Cyber Crime Junkies

Inside Story of Chris Voss and Never Split The Difference Pt 1

April 20, 2024 Cyber Crime Junkies-David Mauro Season 4 Episode 42
Inside Story of Chris Voss and Never Split The Difference Pt 1
Cyber Crime Junkies
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Cyber Crime Junkies
Inside Story of Chris Voss and Never Split The Difference Pt 1
Apr 20, 2024 Season 4 Episode 42
Cyber Crime Junkies-David Mauro

NEW! Text Us Direct Here!

Chris Voss, founder of the Black Swan Group,  joins us to share the story behind Never Split The Difference, the #1 Wall Street Journal best selling book on Negotiation. 

The most decorated FBI hostage negotiator in history, Chris Voss teaches his model Harvard Law, Georgetown University and others. 

Key Takeaways 

  • how never split the difference started,
  • Optimal Timing for Negotiations
  • The Neuroscience Behind Tactical Empathy
  • best ways to collaborate in negotiations,
  • ways to negotiate like your life depended on it,
  • best ways to collaborate in negotiations,
  • how to practice Never Split the Difference,
  • benefits of using active listening and importance of body language in communications,
  • and other top techniques in Never Split the Difference,

Chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction to Chris Voss and the Black Swan Method
  • 03:34 Chris Voss's Background and the Documentary
  • 04:04 Chris Voss's Journey into Law Enforcement
  • 06:26 Mentors and Becoming a Hostage Negotiator
  • 09:22 The Foundation of the Black Swan Method
  • 14:14 Developing Tactical Empathy on a Suicide Hotline
  • 21:36 Practicing and Applying the Black Swan Method
  • 24:30 Optimal Timing for Negotiations
  • 28:22 Tactical Empathy with Adversaries
  • 32:40 Defining Tactical Empathy
  • 34:41 The Future of Tactical Empathy and Neuroscience

To grab your copy of Never Split The Difference you can buy it here (not an affiliate link). https://a.co/d/229P5UV

To find more of Chris Voss and The Black Swan Group: https://www.blackswanltd.com/

Click the link above and leave your message!

You can now text our Podcast Studio direct. Ask questions, suggest guests and stories. 

We Look Forward To Hearing From You!




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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

NEW! Text Us Direct Here!

Chris Voss, founder of the Black Swan Group,  joins us to share the story behind Never Split The Difference, the #1 Wall Street Journal best selling book on Negotiation. 

The most decorated FBI hostage negotiator in history, Chris Voss teaches his model Harvard Law, Georgetown University and others. 

Key Takeaways 

  • how never split the difference started,
  • Optimal Timing for Negotiations
  • The Neuroscience Behind Tactical Empathy
  • best ways to collaborate in negotiations,
  • ways to negotiate like your life depended on it,
  • best ways to collaborate in negotiations,
  • how to practice Never Split the Difference,
  • benefits of using active listening and importance of body language in communications,
  • and other top techniques in Never Split the Difference,

Chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction to Chris Voss and the Black Swan Method
  • 03:34 Chris Voss's Background and the Documentary
  • 04:04 Chris Voss's Journey into Law Enforcement
  • 06:26 Mentors and Becoming a Hostage Negotiator
  • 09:22 The Foundation of the Black Swan Method
  • 14:14 Developing Tactical Empathy on a Suicide Hotline
  • 21:36 Practicing and Applying the Black Swan Method
  • 24:30 Optimal Timing for Negotiations
  • 28:22 Tactical Empathy with Adversaries
  • 32:40 Defining Tactical Empathy
  • 34:41 The Future of Tactical Empathy and Neuroscience

To grab your copy of Never Split The Difference you can buy it here (not an affiliate link). https://a.co/d/229P5UV

To find more of Chris Voss and The Black Swan Group: https://www.blackswanltd.com/

Click the link above and leave your message!

You can now text our Podcast Studio direct. Ask questions, suggest guests and stories. 

We Look Forward To Hearing From You!




Custom handmade Women's Clothing, Plushies & Accessories at Blushingintrovert.com. Portions of your purchase go to Mental Health Awareness efforts.

🎧 Subscribe now http://www.youtube.com/@cybercrimejunkiespodcast and never miss an episode!

Follow Us:
🔗 Website: https://cybercrimejunkies.com
📱 X/Twitter: https://x.com/CybercrimeJunky
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cybercrimejunkies/

Want to help us out? Leave us a 5-Star review on Apple Podcast Reviews.
Listen to Our Podcast:
🎙️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cyber-crime-junkies/id1633932941
🎙️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5y4U2v51gztlenr8TJ2LJs?si=537680ec262545b3
🎙️ Google Podcasts: http://www.youtube.com/@cybercrimejunkiespodcast

Join the Conversation: 💬 Leave your comments and questions. TEXT THE LINK ABOVE . We'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes!

Story Behind Never Split the Difference. Chris Voss.

Chris Voss joins us to share the story behind Never Split the Difference, the #1 Wall Street Journal best-selling book on Negotiation. 

As the most decorated FBI hostage negotiator in history, Chris Voss teaches his model at Harvard Law, Georgetown University, and others. He is the founder of the Black Swan Group.

New takeaways from Chris Voss:

• how to become better at communication skills, 
• how to practice the model 
• best ways to collaborate in negotiations,
• How Accusation Audits work, 
• How Tactical Empathy and Espionage are used, 
• how to negotiate with an irrational person, 
• Deep dive into the top techniques 

and other Secrets behind Never Split the Difference.



PART 1 Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Chris Voss and the Black Swan Method
03:34 Chris Voss's Background and the Documentary
04:04 Chris Voss's Journey into Law Enforcement
06:26 Mentors and Becoming a Hostage Negotiator
09:22 The Foundation of the Black Swan Method
14:14 Developing Tactical Empathy on a Suicide Hotline
21:36 Practicing and Applying the Black Swan Method
24:30 Optimal Timing for Negotiations
28:22 Tactical Empathy with Adversaries
32:40 Defining Tactical Empathy
34:41 The Future of Tactical Empathy and Neuroscience

PART 2 Chapters


00:00 Introduction to the Never Split the Difference Method
02:15 Mastering the Never Split the Difference Method of Negotiation
03:11 The Power of Active Listening and Tactical Empathy
05:31 Uncovering Concealed Motivations and Undisclosed Needs
07:22 The Importance of Proof of Life in Negotiations
08:44 Using Decreasing Incremental Change in Bargaining
10:41 Dealing with Aggressive Individuals and Building Agreement

To grab your copy of Never Split The Difference you can buy it here (not an affiliate link). https://a.co/d/229P5UV

To find more of Chris Voss and The Black Swan Group: https://www.blackswanltd.com/


Dino Mauro (00:01.506)
Seems like we will all benefit from knowing how to become better at communication skills. We're joined by the founder of the Black Swan Group, author of the number one Wall Street Journal bestselling book on negotiation, Never Split the Difference. Chris Voss is the most decorated FBI hostage negotiator in history. He joins us today to talk about the story behind Never Split the Difference. And throughout it, you'll find the best ways to collaborate in negotiation.

how to listen with empathy and how to ask better questions. In the end, we know it will help you figure out how to improve your communication skills, manage conflict with other people, and improve your relationships. This is the story of Chris Voss and how you can learn how to never split the difference.

Dino Mauro (01:17.962)
Come join us as we dive deeper behind the scenes of security and cybercrime today. Interviewing top technology leaders from around the world and sharing true cybercrime stories to raise awareness. From the creators of Vigilance, the newest global technology newsletter translating cyber news into business language we all understand. So please help us keep this going by subscribing for free to our YouTube channel.

and downloading our podcast episodes on Apple and Spotify so we can continue to bring you more of what matters. This is Cyber Crime Junkies, and now the show.

Dino Mauro (02:06.69)
Hey there cybercrime junkies. I am your host David Morrow and we're honored and joined today by someone we've had a great deal of respect for Mr. Chris Voss. Chris has served 24 years in the FBI, one of the most decorated FBI agents in history, specializing in hostage negotiation, handled many high profile cases, making international news and today Chris is an American business jogger knot.

author of the iconic Never Split the Difference, which has been transcribed in over 30 languages in over 35 different countries on the planet. So Wall Street Journal bestseller and the number one Amazon bestselling book for negotiation. He's not only the author of Never Split the Difference, but another book called Empathy and Understanding in Business, which is also outstanding. We're business leaders around the globe kind of share

their experiences with using the Black Swan method in their experience. Both books hold permanent residence on my bookshelf on my left and have been there since they've been published. He's a professor and has been a professor at Harvard Law, Georgetown University and other institutions of higher learning. He's the founder and CEO of the Black Swan Group and he and his team have a masterclass, which was excellent.

Mr. Ross, welcome to the studio. David, thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure. There's also a documentary coming out called, Where Can People Catch That? What is that still in development? Now, Nick is working on a distribution deal for that right now. I expect him to have something done by the middle of the year. My guess is it'll be Amazon or Netflix, but that's in Nick's hands. Should be out soon. I'm looking forward to it coming out. OK. It hits on several cases that I worked

you know, amazing to be a part of Chase Manhattan bank robbery and then attract them in siege and Washington, DC. And then my son's in it and it's pretty good. I'm, uh, I'm very proud of what Nick put together. That's great. That's awesome. So, um, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions, uh, before we kind of get into a discussion on negotiation in the Black Swine Method. How did you first get involved in law enforcement? I mean, you grew up in

Dino Mauro (04:33.786)
Iowa, I believe, right? Small town in Iowa, yeah. In law enforcement and the FBI over in the... Yeah. And you had a very strong-minded mother, as I understand, as I've seen you discuss as I did growing up in the Midwest. What inspired you to get into law enforcement in the first place? I think principally when I was 16, I saw a movie called The Super Cops about two...

New York City cops, based on a true story. These guys were wildly innovative, very creative, independent. And the community that they were in, which was a high crime community, the community loved them and they put a lot of bad guys in jail and they had a great time doing it. And I was really inspired by that movie and that really set me on that track. That's phenomenal. And, and did you begin the career straight into the FBI to go into hostage negotiation? They come from all over.

Yeah, that's a cool thing about the Bureau, from all kinds of backgrounds, everything, school teachers, scientists, former cops. So, I got a four-year degree. I went to school at Iowa State University. At the time, it was affectionately known as MUU. It was a university that was originally designed to set up for farmers to be able to go to school when they weren't in the fields.

And they're in the fields and they're explaining the fall. Agricultural management, things like that, right? Yeah. And so I got out of college, I went and joined the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. And I was there for three years. And that was while I was in college, I got the idea, not in college, when I was at the PD, I got attracted to federal law enforcement. And then I ended up applying to the FBI and joined the FBI right about three years after I became a police officer. So you started at the KC PD.

KCMO, Kansas City, Missouri. Yes. Great police department. Wow. That is, yeah. That's good. When you were starting out, did you have somebody that kind of took you under your wing, somebody that like served as one of your mentors? Well, you know, there were a lot, there were informal mentors along the way. And what I love about that question is, um, you know, if somebody takes you under their wing, it's because, uh, you asked them how to do something and you were asking the right person.

Dino Mauro (06:56.81)
You know, there's never take advice from somebody who wouldn't trade places with, never take direction from somebody who hasn't been where you're going. So it's a critical issue of there's trust and confidence. Can you trust them? And do they know what they're talking about? A lot of people you can trust, they don't know what they're talking about. They're very well-meaning, but they just don't know. So how do you get an informal mentor? Go to somebody who's doing a good job of what you want to be good at, ask them what to do, and then do what they tell you.

which seems ridiculously obvious, but most people don't do it. Most people do, we had something in the bureau that called shopping opinions. If there were new agents on a squad and they'd walk around and ask questions, what they were doing was shopping for something that they wanted to do anyway. And as a more seasoned agent, you spot these guys a million miles away. They walk around and ask questions. They're not following anybody's guide.

So your original question on mentors. Nobody really took me under the wing in a police department per se. A couple of sergeants knew I wanted to learn, and they were always looking out for me and guiding me, because I listened. One in uniform, one police detective I really learned a lot from. A lot of the detectives got kicked out of the detective bureau in Kansas City because there was a dispute with the administration.

The detective said, you know, this is tantamount to promotion because we become detectives and we're never put back in uniform. So effectively we've been promoted and we want to get paid accordingly. And so they didn't realize what they were setting themselves up for. So the administration, as bureaucratic administrations will do, well, they said, oh, well, one of your points is you never get put back in uniform. All right, a bunch of you are going back to uniform.

And it was bad for them, but then some really experienced police officers came back out into the field. And I remember one guy in particular just really showed me how to talk to people. And I soaked it up. So he showed me, you know, he didn't tell me. I saw him work miracles just based on his tone of voice. So I started paying attention and he started offering me some guidance in different spots along the way in my life. You know, I asked the right people.

Dino Mauro (09:22.194)
I did what they told me to do and then what happens is they tend to look out for you if you're asked the right person and you show that you will actually follow instruction, which is also a rare commodity. Sounds very common but it's very rare. Then they're going to look out for you because they want to see you succeed because you're doing what they told you to do. So informal mentors along the way.

Towards the end of my career, Gary Nessner was the head of the hostage negotiation unit when I first got there. And Gary was really a great mentor and I appreciate everything I learned from Gary. That's phenomenal. You know, how did you first decide to go into hostage negotiation? When did you decide that's the specialty within long-term? That was an accident. I mean, I always wanted to be on the SWAT team.

You know, I'd applied for the SWAT team with the police department and was actually set to be transferred when I accepted the job from the Bureau. And then I was on the SWAT team in Pittsburgh, my first office, FBI Pittsburgh, I was on a SWAT team there. And then when I got transferred to New York as part of a normal rotation, I tried out for the Bureau's hostage rescue team and I ended up re-injuring my knee. I had been in martial arts. You know, I'm kind of a medium size, though. There are a lot of people on the street, a lot bigger.

and a lot more capable than me. So I thought, all right, so I don't expect to be this big beefy guy. When I'm in college, let me learn some martial arts. And I had tore ligaments, tore my knee up pretty good in college, had it repaired. Then when I was training up for the hostage rescue team, a number of years later, about 10 years later, as a matter of fact, I tore, I re-injured my knee.

and had it worked on again. And so I thought, you know, I can't do this that many times. And we got hostage negotiators, you know, and that's crisis response. I love crisis response because you have to make decisions. I don't like comfortable in action, I never have. And so I thought, yeah, I'll be a hostage negotiator. How hard could that be? And I was actually rejected, but I took some advice on how to get on the team and I followed.

Dino Mauro (11:46.114)
Then I got on the team and it was- So you were rejected, you took it up? Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Go ahead. That's okay. When I got there, when I learned the skill, it was more... I love SWAT and hostage negotiation was better than SWAT ever was. Yeah. So after you got rejected, you didn't just accept that and look to something different. You went back and you said, that's still what I want to do.

what you needed to learn, what you needed to skill up on, and then reapply? Yeah, well, and effectively, the person that rejected me, the woman that rejected me, I said, what can I do? How can I make myself eligible? And she said, go volunteer on the suicide hotline. And I did. And when I came back to her about four months, four or five months after I'd been on the hotline, she was shocked that I took her advice.

You know, this following, taking instruction professionally from the right people is, it's stupid how rare that actually is. And immediately when she saw that I took initiative and I took instruction, she put me in line to become the next person trained for the hostage negotiation thing. That's phenomenal. Isn't doing that aligned with the Black Swan method in and of itself, right? It's establishing trust. It's demonstrating.

the credibility when somebody gives you instruction and you're right, very few people actually do it. But when you demonstrate that you do it, you're building a level of trust between the two of you. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I love that you're using the word trust there because to really understand trust, take away the word trust and substitute the word predictability in. And so if somebody gives you guidance,

It's predictable that you follow it and trust as a result comes. You know, they're not going to be shocked that you went and did something else. You're going to do what they told you to do and trust follows because trust is predictability. Excellent. Um, what was the experience like before we get into Black Swan piece? You served in a, you volunteered on a suicide hotline. I, uh, my strong-minded mother did that for over 20 years.

Dino Mauro (14:14.066)
And I used to hear the stories and see her go through that because it really affected her but she kept going back. And what was that like for you? Was there any lessons in there in dealing with that helped you in the negotiation? Well, yeah, the whole foundation of Black Swan Method really started there. And it was understanding what empathy is.

Empathy is a demonstration of understanding. And then it was a master class on emotional intelligence. Now, the big advantage I had there was I volunteered on the suicide hotline to learn a skill. I went there for mercenary reasons. Consequently, you know, doing good while I was there, the missionary aspect of it was a fringe benefit. It was icing on the cake. Now, what's the advantage of that? If you go there to help people,

There's a significant number of people that call crisis hotlines and suicide hotlines only to manipulate the volunteer. And that burnout is high. So all hotlines, their number one problem is volunteer burnout. Now funding is a problem too. Keeping the doors open, keeping the lights on is the number two problem and it ain't far behind number one. But number one is always volunteer burnout.

because of the challenging nature of the manipulative people that call. Now flip that over, if I'm only there to learn a skill, instead of being burned out by the manipulative callers, the life vampires. I was intrigued by them. You know, to me it was a learning experience. Like, how do you adapt to these people? So the experience for me and basically everything that is the Black's One Method really started on that crisis hotline.

way back last century. That's exactly what I wanted to ask you is, is how did these principles, how did you first kind of come to codify these and to see a repeated trend that by doing these techniques, we are connecting with people, increasing communication, gaining, you know, exercising empathy without, you know, it's effective. Like, when did you first realize it?

Dino Mauro (16:38.166)
Well, the first thing, the skill set wasn't that clearly defined on the hotline, but sort of the methodology was. And the thing that astonished me was when you volunteer on a hotline, they say there's a 20-minute time limit on all calls. And as a volunteer, you're going like, 20 minutes? I mean, come on. On the movies and TV, this stuff takes hours. You hear about people talking to other people for hours. There's a story about Richard Branson in his early days.

He did a lot of volunteering and he had a crisis. I believe he had a suicide prevention line when he was just a kid, you know, teenager, late teens in England. And he talks about being on the phone overnight with people trying to help save their lives. He's doing it at the time, sort of making it up as he goes along. Now if you go someplace where they've been doing it professionally and they've boiled down to skills.

They say not only is 20 minutes enough time, but if you do it well, it'll take less time than that. And you're kind of in a state of disbelief and you start practicing the skills and it does. And, you know, that's the thing about empathy and the application of actually making people feel heard, the acceleration of communication and decision making is really astonishing. The Black Swan Method, there's key terms.

right? There's tactical empathy, the calibrated questions, seeking no accusation audit. I've got some specific questions for you on that. But when did you kind of first begin to see it as a pattern or as a trend that you can say, I'm starting to identify these questions and it's going to become what ultimately becomes the accusation audit, right?

Did you see that in, was it in something that you were trained on or was it life experience? When did you first see it? Well, yeah, I took effectively the methodology and the skill set from the hotline. And then when I get trained as an FBI hostage negotiator, the Bureau had a very definitive list of eight skills and with a clear term for each one.

Dino Mauro (19:00.018)
Oddly enough, at the time, the eight skills were just listed on one slide and there wasn't a separate block of instruction really fleshing all of them out. So when I got to the crisis negotiation unit, I took it upon myself to write an entire block of instruction just on the eight skills, definitions and examples. I'd been working pretty hard at getting better at instructing at that point in time and I put a heavy duty emphasis on instructing the skills.

So I took the list of eight and then just wrote an entire block of instruction on them. So that was a basis.

Dino Mauro (19:47.778)
we have nine skills in the Black Swan Method, they grew out of the FBI 8. And then as we applied them, we really learned that even on a list, they kind of made them all look the same. Some of them are more advanced in combinations of the others. And then in using them, I blurred out an application and the accusations audit was really born out of...

using the skills over and over again, the accusations audit is about deactivating negatives in advance. And I remember having a witness in a trial that was really unhappy with me. And before I said a word, I knew the witness was unhappy with me based on the circumstances. And so I blurted out, I basically started calling myself names and it disarmed them. And we're like, oh, wow, you can get out in front of this negativity. It inoculates it.

Right? Like the practical effect is that it basically inoculates the bad feeling that they had about you. And then you followed it with pause, with dynamic silence, as you guys have coined it. And it's very powerful. It's very effective. Yeah, it's ridiculously effective.

it's the most effective strategy. It really is. So that's what I wanted to ask you is people can learn and read about what these techniques are, right? Tactical empathy, the calibrated questions, et cetera. What is the best way? When I first read them, I was like, oh, this is a great theory, great theoretical framework. And then I saw several of your, I took your masterclass, your team's masterclass and

And the importance of practicing it really sunk in. So I started to practice it, small stakes, personal life, and then started using it at work. And then in personal life, it works. And I don't even care why I part of me, the geek in me is like, well, I want to understand the neuroscience. Why? And so I've studied that part too, but really I don't even care. Most people, it doesn't matter.

Dino Mauro (22:05.994)
Why it works? It works. And it's really effective because it's not a manipulative technique. It's a genuine way of improving communications. And what is your advice for people that first want to try and practice it? Yeah, that's perfect. And you really outlined the exact path. You're not going to trot something out in the middle of a big negotiation.

I do a lot of, we coach residential real estate agents. I happen to be in Los Angeles right now next week. We're doing a conference for residential real estate agents. I'm doing it with this guy, Steve Schull. He works with our team and Steve was a, played in the NFL. He actually played in the Super Bowl. And you're not gonna change your offense for the Super Bowl the day of the game. Right. You know, you gotta practice. You know, you're practicing when it's not an actual game.

So how do you do that in real life? The two best places to start trying these skills, small stakes interactions, everyday interactions, or if you wanna try it professionally, try it in one of two places. Try it with people that deals you're never gonna get. Because you got nothing to lose. Whatever you do for a living, you're dealing with somebody you know you're not gonna come to an agreement with, let trying to get the agreement go.

and try out the skills and see what happens. You got nothing to lose because you weren't going to get it anyway. Or conversely, if you want to try it in a deal, try it with a customer or a client or counterpart that you know you're going to get the deal and you got nothing to lose. You can't hurt either one of those situations. You can't hurt the interaction. And so then experiment with it and see what happens. That's how you develop your feel for it and your confidence.

that it could create great things. Absolutely. I mean, and it's used all of those tech techniques can be used in various stages of a sales cycle, whatever you're selling or a negotiation. You talk often about, we negotiate multiple times a day, whether we realize it or not, don't we? Yeah. Yeah, every time we're trying to get- You have some advice, don't you, about when are the best times to negotiate certain-

Dino Mauro (24:30.406)
certain types of negotiations. Yeah, that's an interesting point. What's your insight on that? Is there, like, should you begin difficult negotiations in the morning or what? Yeah, you know, mid-morning is really something that we're starting to refer to as green light time. You know, the green light for the SWAT team is when it's OK to pull the trigger, when the conditions are optimal for action. And

In very broad general terms, 10-ish, 10 is about that optimum time. Maybe a little bit earlier, but there's a lot of physiological reasons behind it. Your biorhythms, whether or not you got a good night's sleep, how challenging the day has been, whether or not you're burned out on decision fatigue. In very broad terms, both you and your counterpart are going to be at about your collaborative peak.

mid-morning and so and you're less likely to be in a bad mood. You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. You need you to be smarter, you need them to be smarter. So mid-morning is about optimal time. You mentioned decision fatigue. What is that? What is that? Every one of us can only make so many decisions in a given day and it's

sort of like how many pushups can you do in a day? You can affect it somewhat, but you really got a limit on how many decisions you can make. It's famously, I think it's why Steve Jobs only wore blue jeans and a black turtleneck because he knew that a decision would be worth millions of dollars and he's not going to blow $20 million on what shirt to wear. He looked at everything as a decision.

So you've only got so much gas in a tank, and so does your counterparts. So you want to do what you can to enhance your ability to make decisions and take your recharge moments through the course of the day. But you can only make so many decisions in a given day. So that is exactly why it makes a lot of sense why engaging with more important decisions earlier on in the day makes more sense.

Dino Mauro (26:55.07)
Otherwise, you're asking somebody after they're burnt out toward the end of the day to make a big decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can, you know... Makes perfect sense. I remember once seeing some of the... You know, there's a lot of bad advice for salespeople out there. And I remember reading like, you know, call a CEO after five o'clock because his secretary is probably gone and he's probably going to answer the phone. So you get him on the phone. And I'm like, yeah, but the guy's burnt out. You might get him on the phone, but...

You're not going to get him to commit to anything he's going to follow through on. Or she, forgive me. Our podcast is Cyber Crime Junkies. We're in the cybersecurity space, right? We do a lot of cybersecurity services, but cybersecurity is as big of a phrase as business. There's so many different aspects to it. And it's really about brands and brand protection, brand growth, things like that. There's a lot of negotiations involved in the cybersecurity space.

internal business cases within organizations so that they can get things done or whether it's between vendors or it's extortion conversations with cyber criminals. And you talk about tactical empathy. I want to ask you, you always explain about how the other person, when you're negotiating, don't look at the other person as an adversary. Look at the

context as an adversary. But my question to you is, what if you are negotiating with somebody that has no sympathy, and is truly an adversary? Like, how do you? How do you still build rapport? That way? Like, do you have any? I mean, you've done that through in during hostage negotiations? Do you do that through accusation?

audits? Does it just depend on the specific context? That's what I was curious about. Well, I'm going to take a collaborative approach to you with you, no matter who you are. You could be a Russian extortionist. You could be an al-Qaeda terrorist. You could be a trap bank robber. You've got wiring in you that's there simply because you're human. And your emotional

Dino Mauro (29:20.226)
contains a real desire to be understood, a desire to be heard. Even sociopaths want to be heard. Even sociopaths change their emotional approach to you when they feel heard. Everybody wants their autonomy preserved. People love to feel in control. You know, a lot of my negotiation approach is

based on the idea of the secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is given the other side, the illusion of control. Like if you're highly adversarial, you're highly control oriented. So I'm going to give you the illusion of control. You'll drop your guard. You'll feel good about the interaction. You'll chill out. All these subtle little nuances, regardless of how adversarial you are, ultimately put me in the driver's seat.

And I want to do it in an invisible way, not a grandstanding way, not an in your face kind of way, not a celebratory kind of way. You know, I use the term astonishing a lot. You're going to be astonished because you never know when it happened. You're just not going to see it. There's a phrase that we're even toying with a little bit called tactical empathy espionage. What's espionage? Invisible stuff. You don't know what happened and it happened.

And that's really the approach. And you're going to be vulnerable to it no matter who you are because you're wired as a human. Even if you're a sociopath, you still have the same limbic system, the same components in your emotional makeup, the amygdala, the hippocampus, all the crazy phrases that the neural anatomy people have thought up. You got them in you whether you like it or not. Maybe your compassion's been deactivated. Maybe your guilt's been deactivated.

But you still get angry. You still want to feel in control. You still want to be hurt. And you'll still feel fight or flight, right? If you experience a migdala hijack, you'll still feel that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Excellent. So there are things that are going to happen in your brain no matter who you are. And so tactical empathy is a really effective tool then because it doesn't mean sympathy, right? It doesn't mean agreement, but it means acknowledging.

Dino Mauro (31:42.766)
the other side in reaching understanding. Acknowledging their perspective and you know that that's exactly right. The real power in this is when you understand that there's a difference between empathy and agreement. And there's a difference between empathy and compassion and empathy and sympathy. Today's day and age, those words are synonym, synonyms, but in actuality they're not.

I can be completely empathic with you having utterly no sympathy for you at all, if I understand the difference. So for the listeners, the viewers that may not have read your book yet, but there's going to be links in the show notes and everybody that listens to the podcast, I hope will. Tactical empathy, how do you define it? Take empathy, completely understanding the other side. Not agreeing.

liking or disliking simply understanding. And then you got to demonstrate the understanding you have to articulate what it is that you think you understand. It's an action as much as a perception. Steven Kotler wrote repeating it through. Yeah, like repeating back to them, either through summary or through comments like it seems like you're feeling this way, or it seems like we're in this scenario, whatever that

Yeah, there you go. That's exactly right. And I was going to say, Steven Kotler, an author who's... I read all his stuff. He wrote in one book, empathy is about the transmission of information. Compassion is the reaction to that transmission. So empathy is the transmission of information. Now we put in the word tactical for a couple of reasons. One, to take this sympathy, remove it from the sympathy vernacular and to make it more usable.

And then also with tactical, even since the book has been written, the advances in neuroscience are incredible. We're tactically adapting based on things that we've learned collectively as humans about neuroscience, which is a hard science. Psychology is a soft science. Neuroscience is pretty hard science. It's electrical wiring in the brain. It's chemicals that have an impact on a brain that are released internally.

Dino Mauro (34:11.146)
They do things to us. Sciences has shown that to us. And so you want to do things tactically that have an impact on the way the brain is functioning and the way the neurons are firing within one another. And neurosciences, it's still discovering stuff. They're not completely sure about a lot of stuff, but it's much harder science and psychology is.

Dino Mauro (34:41.358)
Well that wraps this up. Thanks for joining everybody. Hope you got value out of digging deeper behind the scenes of security and cybercrime today. Please don't forget to help keep this going by subscribing free to our YouTube channel at Cybercrime Junkies Podcast and download and enjoy all of our past episodes on Apple and Spotify podcasts so we can continue to bring you more of what matters. This is Cybercrime Junkies and we thank you for joining us. Key Topics: story behind never split the difference, how to convince someone of something, how to never split the difference, new ways to convince someone of anything, secrets behind never split the difference, top techniques in never split the difference, how to ask questions better using never split the difference, chris voss, never split the difference, how to persuade someone to do something, black swan, how to become better at communication skills, how to negotiate with an enemy, best ways to make an internal business case, how to use techniques in never split the difference, modern ways to negotiate effectively, benefits of using active listening, importance of body language in communications, importance of tone of voice in communications, 


Introduction to Chris Voss and the Black Swan Method
Chris Voss's Background and the Documentary
Chris Voss's Journey into Law Enforcement
Mentors and Becoming a Hostage Negotiator
The Foundation of the Black Swan Method
Developing Tactical Empathy on a Suicide Hotline
Practicing and Applying the Black Swan Method
Optimal Timing for Negotiations
Tactical Empathy with Adversaries
Defining Tactical Empathy
The Future of Tactical Empathy and Neuroscience