002. Nancy Ray: Redefining Success in Different Seasons of Life and Business

While starry-eyed and hopeful may describe 21-year old Nancy Ray fresh off her photography degree, equipped to run a business, price her services, and navigate the “business side of running a business” … well, I guess even photography school doesn’t teach you how to do that!

In today’s interview Nancy shares her 12 year journey in the photography business, how she built a 5 person team, and brought in multiple-six figures of revenue per year; navigating massive growth all while becoming a mama of 4! Her story will inspire all of us to sit down and define what success looks like to us in this season and give us the courage to pivot as needed to make sure the business we are building aligns with the life we want to live.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/nancy-ray

Transcript

Nancy Ray: (00:00)
Nobody was telling me, Hey, this is a great time for you to like redefine what success is for you. All I had in my head was like, grow, do, earn, more. And I felt like I couldn't because my heart and my emotions were like, Hey, I, I, I, I do love and value those things to an extent, but like right now, man, there's this tiny person who has really changed everything for me. And so, um, what I wanna shout from the rooftops is that there are seasons to your business. There are seasons to your life and it is so important and so good to hit the reset button on what success looks like for you.

Shanna Skidmore: (00:46)
You're listening to Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast episode two. Today, I'm hanging out with Nancy Ray, founder of Nancy Ray Photography and host of the Work and Play with Nancy Ray podcast. Funny story, I have followed Nancy and her husband Will for years. And to be honest, at first, I was quite intimidated by them. Back in 2014, my first full year as a business owner, there weren't a lot of people talking about finance in the creative industry, but will and Nancy did. So I did something completely outta my comfort zone and instead of secretly stalking them behind the scenes, I actually reached out and introduced myself. One very afraid-to-hit-send email opened the door to one of my most valued friendships today. Nancy and I had the pleasure of finally meeting in real life at a conference years later. And she is exactly the genuine, real, warm, bighearted, ambitious, driven, and humble people I always believe she would be. I am beyond honored for Nancy to share her story with us today. We talk navigating different seasons in business when life demands are big. Hello, mamahood. Wrestling with ambition versus contentment. And of course the numbers. Let's dive in.

(01:55)
Hey, it's Shanna. And this is consider the wildflowers the podcast. For the past 15 plus years. I've had the honor to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world. As a former fortune 100 financial advisor turned business consultant. I have a unique opportunity to see the real behind the highlight reel. I'm talking profit and loss statements, unpaid taxes, moments of burnout, and those of utter victory, or as my husband says, the content everyone is wondering, but not many are talking about. And now I'm bringing these private conversations to you. Hear the untold stories of how industry leaders, founders, and up and coming entrepreneurs got their start, the experiences that shaped them, and the journey to building the brands they have today. Stories that will inspire and reignite, encourage to redefine success, and build a life and business on your own terms. Welcome wildflower. I'm so glad you're here.

(02:49)
Hey Nancy, I'm so excited to have you on the show today and let's just dive right in. Will you just take everybody back to life before you even started your business? Like, what was your background? How did it all get started?

Nancy Ray: (03:03)
Well, thank you Shanna, for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Um, you're just such a dear friend and we're so like-minded, and I can't wait to just share all the things. Um, yeah, so goodness way back when I feel like I was so young when I got started, I was still in college. Um, I was 21 and I was studying photography at Appalachian state University. I was engaged to be married. Yes. I was like a child bride. We got married when I was 21, Will was 22. Um, and I started my business in January of that year. And then we got married in June of that year. So it was just, I feel like the beginning of my adult life. Um, I was a junior in college, so I just kind of dove in and it started because I was actually turned down for a nanny position and I had applied because it was in the middle of the recession and I did not know what I was doing. And it was just the greatest blessing I remember Will was working on night shift at Walgreens, as a manager, he had just graduated college. It was the only job he could get in Boone, which is where we lived at the time. So I could finish school. And I had applied for this nanny job and she turned me down and I was devastated, um, because it was like the only way I figured I could make money fresh outta college. And I woke him up. He was asleep in the middle of the day cuz he was working nights. And I just sobbed saying like, I don't know how I'm gonna make money. He was like, it's okay. Like it's okay, we're living on, you know, my income it'll work out. And at that point that was really the biggest blessing of my life because it caused me to dive headfirst into my photography business.

Nancy Ray: (04:43)
And so, um, I just learned as I went and even though I had a college degree in photography, it did not teach me anything about shooting weddings. And that's what I wanted to do. I knew all the technical things in fashion photography and studio lighting. I did not know even what lens to use for a wedding. And so I started just soaking up everything I could. I joined photography forums. I did lighting workshops. I drove down to Atlanta to do a weekend photography, kind of intensive to learn everything I could. And I just took every single job that I could find. Any wedding, any family, engagement session. I remember photographing cheesecakes for this girl. Anything that came my way. I was like, yes, I will do it. And I just put all of that money into my business checking account and just started building, building it up while we lived off of Will's income.

Nancy Ray: (05:39)
And I graduated college, we got married and that trend of me just saying yes to every job and getting as much experience as I could, um, pretty much lasted for the next like two or three years. And I reinvested all of that money back into photography equipment back into branding, back into my website, um, back into learning. So the first, really like two years, I don't think I made any money. Um, but that year three is when things really started to change for me. And um, I got like fully booked out and was actually making money. It was super exciting. So life before business really was just baby Nancy, like in high school and college and trying to figure things out. Um, and then I just kind of learned as I went and threw myself completely into it.

Shanna Skidmore: (06:30)
When you, I, I had no idea, I love this conversation. I just had no idea about all this. So when you were going to college and getting your photography degree, like what did you hope that would, what was the vision for that? Did you think you would own your own company or did you think you would work for someone? What were your thoughts?

Nancy Ray: (06:50)
Yeah, that was a great question. No, I don't think any of that was really materialized in my mind. I just knew that in my small graduating class of like eight or nine people who were majoring in photography, I was the only one who wanted to do weddings. And I felt very out of place there. And a lot of the other people wanted to be photojournalist or fashion photographers in New York. And, um, I was like, I just really love weddings. Um, I remembered back four years before that, to my sister's wedding and just was fascinated and loved her photographer so much. So, no, I, I don't know what my hope was. I just knew I wanted to do it. And I remember there was this really defining moment for me in college. I was a freshman and I was thinking of becoming a teacher. I was thinking of, uh, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I was praying a lot through it. And I really felt like I was standing in my dorm room one day after just months and months of praying about what I should do. I felt like the Lord say, listen, you really only have one shot at this life. Why not do something that you love? I always joke and say that the Lord told me Yolo,

Nancy Ray: (07:56)
But truly it was like this moment, like I, why not do something I love, like, I don't like the idea of being a teacher, but it felt like a safe option that other people were telling me I should do. And I always loved photography and creativity. And so at that moment I decided to transfer at App to major in photography, but the major didn't really give me what I needed either. So I just said, I just am gonna go after the thing I love and wanna do and find a way for myself. And so I just started taking weddings and shooting weddings and those first weddings were horrible. I did such a terrible job, Shanna, but it was the experience I needed. And I, I only charged like $400 for my first wedding. So it's like, they knew they weren't getting the best of the best. Right. But yeah, I, I didn't have a plan. I just knew the work that I wanted to be doing. And I just kept saying yes to that. And I, I guess I just let it build itself and it did. And I did end up owning my own company and I did end up falling in love with the business side of things, which I never thought of myself as like a business person or a numbers person. I always thought of myself as a creative person, but I loved that stuff. I started reading business books and learning about the numbers and I just, it lit a fire in me. So I, it kind of transformed my business from this solopreneur. I'm shooting weddings by myself to then I brought my husband along to then I hired a team of photographers that I trained. Um, and my business grew, um, from there and I ran that photography business for 12 years and it was so fun and so fulfilling for me.

Shanna Skidmore: (09:21)
I think it's pretty amazing Nancy. I don't think you hear, uh, I don't hear as many people now that have a passion and turn it into the business. Like you knew you wanted to be a wedding photographer. And I wonder what the breakdown is of like how many people know what they wanna do. And then they make a business from it versus like me, I just kind of found a niche that I was really great at and not, you know, of course I love it, but I didn't envision owning a business or becoming an entrepreneur either, but it's where my career path took me. Does that make, I just think it's really cool that you wanted knew what you wanted to do. The business was kind of secondary to that. I just think that's so neat. Okay. So tell, walk me through, you mentioned those first couple years, you just kind of took on every job, had no idea with pricing, walk me through, like, how did you start figuring all of that out?

Nancy Ray: (10:12)
Yeah. So the first few years, like I said, I just got as much work as I could. And then I quickly realized I'm gonna need a plan for this money. Like, how is this, how is this gonna materialize into a real job? And it's funny because you probably know this about us Shanna, but, um, my husband will and I are big Dave Ramsey people. We got a hold of his, um, financial peace university when we were engaged and really kind of took hold of that. And that set a trajectory for us in our finances to eliminate debt and just get outta debt as quickly as possible, um, to live on less than we made and to build wealth as like our ultimate goal. And so what we did, we decided that we were gonna live off of my husband's income, which wasn't a lot at the time, like I said, he was an overnight manager at Walgreens. I think he started out at like 37,000 a year 38, something around there. Yeah. And anything that I ended up making, we just put in its own account. I mean, obviously I had like the business operating account, but then when it was time to pay me, we would just take a big chunk of it at the end of the year and pay ourselves. And we would put it either towards debt or towards the house. And so it wasn't super organized. Like I didn't have a great plan. I knew that I was setting aside money for taxes and then I was setting aside money, you know, reinvesting it back into the business and then anything left over, we just put towards our big financial goals and we lived off of his income for our life. Yeah. And that was kind of our M-O for at least probably five or six years.

Shanna Skidmore: (11:59)
So, yeah. Nancy, okay. Sorry to interrupt you. I'm so interested cuz this is a question I get all the time. How, how did you feel? It sounds like you took kind of one withdrawal a year. Yeah. And was it just based on your comfort level or like how did you come up with what you felt comfortable taking out? Yeah.

Nancy Ray: (12:17)
So at the end of the year, we looked at my bank account, my business checking account and said, okay, all expenses are paid. We have this much set aside for taxes. Um, what kind of cushion of cash do we wanna leave in the account? And then anything after that, we just transferred and took home. We took it to our, you know, personal checking account and we would apply that we would tithe on it. We would give some to our church after we took it home and then we would put the rest towards our house. So I, I love numbers. I know you love numbers. Usually what that looked like was I would leave about $20,000 in my business checking and then anything above and beyond that we'd earmark some for taxes and then we would take the rest home. And so the first two years of business, I didn't take anything home, everything I just left in there to reinvest that third year, I ended up taking -- These are really rough numbers, but I think around like 30,000 home. Was like, wow, that's like a salary. Like, you know, about 30,000. The next year. It was like around 50,000. And then the next year after that, I think it was like 60,000 something like that. Those are rough numbers, maybe not, but it was growing. It was growing, right? Yeah. I think it was like 30,000, maybe 45,000 and maybe 60. I don't know. Anyway, bottom line is we were able to take that chunk of money and pay off our house in two and a half years. That was our big goal. Was we, we were completely outta debt. And after we, you know, lived in our tiny apartment, we moved from Boone back home to Raleigh. My husband took a job as a youth pastor. So still very you know, not the greatest salary in the world. It was great. It was, it met our needs and then everything else that we made for two and a half years that, or that I made, we put directly onto our mortgage and paid off our house in two and a half years at 25 and 26.

Shanna Skidmore: (14:06)
Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, was that, you know, I know Dave Ramsey, you guys really adhered to his philosophy of reducing debt. And so did you guys sit down and say, this is our ultimate goal. Like, this is what we want with our finances. How did you make that your goal?

Nancy Ray: (14:23)
Yeah, we did. And so Dave Ramsey has a plan where it's the there's seven baby steps. And so you eliminate debt, you build up an emergency fund. Um, we could skip a couple steps because we didn't have kids. So there's no college savings. And, but we would invest, you know, in our retirement fund. And then baby step six is to pay off your house. So we got there pretty quickly to baby step six. And that was our goal. We had a chalk wall in our kitchen and we had these big circles that I drew on it and each circle represented $5,000 towards the house. And so we had, when we moved into the house, we put down a big down payment. I think the house cost us 160,000. It was a townhouse, very affordable for us at that time we put down 50 on it and then we had a balance of 110 left and we just started like just yeah.

Nancy Ray: (15:11)
Throwing money at it. And so I did like a big chunk at it at the end of the year. And then we would, we had these big circles, $5,000. Every time we could put $5,000 towards the house we would, and we would cross off a big circle. And that was our big countdown. And we had a huge celebration when we paid it off, but that was our big goal. I mean, we had laser focus. We lived on a very tight budget and we knew that's what we wanted to do. Um, and we, it was, it was wild and so crazy when we actually hit that final payment, we went to the bank, we had a big day of it. We went to the movies, bought a large popcorn, did all the things we never allowed ourselves to do during the years we were paying it off. We went to dinner, we went to Panera, this is my favorite. We went to Panera for lunch and we each ordered our own lunch because we always used to order you pick two and we would share it because we felt like we could never get our own lunch. So all these little things we did, we went out to dinner. It was the funnest day ever to celebrate. Um, but yeah, that's kind of how we went about it.

Shanna Skidmore: (16:07)
I love Nancy what you're saying. Um, just talking about having that goal in front of you. And I know not everybody listening's goal is to be debt free or to pay off their home. They might have other goals, but I just always say, um, like awareness is the key to change. And so if you keep that big vision in front of you and really move towards it, I was wondering, was there ever a point maybe after you paid off your house where you thought, should I be taking a salary? Did that ever cross your mind or tell me about that?

Nancy Ray: (16:37)
It's so funny because I that I think was always in the back of my mind, like, am I official? Is this, is this a real business? I'm not actually paying myself every month, but I knew it was because the amount that we'd take home at the end of the year was definitely the amount of a salary. I think for me, because we had committed to live off of Will's income. It just wasn't necessary. And so it just felt like, okay, I'm just gonna, we're gonna do it this way. This way works for us. However, there did become a point where, um, after I got pregnant with my first child, um, we decided and felt like God was telling us it was time for him to step away from the youth pastor position that he was in at our church. And so then it got real to us and I was like, I do need a salary. This is something we need to do. He's about to be without a job. I'm about to have a baby. Shanna. This was the scariest step of faith for us ever, because I was like, of course I said, okay, as long as God doesn't ask me to provide for our family, right. When I'm supposed to have a baby, I'll be good. Well, of course that was like the biggest step of faith. That is exactly what he asked us to do. And so Will, wasn't bringing in an income, um, as I was about to go on maternity leave. And so we had to kind of quickly say, I need to take stuff home every month. We need to figure this thing out. And thankfully we did. And at that point I had hired a team and they were also bringing in more money, more, you know, money for the business.

Nancy Ray: (18:15)
They were also able to run the business while I took a maternity leave. So nothing actually stopped, which was such a blessing because they were still shooting weddings while I was home with the baby. Um, but it was, it was scary because I wasn't used to having that weight on my shoulders. I was always able to take risks in my business and kind of do what I wanted per se, with the finances and yes, you know, reinvest and kind of do it was like fun, you know, it's fun. And it, it felt like a challenge for me. Of course I wanted to be profitable. I wanted to make money, but it was not the pressure of like, okay, I have to provide for our family. Now I will say what a blessing it was to not have a mortgage during that. That was like a huge safety for, for us and for me, I felt like I can provide for food. We can provide for living expenses, you know, but, um, it ended up that will ended up getting a job, you know, about a year later. Um, and it turned out to be a huge blessing, but yeah, it was, it was kind of a crazy time, but that was really when I feel like I put on my big girl pants was like, I'm taking home and, and kind like, we're, I'm gonna pay myself a salary and then we can do bonuses at the end of the year. And we kind of changed my mindset about business finances at that point when I kind of had to.

Shanna Skidmore: (19:28)
Yeah. I think that's such a good point. You know, from day one of my business, I had to get paid and in some ways that's scary. Yeah. In a lot of ways that's scary, you know, but at the same time it forces you to figure it out. Um, and I think, you know, I see so many people in both situations where some people have to make an income. Other people don't have to necessarily make an income. And I think it does change how you think about your business finances and how you spend your money.

Nancy Ray: (19:55)
And it wasn't as scary as I thought it would be. Once I started doing it, I was like, oh, this makes more sense. like, this makes sense we should be doing this. Um, but I don't know when, when you do it a certain way for a really long time. Yes. It's a scary step to take, but once you just start taking that step, it makes it less scary. You're like, I can, I can do this. We can do this. This makes more sense.

Shanna Skidmore: (20:18)
I don't know if you remember how you, or if you wanna share, but I would be interested. I get this question a lot. Like, how did you determine that monthly amount? Was it based on, you just knew your financial need from what Will was previously making and you knew you could cover that? Or how did you, you know, that's it, that is like you said, a big responsibility to start taking that money every single month feels very different than having it just one time a year.

Nancy Ray: (20:45)
Absolutely. And for a seasonal business, like mine was, you know, May, June were really high months of income, October, you know, September, October, November, really high months of income. And then not a lot in January, February, March, because it's seasonal, um, with weddings. And so, yeah, I think what we did and will is very financially minded and I'm grateful for that, but we just sat down and looked at what I was bringing in every single month. And we, we laid out our budget, our finances, everything. We, we took our bank statements and looked at the last 12 months and said, okay, what, what did I bring in every month, over the last 12 months? And that was a big comfort for me because I just hadn't. I had been so focused on earning the money. I hadn't really been paying attention to the actual numbers. I kind of let Will manage that part of things.

Nancy Ray: (21:35)
But when I sat down and looked and said, okay, we're making this much money a month. And my lowest month, we're making, um, you know, a few thousand dollars, my highest months were making, you know, with several weddings booked like over $20,000, I'm like, okay, I can take home 2,500 or $3,000 a month. Like we're gonna be fine because it will even out in the end. So we kind of, because my, my business was so seasonal, it helped me to look at it over the course of 12 months to make sure I would still have the cushion that I felt like I needed to run the business and to pay taxes. Those are always my two like big things I really wanna make sure I have. Um, and, and I did, and once I saw that, it gave me a lot of peace and I was like, yeah, we can totally do this.

Shanna Skidmore: (22:20)
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love this. Okay. Run me back. If you will, Nancy, how your offers progressed through the years. Um, you said it really sounds like it kind of clicked year three. And then when did you start building your team? Just walk me through how your offers changed, how your pricing changed, if you don't mind sharing, and then when you decided to bring on your team.

Nancy Ray: (22:42)
Yeah. So I remember there is this one really defining moment for me. I was still working kind of by myself. Um, it was before I hired my team. So I started hiring interns and I hired my first associate photographer. When I was about five years into my business. It was around 2012, 2013. I started my business in 2008, but before that happened about a couple years before that, um, I had a mentor of mine kind of look over my pricing and helped me rework what I was offering. And she looked at my pricing and I think a lot of creatives, we struggle with this, especially as we're, you know, getting our experience, getting our work under our feet, feeling confident. I just had really underpriced myself. And she looked at my pricing and said, you need to be charging a lot more than this and you need to start now.

Nancy Ray: (23:36)
And I was like, okay, I'm immediately sweaty. This is really scary. I don't think I can do this. Like, this is, you know, I'm used to grinding. I'm used to doing as much work as I possibly can. And I want a safe number where I know people will book me. Yeah. And she was like, no, like your work is better than that. And if you don't start charging more, like you're gonna, you're gonna burn out. This is not sustainable. And so I sat down with her, she helped me make a whole new pricing, PDF, restructured, everything with me. And then, and I had hired her for like branding consulting, but she also was like doing some business coaching for me. And it just was the kind of like pat on the back or kick in the pants that I needed to change it. And so there was a pretty big lull where I raised my prices. We did my website launched it and I just waited and it felt like crickets because I was like, oh, I'm used to booking so much more. But that was so significant because then the booking started coming. And I was like, flabbergasted that someone would book me for these prices, but that was a huge defining moment for me. And then, so that was probably like year three and a half or four of my business. And then I started hiring associate photographers around year five and I hired interns to help me because I was just so overwhelmed with the amount of work. And so that started switching, um, my mindset from, you know, my money, my revenue is tied to the services that I can provide to what can my business do?

Nancy Ray: (25:12)
Let me view this as a business. And it's not just me, but it's also my associate photographers. And so I ended up hiring two wedding associate photographers and a family photographer. And that's also when I started my family. And so it was, it was just a lot all at once. Shanna, it was just a lot of growth, a lot of growth all at once, but it was beautiful. And I really enjoyed working as a team and changing my mindset from everything is tied to me to like, how can I invest in this as a business, which was really neat. And so, yeah, from years like five, all the way through year 12, I had a team that I would work with and it was a couple wedding photographers, a family photographer, and then three seasonal interns. We had an intern spring summer and fall just to help keep everything going.

Shanna Skidmore: (25:59)
That's amazing. Did you hire your associates because you wanted to be able to take on more or you wanted to offer different price points for clients?

Nancy Ray: (26:07)
I wanted to offer a higher price point for me and I wanted to work less because I was having babies. Yeah. I was ready to start my family. And so, um, for me, when I had Millie, um, my oldest, I knew that I wanted to be more available, um, as a mom. And so yeah, it, it started this kind of new view of my business where I kept asking myself, how can I lead well and also work less. So my prices were priced much higher than my associate photographer's prices. and that's what helped book them more and book me less, but also continue like a, a solid revenue plan. And so I went from shooting 22 to 23 weddings a year down to like 10. And then eight and then seven. And it was, it was great.

Shanna Skidmore: (26:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So speak, this is such a good transition. How did your business start to change or how do you find this kind of harmony or balance as your life shifts, seeing those shifts in your business as well?

Nancy Ray: (27:15)
Yeah. This is my favorite question. I feel like I'm so passionate about this question and finding what works and what success looks like in every season, because I feel like I wish someone sat me down and told me this, like what I was hearing in the business world all while I was building my business is grow. Do. Earn. More revenue, more social media, more blog posts, like more recognition. And I, if I'm honest, Shanna, I loved it. I loved the business side of it. And I was pretty good at that. Like I built something really cool and I really enjoyed it. And I wanted to honor the Lord in what I was doing. And it just was so exciting for me. And then I got pregnant and had Millie and you know, that your life flips upside down when you welcome a precious little one into your heart and your home. And I feel like nobody was telling me, Hey, this is a great time for you to like redefine what success is for you. Yeah. All I had in my head was like, grow, do earn, more. And I felt like I couldn't because my heart and my emotions were like, Hey, I, I, I, I do love and value those things to an extent. But like right now, man, there's this tiny person who has really changed everything for me. And so, um, what I wanna shout from the rooftops is that there are seasons to your business. There are seasons to your life and it is so important. And so good to hit the reset button on what success looks like for you regularly. Like regularly, you know, at least once a year, if not twice a year, you need to, if not every quarter, you need to have a conversation with yourself and say is what I'm doing in my work and my life lining up with my values and lining up with this season of my life? So for me, practically, when I had Millie, I, I dropped down from working basically like six or seven days a week to I set those boundaries. I took a four month maternity leave and then I did four days a week and I had a nanny. And then when I got pregnant again and had my second baby, I was like, I wanna work less. Let's do three days a week. And that's kind of when I started like the education side of my business, and then I got pregnant very quickly after that with baby number three and was like, okay, now I wanna do two days a week. And that's when God kind of started laying on my heart. Like maybe you shouldn't be running this business anymore. And we can talk about that. But ultimately I closed my business after 12 years and now I have my fourth baby and I'm working one day a week in a totally different business. I mean, it's the same. It was kind of born outta my old business, but it's different. And I, to me, success has, has really changed from, you know, hundreds of thousand dollars in revenue and running a team and having all of this following. And you know, this reputation in, in my area to what is success right now in this season with four little kids. I, those two things to me, I, they didn't work together because it was too much of my time and energy focused on my business when I wanted more of my time and energy focused at home. So resetting success, redefining success, knowing that it's not just attached to numbers, you know, revenue dollars or, or whatever it is, it's your life is so much more than that. I, I just, yeah, I'm so passionate about redefining success as your seasons change. And knowing that success looks different in different seasons and it looks different for, for different people. And that's a good thing like that is, it's not just like, oh, that's okay. You can do that. That is good. That is exactly what you should be after.

Shanna Skidmore: (31:15)
Will you talk Nancy and I, and I know you have a whole podcast episode on the rule of life, but will you talk about how you learned this defining your season and, and the rule of life conversation?

Nancy Ray: (31:29)
The rule of life, if you don't know what that means, you can go listen to my whole podcast episode about it, but basically it's this idea of setting rhythms or, or habits in your life to redirect your heart back to the things, um, that matter the most to you. And, um, I'm a believer, I'm a person of faith. I follow Jesus. And so I know not everyone listening, um, is like that or has shares my same faith. And that is okay, but that's kind of the, the view that I'm looking at this through. So everything to me comes back to my faith. And so my rule of life, I, I set up daily rhythms. I set up monthly rhythms. I set up even yearly rhythms or celebrations that redirect my heart back to God over and over again. And those that core value for me is the thing that guides me. And it has guided me through all these different seasons because my goal and my definition of success is obedience to the Lord in finding fulfillment in him first. And so this idea of a rule of life is so beautiful because if you're anchored in that way, if you're anchored and you're redirecting your heart and your mind back to faith and, and back to the Lord over and over again, he has been faithful in those rhythms. And in those moments to guide me and to show me what success really looks like, so that I'm not getting so caught up in what the world is shouting at me, that I miss, that I miss the things that are important in my life. And so that can look like a morning routine or an evening routine, or, um, just like quieting your heart for a few minutes outside. And those are like some daily things that you can practice or practicing a weekly, um, Sabbath where you just completely take a day off and just enjoy the Lord and your family and just rest regularly. And, um, it can look like, you know, setting holidays, having certain traditions for holidays, where you're just redirecting your mind and your heart, um, back to the things that are important and you, and you build traditions, you build habits, you build things into your life to do that. And you kind of follow that trajectory, not like with rules, not like legalistic, not like this is what I have to do, but mainly just because I'm aware of myself and I get distracted and I get swept up quite a bit and just all the needs of life that I have to have this rule of life to kind of keep me grounded and coming back. So that has been such a anchoring practice for me. Yes. Do I do it perfectly? No, no. I've got four little kids. Are you crazy? No, I don't. But just having it in place is like, oh yes, thank you. Let we come back to this.

Shanna Skidmore: (34:15)
I like how you call it. Not the rule of life. Cuz that sounds so strict, but the rhythms of life. Yes. That's what you talk about in your podcast. And yeah, I like just think that's beautiful. Jana on my team said a while back and this really struck me, like what are the things that make me feel like me? And as a new mom, that's something I had to, you know, figure out, um, and putting those things in place and having those rhythms and finding your anchor. I love how you said that. So talk me through what made you get to the place where you thought, you know what, this season of business has come to an end and I need to close down the photography side.

Nancy Ray: (34:54)
Man. It was such, oh, it was such a hard decision. I had poured so many hours and so much time and so much heart into building this business. And what happened was, is my husband and I went on a marriage retreat. We had two little girls, they were ages like, mm, two and a half and like a baby, we just went like, yeah, she was like eight months old. And we went on this marriage retreat and right before we left, I took a pregnancy test and found out I was pregnant with baby number three. And it was in shock. It was a shock. I mean I had an eight month old. Oh my gosh. And I was like, wow, okay. Okay. And I immediately start asking myself, what does this mean for my life? Like this is this about to get real? Like, this is crazy. Yeah. And we went on this Al marriage retreat. Sorry. I know I've said that like four times, but during it, the, the leaders just kind of challenged me and challenged us with this question. Like when is the last time you've gone back to neutral with the Lord and they kinda explained what that meant. Like when, when is the last time you've kind of just taken your entire life before the Lord and just said like, Hey, what do, what do you wanna do with this? And it kind of is like what I'm saying, resetting or redefining success, like pretty regularly. It's like when is the last time you just kinda laid everything down and said, what do I want?lWith my wife, what is success right now? And of course I'm processing all these emotions while being pregnant. And, but at that point, my photography business was probably at its peak. And I had just come off maternity leave and things were going really well. You know, the most revenue I'd ever made. My education side of business was growing. My associate photographers were fully booked. And that I feel like was the time where God just kind of planted the seed in my heart. Like, are you willing to give up your photography business? And my immediate reaction was like, no, no, I have worked so hard for this. No. 12 years. 12 years. Yeah. At that point it was like 10 years, but I took almost an entire year to pray through this and work it out with the Lord. And what I realized was, you know, I just don't, I just don't know that I really want to continue to pour into this. When I, when I have some other things I'm gonna pour into namely my children. And at the same time, my key associate photographer, who would like run my business, um, shot the most weddings. She took over the business while I was on maternity leaves. She told me that she was ready for a change. And that her time at Nancy Ray photography was ending. And I just thought, okay, that, that right there was kinda what I needed to hear because I just knew in my heart, like my passion for this work is waning. Um, I don't have the energy or capacity to invest in hiring in building up another photographer because it's like a year long process when you train a wedding photographer. Right. And I just thought, I really think that was, God's answer to my prayer because I knew I just didn't want to really reinvest and like keep it going. But that scared me. That scared me a lot because this is what I had known. And worked for. But at the same time I had started my podcast and built up my education side of the business. And those things were really exciting to me. Those things were like, wow, I am really excited to learn how to do this. And so my excitement just naturally was kind of changing from one business to another. And after a lot of prayer, I remember I was like eight months pregnant. I was huge. I told my team, we're gonna give this photography business one more year. And at the end of its 12th year, we're gonna close the doors. Um, and I sobbed, oh, I sobbed through that meeting. And then they all cried. We all did because we loved it. But we also had this immense amount of peace and get this Shanna. I ended up closing the doors of my photography business at the end of 2019, just before the pandemic hit. And I would find out that I was pregnant with my fourth in 2020. And I just think God was so gracious because he knew the amount of stress and just how hard it would've been for me to, um, navigate running this business and building it up again and having a fourth baby, like during the pandemic, like I just am so grateful. Because it just would've done me in. I really think looking back, cuz I just wasn't as passionate about it. It was like that season was coming to a close, um, sorry. I know I'm talking a lot, but there's this book called Seasons of God and it talks a lot about how things in our life are seasonal. So like there's a spring and a summer and a fall and a winter to, to a lot of things in our life, including our businesses. And it just became very clear to me that Nancy Ray photography was kind of in its fall and it's like flourishing, but it was heading towards winter and that's okay. And that's good for things to come to an end. And so I, I closed the doors of Nancy Ray photography in 2019, took a big deep breath in all of 2020, you know, kind of survived. Like all of us did. Um, kept my podcast, kept my, my education side, found out I was pregnant with number four. Um, and it has just been, it's been a really big gift to end something that was really good. Um, it was hard to do it, but also again, like what does success look like? What is God calling me to, you know, what is his assignment for me in this season? That looks different and, and that's good. That's okay. You know, I'm, I'm just so happy and so grateful for where I am right now.

Shanna Skidmore: (40:44)
Yeah. I love that. And I feel like you're moving into a season of spring, you know, you're pursuing new, new things. So I wanna ask you, this has been sitting on the back of my mind for a while and I wanna ask you what, or how do you wrestle with, or what word would you even use if wrestle is in the right one when you're definition of success does not align with the world or the loud voices or, you know, um, that voice of more, more and more that we all hear. How do you, how do you handle that?

Nancy Ray: (41:19)
Yeah. Well that's real. That's real, um,

Shanna Skidmore: (41:23)
Day by day.

Nancy Ray: (41:24)
Yeah. Day by day. Right? It is real. And I think for me, the biggest thing that I can do is truly cut off the voices around me and just kind of get quiet. Practice some alone solitude time with the Lord and practically, what does that look like? You know, for me, it's looked like some really long social media breaks, um, and really setting some hard and fast boundaries around social media, like you and I, I mean, yep. We love talking about social media. We did a whole podcast about social media. So that's, but that's like a big thing because I think it's this hum in the back of all of our minds that we should be something that we should be doing something. And it causes a real tension and dissatisfaction in our lives. So really just kind of my number one thing is just to let me just kind of silence out every other voice and just try to hear God's voice in what he's saying and go from there and to be transparent when I have a really hard time with it, I go to counseling and work it out with somebody in like a safe, neutral space. That is gonna speak truth to me and help me process these things. Um, because sometimes especially when you have four little kids, it can be really hard to, to get that space, to hear or realize what you need to for this season. And so I think you gotta fight for that. You have to fight for that.

Shanna Skidmore: (43:00)
And what would you say, you know, for you? I don't, I have a lot of thoughts on the word balance, but I'm gonna use the word harmony. For you, how do you fight for that harmony? And I know you're ambitious. I mean, I'm pretty sure you're three on the Enneagram, right. You're an achiever. So I think there's this place we have to find between contentment and ambition, the sweet spot, you know, of the harmony of growing and challenging ourselves, but also acknowledging the seasons we're in and our limitation not limitations in a negative way, but just our time constraints or how do you specifically find that harmony? Is it just coming back to it every day? Like you've mentioned or trying to find that quiet spot? Like, because like you said, there is a, there's a hum. A constant hum between us entrepreneurial minds and um, a, a real wrestling I think can become and feel a lot of restlessness. Um, so how do you, if there's one or two things that have helped you really find like, okay, I feel contentment in this season or here's how I manage that, that place. Would you share those?

Nancy Ray: (44:10)
Yeah. I love the word harmony. I like to use the word like integrated, like integrating these different facets of your life um, together so that they support one another and I've kind of narrowed it down to like three categories. Now I know life is way more complex than this and, and nuanced, but for me it helps to kind of break it down to my faith and the time and resources and what I need to invest in my faith, cuz that's the, the most important thing to me, my home, which includes my marriage, my children, um, you know, my actual house and home and, and doing all those things that take up time. Um, as well as my own, you know, mental health, physical health, those things. So my home and then there's my work. And my work includes, um, for me, you know, my podcast, my online courses, the, the website, all the things, the content that I'm working on. And I, I try to look at those three things and say, okay, in this season, and for me, it's like every quarter, basically I'm reassessing this every quarter. Because my kids are changing so fast. The baby's changing so fast. You know, my youngest right now is at the time of this recording 11 months old. So like a year ago, right. I was about to have him. And then I was in like the newborn postpartum phase. So like, literally right now, my life is changing so much, even just quarterly as he grows and, um, gets bigger. But I like to sit down and look at those three aspects of my life and ask the questions, like, what am I doing in this season to nurture my faith, to nurture my home and to nurture my work. And I think it's really good to know that you can, this is like kind of a weird analogy, but almost like turn down the volume of certain ones and turn up the volume of certain ones depending on where you are. So right now I've turned down the volume on work. Like it's just, I've limited my work hours and my work time. And, but I'm slowly kind of turning that up again as the baby grows. Um, but the loudest ones for me have been my faith because I just feel like man, after the pandemic and everything, I have just been like just starving for growth and you know, just community with other people. Um, and I've really turned it up on home because, you know, I homeschool my kids a few days a week. They're all really little. So they just there's more needs involved than like when they will be when they're older. And, and that for me is success in this season. So I'm always asking myself, how can I live an integrated life where those three things are integrated well for this season and realizing it won't look like this forever. If that makes sense.

Shanna Skidmore: (47:06)
I love that so much, Nancy, this is my first summer season with Madeline. And it's so funny. I've had people, you know, uh, people in the past that have kids say, we work on the school year. Like we readjust every school year and it's so true. I'm like, childcare's different in the summer. You know, and that means my work has to change in the summer. And so I like how you, cuz I always sit down and once a year and do an annual plan and I look at it monthly, but really when you have, you know, in this season we have little kids, um, it can be quarterly. You're sitting down okay. And I like how you call it integrated life. I'm pretty sure you have a whole course on that. Is that not right?

Nancy Ray: (47:46)
I do. I do. It's like, like a podcast course. Because moms don't have the time to sit down and watch something on a computer. So yes. It's like an audio course all about living an integrated life. Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (47:57)
I love this conversation Nancy so much. And thank you for just sharing. I know I have wrestled in different seasons. I mean still do about the ambition and contentment and living my own definition of success in a world that tells me it should be something else. I think we're both such kindred spirits and I just love, and thank you so much for what you've learned through 12 years of business now running and being in that spring season of growing another business with four littles at home. And something I just wanted to end with before I, I wanna do a kind of a fire round with some Q and As. I don't know if you've ever felt this way, but I just wanna tell everybody listening and say it to myself again, just because you slowed down doesn't mean you'll get left behind. I struggled with this so much, this voice of if you know that old saying, if you're not growing, you're dying. I just wanna to challenge that so much because you have to listen to the rhythms and you and I both slowed down after 2019 and we're ramping back up. And I feel like if I had not had that season, I wouldn't get to run now. If I didn't have the season of resting and walking, I wouldn't have the energy to run. So if anybody's feeling like, you know, life needs more of me right now than my business. Um, I just wanna say it's okay. It'll be okay. Your business will be there. Or new business will be there when you're ready. So I don't know. I feel like if somebody needed to hear that, okay. I would ask everyone, um, that I interview and I would love to hear from you, Nancy, what is the best thing that you have learned about money?

Nancy Ray: (49:42)
I think the best thing that I have learned about money is that it is a tool. And when you pay attention to this tool and you learn, I don't know, just ways to manage it or handle it better. Just like if you were to pick up a screwdriver and you don't know how to work it and you read about it and you learn about it, then you know how to work, that tool better just knowing money's a tool and you, when you pay attention to it and you learn about it, you get better with it and it will serve you. And if you ignore it, it won't work for you. Like you want it to. But I think there's a lot of like good and bad mindset attachments to money. You know, we've talked about this. Like people sent like profit, the evil, you know, that's, there's this like association that like making profits evil, like what is that? No. Okay. First of all, money, isn't evil. It's like a brick, like Dave Ramsey says, it's like a brick. You can take a brick and you can build a hospital or you can take a brick and throw it through a window and break something. Money is like that it's amoral, it's not right or wrong. But when you can just kind of separate yourself from that and say, oh, this is a tool. For me it becomes interesting, like a problem to solve or like a tool to learn to use. When you take out the, the morality that I think a lot of people assign to money, um, you can really do amazing things with it and it can be such a blessing in your life.

Shanna Skidmore: (51:04)
Yeah. I love that so much. That's so good. Okay. I don't know if you had time to think about this, but what is one thing you would be embarrassed if people knew about you, your business, something,

Nancy Ray: (51:16)
Oh man. Wkay. Here's what I'm embarrassed about. I, we have not been keeping a budget and every time we have a baby, our budget completely goes out the window for like months and months. And it's embarrassing because will, and I are like big time budget, pay attention to your money people. Yeah. And that's, I'm embarrassed to say that that really right now is just not, it's not happening. And I wish that it were, but here's the thing too. I, I share that because I think a lot of people will go through these big life moments and I have to remind myself like, oh, that's why we have an emergency fund. It doesn't mean we're not gonna be in a budget forever. It just means that we had a massive life event and we're getting our feet under ourselves again, and we need to get back on the horse and keep going. So I'm embarrassed to share that because it's not what we teach, but also I'm happy to share that because maybe somebody needs to give themselves a little bit of grace in the moment or season that they're in

Shanna Skidmore: (52:21)
Nancy. I'm actually so glad that you shared that. And I can, I can, that's a hard question to answer. Because Kyle and I just sat down. I mean, I literally am a business cuz I talk about finance every single day. And we had to sit down last month and like our personal budget is not working and yeah, after having Madeline, we had to let it settle. You know, we had to figure out like this old way of doing it isn't working, we need to adjust. So we were right there with you. We were for several months, if not longer, um, just like spending what we wanted and okay. We need to reign it back in and get back to our intentionality. So thank you for sharing that. Okay. Third question would be, um, are there any things that you learned that maybe you wished you could go back and do differently or even like, your're glad you're you learned it or what you would do differently. So are there any wish you could do over moments?

Nancy Ray: (53:21)
Okay. I I'm gonna share a very fast little story. I don't know if this is like a Do-over moment, but it was a really big light bulb moment for me. So when I was running my photography business, I'll never forget. I had hired the team where, you know, doing the best we ever had. And I, um, broke the, the revenue threshold of 200,000 and it was the first time I'd ever done that. And I remember talking to my husband, I was like, Will, we gotta go to dinner. Like this is so exciting. We just broke 200,000 in revenue for this last year. I mean, I think it was like 206,000 that we had made in, in the calendar year. And I was so proud of myself and he said, that's awesome. But have we looked at what the profit is? And I was like, it doesn't matter. We're good like 200,000. We did it. I did this. This is so cool. Yeah. And we actually, he, he was managing the money. So he kind of knew what he was asking me. And he said, it's not about the revenue. It's about the profit. And we really increased the expenses of your business this year too. We had hired people. We started shooting in film, which is crazy expensive. And after paying myself, I realized after talking to him that we had broken, even. There wasn't profit that year. Because there were so many more expenses. So I don't have a regret about this. Or I don't wish I could do it over. But I went from being really high on my horse and very proud of myself to crying like sobbing. Like I am not the business person I thought I was, I thought that I was doing really well and I had done an amazing job. And my husband graciously and, and honestly he's a very honest guy. He was like, this isn't as good as you think it is. And it was one of the biggest moments in as a business owner for me to just stop and say okay. It doesn't matter actually what I'm, I'm bringing in, in revenue, what matters is what I'm making. Because if I'm just spending everything that I'm making, which I was that year, it, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Now my husband works with these business owners that literally make millions. And some of them are breaking even, or, or, or negative, not even making a profit. And he's like, the revenue does not matter what matters is what you're making in profit. And so that was very humbling. And also probably one of the most profound lessons I learned as a business owner.

Shanna Skidmore: (55:56)
I'm I mean, if we could sum it up with that that's so I think that's such a hard lesson, Nancy, but such a life changing lesson, you know, I think revenue does say, Hey, you've got a lot more clients. People are trusting you. I think there's something beautiful about revenue that should be celebrated. But knowing profit matters, that's what you get to take home. And I see so many people, I know you used this word when were first talking reinvesting in the business. And then they come to me and say, I have nothing left to show for it. How much should I be reinvesting? You know, I always say wealth is not about how much money you make. It's how you spend the money you make. And I just think that that's thank you for sharing that. I think, yeah. I hope that was a light bulb for a lot of people. I mean, look at both celebrate in revenue. That means a lot of people trusted you to do the service or product you're offering. But look at how much you're spending too. So, okay. I love that. Fourth question would be what is a big win in your business or a pinch me moment, either one, um, that you just wanna celebrate and they could be in your photography business or Nancy in the, in the business you're running now one day a week. You know, I think that's something to be celebrated. You're doing it.

Nancy Ray: (57:10)
Yeah. I am absolutely celebrating the fact that I'm only working like half to one day a week right now as I have my four kiddos at home. But my mind first went back to this really sweet event that I was invited to be a part of at the end of my photography career. I was asked to speak at a film workshop retreat. And I had my third baby and he, I asked if I could take him along because I said, I can't do it without, I'm still nursing him. I want him to come with me. And they're like, you totally can. While I was there, I had a huge pinch me moment because I had already announced that I was closing my business. And they still said, we still want you to come. It was with my film lab that I had worked with for years and years, but I never met them in person. And here I was, I found myself sitting on a panel on this stage with some of the biggest names in film photography. I was sitting up there with Ryan Ray and Elizabeth Messina and Joel Serato and like several others. And if you're not in the wedding industry, it's fine. Those are just really great film photographers. Um, but I was looking around and I, I had my baby, um, with a friend watching him in the back and I'm answering these questions. And at the very end of this retreat where I'm speaking, sharing my heart, talking all about photography and all that I had built over the last 12 years, the film lab said, you, you are our largest client. You know that right. And I was like, what? They're they're like, yeah, you, you, we process more orders from you and your team than anybody. And we know that you're about to close your business. And I mean, I knew that was gonna be a huge loss of revenue for them because we did so many weddings a year and sent them. And they said, we just want to encourage you and honor you. And bless you. I'm like getting teary eyed thinking about this. I did not expect to cry about this, but it was just like so sweet for me to like be loved in that way, and know, know that like me quitting, my job is actually affecting a lot of people. Like it's affecting their bottom line quite a bit, but I was still asked to come and still asked to share. And I just had this moment, like shoulder to shoulder with some of the best in the business. And I don't know, it just was like the biggest honor to be there and share knowing that like my income is going down, my revenue is like declining. My business is about to be done and they still want to hear from me. And it just like reminded me that what I have to offer is more than the money that I'm making for myself and for them. Um, and they were just so encouraging and so sweet. So that, that for me, sorry, I did not expect to get emotional about this, but to me just meant so much. And was just the reminder I needed as I closed up my business that was like October of 2019. And I shot my last wedding that same month. And then that was it. Um, after 12 years of doing photography. So that was my biggest, like pinch me moment. And my biggest win, I think was just to be honored in that way. To be invited there. Um, and then just to be like called out is their number one client, like amidst all of these people and just made me think like, wow, that was really beautiful. I did some really good work.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:00:26)
Nancy, thank you for sharing that. Okay. I have one more question. And then I wanna do a sendoff with you. Just share with us what you're working on now, or one resource. It can be a resource from you or a tool that you use that you would love to share. So either one share what you're working on now, or if there's, um, a resource that you just wanna sing the praises of, let us know.

Nancy Ray: (01:00:49)
So what I'm working on now is continuing to deliver really amazing content on my podcast and love my podcast. It's just such a fun format for me to share. Not only what's on my heart, but just really practical things that I'm learning. And I'm also working on just, I don't, I think streamlining is like the best way I can put it. The beautiful thing about being a mom and having limited working hours, is it really forces you to get very smart with the time that you're spending. When you're working. Kind of like when you make your, make yourself pay yourself, it like forces you to get your numbers in order, like with my limited time and my limited schedule, I only work on the most important things and I'm learning to be okay with that, but I'm also learning, okay. The things that I am spending my time on have to be making money or providing extreme amounts of value. And so my focus is content, my podcast and what I'm putting out there. And then also just really making my courses and my website the best it can be so that I can serve people better. So right now I'm in the middle of just kind of tweaking and reworking all that I already do. So that's gonna mean like a new website soon. Um, some, some refreshes to the courses, things like that.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:02:16)
I love that Nancy. Yeah. So much about just cleaning it, feeling organized. That's how I feel about my house right now. I'm just like, get it organized. Just, um, when life feels a little chaotic, I like organize my pantry. So yeah. To send us off, I would love to hear, let's go back all the way back to 2008. What would you tell yourself then? Looking back now, what would you tell yourself on day one?

Nancy Ray: (01:02:42)
Oh, this is a great question. Stay close to the Lord, cuz he really is all the satisfaction you'll need in the world. Um, have fun along the way. Don't take yourself so seriously, but make sure that you are planning times in your work and in your life to just play and have fun as you go and take care of yourself. Don't ever neglect yourself, your body, your mind for work. Um, but as you take care of yourself, you'll actually become better and more efficient and effective in all that you do. Yeah, I think that's, I'll just leave it at that.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:03:20)
Nancy did not share the name of her podcast, but it's um, Work and Play with Nancy Ray and guys, if you have not listened to it, it's so good. Um, it encourages my heart so much. So go check that out, Nancy. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I just love getting to know you more. Um, even though we get to chat often and hearing more of your story and thank you for being with us today.

Nancy Ray: (01:03:44)
Thank you, Shanna.

Shanna Skidmore: (01:03:45)
Hey wildflower. You just finished another episode of Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. Head over to consider the wildflowers podcast.com for show notes, resource links, and of course, how you can connect with Nancy. This one final thought from Ladybird Johnson - wWere flowers bloom, so does hope. I'll see you next time.