Step into the world of storytelling for pleasure and intimacy as we're joined by Eleanor Hadley, the embodiment coach who transformed her passion for pole dancing into a calling that empowers others to revel in their sensuality.
We hear Eleanor's perspective on the romance genre, with its varying 'spice levels' and the intricacies of slow burn narratives, offers a fresh viewpoint for both readers and writers alike. Our discussion also illuminates the burgeoning world of narrative-driven erotic apps, the Smut Sluts book club, and why sex education should be an indispensable thread woven into the fabric of books.
Join us for an episode that promises to enlighten, inspire, and possibly transform the way you perceive pleasure in your everyday life.
Eleanor Hadley is a Certified Sex Educator, speaker and writer based on the Gold Coast, Australia. She offers 1:1 sexuality and embodiment coaching and practical sex education courses. Known for her embodied lap dance teachings, Eleanor has taught 'The Art of Seduction' on national stages including Femme Con and Sexpo.
She is a content creator and regular featured writer for various national publications where she shares her signature informative yet cheeky and relatable style with her audience. She is also the resident Pleasure Expert for sexual wellness brand, Frenchie. Eleanor also hosts popular podcast 'Sex Etc' where she shares tangible tips on how to prioritise your pleasure, enhance your sex-life and elevate your relationships.
@eleanorhadley
www.eleanorhadley.com
Book your complimentary discovery call here!
Discover what social media platform is right for you here!
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Website: https://thedaringpress.com/
Step into the world of storytelling for pleasure and intimacy as we're joined by Eleanor Hadley, the embodiment coach who transformed her passion for pole dancing into a calling that empowers others to revel in their sensuality.
We hear Eleanor's perspective on the romance genre, with its varying 'spice levels' and the intricacies of slow burn narratives, offers a fresh viewpoint for both readers and writers alike. Our discussion also illuminates the burgeoning world of narrative-driven erotic apps, the Smut Sluts book club, and why sex education should be an indispensable thread woven into the fabric of books.
Join us for an episode that promises to enlighten, inspire, and possibly transform the way you perceive pleasure in your everyday life.
Eleanor Hadley is a Certified Sex Educator, speaker and writer based on the Gold Coast, Australia. She offers 1:1 sexuality and embodiment coaching and practical sex education courses. Known for her embodied lap dance teachings, Eleanor has taught 'The Art of Seduction' on national stages including Femme Con and Sexpo.
She is a content creator and regular featured writer for various national publications where she shares her signature informative yet cheeky and relatable style with her audience. She is also the resident Pleasure Expert for sexual wellness brand, Frenchie. Eleanor also hosts popular podcast 'Sex Etc' where she shares tangible tips on how to prioritise your pleasure, enhance your sex-life and elevate your relationships.
@eleanorhadley
www.eleanorhadley.com
Book your complimentary discovery call here!
Discover what social media platform is right for you here!
Download 50 content ideas for authors here!
Website: https://thedaringpress.com/
Welcome to the Daring Author podcast, the show that takes you behind the scenes of building a successful author business, bringing you inspiring interviews and information on writing and marketing ideas for your book so that you can build an easeful, empowering and profitable author business. I'm your host, jenna Lee, owner of the Daring Press, a virtual marketing and support agency where we help indie authors who are ready to take their author business to the next level with more ease, growth and time. You can find the episode show notes and a bunch of marketing resources at thedaringpresscom. Let's become Daring authors by diving into today's episode. Hello and welcome back to another chapter of the Daring Author podcast. Today we have a very special guest joining us, eleanor Hadley. Welcome to the show.
Eleanor Hadley:Thank you so much for having me.
Jenna Lee:You're so welcome, so I'm going to read a little bit more about you so our audience can know, and then we're going to get stuck into it. So Eleanor Hadley is a certified sex educator, speaker and writer. Based on the Gold Coast in Australia, she offers one-on-one sexuality and embodiment coaching and practical sex education courses. She is known for her embodied lap dance teachings, which I have seen on your Instagram, and you're doing an amazing job. You also have taught the art of seduction on national stages like sexpo. And, yeah, you're here to talk about, like all things, writing smart, which I'm so excited about.
Eleanor Hadley:I can't wait to chat. Smart is one of my favorite topics ever.
Jenna Lee:Yes, yes, I saw I've been following you on Instagram for like years and years and I have no idea how we came to follow each other. I think it was for like the coaching sort of industry and, yeah, just mutual friends and that type of thing. But I've seen you talking a lot lately about like smart and you know you've got your own book club that you've started off up with, I think, one of your friends as well. So that's why I was like okay, we've got to get you on and talk about all things smart. So I'd love to like kick off just as a bit of a warmer into it, like how did you get into this work and what was your journey to where you are today?
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, great question. So to get into this work was a bit of an unfolding, and I think that the initial catalyst was back when I used to own a pole dancing studio. I was really, really into the whole world of pole and sensual movement and that really kind of sparked something in me, this love and desire to explore my sensuality and the edges of that. And so I ran that studio for four years and then I had an idea to create my own movement practice. That was all about sensual movement and less about the performative side of pole and more about the embodied side of moving for yourself. And so I sold the studio, started my own practice, created that movement practice and then it sort of unfolded into me, studying coaching, focusing on sensuality, studying certified sex coaching as well, and just sort of following the breadcrumbs of all of these things that interested me so much around sensuality, sex, pleasure and embodiment, and that sort of brought me to where I am today, focusing predominantly on sex education.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, I love that and yeah, it's such an important topic and, you know, especially in the like coaching industry, I find it so fascinating in terms of you know, there's a lot of coach. Like you feel like it's a saturated market, but then, like you see yourself around like oh, I don't know many people that offer that and it's a really important, not only for yourself, but like in relationships and stuff like that, and I think, yeah, it's a big topic and yeah, especially around yourself and that connection to yourself Like I've learned a lot from like watching, watching you and your tips that you put out there. Yeah, I think it's really important.
Eleanor Hadley:It's something that people don't tend to focus on or it's sort of very low on their priority list, and I think that if we bump it up a bit higher, we'll realize that it actually does filter out into every other aspect of life. You know, the more pleasure and the more that you allow yourself to explore your sensuality, the better a lot of other things in your life get, and so it's something that might seem like, oh, low priority. I'll think about that later, we can worry about that another time. But the more that you get into your own embodiment, everything else elevates from there.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, yeah, and that sort of sparks a question for me Like what do you in terms of like people that are like starting out, like where do you start with, like that embodiment and that sensuality, Like yeah, like where would you begin to like explore that?
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, so my work focuses on always beginning from the self.
Eleanor Hadley:So a lot of the time people come to me and they're like, okay, can I just get some tips?
Eleanor Hadley:And I want to just sort of have better sex with my partner and like, how do I turn them on more? And it's very externally focused on that sort of outside experience or the other. And so the first step is always like come back to self and focus on how you feel about your own pleasure, your own relationship with sexuality and sensuality, and looking at the conditioning that you may have received from society, from family, from schooling, about what it means to be a sensual person, a sexual being, and if you're allowing yourself that at all. And so it always comes back to let's start with the self, let's start with your conditioning, let's start by sort of peeling those layers away that are getting in the way of you fully accessing the pleasure potential that your body is, you know, is capable of, and stripping that back. And then we can start to focus on like, okay, cool, here's some tips and here's some like relationship advice and moving outwards to your external experience and your interpersonal experience. But it always starts with the self.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, and like confident, like and that's all about like confidence in yourself and who you are and you know loving yourself as a person, and like it might seem like, oh yeah, I do love myself, but like it's more than that, right, and like the way that you go in everyday life. If you've got that confidence and know who you are and you know dive more into that, the more that then your relationships and that outer you know that outer world can change as well. But yeah, let's get back into like writing. Writing is for stripping, All right, so you read smart, right. So I'd love to hear what you love most about it.
Eleanor Hadley:Oh I just, I just love smart so much. It's only a relatively new, newfound love. I never really read much romance or even novels. For the longest time, I spent ages reading business books and personal development and, you know, spirituality kind of things and always trying to like elevate my mind, and I got to a point where I was just sick of it. I'm sick of learning Like I'm good, I just want to read for fun and I didn't really know where to start and I discovered the world of like romance and obviously, as a sex educator like that, that's very, very fun for me.
Eleanor Hadley:I love like audio erotica, things like that. But it was just nice to discover an entire genre that did have a storyline, but it was still very, very dirty as well. And yeah, it's been such a fun process or learning journey of understanding all the different types of smart and just listening for pleasure and not because I feel like I need to like really learn something and you know constantly be growing. It's like I can grow in my pleasure. I can grow in my understanding of my sexuality as well. There's lots of really wonderful ways that smart can help to discover things about yourself and your desire, but it's also just really, really fun to read.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, and there's so many like I think it's kind of long way, like I have been in the industry for like seven, eight years in like the book author type industry and it's funny Like you used to just have like erotica or like not like normal sort of romance, but it's come such a long way that we don't have to, you know, specifically say, oh, it's erotica in a way, but if somebody like that didn't really know the sort of, especially like if you're looking at like Reverse Harrow and like we've got a lot of authors that write that, I write that myself and I think once you're stuck in it, like it's just it's so hard to get out of that Totally.
Eleanor Hadley:Oh my gosh, it's so funny when you read something that like, if you've gone to a level five spice and then you go and read a level one, you're like what's happening? Where is the spice?
Jenna Lee:Yeah it's. It's come such a long way and I think a lot of you know romance and there's a lot of different ways people add their spiciness and add the smart into their books. You know, you know some might be like really slow burn and they build up to that which I really love. I love a slow burn. I don't know about you if you like that more so than just like straight into it, like what do you sort of like that you found I love it all.
Eleanor Hadley:There's definitely times where I'm like, come on, let's get to it, like I'm waiting, but it's always worth it.
Jenna Lee:Like with a slow burn it is always worth it, and you're just like, oh good, that's that build up and that anticipation, and especially if they like hate each other and like that build up of that, that's where, yeah, I feel like you get all like you get, you know, butterflies in your tongue, oh it's fun.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, you get that little squeal of like oh yeah, oh, they're about to. Yeah, yes, I do. I do enjoy a slow burn. I think that if it's a slow burn, the spice has to be worth it though.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, some books that.
Eleanor Hadley:I've read and I'm just like that's it. Are we joking? I spent three quarters of this book just waiting and that's all I got. So I think it's got to be justified If we're reading a spicy book, like we want the spice to be spicy. So I think yeah.
Jenna Lee:But if you're building it, if you're building it up, building it up over a whole novel and it's like I don't know if you're like 50%, 70% in and they still have it like, yeah, to build that in from like a writer's perspective, you know, when it comes to like writing smart, because a lot of people, yeah, like, find it quite difficult to tap into that and, yeah, know what to sort of write and like and I don't know if you even have any tips around this or you know, but like just to, I Guess, like what, the, what the things will come up is like, oh, what if, like, I don't know you know how to write that particular thing because I haven't experienced it, or how do I get into that? I suppose mindset, or like headspace.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I've not written my own smart.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, a lot of it but not written it, and I imagine that the process would be I mean, there's a lot of fantasy Elements to smart, and I think what's really important is that you as a writer don't necessarily have had to do X, y and Z to be able to write it. Yeah, sure, it helps, you know, like method acting, but also your readers may not have Tried that either and they may not ever actually want to, and there's a real difference. I think a lot of people don't or misunderstand fantasies as like oh wow, you must want that to happen, but often it's just the idea of it that kind of turns us on. But in practice we're like oh no, I don't actually want this at all.
Eleanor Hadley:I think it's a really common thing when you're reading or, you know, watching any type of erotica, it is that almost taboo sort of nature that is the turn on itself, more so than the actual act, and so from a writer's perspective it's like cool, this is something that could be a turn on. Obviously, if you're describing things that are like positions and everything, I think like getting in your body and trying to figure it out. If you've got like a partner that can kind of like, maybe you do it be a stand-in? There's someone on Instagram I can't remember her name, but she always gets her partner To like act out scenes and I think that's so fun. But I think actually being in your body and trying it out and I'm certain that most smart authors would be doing that which would be hilarious to sort of be a little fly on the wall.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, and like even figurines too, like if you're writing and you know your partner or someone's not there or if you don't don't have a partner, like figurines to make sure that this position you can actually even get in, because it's Because in your head, like and I've done this before if it's more than one partner and you've got a couple of people in it, making sure there's enough hand, like there's not an extra this or an extra, and my editor's, like where did you say? I'm like, where did this come from? Is it like just that? Yeah, like making sure that the Dynamics actually are practical, and like what you were saying about, yeah, the different elements into it. Like if we're talking like trigger warnings and stuff like that and you know, like knife clay, necrophilia, like there's a lot of stuff.
Jenna Lee:I went to a smart lovers conference. It was over in the US last year in September and really cool because they actually had people there and talking about, you know, dom subs. They were talking about knife play, like the actual. There was people there that were sort of showing us and like educating on, like what's actually what you have to sort of put in there because it's it's a hard line, because it's a fantasy. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, you're not Gonna like. People aren't necessarily gonna try it, they might like it might be there kink and it might be their thing, but like just making sure that From an educational point, like it's fiction, but you've got to be like there's a line faces covered.
Eleanor Hadley:I think that's actually so important. I'm so happy to hear that that is um a common thing that is happening.
Eleanor Hadley:Street, because you know, I have read some things before. I'm like, oh, I don't know, as an educator, like I understand that this is fiction. Yeah, however, it is so important because we, as just a society, are so influenced by the things that we consume and you know, we see things on portrayals on TV, in movies, of like sex and sexuality, and that's why I think I actually think that SMUT is having a real moment right now because of the lack of representation of good quality sex and build up that we need, especially for those of us who have vulvas, you know, like we need that build up, and so I think that's why it's really thriving because we see such poor representations of sex on the screen, and so when we can actually really play around with the narrative and include things like consent and a little bit of education, that's so important because otherwise we're just seeing this one representation and it gets into our psyche and we think, oh, okay, I guess that's normal. I guess it's normal that you know they didn't ask if they could kiss me first, so I guess it's normal that they just went straight in and didn't do any sort of build up of arousal in my body at all, and so the more that we can, you know, sprinkle in those elements of safe sex, consensual sex and just sort of having these discussions around different topics. I think is so important because it's going to really shift the way that people experience their own sex lives and their own boundaries and agreements and sovereignty to speak up and like advocate for themselves and advocate for their pleasure and not just sort of go along with whatever might be happening.
Eleanor Hadley:I think there's a real opportunity for authors to empower their readers. Whether or not they try the exact act, the exact scene that has been played out in the novel or not, there still might be something in there. You know when I've been reading and you know authors talk about consent around condom use and they have that discussion between the characters. I'm always like yay, I'm so happy that they did that, because it is an important thing and we can't just sort of like forget about and be like, oh well, it's fiction, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, but people are at least.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, people are reading that and learning themselves and what they take from that too, even though it's like fiction Well, the same as like watching movies or TV series. Yeah, it's fiction, but you still take.
Eleanor Hadley:You still take so much from it right, exactly, and the thing is as well when it comes to sexuality. We're not learning from from high school. We're not learning from our teachers, our parents, our family. Very, very, very good sex education and so smart, of course, is not being given the expectation to educate and be a sex education tool. But if you have the opportunity to sprinkle in a little bit, why not?
Eleanor Hadley:You know you can do it in a great way. You can do it in a creative way which also will inspire people to go oh, consent isn't a scary topic Like, oh, asking about condom use isn't a scary thing. It can be sexy and fun and in the moment and it's just part of it. That's normal. You know so because our sex education in general and high school and in the world we don't talk about sex nearly as much. I talk about all day, but a lot of people don't talk about sex. Very often we're not getting that. You know it's like if you're reading a book about cars, you've had a driving lesson before. You've had someone teach you how to drive a car. This is exactly what you do and you have to pass a test. We don't have that with sex, right? So if we're reading a book about it. It's so helpful to sprinkle in those moments where you can educate yourself a little bit and feel empowered as a result.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, yeah. And like, even like before care, after care, like those you know, sprinkling daddy, yeah, we all love that.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, oh, it's just so nice because it's like so much of this is bare minimum and the fact that we're like, wow, like he didn't leave immediately yeah, some assholes do, but that's just. If it's the character, look like we can play it. Yeah, but it's just amazing that so often we are just gobsmacked like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they did this or they did that, when really it is bare minimum. And so I think just having that as standard, certain elements around before care, after care, safe sex consent, all these things if it's appropriate, within the theme, of course, but I think it's helpful and it's so empowering for so many of us.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, and even like the build up and not just like full, like just jump into the sex, like the foreplay before that and building that out and her having pleasure. Not just all about the guy or if it's mmf, it like there's so many different elements to that, but like just your, like that self pleasure part of it.
Jenna Lee:I definitely yeah, I have seen like a lot more of that than just oh, it's just like it's just sex, let's just jump into the sex. It's like no, the build up is what actually. That's the turn on. Yeah, and so you know your question earlier of.
Eleanor Hadley:You know, do you like the books that are a slow burn or like straight into it and look when it is straight into it, like page two? Sometimes it can be jarring, and I think that those authors who do go straight into it, the ones that really hit the mark, are the ones that have built something, some kind of suspense, some sort of buildup. Even if it is quite a quick one, they've actually inserted that, whereas if it's straight into it and you're not invested enough, yeah, emotionally, at the emotional connection.
Jenna Lee:You don't know it yet.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah, and I think that there's such a misunderstanding around the genre of smart and erotica and if I'm speaking in the binary, so many men will be like, oh, if you're just reading porn, it's like well, kind of, but when you think of porn, you think immediately they're fucking. Yeah, and there's no context, no, nothing. But when we read it, it's all about that buildup. It's all about how do the characters interact and why are we invested in them actually having sex and then, of course, the sex itself. But we need that buildup and that's why I think smart is having such a moment, because we've been really undercated to, particularly as women, in the past with any type of pornography. Visual stuff doesn't tend to appeal as much for us, whereas the written and the buildup it tickles that sort of sepio-sexual part of a lot of people as well, where it's like, oh, I'm invested in this and I'm excited and I'm building up this arousal. And it's not all about just like, give me a scene out of nowhere.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, and that's so true, Like a lot of the porn it was made for men and that's who was consuming it, and even the thought of me even watching porn. I'm just like it's just not. But give me a book where it's a buildup and that I take pleasure from that, and even the audio book part that you were talking about. There's some really cool apps Like I think it's like Dipsy or something.
Eleanor Hadley:Big.
Jenna Lee:Quinn, yeah, like Dory's a really cool of like playing out type of scenes and just not that visual part of it. Like it's quite interesting because, like, if you're watching porn it's a visual, but I don't know there's something about like an actual book reading it and you imagining it or someone talking to you and like that.
Eleanor Hadley:Absolutely, and I think a lot of us really do require that mental stimulation. Yeah, because, like, the brain is the biggest sex organ, right, if we're not feeling this turn on and this arousal, it's not necessarily going to translate physically. Sometimes it can. Sometimes you're like, oh wow, I'm like horny and I don't know why. Yeah, but a lot of the time, particularly for those who lean towards SMUT, we need the mental stimulation in order to have the physical arousal as well. So turn my mind on and then the rest of my body will follow.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, yeah, so cool and I'm so glad that that that is becoming a normal thing. And it's not like it is. It depends on the circle you're in. Like it was interesting. I had like a catch up with my partner and his friends and they're like oh, so you were just right. Like like what you said before, oh, you're just right. Porn. And it's like, no, it's so much more. Like they just don't get it, but that's OK too. Like some, you know people in your life might not get it and that's OK. But the people that do get it especially if you're like writing it or reading it, you know only you have to get it. And the people that do get it like there's a whole community out there that wants like that you know, need that and appreciate that, and it's yeah, it's, it's huge and I love how far it's come. And it's, yeah, I love it. Tell me more about your book club too. Yeah.
Eleanor Hadley:So my book club is called Smut Sluts, a spicy book club, and essentially it's all within a group chat, essentially on Telegram, and we've got different sections and channels.
Eleanor Hadley:So we've got a general chat where we just sort of chat all things smut, and then I've got five different spice level channels.
Eleanor Hadley:So we've got the level one, two, three, four and five and I've got descriptions there where I sort of lay out like level one means this like very, very low, fade to black, kind of more romance style. Then we got level five, which is like probably littered with trigger warnings like very, very explicit, not as much plot going on, but you know it still holds. And so within those different channels all of the members can share their recommendations. So they share a photo of the book they're, they choose which spice rating is suitable, they give a little bit of a description, some key themes and their thoughts, and it's just a really, really fun place to find new recommendations so that you can get learn what type of smut you like most and share the books that you've read. So I've shared a whole bunch of my recommendations, but there's still so many more to go in there and so it's kind of this growing community where I really invite people to actively share their suggestions so that other people can find more as well.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, I love that. And how can people all join?
Eleanor Hadley:that you can join that through my Instagram. I've got my link in my bio there.
Jenna Lee:Awesome and we'll have that in the show notes too. But to like finish off, any other, like you know, sex education tips you'd like to share with you know authors listening. I know you've shared a lot already, but if there's any like main takeaways, key points, yeah.
Eleanor Hadley:Yeah. So I think the main things, like we were focusing on before, is really allowing yourself to sprinkle in those moments of discussion around consent, around safe sex, around preferences, negotiations, around like what you do and don't want to do, aftercare, like really including them is going to be such an empowering thing for your readers, and also like one little gripe that I have and I don't know exactly how to go about this any other way, necessarily, but I think what gets me is when they have the discussion about like oh, should we not use protection? And of course, you know most people are like I don't want to use protection, this feels so much better. Blah, blah, blah. And then they always go oh, I'm on the pill and I'm clean. Okay, several issues I don't like, though I clean. When we're talking about like STIs, I think it insinuates that if you do have an STI, that you're dirty, which is untrue, it's just. It's just like having a cold, you pick things up, and so that kind of terminology I think could go or could be done more creatively.
Eleanor Hadley:Also, the idea that like, oh, I'm on the pill. It insinuates that like that's the only way that you can have safe sex and be, you know, the best contraception, and I have very so like several thoughts about that. I don't know exactly, in a novel setting, how you're going to go about it differently if you really want to do the like condom free sex but I just I would like to offer that, as you know, maybe there's a different way than saying I'm on the pill and I'm clean. Like we can do it better. Yeah, how can we do it better? Tell me, okay. So obviously there's different methods for contraception. Not that I want people to to just read a line in a smart book and then try, because like that could be dangerous.
Eleanor Hadley:But just maybe having some discussions about like I'm using a different form of protection, like a diaphragm, or I know where I'm out in my cycle, or again, I don't know how much we want to to potentially misinform people either, but I think that just always being like I'm on the pill is an ideal. And then discussions around STIs as well. You know, maybe like oh yeah, I had a test recently. Or like let's get a test and then we'll like next time we'll go condom free, and that that kind of discussion around agreements I think could be really great when it comes to STIs as well, because sometimes it's just like, oh yeah, like I'm clean. I'm clean, and I think that that terminology can feel disempowering because you know it more than likely. Well, no, not even more than likely like 100%.
Eleanor Hadley:You've got people reading your books who do have STIs. Whether it be like an ongoing thing like herpes, which is incredibly common and really just like as common as having a cold, and it's not something that is necessarily like the worst thing ever, you can manage it very, very easily. And so I think that being aware of these kind of things is going to be just like nice figure reader, if you're a reader of someone who does carry the herpes virus right, and they might be like, oh okay, cool, like I'm not, I'm not the dirty one you know like just being considerate in those ways, yeah, I love that.
Jenna Lee:I love that you brought that up. And, like for authors that are looking for like more on like sex education and stuff like that, where would you like recommend them to go? Or do you have resources yourself? I know you've got great courses and stuff like that, so where would you recommend?
Eleanor Hadley:like oh yeah, absolutely. So I definitely have, you know, my own courses around tongue tactics. So blowjobs and eating pussy I've got got a lot of info around that. If you're looking for information around STIs and safe sex, I would highly recommend a friend of mine called Dr Isabella Batura. I can share with you her details. She's an OBGYN and a sex coach, so she sort of blends a lot of that. So if you're wanting to learn a little bit more about the safe sex side of things, really, really helpful.
Jenna Lee:Yeah, I love that and we'll. Yeah, I'll get the link off you and we'll add that into the show notes. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on. This is going to be so good for our authors listening and I've taken so much from it and I know that they will too, so I appreciate you coming on.
Eleanor Hadley:Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for letting me talk about all things smart.
Jenna Lee:You're so welcome. We'll see you in the next chapter. Thanks for listening to the Daring Author podcast. If you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review, and if you are ready to grow your author business with the support of the Daring Press book in your free discovery, call today before places fill up. We'll see you in the next Daring episode.