Tsang
Fabulous, fabulous. So in terms of the work that you do there, then I guess as a great report, the challenge I imagined Chris is around bringing leaders of those businesses on that journey with you. And no doubt there will be intellect in so many sales situations and scenarios, you'll have the champions, you know, the people that are all aboard, and they're really open to it, you'll have the neutrals who might be just a bit like, Okay, what's this, you'll have the detractors, no doubt that people that are dragging their feet and things like this, do you find that in the space that you're in in terms of helping businesses with adaptability and leadership, adaptability? And how do you identify it? How do you kind of work with that?
Chris Shaw
I think we definitely see it to a degree, I think when businesses take the time to talk through our proposition with them, in terms of what our approach is, and why our approach, why we believe our approach is so important, they get it, no one sits there and goes, things aren't going to change. No one's sitting there with that message. I think the challenge is always the urgency of it. And there's always like 10 other priorities going on within a business and, you know, climate, technology, and all the rest of it aren't necessarily shouting the loudest at the moment in all businesses. And so they get kind of bumped down the pile bumped down the pecking order, you know, you do get leaders that will pass the bunk, and say, well, actually, that's something for the next generation to deal with. And that, you know, they can pick up the slack on that, but we get very few that deny it altogether, they kind of get it when we talk them through, what we see is that acute shift that's coming in all these things that we're seeing within society and the planet, they're all part of a bigger change that's occurring. But their urgency to address it. Sometimes that's the spectrum that we're kind of trying to navigate and say, Alright, well, okay, well, how do we move these people to a more urgent space, so they get it? I've done an experiment recently, where we've just, it was just a simple diagnostic, where we sent out a few scenarios, and then got people to assess their business model, the way they work, you know, how quickly or How confident were they that they could adapt to this new scenario quicker than their competitors? And of course, people will grade it and you know, works like a radiograph. And then the second question was, well, how much time do you spend assessing if those areas of your business are fit for purpose? And of course, people don't reassess their business model. If it's working, you know, thing broke, don't fix it. And so the problem is, is we're gonna see an increase in cautionary tales, people like Blockbuster, Kodak, all those guys. And businesses need to be equipped and arm to deal with that and avoid that. And that's really where we're trying to sort of drive that urgency. Everyone, you know, there are certain industries that still think they're untouchable. And we will play scenarios to those businesses that show that they might not be.
Yiuwin Tsang
I remember, I've seen a if you Google, like the best sales deck in the world, you'll probably see one that's from a company called zwar. And they're like a subscriptions company managing subscriptions. You've probably seen it as well, Chris, and the emphasis on the sales stack is how it's a changing world. And I think if you ask anybody, the world is changing. And then the second part is that whenever there's change, there are winners and there are losers. And I think this is what you're alluding to, you know that there'll be those that will take advantage of that change and will ride the crest of that wave, and they'll be those who get left behind. This is a few years old now, but one of the standout slides that this guy pulled out was a comparison of the footsie 100, or the New York Stock Exchange 100, top 10 from 10 years ago versus this years ago, and it was like two or three that was still there. Yeah, the rest of them have gone new. So the change is inevitable, and the opportunity and the fact that there are going to be winners and losers. But I've wondered, you know, going back to that point of like, some leaders being viewing this or perceiving this as an urgent thing, versus the leaders that don't, and I'm a sucker for over two by two matrix of really important and urgent and, you know, getting into boxes, what are these kinds of illusions? Or why do you think leaders kind of do turn a blind eye to it? Cuz you're right, there's always going to be existential kind of threats. Yeah, you know, caches light, you know, we've got a competitor that's winning our market share. That's throw the ball harder, like, you know, to kind of feel that analogy. But then you've got companies examples of companies, which are absolutely cruising it yet. So they have got that headspace, but they don't use that space to consider the future. Why do you think that is?
Chris Shaw
It's a weird thing. I mean, I look around, and particularly now as well, I think there's a real absence of role models in the leadership space, that are visible for people to say, right, okay, this is what a leader means. I mean, my wife watches the news. Every morning, she watches like Good morning, Britain. And keep on a Brit, whether it's around the timing of the day, or whatever it is, they have a politician on tackling some debate. And it's normally a 10 minute exercise and trying to pin jelly to the wall. That's what happens. And we think, well, actually, a lot of our leaders, they're all kind of media trained, and their coach didn't. So being slippery and evading questions, and not letting themselves be vulnerable. And when you think about what a leader means, the term a leader means you know, it's kind of flying in the face of that. And so I think there's a bit of a worrying trend at the moment with the leaders that we do have the visible whether or not actual leaders were what I would call leaders. And I've seen this in other industries, you know, where you look at the education system, for example, when it's become more administrative, it's restricted, what I would call people who have it or see teaching as a calling, and it can adapt to individual needs. And it's more this kind of one size fits all, it's like a factory mentality. And the problem is, is when you've got people going through that education system, the role models, the teachers that would have seen teaching as a calling and would have been able to adapt or not there. And so they then attract another generation of administrative teachers. I mean, this isn't me. This isn't a sweeping statement around teaching. It's a trend that you see, you know, and so I think leadership is starting to, you're starting to see that same issue occur where the, you know, we're seeing a lot of leaders that slippery. And that's attractive to people who think, well, actually, I could do that. And that's not grasping what leadership is. So I think that's a real issue. And it's a growing concern we need to give visibility to you know, we need more trailblazers. You know, in underrepresented communities, we need more authenticity, we need more leaders embracing what makes us as human, we need more leaders, that sort of demonstrating that power of inclusion. And we're not really seeing that a lot. And the worse things get, the more airtime those politicians and leaders get, trying to be, you know, this whole sort of nailing jello to the wall fiasco. So I think we need to reassess what a leader means and actually embrace that, rather than what it sort of morphed into over the years.
Yiuwin Tsang
That's interesting. So it's like, using teachers as an example, somebody saying that because it's like it's a systemic challenge, rather than just an individual challenge individuals that pop up as leaders as a result of the systems that we have in place. And as you say, promoting in a politician's world, the slippery are ones who present well in front of a camera as opposed to perhaps, you know, the firebrands of the you know, of yesteryear, who could really motivate and mobilise people a following and get people to follow them up. I came across a phrase not that long ago, which I thought was absolutely lovely. And that was like, how can you get people to follow you even when they don't have to that mean leadership? Right. And I think you're right, there's fewer examples of that, certainly in the public realm. But even in the business realm, it's harder to see because as you go, like further up the food chain, you've got more accountability to the shareholders, and you've got to hit your court leaves and things like this. It's interesting. It's really interesting, like the behaviour has been shaped by the system. And I don't know whether or not I'm going down a bit of a rabbit hole here, but I'm just thinking about things like quarterly AGM and things like that, first of all, very short term, you know, because you're just living in the quarter. And but then also, it's a lagging indicator, right? If you're looking at your revenue performance from the quarter gone, as opposed to the leading side
Chris Shaw
Yeah, yeah, we do get caught up in that way too often. But I think, you know, the whole connectivity, the accessibility, the invasion of people's space, has created this need for people to present in a certain way and show up in a certain way. And I think you look at it across, even in the entertainment industry, you know, actors, footballers, you know, the sport in space, they're all media trained, how to feel tricky conversations on camera. And what that presents is not who they are on the pitch or who they are on the court. And so you've got this disconnect, where people aren't really benefiting from seeing leaders in flow, they're seeing a watered down, restricted version of them. And that's not going to attract leaders, leaders are going to be thinking, you know, much like teachers and teachers who see that as a calling, we'll be sitting there saying, well, actually, I can't operate. And I know lots of teachers who've come out of education because they can't operate within the education system and bet and utilise their skill. So they look for other avenues. But what it does is it robs that industry of its role models that are going to encourage that next generation of people who have that gift, who see that as a calling, you know, this sort of one size fits all mentality doesn't work. And that's the challenge. And then when you combine that with then people looking backwards, as you say, I'm not looking forward enough and not thinking, well, actually, we're entering a time now where perhaps there isn't as much we can learn from looking backwards in order to navigate because this is not uncharted territory. So we're gonna have to really free up their brains here and think more creatively. They're not equipped to do that. They're sitting there thinking, Well, how do I navigate this? Let's consult my media training. Let's consult my playbook for being slippery.
Yiuwin Tsang
Let's have a look at last year's figures, right? Okay. Yeah, yeah,
Chris Shaw
I think, you know, from a leadership perspective, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Patrick Lencioni. So he did a piece on the five sort of functions of a team of five dysfunctions of a team, but he also did a piece, which was around the five temptations of a leader, and they're all still valid. And some of those things are never going to change. You know, when we talked about businesses adapting the adoption curve, the belt, that's never going to change, that's always going to be the same. And there are some things, basic things that we can revisit and look at and say, right, how do we make these applicable now? And how do we learn from them, because I think we're leaving them in the past a little bit, and they've still got a place. With our data. It's
Yiuwin Tsang
interesting, a bit like the work that you've done it, we atmosphere, where the outcomes can be variable all the time, you never know what they're going to be. And the principle of being adaptable. It's almost like those methods, it's about having a No, we just kind of like poopoo, the idea of playbooks, but it's about the playbooks of dealing with uncertainty, right. It's about dealing with what's coming down. And likewise, with with leadership, there has to be value placed on leaders being able to deal with the unknown to be able to handle the unexpected, as opposed to being really good at doing what we always did before. And I think that's a boil down, isn't it? Because well, you know, I suppose one of the dangers for leaders is that they kind of sit on that kind of mantle of it. You know, look, I've grown the business 20% year on year, doing what I do, as opposed to, you know, what's coming further down the line? Where are the threats, where the opportunities that we could make a move?
Chris Shaw
Yeah, and people just don't spend enough time on that. That's the upshot. And sort of just circling back in closing off the whole leadership piece, I think, the important part of leadership that seems to be missing now, and everywhere you look, or certainly Everywhere I look, is that inspiration factor? How do you get people to follow when they don't need to? That's where inspiration comes in. And I think that's very difficult to do if you've got both hands tied behind your back, or you're restricted in ways that prevent you from being that are showing up in an authentic version of yourself. So I think they do need to spend more time doing these things. Even SWOT analysis, you know, so this is a tried and tested process. Businesses don't do enough of that. But they don't do it regularly enough. And the challenge is, as these changes are coming in more rapidly, they're going to need to be doing that sort of thing more regularly. But they don't, you know, what people don't appreciate is whatever got them to where they are now isn't going to get them to where they need to be in one two years time. And that might sound extreme. But the changes that we're seeing coming in, are that extreme.
Yiuwin Tsang
And it's the foresight that comes with it, as well as the foresight that comes with this productivity. It happens so often when you know, businesses hit a buffer or you know, they hit some trouble. And it's like, oh, well, this happened and what happened to kind of navigate around when the reality is, as you said, with that kind of scenario, planning methodology or having or doing that kind of SWOT analysis, then at least it would have come up on the agenda a bit earlier on, how frequently would you I mean, if you were coaching or mentoring a business leader, how frequently would you get them to and then the other question, Chris, is, would you get them to do something like a SWOT analysis on themselves, you know, in terms of what they need to do personally as a leader in the context of leadership, or would you do it in the context of the business as a whole
Chris Shaw
I think you need to do both. I think every leader needs to keep continually review leaders need to be open to learning. And developing and evolving is a strange dynamic, because on the flip side, they need to accept the fact that they won't have all the answers and be open about that as well. You know, people aren't expecting leaders to have all the answers. It goes back to that Lencioni pace, you know, which is the sort of invulnerability that people want to project. And that doesn't breed trust. Because it's, no one's invulnerable. So I think they do need to be using those tools. And there's a whole raft of tools that people can use to assess and reassess where they stand. And it's not about starting afresh every quarter. You don't need to do a SWOT analysis on your business every quarter or every month, but just staying in touch with it and revisiting it and saying, and testing it and saying, is this still fit for purpose? How are things evolving? What things are evolving, that we didn't anticipate? What could those impacts be just staying in touch with it, I think too far too often, businesses say, you know, we're going to have an away day or a strategy session. And we're saying, Well, we're going to shoehorn it all into that one day or two day piece. And it's not enough time. And then it becomes something quite abstract, it becomes Well, this was a great exercise that we just did. And we've got a spreadsheet, and we've got a lovely diagram or range of diagrams. And we're just going to file that now and just get back to business as usual. And that happens way too often. And so you know, these things need to be like living breathing documents, that part of your business, in order for you to stay in touch with them. And you need to be looking at the news, you know, you need to be looking at what's going on what's going on and what's coming on, you need to take an interest in that you can't just bury your head in the sand, and hope that it's going to be sort of sorted out for you, you know, everyone's got to take ownership. And that's what leaders should be doing.
Yiuwin Tsang
It's interesting that Billy said about doing these way days, everybody has a lovely time does a whole kind of like, you know, building things that are Lego, and spaghetti wrenches and things like this. But it's so often if as you say, it falls away, and you get locked in a drawer, put in a file somewhere and never to be looked at again, or looked at when it's a bit too late. Again, it's interesting, the point he made where people do try and cram it all in two days. And perhaps this is the nature of our businesses, that Amazon Prime kind of mentality when it now wanted tomorrow, and putting this pressure on us as teams to deliver, deliver, deliver. And we don't give ourselves that breathing space for stuff to properly ferment in our minds. Like, you know, we'll say this is our purpose is what we're going to do. And it's kind of like tick boxes tick. That's it put it away. Yeah, we don't give ourselves the opportunity to reflect and to kind of think well, actually, you know, this is what it could mean, this is what it could mean further down the line or, and that might be a good thing. It might be a bad thing. But it has to kind of percolate. Give that thought give that vision that space to brief.
Chris Shaw
Yeah, businesses need that thinking and reflection time and they don't afford it. Because they don't see it as productive. They don't, it's not directly traceable to productivity and the way that they measure it. Again, that's legacy ways of looking at things that we're not willing to sort of break away from. And until we do, things aren't going to change, you're always going to get this steady stream of cautionary tales that missed the boat or didn't see the warning signs or saw them or acknowledged them in an away day and then forgot all about it. Because business as usual, was too loud, too overpowering. And until we start sort of breaking up those ways of thinking about business, you're always going to get that, you know, and this is something that I see particularly with like smaller businesses, smaller businesses often look to corporate experience to guide them. As they're growing. When I started out in the consultancy space, there was a lot of corporate people that came out of corporate into consulting. And they were just translating this corporate way of doing business into this SMEs and smaller entities. That's not always the right option. Because you're just transferring those limited ways of thinking sometimes, sometimes. So you've got to have that ability to look at things more creatively to think about how you can adapt and take the time to process it. Because if you don't, it's a great exercise at the time, it gets everyone infused. Everyone had a great lunch. You know, they might talk about it for a couple of days when they came back to the office. But then pretty soon that noise
Yiuwin Tsang
just overpowers. I guess for our role as leaders, especially if you've got a leadership team or a senior leadership team is to encourage them to kind of stand firm on these things and make sure that you bring them out and you see it on you where your businesses agree on. For example, we're going through our B Corp processes and and we're talking about our mission statement and our purposes and what we're trying to do. And then if you're able to bake that into your processes in your thinking and almost have it as a yardstick then weirdly it brings more clarity to things you know is this fulfil our mission? You know, ours is around bringing more opportunities to underprivileged and underrepresented is the work that we're doing going to do that yes or no. And it helps kind of bring more clarity around. And last question I've got for you, Chris, what would you like to see in future generations of business leaders what will bring joy to your heart if you could see you know, the future generation kind of doing
Chris Shaw
it First out more diversity. Without a doubt, more authenticity, you know, this kind of reluctance to admit to failings, I failed more times than I succeeded. Yeah. And we need to break through that sort of stigma around admitting no one learns anything from success, we learn from failing. So, you know, embracing those things that make us human, creating more inclusive environments where people are happy in the workplace, the world is littered with statistics that say most people are miserable working. So what are we trying to do to fix that? And it isn't, you know, we've gone through phases where that was where we put some beanbags in or for a football table in or, you know, and that will do it. It's so much more than that. You know, a lot of people need that sense of purpose. And things like climate start to rise up on the agenda that enables people to have that outlet to fulfil that aspect of their purpose. You know, I think I mentioned it earlier, we need more trailblazers in underrepresented communities, you know that diversity needs to be real diversity. We need more voices and perspectives. Because that's the only way you cross pollinate and grow, you know, you're not going to get any kind of real development if we've got the same people, or the same profile of people showing up as leaders and sort of back to my point earlier around what people are seeing now on the news and in the media, that's a concern. That's like writing on the wall from a leadership perspective, because if that's as good as we've got, then we're all in big trouble.
Yiuwin Tsang
Thank you for listening to this week's podcast and a big thank you to Chris Shaw, for joining us and sharing his insights. Thank you for joining us for this week's Beautiful Business podcast. Beautiful Business is a community for leaders who believe there's a better way to do business. Join us next time for more interesting discussion on how businesses can bring about change, helping communities, building a fairer society and safeguarding the planet.