003. Ashlyn Carter : Building a 7-Figure Copywriting Business

For Ashlyn Carter, the sounds of stilettos echoing off the floors of an Atlanta high-rise were music to her ears. Life in the fast lane felt like the career she’d always dreamed of, until partial hospitalization for an eating disorder brought her face to face with some hard life and career decisions. Just months after saying “I do” she found herself turning in her 2-weeks notice and knocking on the door of entrepreneurship.

In today’s interview Ashlyn shares her story of building a 7-figure copywriting business and how she navigates working from a place of rest not hustle in a world that so often whispers that success is doing more, more, more.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/ashlyn-carter

Transcript

Ashlyn Carter: (00:00)
I feel like I keep getting on a pony and it buck me off on the floor and get on it again. And it bucks me off that was like coming back from maternity leave the second time. So it just, it was, you know, trying to get resynced with the team and everything. And I'm driving Tal and Liza to nursery. And I was talking to Tal and I said like, what are some things daddy likes? Golf, you know, baseball, football. He's just calling out things Daddy likes. And, um, what are some things Tal likes and he's naming out pretty much the same activities. And then he said, I said, what are some things mommy likes? And he said work. And then I said, okay, what else? And like that like dagger to the heart. I was like, what else? And he said, talking to people at work. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's like double whammy. I texted Wes after I sobbed the whole way home, I thought something has to change again.

Shanna Skidmore: (00:48)
You're listening to consider the wildflowers, the podcast episode three. Today, I'm hanging out with Ashlyn Carter, founder of Ashlyn Wrights. I'm lucky enough to call Ashlyn a dear friend in business and in life. We met way back in 2016 at a conference. She was just wee months into launching her calligraphy and copywriting business, and I was a keynote speaker. I talked about defining enough and redefining success. And once you hear Ashlyn's story, you'll know why we became quick friends. If you dig professional bios, here goes: as an entrepreneur international speaker, mentor and marketer, Ashlyn Carter is the premier expert for copywriting for creative entrepreneurs. She's the founder and CEO at Ashlyn Writes, a copywriting business and marketing curriculum source for creatives. 90 plus 1-on-1 clients, 5,000+ students, and seven figures in revenue later, she's pinpointed what it is that helps lock in half a million dollar launches for digital marketing campaigns. Ashlyn has worked with major brands' marketing efforts, including Delta airlines, Ford Fry restaurants, and supported entrepreneurs, including Jenna Kutcher, Amy Porterfield, Julie Solomon, and more. She's been honored as 30, under 30 in the Alpha Delta Pi international organization as well. She's been a contributing educator with Creative Live, ConvertKit and Honeybook, and has been featured in Forbes, Southern Living, Style Me Pretty and more. Basically she's a rock star. Ashlyn lives outside of Atlanta and convinces her husband, baby, and toddler to go with her to grab tacos weekly. Without further ado, let's dive into Ashlyn's story. Hey, it's Shanna. And this is Consider the Wildflowers the podcast. For the past 15 plus years, I've had the honor to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world. As a former Fortune 100 financial advisor turned business consultant, I have a unique opportunity to see the real behind the highlight reel. I'm talking profit and loss statements, unpaid taxes, moments of burnout, and those of utter victory, or as my husband says, the content, everyone is wondering, but not many are talking about. And now I'm bringing these private conversations to you. Hear the untold stories of how industry leaders, founders, and up and coming entrepreneurs got their start, the experiences that shaped them, and the journey to building the brands they have today. Stories that will inspire and reignite, encourage to redefine success, and build a life and business on your own terms. Welcome wildflower. I'm so glad you're here.

Shanna Skidmore: (03:08)
Hey Ashlyn. Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for jumping in and I just can't wait to have you share your story. So let's just dive right in. And I just wanted you to take everybody back. Just tell us who you are first and then take us back to like life before business. Just how it all got started.

Ashlyn Carter: (03:26)
Awesome. Well, I'm so excited to be here, Shanna. It's all, it's just a treat to talk to you whenever. And I, I think it like melds friendship business. So like this will be a peak into our text messages. I think for some people, at least I hope. So I have been in business now six and a half years, um, for myself. But before that I worked in corporate marketing. I adored my job so much in like PR in Midtown Atlanta is where I was working. Um, but I had done calligraphy as a side hustle, like, and by side hustle, I mean wee hours of the morning, uh, just to have a creative outlet, you and I are both alike, in that way, I think we have such a love for the business side of things and data and metrics, but we also, um, like have a creative well that has to be filled. So that was mine. And long story short, I ended up, um, just putting a lot of pressure on myself, both at work to get a promotion. And also if the, the world of PR and marketing at a corporate level, um, can be a little stressful. Um, just constant pitching, constant changes, uh, crisis communications. And I honestly loved that part about it. I was an addict to the glam of at least I thought it was glam of all of that, but trying to juggle my side hustle, my real job, and then my husband proposed. And so planning a wedding, um, took a toll on me and I started trying to control measures the best way I could, which ended up being counting calories. And so it just, it was like math. I could hold in my hand when I couldn't figure out anything else. And so, um, bit by bit over time that turned into a full blown eating disorder. I went into partial hospitalization in October of 2015. And it was during that time that I started to realize there's people out there that do what they love and make money. And it was like, what? Like I had no idea that ecosystem existed. I had read, uh, Laura Casey's Cultivate What Matters book during that time? Um, I went to, I took a freelancer that I, I would pitch her for stories and she would cover us. But one day I was like, okay, this, I probably shouldn't be asking this on a work lunch, but tell me, like you get paid? And she was like, yes, Ashlyn. And I said, so like, can I ask, like, do you make a salary? Like you make enough to live on, like, your husband has a job, you have a job, but like y'all can survive. She was like, yes, you can make enough money writing. Like if you would like to write, you can make money. And that blew my mind. And so with that, um, the seed was implanted and I, um, two months after I got out of recovery, I put in my two weeks notice and the rest is history,

Shanna Skidmore: (06:03)
So, oh my goodness, Ashlyn, your story is so impactful, but wait, how long was this timeline? How long did you work? Kind of corporate. And then walk me through that timeline.

Ashlyn Carter: (06:15)
I graduated in May 2010 and went straight into marketing. I worked for three different companies. So the first company I worked for was a women's leadership organization. It was an international sorority and I was marketing coordinator there. And then I wanted to go, like, I always had my eyes on the Atlanta PR world. And so like I wanted the Midtown tower. I wanted pencil skirt. I wanted clicky heels. Like I wanted that bad. And so, um, that's where I was next. I was there for years and I loved it. Um, I just, I adored, I honestly, I cut a lot of my chops there and really, um, it refined the craftsmanship of like what I do, I guess, in copywriting and marketing. And then from there, uh, I guess he's this little chef in the Atlanta world tapped me to come over to his company and be his public relations. Um, they were bringing PR in house and wanted me for the job. And so that was my path. And it was in that last job that I realized, this is not it. And that was 2015. So five years in all in the, working world.

Shanna Skidmore: (07:17)
So did you like how, I mean, we can talk about this briefly, but. I'm just interested to know, like, when did you realize this is a problem? Like I, something's not, well, I'm not well. And was that after you got married to Wes or was it before, you know, kind of walk me through that?

Ashlyn Carter: (07:36)
These are such good questions. Okay. So I zero in, like, I wasn't even the kid with the lemonade stand growing up. We maybe my sister and I maybe did that once. Like had actually, and we made friendship bracelets and sold them. So maybe there were like little bits but like, when I was it, like when I was at Jackson Spalding, I was like, oh man, I'm in it. Like, like, get me up to this ladder. Like I am a working girl, love this. And even when I moved over, I was like that until the COO of the company that I was with had me in his office, cuz I was, I was difficult as he said I was unemployable because I think I always pushed against whenever they were like, this is how we do things. This is how we do. I would definitely like entrepreneur brain, you know, say, well, what if we try it this way? Like this might be more efficient. And um, they did not like that, which that's their prerogative. And so we had some, we had some pushback and then I, one day had said, hey, I would like to have Sundays off. Like I would like to be unreachable one day out of the week. Here's how I think it can manage. Here's what I think the plan is, you know, like I understand if a big crisis comes up, but like I would like to not have to answer my phone one day out of seven days. Wow. And he told me, um, my direct manager said, you should have thought about that before you majored in public relations. And he said, that's like not gonna happen here. And that's, that's the point where I realized, I was like, okay, so this is a mentality difference. Like I, I can't work nonstop. Like I, at this point I knew something was off with my ability to maintain stress and manage anxiety. Like I, I, I was practicing eating disorder behaviors at this point, but I, I don't think anybody, maybe Wes could tell my fiance at the time. Um, but it was, and then that July, I went home for a wedding dress fitting and I walked in and my mom and dad were like, what's going on? And I just remember like, so I can't manage everything in my life well. Like I'm not dealing. And um, they were like, well, let's, you know, what do we need to do? And I was like, I'll be okay. Just let me push through to the wedding and then I'll be fine. Um, I didn't remember. I mean the night I'll go like straight into it. So the rehearsal dinner night, I was, I hadn't eaten in days.

Shanna Skidmore: (10:05)
Was this in October Ashlyn?

Ashlyn Carter: (10:07)
Good question. This was August, August 18 right before our anniversary. So like that week leading up, I just, just petrified to be in front of people to be away from work, um, to have eyes on me, like just terrified. And so I was probably at my lowest weight then. And um, I remember I was so stressed the morning of my wedding and I couldn't sleep that whole night. I got up at like 4:30 and I just started running and my dad had to come pick me up because I was exhausted. I couldn't keep running and took me home. And my mom's friends I'll, I'm sure I'll mention him sooner or later. So I'm a follower of Jesus and my mom's friends came over and like put hands on me and just prayed. And, um, the enemy just had me in truly, it was the pit of death and Christ redeems from the pit. I, I don't remember that morning. It's very foggy. Um, I remember starting around the wedding time, but it's even sometimes looking back at pictures. I'm like, I vaguely remember that. But then like by God's grace, I started kinda like the afternoon on, I remember. And then I, after we got married, it was, it was awful the first few months awful. Um, I was very, very sick. Um, didn't see the reason for living. I was like this massive burden I knew on Wes or at least I thought because here, you know, it's waited years to get married to me. And here I am like this dark cloud angry, like just, I was completely hopeless. And um, couldn't understand like, why was this like depression and why was it happening to me? Like I grew up with a fine family and like what I, and that's so naive of me, but I think a lot of times we think that mental health or whatever issues, um, they don't happen to certain people, but like they don't discriminate. It can happen to anybody. And I really learned a lot about not just cognitive behavioral therapy through recovery, but, um, I don't know, just a lot about how, how we deal with stress and how we deal with different things. And it was I'm yeah. It, the Lord redeems, I'm so glad to be on this side of it. And I'm honestly glad I went through it because I would not have learned those lessons another way.

Shanna Skidmore: (12:18)
And that, that I have no doubt has so much to do with how you run your business today

Ashlyn Carter: (12:25)
Everything, even. So we just hired three new employees and one of them, she was like, I am amazed at like the level of like, you really want people to, there's nothing that you send that you're like, I need to hear back immediately. Um, like there's a lot of respect for people's time to work. And I said, yes, cuz I have PTSD from working a place where that was like the complete opposite. And so yes, it has everything to do with how I set up my team and my company culture.

Shanna Skidmore: (12:50)
Thank you so much for sharing that Ashlyn. So this, this freelancer you were talking about kind of, it sounds like she really planted a seed. That you could do this differently. And I love how you said it was a values difference and, that's so much of my story too. Just a values difference in realizing you can create a business around the values you have. So tell us when you put in that two week notice, what did you do, I mean, how was your business born? Like what did you offer? What, how did you price it? Just tell us about those early days of business. Like how did it go?

Ashlyn Carter: (13:21)
It's so fun to like go back and relive it too. Cause don't you ever wish? Sometimes I'm like, I wish I could go back and like revisit the magic of it all. Cuz it was just such a like childlike wonder time. Um, like there's no limit. Ugh. It was amazing stars in my eyes. So literally picture like starry-eyed Ashlyn. Once this light bulb went off, that was December like Christmas, December of 2015. So January and I told my, the clinic I was with they're incredible. I said I was like, I'm done, I'm walking from this. Like, and they're like, are you sure? Like you, you look ready, but like usually people don't just, and I was like, no, I am walking from this like yeah, resurrected life going forward. So that January and like by God's grace, I knew, I know that's not everybody's path, but I was ready to move on. And so January is when I started being like, okay, so if this is ever gonna happen, I gotta get some clients. And I would have people reach out occasionally and ask for me to write, um, like different magazine articles or about.com articles. And so I started really leaning into those connections and kind of putting feelers out with the writers. Remember I was on the PR side of the marketing thing. So I started talking to the writers and saying like, Hey, under the table, I kind of wanna switch to your side. And so I was getting articles to write, definitely not enough to like support myself, but at least I was, I was trying and I was trying to, to figure out like, what kind of things did I like to write? I would help people with their resumes. I would also then do the calligraphy work. Like I was ramping up and adding more weddings on. Um, so I was trying to build an on-ramp and then February I came home. I was, I honestly, in my head, if I think back, I was probably thinking March, April, but I came home in February complaining one too many times about my job and the atmosphere. And Wes was like, that's my husband. He said, he was like, you're done. He said, um, get in the car, we're gonna go get you a book. And he just kept saying a book, a book. And he drove me, he went to Best Buy and we got a laptop and it was a MacBook. And that was, um, that was, he's so sweet. But that was his being like, like, um, I'm thinking I'm like such a nerd and love all books. So I'm like, yes, this is the bookstore date I have waited for, with this guy for forever. And that's not what it was, but we still never gone to the bookstore together. But I was able then to have a, a tool or a resource to start using. And, um, that was it. I wrote my two weeks letter on that printed it, took it in and I was so grateful to turn in and um, just Ugh, so hopeful. So I remember the first Monday I sat in my spare bedroom and I was like, well, I guess I should write. I was like, what have I done? But I one time when I left a job, I walked out with that box, Wes helped me. It was, I went after hours, so I didn't have to see anybody cuz I was so upset to leave. And so like what have I done? I just remember crying, holding my box of stuff down the elevator. This felt nothing like that. This was just like, yes I can run. Yeah. Like I've shackles off my feet. I can run. And so yeah, I set, I wrote down my core values. I very quickly tapped into, um, Atlanta's Rising Tide society chapter. And I would just go to as many meetups as possible. And I was the only one in that group talking about copy or marketing basically because I kept hearing them talking about their sales and it had to do with words and I didn't understand why they were so uncomfortable arguing for their price. Like these people were so good and like they were nervous to send an inquiry response because they'd raise their prices. Like what? And so I kept saying like, I can help with that. And I would give pointers. And eventually one day I, they asked me to like speak in front of the group and I mean, it was a small group, but that was the first time I realized, okay, there's something, there's a ven diagram overlap where there's an Ashlyn sized gap and something's missing that I can help them with. And so that's when I started offering services. I wish I could remember. I know it was like website copywriting first and email funnel copywriting. I'll tell this one quick story too. In April I went to my first creative retreat and that I just, it, Ugh, it was so invaluable to be in front of people. But also at that retreat, it was in Texas. I met a girl named Jenna Kucher and we were bonding over, we had spicy margaritas. We were at the little bar of the place. Um, like there wasn't anybody in there. I just remember it was the two of us and we were able to connect and really talk, well I got home and a couple months later she like cold emailed me. Hey, like, I don't know if you remember me, but also I am looking at, I need some emails written for a campaign I have coming up. It's called the Instagram Lab. Would you be interested? And I was like, yeah, if you would trust me, like I love to write emails. Like I love doing this. And so that kicked off, I think my connection to a clientele and building my process out and really understanding like what a launch is, studying launch, studying them, studying, studying them. And so, and I'm am so grateful that she passed my name around as well. So that was the start of me realizing there was really something to the copy thing. Of course it took me until about 2018, 2 years later to cut off the calligraphy side. Because I thought that nobody would ever trust a copywriter for their industry that didn't know what it was like to sell in their industry. So I kept it on, but I was, yeah, that was a mistake. But I only had to learn it that way. Like that's I had to learn it.

Shanna Skidmore: (18:56)
So when you started, I mean, was it, it was always Ashlyn Writes, but it was calligraphy and you wanted to do writing, but you would kind of take on any project.

Ashlyn Carter: (19:06)
Um, yes, that did not last long. Cuz I remember hearing, it was probably by August, I had my first copywriting for creatives, that's my signature program iteration. And that was because the amount of inquiries I was receiving for my main service, which at that point was brand story and website copy. Um, I wanted to like codify that and make it available to anybody. So over the course of, I guess may June and July, that's about three months where I started realizing like, okay, I can't be the Jack of all trades with writing. I have to go hard into this. And that I went in kicking and screaming though, because I, I mean, I remember I was turning on a Piedmont road in Buckhead, Atlanta listening to some business podcasts as one does when they're starting a business. And some guy on some podcast was talking about, you know, like the riches in the niches and all that kind of stuff. And I just arrogantly was thinking "pats on head". That's so cute. But like that's not me. I can like do it all. I'm a dang good writer. Like give it to me. And then I realized there's a lot of truth in that because I, um, I wasn't referable until I really cinched down and honed in.

Shanna Skidmore: (20:14)
Until people knew exactly what you did. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like that was a real turning point for you when you got that opportunity with Jenna and then really got to study the launches and now, you know, doing the websites, doing launch emails and copies. I mean you really have your niche. Um, kind of walk us through like where are you now? Does it look the same? Does it look completely different? Um, as that sounds like it was a real turning point for you.

Ashlyn Carter: (20:42)
Yeah. That's a good question. I think it, when you say that, I was like, does it look the same? It looks the same, but it also does look completely different. It feels. Um, so now the business, if we just like look at data and numbers about 30% of the revenue comes in from the agency side. And I know a lot of people after they do, you know, the one on one work after so long will like, what's the word, sunset that side of the business and then lean into the more scalable side. But I feel like if I cut off the agency, it'd be like cutting off my right arm because it's where I honed my craft, where I continue to practice my craft. Um, it's our little lab for testing ideas and seeing like boots on the ground, what's happening out there in the landscape. So I love that side. We do like still brand messaging, web copy and launch copy. Um, but then the other side of the business, I feel so strongly good copy, good copy's expensive. And it should be, it is hours and hours and hours of research. And it is formulating sales arguments. It's like being a lawyer on paper for a product. And that, that means it's expensive when it's done well. So that shouldn't hold people back though, especially when you're starting from being able to access that. And I also believe that so many people have been like told that you're a bad writer. You're like, like me with math and numbers, you're just bad at math. You have to go to coach class. It's not your thing. You're a words girl. And so I know a lot of people are told that with writing. And so when it comes to writing for their business, they're completely jarred. They don't know where to start. They're starting at the wrong place at a blinking cursor, which you shouldn't start there. Anyway. I, I hate that. Um, they don't know that you have to go through so many drafts before you get one. They don't know the frameworks. And I love to get those tools into people's hands because being a small business owner to me, like it, it lit something in me that I didn't even know was there. Um, I get to be creative. I get to share things with people I get to, um, hopefully make an impact. Uh, I work, our audience is a lot of women who are able to bring money, supplemental money into their families and not to be like super Christian cliche, but the whole like Proverbs 31, like that girl is bringing in, like she's got, she's got a business running and that's kind of how I want to equip people to be. Um. I don't know where I was go. That was a tangent, but

Shanna Skidmore: (23:01)
No, I love, I love that so much. And just, walk, I think you were moving towards like why now you offer educating others.

Ashlyn Carter: (23:09)
Copy bar, Yep. So I wanna put just as many templates out there to help people. Like we have the Copy Bar shop, then I have Copywriting for Creatives. It's a course, a couple other courses. Like I wanna show people the systems and the things I implement. Um, so hopefully they can, you know, take what they like and leave what doesn't, but be able to access some of that. Not at the one-on-one price point.

Shanna Skidmore: (23:29)
Yeah. This is amazing. So, okay. You brought this up. Oh, so I need to, I have so many questions, but you brought up that you were always told you were bad at math. So will you just walk through. Like you can, you can teach how to write to someone like, you know, that feels like they're not a good writer, you have a framework for that. So talk through running your business. Like how did you start paying yourself? Was it scary? What do you feel like came naturally? What was totally hard? Just let's talk about the numbers.

Ashlyn Carter: (23:59)
Okay. Paid myself from day one. Just kidding. Not at all. I went, I'm pretty sure like an entire business year without paying myself regularly at the end of the first. So I started February, 2016, my business, I think it's like January something is the, if you like looked in the Atlanta records or Georgia state records. So December fast forward, 12 months later, I look, I think it was about $60,000 that I brought in.

Shanna Skidmore: (24:23)
Which is amazing, first year,

Ashlyn Carter: (24:25)
Well that's because I think there was, I know how to sell, right? Like there's a product market gap. I knew how to do that. I had no idea what to do with the revenue. So I just kept it there because I was terrified. I was like, this is not gonna happen again. This is gonna go away. I don't really know what I'm doing. Um, I don't know the percentages of anything that I should be saving for taxes or saving or reinvesting in the business. Um, had no idea. So that was about the time. And Wes was livid. Ashlyn. You've left your job. We had medical bills on medical bills on medical bills because I was at Atlanta center for eating disorder so long. Like it was awful. Um, mean big marriage fights cuz he was like, we, we cannot live on one income right now, which is what we're doing. So that was kind of the breaking point of me realizing I have my little spreadsheet where I'm tracking sales, but I've got to start to figure out what to do on the backside of this. And that's I remembered you because you were at, oh, I didn't even mention you were at, um, the retreat as well in Austin. And you had said. You had spoken. And I remember for the first time thinking like there's somebody talking about math that helps me, she she's approaching it more from a restful place and more of a sustainable model instead of me feeling like I've constantly got, you know, something just chasing me. And so I remember reaching out to you at that point and saying like, I'm broken, I need help. I don't know how to pay myself. Um, I kind of had pricing figured out. I was looking at other copywriters. I was looking at industry rates. I knew that I came in with a lot of experience from working and writing for so long, but it was very broken at the end of 2016.

Shanna Skidmore: (26:14)
os okay. Yes, I, we did meet and I love that and I can't remember exactly when we worked together. But what do you feel like were your takeaways from our conversation or just things you've learned over the last few years about money and what were the things that really had the most impact, would you say about owning your finances and your business?

Ashlyn Carter: (26:36)
Okay. So I think it was about that time. I reached out because I didn't understand, I still had in my head of the way I grew up the way so many of us grow up more, equals more. So more clients equals more money. If you can just take on a lot of clients, take on a lot of projects, you win the game. And that was not at all. Like I didn't understand that if I was able to figure out sustainable pricing, I could actually pull down the number of clients and service fewer clients, but make more, I'd heard that, but I, I did not have it on paper until talking to you and being able to see, okay, if I have this many packages sold in a year, then that that's all that makes it, that make like I had to make my blueprint and I still, every single day pull up my blueprint spreadsheet. Um, it's I tell everybody in the business that like comes on, I'm like, this is the Bible. Like we go by this, these are the sales we need to make to keep the lights on. Like, this is how, how it all breaks down. Um, the minute I sign up for like a new software or if I click on, like I try one out, see if we like it. And I upgrade to the annual plan. I'm like have to go in the blueprint and update it., I'm anal about that. But because it has been, it's my roadmap. It's like the thing I have out in front of me as a compass to figure out what to do next. Um, so, yeah,

Shanna Skidmore: (27:58)
But for those who aren't aware, like the blueprint Ashland's talking about is your money plan for the year. It says how many you need to make in sales and where you can spend your money, how to pay yourself. It's like a math problem, like a big puzzle, but it simplifies I'm the same. Like I live and breathe by that thing. Um, because I too come from a finance culture, but of more, more, more, more is better. More is better. Um, and I can't operate that way.

Ashlyn Carter: (28:21)
No. Yeah. It was just, it was antithetical. I, I realized at the end of 2016 and in 2017, what I was doing was antithetical for why I started my business. And that was like a red flag for me. Like I wasn't, I was back to not taking Sundays. I remember texting you one Sunday morning being like, I don't have to work today. Like what I've I built this business to run from that. Then I went straight back into it. But through you, I was able to figure out how to get back to, um, a rhythm where I could pay myself and not work all the time.

Shanna Skidmore: (28:50)
Yeah. Which I know isn't perfect. And I wanna talk about that in a second, but. Tell us about, I don't know if you call it your mantra, motto. I don't know the term that you use, but work from a place of restaurant hustle. How did that come about and talk us through that?

Ashlyn Carter: (29:06)
So I was talking to one of my best friends right before her name's Taylor, right before I left my job and I was telling her like, why I wanted to leave. And I kept saying like, I just, like, I'm not working from a place I'm working from hustling all the time and I want to work more from a place of rest. And she said that she goes, so you wanna work from a place of rest, not hustle. And I was like, yes, it's exactly what I'm saying. And so after I said that with her, it like stuck in my mind and it comes from because I want to, again, like the Lord has designed us for rhythms of rest and work and rest and work. And if even the Lord rested, then how much more do I need it? And there's, I mean, countless studies that show how, when we unplug or go on a true vacation, we come back more recharged. So I knew that that was something I wanted, I wasn't practicing, but I wanted to lean towards that and figure out what if I reversed it? What if I flipped? What if, instead of like, whatever, like the proverbial equivalent of like that meme of what's her name from bridesmaids, like passing out on the couch and just like running and jumping on the couch of exhaustion. What if instead of that approach to rest, I could flip it and from like deep, good rest, get excited about going into work, like the flip, flip the conversation. And so that was like just always kind of a north star that I wanted to build my business culture, even when it was just me around. And then now as I've, you know, gone through two maternity leaves and building a team and growing it and going through seasons where honestly it probably looks like a, and it is a lot of hustle, like a launch or whatever. And I've, but you know, melded with seasons where I'll be on sabbatical and I'll be completely off. Um, I've kind of, and this is one thing I was thinking about this weekend before we talked, I've realized that sometimes rest can come in the work, there is a deep fulfillment rest and enjoyment in like doing what, you know, your assignments are from the Lord or like doing the thing that you like, you know, how my toddler Tal, when I give him a chore to do or a task and he does it right. And I'm like, thanks so much, buddy. Like, that was awesome. Thank you for putting your plate by the kitchen. And he just like, looks at me for a minute and smiles, cuz he's like job well done. Like, you know, he gets it. That kind of like momentary rest is something I'm learning more and more in business and it feels so good to like end even at the end of the day to be like, wow, I did good work today. Like. I only get to rest for a few hours, like technically, but like I am rested and sleepy, smiling at the fact that I did the work that I had in front of me today. And I did a good job at it.

Shanna Skidmore: (31:53)
I love this so much. Yeah.

Ashlyn Carter: (31:54)
Yeah. God has just been gracious to give me that. Give me that phrase. And obviously I think it's very biblically grounded because that's how he ordained work. So I shouldn't be surprised when it works that way.

Shanna Skidmore: (32:07)
When you -- two things that came to mind as you were talking, I heard, um, I was actually listening to another podcast over the weekend and I was talking about Sabbath begins the week. Not ends it and that's the whole premise of like starting from rest. Um, and then I also love like work, you know, Adam and Eve worked in the garden, like work is of the Lord and um, it can be beautiful. Okay. So you've kind of talked on your philosophy when I ask this question, but I'd love to hear you talk practically about, um, you know, in a world that asks us to do it all really well, um, work, be a mom, play with kids, keep the house cleaned all the things, especially with your background and how you've had to deal in the past with getting overstressed and overworked. I don't love the word balance. I love the word harmony. So how do you find harmony? And I feel like you've talked about that a little bit, but if you have some practical ways that you kind of recalibrate yourself, if you're feeling out balance. Could you talk about that?

Ashlyn Carter: (33:11)
Okay. So good. I do struggle with this all the time, cuz the world is very loud when it comes to telling you that you need to be like really good at both or yeah, I think my second kid helped me figure it out a little bit more because I think that naturally invited more chaos, which helped me let go even more. But um, oh, I was gonna say this too. I, the, I should have mentioned, um, Tim Keller's Every Good Endeavor. I used to try to read that once a year. On when we were talking about like work and rest so good. It was very helpful if that idea interests you, but um, it's helped me hire more over time because I've realized like, what are the things that only Ashlyn can do? And I have them on a sticky note in front of me. You're I know you're a fan of, um, Mike

Shanna Skidmore: (34:00)
Michalowicz.

Ashlyn Carter: (34:00)
I was gonna say, I dunno how to say his name, Mike Michalowicz. So, you know, you're familiar with like the Queen Bee role, like the things that only you can do. And so it's like every year, the amount, the number of things that are put on my plate grow, but the things that only I can do kind of stay the same. So I just have to figure out what are rhythms and routines that take care of the other things, whether it's, whether it's letting it go, whether it's outsourcing or delegating or finding just a system and a rhythm for it in our household. So I think that like, I, I have to keep, and I also have a quote on my desk, "ruthlessly ignore that, which does not matter" because I am constantly distracted by shiny objects or things I should do. But, some things that have helped me like practically, I know I've like made YouTube videos on some of this stuff, but figuring out routines and home routines that are just so helpful, like you've talked about, I know we both do it. Like we have something we eat on every day on Monday, I cook something out of a Southern living magazine on Tuesdays it's tacos, Wednesdays, it's some kind of like Asian or Thai food or something. Thursdays is leftovers or takeout. Fridays is pizza or somewhere in town. Um, Sundays, I usually cook something too from a magazine or mom's recipes or something like that. But like that, those are the rhythms that I go by. Um, I have things I do on every day of the week. Wednesdays starts with the double that's the day I like water the inside plants, water things. Thursdays starts with the th that's the day. I write thank you notes. Like just little things that I always do on that day. So I have the idea that, okay, this thing popped into my life that needs to get done, plop it on the day where I get those tasks done. Um, I love Michael Hyatt's stuff. I use his planner. I've done. I I'm just, I, I use my planner all the time. I do weekly reviews and check-ins, set my plan for the week set my big three. Um, I also have, my desk really is covered in sticky notes, Peter Drucker and the effective executive. He talks about starting every day with two thoughts, number one, what needs to be done? And number two, what is right for the enterprise? So, whereas I like having a big three I've learned instead, cuz he advocates more for two big things a day that an executive should do. I do sit down. I'm like, what are the two things? There's So there's so much vying for my attention in my work day. What are the two things that have to be done? I've gotta get those done. In the morning, I have about an hour allotted the first hour when I sit down where I, um, and I start with the inside out. So I start with myself and I pray. I open up a Spotify working playlist. I figure out those two things that need to get done. I look at my calendar, get set. Then I start to like grow the circle a little bit. And I talk to my team. I talk to my executive assistant, I check slacker. Then I'll grow the circle a little bit more and I'll check email just to make sure there's nothing like crazy that she's popped into my folder that I need to get addressed. Then I go into what I call my coach, Julie calls it this and I'm stealing the word cause it's so good. Sacred Time. Like the hours from nine to 12, I guard those fiercely. If, if between those hours I don't get the things done. Like those big two things done, we don't make money. Like that has to be that's my Queen Bee role, the things only I can do. Um, and then after that, that's the whole maker in the morning manager in the afternoon. Greg, why am I blinking on his last name? He wrote essentialism. He talks about that

Shanna Skidmore: (37:24)
McKeown

Ashlyn Carter: (37:25)
Yes. Yes. Greg McKeown. Um, so that helps me a lot to kind of put my, my,

Shanna Skidmore: (37:31)
My other favorite book

Ashlyn Carter: (37:32)
Yes. So good. So good. I should read those like all once a year.

Shanna Skidmore: (37:35)
Yeah, those are so good. So, you know, what's funny. I do like Mike Michalowicz. I only have read one book of his, so I don't actually know the queen bee analogy. I mean, I've gotten it from what we talked about, but in the blueprint model we do the worker bee. So it's kind of like the opposite. So what are all the roles that someone else can do the worker bee? So that's, that's so funny. We, I think we have very similar mindsets, same with Greg McKeown. I love him. I love that so much. Ashlyn, just kind of practically speaking. How often would you say that you revisit your rhythms because you know, business shifts. And so many different seasons.

Ashlyn Carter: (38:10)
Quarterly. I totally used to do like the beginning of the year and then I it's it's maternity leaves and babies that taught me. No, because I mean, you know, this they'll sleep on the same schedule for like two, three months and then it's broken and it's completely different cuz they've grown you know, three inches. And so that means like everything's different or their feeding, their eating will be completely off, um, summer versus, you know, fall school schedules, all that stuff impacts it. So I, I like rhythms too. Like even my morning routine that stayed the same and my work to rest, wind down and my rest to work, wind up. Like even though the bones of those have stayed the same, I let myself go through times where they are skeletons of what they were and that's okay. Like that's just, that's okay. If it has to look like that for a little while or um, so yeah, every quarter I sit down and I rewrite those routines. I look at my dream week that I have set up and I rearrange it. So yeah, those are I, I come in at least quarterly with the idea, if this has to be gutted that's okay.

Shanna Skidmore: (39:11)
Yeah. And tell me just mentally Ashlyn. I would love to hear, you know, now you have two babies. I feel like I've gotten to walk with you through such different life seasons. Talk to me, how do you just hold, you know, and find that place. We're both like, I remember those days of uh, three inch high heels before I got bunions and power suits and you know, I'm, I have that ambition inside of me. How do you wrestle and find this place of contentment? You know, what's the, what's that place of ambition and contentment where they meet? How do you, how do you find that for you?

Ashlyn Carter: (39:48)
When I'm off, I am off. Um, I one time, one and I don't tell, I told this story maybe one time cuz it hurts to repeat, but I was driving in the, this is when Tal was probably two and it was, I was back from maternity leave. So we was, I was back in like kind of a hustle mode trying to get back on the, I remember I said to so many people, I probably said it to you. I feel like I keep getting on a pony and it buck me off on the floor and get on it again. It bucks me off that was like coming back from maternity leave the second time. So it just, it was, you know, trying to get resynced with the team and everything. And I'm driving Tal and Liza to nursery. And I was talking to Tal and I said like, what are some things daddy likes Golf, you know, baseball, football. He's just calling out things. Daddy likes. And um, what are some things Tal likes and he's naming out pretty much the same activities. And then he said, I said, what are some things mommy likes? And he said work. And then I said, okay, what else? And like that like dagger to the heart. I was like, what else? And he said, talking to people at work and I was like, oh my gosh It's like double whammy. I texted, Wes after I sobbed the whole way home, I thought something has to change again. So that, I mean, I think like going, just remembering, he sees me at that and, and my mom helped put me, she was like, well, he, he doesn't see you like needlepointing or gardening or, you know. Going to a tennis lesson or whatever, where he sees Wes do some of those things. So that helped. But remembering that when they're 19, you'll have spent about 50% of your parent rearing time with them. That's big because like that those moments are so fleeting. So I really, I just think you

Shanna Skidmore: (41:36)
Do you feel like, do you feel like that's changed your business goals, Ashlyn, like knowing that, or I just feel like I'm all the time we talk about this. It's like

Ashlyn Carter: (41:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (41:47)
A breaking down almost of, you know, it's that ambition sometimes. It feels like just kind of putting a cap on it.

Ashlyn Carter: (41:56)
I feel right now I'm in a place where I, it doesn't change my goals. It changes how I'm gonna get there. Where I would white needle, I mean, white, white knuckle, so many things I've gotten to a place now where I'm like, there is only, there is one way, there is only one way and I've gotta let go of these things. And like, let, I've gotta let go of it. Like that's the only way. Um, I've gotta hand it to somebody else to get done or we're just gonna have to go slower. I think I've learned to get really comfortable with moving slow, really comfortable. Cause it's, I'm not gonna lie. It's very difficult to come back from a maternity leave and look around and feel like the world has moved on without you, everybody. Like, there's a bunch of young guns who hopped in and they don't have, they're not married. They don't have kids. Like they have all the time that you used to have, you know, working on your laptop until 2:00 AM and they're doing it now. And to just feel like, okay, I'm a has-been. I think just, yeah, I realize I love the phrase too. I put it in an email recently, like I'm playing chess, not checkers. Like I'm gonna play the long game on this as a, my business is a financial asset for my family and I, and that means it's probably gonna look, it's gonna look how we want it to, and that may mean growing slower. Um, and that's a, or growing little differently to than how the world does, but that's okay to me.

Shanna Skidmore: (43:19)
I think it's challenged me being a, a new mom, like to even get more strategic. And I love that analogy of chess because chess is all about strategy. Um, and so you don't have to necessarily put a cap on your goals, but you have to think about them super strategically. And for me, knowing my values, just going back to, I will choose more time with Madeline over more time with work and that like, we still have to pay our bills, but that might shift some things.

Ashlyn Carter: (43:50)
Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (43:51)
I love that so much.

Ashlyn Carter: (43:52)
Yeah. Well that time is so precious with them. And I, some, I read like something, I'm sure it was like Huffington Post, like top tweets of the week or something from parents. But the idea that, um, like if you wanna really enter into some good parenting time, pretend you are looking back on this moment as like an 80 year old and your 80 year old self is looking at you parent this kid. And it's like the, the times that you're like, oh my gosh, if they throw turkey on the floor at one more time, he's like, I'm, that's so gross. But like, you just, it gives you a different mindset when you're in those kind of gritty moments.

Shanna Skidmore: (44:26)
Yeah. So much pressure though. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I gotta do this well, but I'm trying. Yeah. That's so helpful. Okay. Let's let's just go into, I have some quick fire questions I wanna ask you. And I'm gonna start with one just cause we didn't, I haven't asked you this yet, so I'm gonna shift them around a little bit, but I would love to hear first. Just what is the best thing that you have learned about money?

Ashlyn Carter: (44:50)
The best thing I've learned about money is that it's not, um, a limited, it's not limited. It's uh, I have this picture too. My coach, Julie was, she demonstrated it with her body and it was so helpful, but she like stood and she said, a lot of us think like money is just flowing down, straight down, like in a line. And she said, what it's it's flowing anyway, what you have to do is stand in the right stream. So stop. I think I have thought like money's hungry, hungry hippo games. And like there's a limited amount of dollars going around and like, they're gonna get captured by somebody else. And then I don't get them. But if you can learn to stand in the right conduits, like I wish I could come up with an analogy. Maybe like she said, but I just have this picture of her moving her body. Like she would go around the room and stand in different places. And if you're standing in a place where you've figured out product market fit, where you've got everything dialed in, the audience wants it, the messaging is tight. Like the money can just flow. Like it becomes a conduit where people are willing to pay for the things that are problems in their lives. And yeah, that, I mean, I just, I think it's because I, I grew up from, in with parents who were both my dad's a small business owner now, but he didn't own the company at the time. And so I just, it was kind of like a, well, this is what we have. So make it work where now I have more of a mindset, like, okay, that's what I want. How do I get it? I'm gonna. I'm gonna figure out a path to get it.

Shanna Skidmore: (46:15)
Oh, I love that so much. That's so good. Ashlyn. Okay. Second question. This is a hard one. Um, would you say there's any regrets, which I dislike that word so much, but maybe anything you wish you could do over?

Ashlyn Carter: (46:30)
I held onto calligraphy for a long time out of fear. I also, sometimes I would hire and keep someone in a position because I wanted, what was I, I saw the potential that they could be, but they weren't getting there fast enough. There is a lot of truth to the adage, hire slow, fire fast. So I think there's been times I've cost the business money by keeping someone on or in a spot where they didn't, they weren't suited to be in that spot. I've cost us money. And so I think that that's part of business, like it's part of the price of doing business is I actually learned it from Nancy Ray. The, um, she cited, can't remember the original source, but it's like use a company can lose $20,000 on a bad hire. Um, which I think is very true. So I've learned, but I had to learn how to do that. You know, there's no other way than experience.

Shanna Skidmore: (47:31)
That's why I so dislike that word regret because

Ashlyn Carter: (47:34)
Exactly

Shanna Skidmore: (47:35)
You have to go through -- Everybody in business, no matter how much you study or, I mean, it's fair lessons. You have to learn the hard way. Yes. It's just the way it's gonna be. So thank you for sharing that. Okay. What would you say has been a big win or kind of a pinch me moment in your business?

Ashlyn Carter: (47:55)
I definitely okay. I have two. So the first one, I mean the magazine lover in me, who I filed magazines chronologically under my bed growing up, like I want Devil Wears Prada when that came out, I was like, this, this is the beacon of exactly like what I would like to do with my life. So magazines have a big spot in my heart. And I, um, I was, I got a feature in Forbes, it was their digital online publication, but that was like, that was crazy. That was really cool. And then I also had a picture of a big client, um, and me, I met her on my desk for a year because I kept thinking, I'll say her name, it's Amy Porterfield. I used to just listen to her podcast. And I, as I was building my business, I wanted to, I kept thinking, I wanna build a business that's worthy of like Amy Porterfield's dollars. And I just kept thinking, I was like, build that kind of productized service, build that kind of product. And then one day through the grapevine, they reached out and I did a project for them. And I was like, wow, I did it. Like I wanted to build a business that they would come to and they did. So that was, those were probably the two pinch me moments.

Shanna Skidmore: (49:05)
That's awesome. Yes, gosh, how long have you had your business now? So 2016.

Ashlyn Carter: (49:12)
Six years? Yes. 6.5. It'll be seven in February.

Shanna Skidmore: (49:14)
Yeah. That's amazing. Okay. Best advice you've ever received.

Ashlyn Carter: (49:19)
Best advice I've ever received. That is a hard one. I'll go back to the "ruthlessly ignore that,which does not matter". I just, it, the, the amount of focus that it takes the whole what's that Steve Jobs quote, like every, no is defended by every yes. What is it sacrificing a thousand nos or whatever is like, whenever you say no to something -- yes to something you're saying no to other things like keeping that mindset with my time. Like, I know you have the time bank inside, um, the blueprint model. Knowing that my hours will be used on something my hour. Here's another tip, like having your hourly rate on a sticky note on your desk, like what it costs, what every hour as you, the business owner costs your business. That is a big cause I, I am, especially the more my team has grown. I will get in the weeds of like trying to dig in and help them solve problems. Or honestly, sometimes get in where I don't, I don't need to be like, I don't, they're fine on their own I'm medling like, I don't, I just, I need to let it go. Like they have it and I'm trying to help, but just you trusted them, let them do it. I sound like a terrible manager. I, I feel like I don't do that all the time, but I try to get, sometimes I'm like, I'm thinking I'm helping and I'm like, just Ashlyn you, you can help them by being quiet right now and going into your office and doing your work and not having like water cooler time. So yeah, just the, the whole mindset. I just, I sometimes I think part of the game of entrepreneurship is like having the wherewithal to make your brain focus and like stay in the game with grit. Even when you get pushed down, like get back in there and keep focusing. That's the game of entrepreneurship and it's very difficult, at least for me. So, but that learning how to focus and any facet of advice I've been given about that is has helped me in spades.

Shanna Skidmore: (51:11)
Okay. This is my last quick fire question. And then I wanna circle back to something. What are you working on now or what is one resource that you're loving lately?

Ashlyn Carter: (51:21)
Okay. I'll do, I'll do, what are we working on now? So I finally have a director of marketing in my business. I was, I guess it's kind of good. So there, my friend, Veronica has a program called Rainmaker Residency. And so that's something I'm loving now because I brought, um, a gal along and we're going through it together. I have been the only one thinking about marketing metrics and sales along with being the talent and the visionary. And the curriculum creator for the whole time in business. And so to be able to have somebody that can help lasso the marketing stuff is so great. So we're planning to relaunch and open copywriting for creatives in September. And I have super fun. Like I'm not gonna talk about it too much cuz I don't wanna give it away, but a really fun OnRamp that I'm excited for. Cause I was thinking like, how can we have fun again with our marketing and our launches? And um, just like if we were gonna dream, what would that look like? So I'm so excited about the second half of 2022, because I'm getting I now I have the white space to do some campaigns where I can like dream a little bit and make it fun.

Shanna Skidmore: (52:23)
Isn't that fun? I love that and it just becomes, like you said, going back to the beginning of starting your business, you have the stars in your eyes. You have all these big dreams it's before you get knocked down a little bit. Um, and so to feel that breath of fresh air again is just, you have new ideas. Okay. I don't know if you're okay. Talking about this, if you aren't just say move on. But you you know, love numbers and I, I wanna give people a picture of what's possible. So yeah. You're six and a half years in. Your first year, you said you did about 60 in revenue. Will you talk through what your business looks like now? You can talk through offers. You've mentioned those a little bit, but, and you said one-on-one is still about 30% or the agency side of your revenue, but what do your numbers look like now and what do you feel like's made that possible? i.e. Is it relationships with people or marketing or Facebook ads or, you know, what's grown your company?

Ashlyn Carter: (53:18)
Okay. I'll always hands down the answers, relationships, not like being, getting in the room. And I say this as I'm a major introvert and I like to focus, but like time spent like going somewhere, being in a master, mastermind's huge for business growth, idea growth. I will always pay for coaching in my business. I have to have a coach, um, to be that like someone I bounce ideas off of. So that's grown my business without even question. But so we grew incrementally. I think my first $500,000 year was 2018 and then kept growing, kept growing

Shanna Skidmore: (53:56)
That's after launching CfC. So you did that in what? 2017.

Ashlyn Carter: (54:00)
I launched CfC for the first time in my first year in business, 2016

Shanna Skidmore: (54:04)
Ashlyn! Crazy girl.

Ashlyn Carter: (54:06)
I I know, but I built it. I built it because remember we had like more and at that point I was the only writer and there was so many inquiries in this creative bubble and I was like, okay, I can't service all this. I have no idea how to hire. That sounds terrifying. Let me just like show y'all what I do in this process. Yeah. So the first iteration launched 2016 and I developed it and figured it out more so 2018 was the first yeah, like $500,000 year. I remember that cuz my Tal was born in December and then 2020 was my first million dollar year. And that year 2021, I had Liza and took off three months for maternity leave and I, this was difficult it's I was talking to a friend about this recently, cuz she's kind of going through it now. It's difficult to have to make less than you made the previous year. Yeah, because you're like, what's wrong with me like that? I did it wrong, but I was like, you know what? I took off time to build my family. I'm so glad I did that. And then I also realized this is something I've learned through coaching. At the million dollar point, things start to break a little bit. Because your whole profit margin that I have maintained and I learned it from you and I love it that 40/60, like I try to stay at that. It becomes more 50/50 over a million creeping up.

Shanna Skidmore: (55:27)
Because of your team.

Ashlyn Carter: (55:28)
Pardon?

Shanna Skidmore: (55:30)
Because of your team.

Ashlyn Carter: (55:31)
Because I, yes, I was gonna say, because you start having to invest more in team to manage things and that's like, you have to get to a point I've realized where it's like, do you wanna grow that whatever percent every year? Or do you wanna maintain a lifestyle business? I wanna maintain a lifestyle business. Like this is I there's definitely a ceiling. I know that if we go over that I will not. It will like the ratio like gets jacked up. And I won't be able to kind of live like I want to, but I wanna push towards the goal that I foresee it as. And I always love the advice, like, like read the book, Built to Sell it's. So like just build a business that functions without you or can run itself when you can't try to like try to make your, what if your business were gonna look attractive to an investor, what would it have to look like? That's great advice. Even if you never intend on selling, but those are some things I think I've I think about.

Shanna Skidmore: (56:26)
I love that so much. And I, I love what you said. That's so true about when revenue isn't where you want it to be, or it's less than the year before. But you know, we talk about this all all the time, but what I always go back to like, what is enough? What is enough for my family?

Ashlyn Carter: (56:39)
What is enough. What is enough? Yeah. And I knew like that year, like everything was like, it was vanity metrics. After that, like we had covered what we needed to do. We did great. Like I, why did I wanna break a million again? Because I wanted two years back to back doing it. Well, that's a dumb reason. Like that's not,

Shanna Skidmore: (56:55)
It's a feeling. It's emotion. It makes you feel bad. Okay. I love this. And I want you to end just telling me and everybody listening. What would you say to Ashlyn back in February of 2016 on day one? What would you tell her?

Ashlyn Carter: (57:12)
Hold on girl. Trust God. He is gonna be there in the valleys and in the mountaintops. Hold on. Like it is the ride of so cheesy to say it's the ride of a lifetime, but it is entrepreneurship is the weirdest psychological experiment I would willingly do on myself all over again if I had to, because I've learned so much about myself, it's not just about myself though. I've learned like how to cultivate something and hopefully a legacy for my family and, um, make as much of an impact as I can with, um, the things that I feel are, um, most important in life. So I would just say, hold on, like I just remember, so I remember looking at the ceiling thinking like, huh, what should I do today? It's cool to think back.

Shanna Skidmore: (57:59)
Do I put my pencil skirt on yes or no?

Ashlyn Carter: (58:02)
Yeah. Right, right.

Shanna Skidmore: (58:03)
Ashlyn, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. It's beautiful to hear your journey. I know it's gonna encourage people listening and it encouraged me. I'm just thankful for your friendship. And um, thank you so much.

Ashlyn Carter: (58:16)
Back at you bud. Love ya.

Shanna Skidmore: (58:17)
Love ya. Hey wildflower. You just finished another episode of Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. Head over to considerthewildflowerspodcast.com for show notes, resource links and to learn how you can connect with Ashlyn. One final thought -- credit, unknown. Some say Steven Covey. Some say Thomas Merton. I'll just assume someone really smart. "As you climb the ladder of success. Be sure it's leaning against the right building". Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time.