004. Paige Brunton : How to Design a Business you Truly Enjoy

From zero job prospects living in a country where she didn’t speak the same language to a multi-six figure business within just a few years, Paige Brunton’s story is fascinating! 

In today’s interview, Paige is sharing in nuts and bolts detail how she created her business from idea formation to scalable products, how she grew from her first $500 paid client project to getting an inquiry a day (read again: an INQUIRY A DAY!!) and charging nearly $10k per project less than two years later. But hands down my favorite part of our conversation is hearing her talk about how she intentionally builds FUN and JOY into her business.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/paige-brunton

Transcript

Paige Brunton: (00:00)
The longer I've been in business, the more I've thought about like, what do I really want to be doing? Like, there was a point at which I was like, okay, I've made enough money to like buy a house and do a huge renovation and all these things. And then I still had to really start questioning, like, what am I like, why am I doing this? of course you have like a team that you have to pay for and you have business expenses and your own life to pay for and everything. But at some point it really, you start to wonder like, is all the time which I'm spending on this is this the thing which brings me the most joy?

Shanna Skidmore: (00:28)
You're listening to Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast, episode four. Today, I'm hanging out with my new friend, Paige Brunton, and I have a quick backstory before we dive in. So let me take you all the way back to 2017. I was a keynote speaker at a conference for creative entrepreneurs. I gave my signature talk about defining enough during which I showed a graphic, comparing Instagram following to company profit. So this was actual data from my clients. Fast forward a few years later, and I received an email from a business owner who had heard that talk. Spoiler alert, that was Paige. Her email said you have such a unique insight into people's business finances, which most people don't have. Her words really stuck with me. The truth is she's absolutely right. For the past 15 years, I've had the amazing opportunity to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world and see the real behind the highlight reel. I think these stories deserve to be shared. Numbers, balance, redefining success, managing mom life and CEO life. You know, like all the things you talk about with your business bestie over coffee, cry about in the shower, or tell your financial advisor, hello me, while you're trying to create a money plan. I want to create this place where we share the highs and lows and the messy middle moments of this beautiful journey called entrepreneurship. And that's exactly how Consider the Wildflowers the podcasts came to be. So in a way, we all have Paige to think for this very podcast. Paige's story is nothing short of fascinating. From zero job prospects, living in a country where she didn't even speak the same language, to building a multi six figure business within just a few years. And while I of course love all the numbers we dig into during today's talk, my favorite part was actually hearing Paige talk about how she intentionally builds fun and joy into her business, which is just something I don't hear talked about often enough. If you dig professional bios, here goes: Paige Brunton is an online educator helping aspiring female entrepreneurs learn how to build life-giving, profit-generating businesses through her empowering step-by-step programs for web designers and course creators. Her own online business idea came to her after hopping on a one-way flight to Germany for love. With zero connections, zero German skills and zero job prospects, she had to get creative. What started out as just a way to pay the bills quickly grew into a fully booked out business, paying off over $45,000 in student debt and making $10,000 per month, her norm. Fast forward, just a few years to where she has now scaled her business to over $2 million in online sales, designing an everyday life better than her wildest dreams. All without selling her soul on social media. Paige believes we all deserve to have the skills necessary to be self-reliant, and that with a little bit of education, you can create extraordinary upgrades in your own life. Today, she devotes her time to helping deserving female business owners everywhere do just that. Okay. I know you're ready. I know you are. So let's dig in.

Shanna Skidmore: (03:26)
Hey, it's Shanna. And this is Consider the Wildflowers the podcast. For the past 15 plus years, I've had the honor to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world. As a former fortune 100 financial advisor turned business consultant, I have a unique opportunity to see the real behind the highlight reel. I'm talking profit and loss statements, unpaid taxes, moments of burnout, and those of utter victory. Or as my husband says, the content, everyone is wondering, but not many are talking about. And now I'm bringing these private conversations to you. Hear the untold stories of how industry leaders, founders, and up and coming entrepreneurs got their start, the experiences that shaped them, and the journey to building the brands they have today. Stories that will inspire and reignite, encourage to redefine success and build a life and business on your own terms. Welcome wildflower. I'm so glad you're here.

Shanna Skidmore: (04:20)
Okay, Paige, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today, just to hear more of your story. Just say hello to everybody. And I just wanna kick us off. Will you just take us all the way back to the days before you even had your business? Like, what were you up to? Tell me about Paige?

Paige Brunton: (04:36)
Yes. Thank you, Shanna so much for having me. I am absolutely so thrilled to be here and to chat with your people and you. So yes, myself before my business, I was in university. Um, so I'm Canadian, but I went down to the US to go to school. I went to Ole miss in Mississippi for my master's degree. And while I was in school, I had built a travel blog just for fun, cuz I just really felt like doing that. Um, I was watching everyone else do travel blogs and I was like, I wanna try that as well. So I built myself a website and had this idea in my mind of like, Ooh, I, I spent all of my time. I spent honestly more time like redesigning my website than I did actually like blogging about travel. And so I realized like I really get joy out of making pretty things on the internet basically. And I wonder if someone would pay me to do this, like, could this be a side hustle on the side of my master's degree? So I kind of started to like explore the waters. I had no idea, like I was a university student. I had no idea like how to find clients or how to like even like properly learn website design well enough that you could build websites for people, but I just decided to like go for it. And that was very convenient because in that master's degree, I met a very charming German guy at the bar who is now my husband. So I moved over to Germany to be with him. And once I got to Germany, I quickly realized like my job options here are pretty much nothing. Like if you don't speak fluent German in specifically the city I was in, we weren't in Berlin, not in Munich. So not like one of the really international places, I had no job options other than like working in an Irish pub. That was about the extent of my job options,

Shanna Skidmore: (06:11)
Which would've been fun.

Paige Brunton: (06:12)
Yeah, It would've been fun. I was like, I have a lot of student debt pay off. I went to university for six years, undergrad master's degree costs a bit of money. Um, and so that didn't feel like a really good option to me. And I've always been a very like ambitious person. So that was also a factor of me not being stoked on the Irish pub. And so, yeah. So then I determined like, well, you know what, I built a few websites for fun. And like I actually had gotten a couple paying, like web design projects. Um, when I was in my master's degree. So I decided to go all in on the web design business thing and it was not like it's kind of a short part of the story now, but honestly, like that was a very challenging time in my life. It was very overwhelming to try to figure out like, how do I make money on the internet? How do I get clients when I'm halfway across the world?

Shanna Skidmore: (07:02)
Yeah.

Paige Brunton: (07:03)
And how do I build a business so I can stay in this country and be with the person who I wanna be with. So yeah, that was the start of the web design business. It has morphed over time into more the courses direction. And so now I do a lot of educating people on how to build web design businesses. And also how to build courses now as well. So basically as I've learned things in my life, in my business, I go ahead and turn those into like, here's how to do that yourself too. So I've now helped thousands of students to go ahead and build their own web design businesses as well. So yeah, that is a little bit of the background of the business.

Shanna Skidmore: (07:34)
That's so cool. So tell me like what year was all this? So it's 2022 now. So when was all this happening and when were you in university?

Paige Brunton: (07:44)
Oh, what year did I graduate? I think I graduated in 2016.

Shanna Skidmore: (07:51)
Okay.

Paige Brunton: (07:52)
Yeah. I graduated with my master's in 2016. I'd have to go look back at a Facebook photo to be a hundred percent sure. But I think that was 2016.

Shanna Skidmore: (07:58)
So you were, yeah. So you were doing the travel blog. What did you just love travel? Like what made you want to do that?

Paige Brunton: (08:06)
I just love travel. And during, um, one of my exam periods, when I should have been studying, I just binged a bunch of travel blogs instead, cuz that's a fun thing to me, um, which wasn't great for the exams. But anyways, I, yeah, I just loved the travel blogs. I loved reading them. I loved traveling myself. And so I figured like, you know what? This is so cool. I love these other people who are doing this. I wanna do this too. And that's basically how I yeah. Decided to start the travel blog.

Shanna Skidmore: (08:31)
And what platform did you use for your first website? Cause I know that was...

Paige Brunton: (08:36)
Yeah. I tested all the things. I ended up going with Squarespace. I tried a bunch of different platforms and really like compared them all and everything. And I just found that Squarespace was the one, which I could most easily take the idea, which I had in my mind and actually put it on a page. So yeah that's the one which I've used and loved for years now. Now I'm not, I mean, I teach people how to build design businesses on any platform, like how to get clients and how to manage contracts and get content from people that doesn't really matter which platform you're on. But me personally, I have always built my websites on Squarespace and I just creep my Facebook photos. Yes. It was 2016. I graduated in

Shanna Skidmore: (09:12)
That's so awesome. Okay. So how long into your travel blog were you like, I wanna actually love web design better. And I, I mean, how did you get those first clients and how did you even know how to charge them? I mean,

Paige Brunton: (09:27)
I had no idea how to, I had no idea how to charge them. So I charged like $500, which was an awful idea. Don't do that. But the first thing which I figured was like, I knew that, say I've thought through like, okay, if someone wants a web designer, like how do they find them? And I figured like ranking in Google for the term Squarespace website designer would be good, but I was like, that's a long way off. That's gonna be like a challenge to get there. So I looked at Etsy and I figured Etsy was a lot of like done for you digital products, but also a few web designers were advertising services on there. So I decided to test out posting on Etsy, and I figured I could rank, or I could like come up a lot easier at the top of the search results in Etsy than I could on Google. So that's the way I first advertised my web design services. It was fantastic. It got me my first, like I don't even maybe five or six clients or something. So I'm super happy that that worked out and everything. It's not a great platform stay on long term for sure. The average pricing on there is like so much lower than what's normal in the industry. And then also the fees that they take and everything are not fantastic. So I definitely learned, I had to get off of that. The next thing I did after that was I posted some design work on a website called dribble, dribble.com. And from there a website agency found me and they started giving me some website projects as well.

Shanna Skidmore: (10:42)
Wow. That's interesting. Yeah.

Paige Brunton: (10:44)
Yeah. And so that was good. I was again, super happy, super grateful that they would just send projects my way. But I was definitely thinking like, okay, I'm not loving going by their processes. Also not loving how much I'm getting paid out of like the total project. I think I was getting paid like 40% or something of what the client was paying. So significantly less than what I could have gotten if I was getting the clients myself. So eventually I, when I moved to Germany, I was like, okay, I'm going serious on the website thing. That's when I started blogging for my business, it seemed like everyone on the internet was saying, who had been halfway successful, was like, I blogged. And that grew my business. I was like, all right, well, if everyone says it, I'm gonna try it. So I did, um, I blogged twice a week, a blog post of like 2000 ish words, generally something Squarespace related or something website related. And I did that for months and months and months. And it was a slow build. Like a blog is not a get a client tomorrow situation. It's a get a client six months from now situation and then get a ton of clients all at once because you've ranked in Google. Yes. Um, so I actually did work my way to the top. When you search Squarespace website designer, I was the first actual Squarespace website designer who appeared. And that just led to literally like an inquiry a, a day. Which I clearly, as one person could not handle. And that's when I decided like courses might be a great idea.

Shanna Skidmore: (11:59)
Yeah. So all, so you moved to Germany, it sounds like 2016, 2017 timeframe. Serious about your business started blog, which, you know, what's interesting is a lot of my clients, my high earning seven figure eight figure clients were bloggers first. I mean, that's literally, many of them were like every single day writing something and I don't know, you know, that was a while back, you know, it might be different now, but I saw that success too, for sure. Okay. So how long did it all take, like time to get this traction? Was it six months? Was it a year? Um, tell me about that.

Paige Brunton: (12:38)
So I was still, so when I very first went full time with my business, I wanna say it was January, 2017. I'm pretty sure it was definitely in January. I think it was 2017. Yeah, no, it would've been yep. January, 2017. That's when I decided to go full-time with the business. I still had no idea what I was really doing. And that's when I also started blogging full-time or like I went ino business full-time and I also finally had time to blog because previous to that, I'd just been kinda like dabbling with things here and there, but I didn't really have enough time to do a proper marketing strategy. So it took months to get a first client through that blog. I definitely had an issue, like there's faster way to get clients, generally something like meeting people in person or something related to like going to a conference or event or networking something. And I was like, I'm in Germany, I don't speak German. So those are not options. So I was like, I have to do it. Something like internet marketing was my only option basically. And so I knew it was gonna be slow going slower than other people who Stacy, who was getting clients in five minutes from going to a rising tide society event. But I was like, that's the situation I'm in. I'm just gonna go for it. So it took me six months until I got a client through the blog. So it was like, I could see the traffic going up every month. I could see inquiries. Like people were then going to my services page. I was getting inquiries, but it took six months until I actually got a client through the blog. But after that was like the tipping point, I got the first client and then I just got like client after client, after client. Again, it was the fact that I finally ranked in Google for what I wanted to rank for. People were coming to the blog all the time and therefore going to my services page and inquiring and getting on consult calls with me and then actually booking with me. So it took a long time to build. And then again, it hit that like tipping point and just got craziness. And then it was within, I wanna say like a year after that, that I started the first course.

Shanna Skidmore: (14:23)
Like in 2018.

Paige Brunton: (14:25)
Yes. Yep. Correct.

Shanna Skidmore: (14:26)
Wow. And so your first course was teaching

Paige Brunton: (14:30)
How to build your own website on Squarespace. So I figured my thought process at the time was like, okay. I only have so much time to build websites for people. So, and now I'm getting this inquiry a day situation, which was fantastic, but it meant that I could q. up prices quite a bit. And then w. also get picky with clients I was taking, but then 3. I was like, okay, but even still, even then I'm still getting way more than I wanna take on or could literally even functionally take on. The thing at the time was to become a web design agency. That's what, like all the other businesses were kind of going in that direction who were getting really successful. But I just knew myself. I was like, I do not enjoy managing humans. That is not my idea of a good time.

Paige Brunton: (15:09)
I also, I don't know. It just feels like a lot of appointments and meetings and stuff I had no interest in doing. So I was like, I need to find another way to scale this, which is not me hiring other designers and then managing other designers, cuz that doesn't sound like. That doesn't sound like joy-giving to me at all. So I thought about like templates or courses seemed like other good options. And so I went for the course route, so I created a course Square Secrets that I still have it to this day. And that is all about how to build your really amazing, nothing like the template squarespace website. I feel like so many people, they go into squarespace and they're like, oh, I just dropped my content into the template. But then it comes out looking just like the template. And I'm like, no, you're doing it wrong. It would be unique and creative and custom and amazing if you have done it correctly. So it goes a lot into like the design best practices. It goes into the strategy of website. So it actually works for your business and books out your business. We go into SEO and then we also go into the actual like Squarespace tech and really like hacking Squarespace to create really unique, amazing designs. So that is Square Secrets. That was the first course I created.

Shanna Skidmore: (16:07)
Okay. So tell me about, I mean you really did a one-on-one service first. This is exactly how I did it as well. I did, one-on-one got really, really big, really fast and was like, how can I duplicate this? So my program, The Blueprint Model is teaching people what I used to do. One-on-one so it's kind of similar. It's like you duplicated Paige by creating square secrets. I mean that's how you did it. Tell me about the transition though, from going from one-on-one service over to that one to many, I mean that's a completely different business model and I don't know about you, but it smacked me in the face like, wow, we're doing this different now.

Paige Brunton: (16:47)
Yeah. It's very different. So I think the hardest point is the, that point right there, which I was at was like, I was creating content to build the email list, which is necessary to launch a course. Now this is kind of different than most people cuz again, most people who sell one to one services, they just do some sort of like in-person networking type thing. And that's like enough to book out a service based business. But when you wanna sell something on mass, you need to do like a mass marketing strategy, which is something like ads or content creation or social media or something like that. PR, those types of things. And so the really challenging point was like building the email list that I had enough people to like successfully go the course creator route, but then also creating the course while you're also serving your one to one clients like don't get me wrong. I was working like constantly. Like, I don't wanna make that sound easier than it was like, there was so much work that went into like making it possible to make the switch over to courses. So that was, I definitely work way less now. And like you do get to the point, like the course creator dream that everyone thinks of is like chilling on a beach, sipping margaritas. And you can do that, but that's definitely not the case 24/7, but I definitely can work way less hours now and just have way more freedom in my day than I did when I was one to one services.

Shanna Skidmore: (18:03)
Five years in though. Five years in.

Paige Brunton: (18:06)
Exactly.

Shanna Skidmore: (18:07)
Yeah. Okay. So I've been wondering this ever since we started talking, what did you go to university for?

Paige Brunton: (18:13)
Oh, that's a great question. I went to university for recreation and leisure. So that is awesome. Basically the like play and fun is what I went to university for.

Shanna Skidmore: (18:25)
Okay. But now you're creating that life for yourself. Which is awesome. But Paige like how did you learn all of these things? Like how did you take courses? Is it just in your brain? Tell me.

Paige Brunton: (18:37)
No, definitely a lot of online courses. Like I am such a big advocate of online courses because that's exactly how I've built all these things. Like I don't have a business background, I don't have a marketing degree. Like I studied the most kind of what most people think is a nonsense degree, but like I there's no way I would've figured these. I mean yeah. Free content online. Like these podcast episodes or blog posts or YouTube videos, but also a heck of a lot of online courses. Like that's how I learned how to do every single thing in my business. When I started the web design business, the, there was nothing specific to how to start a web design business at the time. I took Marie Forleo's B School course. And I'm super grateful that I did cuz that just gave me like a, I had knew nothing about business. I knew nothing about like differentiating yourself or figuring out your services or what you're gonna offer or anything. So that was super helpful. And I've continued to since then, like I am a huge proponent of every time we wanna learn how to do anything. We're like sweet. Who is the like expert in that space who has the course on that. That's what we do even to this day. So we wanted to learn about YouTube. I found a YouTube course and took it immediately. Like I don't question buying courses anymore. Cause I know that like for us we implement and we get amazing return on them. So yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (19:45)
Yeah. That's amazing. If you're comfortable sharing this. I would love to hear that first year in business. So 2016. Doing your one-on-one services. Do you remember like let's talk through the numbers a little bit. Like how many clients do you, did you take on if you remember, like what were you charging? And then do you remember like your revenue that year? Just walk me through the numbers of that first year.

Paige Brunton: (20:08)
That was the year I was like doing a bit of the agency work that I was doing a bit of work myself. I know that was the year where like I started my services. I wanna say it like through myself, not through this agency, the agency, I think they would do like, I don't know, two to three grand, a website and I would be making like 40% of that. so again, they were taking a lot of it then once I went to go actually have my own services, I think then I got the, you know, confidence to be charging serious money also because I was like, this is my full-time thing now. Like I can't just be charging $500 a website. So I wanna say I was around like $2000, $2,500 for a website. Then I had a conversation with one of the guys who worked at the agency and he was like, Paige seriously, the like result that you provide for people, the websites that you create and also how fantastic you are to work with and how you do these so quickly, you need to double your price. And I was like, you're completely crazy. But the thought had been planted and within like a couple days I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna try it. And so I doubled my prices to like $5,000 a website and just kept going up from there actually. So the biggest website project, which I ever did was in the like $9,000 range, I think that was in like year two full time though that wasn't in year one. But yeah, in year one I wanna say I was starting around like two grand, a website, uped it to like five grand, a website

Shanna Skidmore: (21:21)
Paige. I'm gonna ask you a really hard question. Are you ready? Everyone listening is, is thinking how in the world. And is it just because you were getting so many inquiries? I mean, there are so many people, first of all, clearly you were, you had to be delivering an incredible product. Cause I get asked this question on it too. Cause I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I did everything right. But it just grew and grew and grew. And, and so I used to have a hard time helping people with marketing because I was just like, it just came really fast. So I know what I tell people now, but what would you say to somebody who's struggling to get clients or it's not growing? You know, they double their price and hearing crickets. What do you feel like it was working for you? Why did it work?

Paige Brunton: (22:02)
When it comes to doubling pricing and hearing crickets? So I've said this to a lot of my students. Like I doubled my prices and then they like get the idea planted and they're like, okay, I'm gonna try it. And the one thing which I've learned about pricing over the years is that if you were getting a ton of inquiries, like when I doubled the pricing, I saw a, I tracked every single week, how many inquiries I was getting and how many of those I was booking. And then I realized like I kept tracking it after I doubled the prices and realized like, there's literally no difference in the number of inquiries or in the percentage of people booking me. There is however, a difference in the like quality of client. So it just meant that like I got clients who had amazing like professionally taken photos, which meant I could build more beautiful websites. They also just took me a bit more seriously and my time seriously. Like I had situations before where like I would we'd have a, I don't know, I'd have a meeting with a client and then they just like forgot about it or whatever. Back in the day when I was charging $500 for a website. When you're charging five grand for a website or nine grand for a website, people are a lot more serious and they're a lot more like bought into the process and they take your recommendations a lot more seriously. So I have to say in terms of like doubling pricing and hearing crickets, like if you're getting consistent inquiries, then from what I've seen and also what my students have seen when a few of them have tested this too, is it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of the price. It just kind of changes who you get as clients. But yeah,

Shanna Skidmore: (23:22)
That's so interesting. I would say price is about perceived value. And so it's like when that perceived value is there, when they see the track record or the results or whatever, and for you, you just had a ton of inquiries coming in. Um, then walk me through, when you transitioned over, how quickly did you move out of one on one services or do you still offer that? Once you started doing the course.

Paige Brunton: (23:46)
Yes. So let's say in year two of that's when I started doing online courses, I still did client projects throughout that entire year. And then by year three, that's at the point at which it was like really not making any sense to keep doing client projects in terms of what the like course revenue was bringing in. Like I could just have so much more impact and help so many more people. And I really also like the idea personally of like when I started my business, I sure didn't have a few grand go drop on a website designer to like custom build me a website. So I also like the idea that now I had like an offering, which was also at a price point, which more people could obtain and could actually like get a fantastic website for the course was I think $500 or something when I started it. And so that also sat really well with me was the fact that I could help a lot more people at a much more affordable price point, not just the people who had 5, 7, 9 grand to drop on a website though. Yeah. It took year two was courses and clients. Year three was when I basically just went straight into courses

Shanna Skidmore: (24:45)
And tell me, how did it grow? Like tell me about the numbers, how many students cuz we were talking before, but you grew really fast. It grew really fast. So walk me through just how it grew fast.

Paige Brunton: (24:57)
I wanna say year... I say year three was like 500,000 in course, revenue,

Shanna Skidmore: (25:02)
2019?

Paige Brunton: (25:04)
2019 I think that's right. Yeah. and then 2020, 21 we're about like 700, 750,000 in course, revenue in those two years as well.

Shanna Skidmore: (25:13)
That's amazing. And what do you feel like you've done really well since the beginning of your business in all of these different facets?

Paige Brunton: (25:22)
I feel like I've been super consistent with my marketing strategies and that's been a huge benefit. So I've been consistent about like twice a week on that blog you could set your watch by it. Like there is always new content. It used to be Tuesday, Thursday now it's Monday, Thursday. Actually. We have also started getting into YouTube content as well, but I feel like I see a lot of other course creators. Like they relied a lot on ads, which just in the last year has been really, really difficult for a lot of people. And since iOS 14 that's become quite a big issue. We always focused on organic marketing strategies. That was super beneficial. And again, we were just super consistent with our content. Other people they like start and they stop and they try this and they try that and they don't really get traction in like anything. Whereas we've really like picked the one thing. We've definitely, we've tried other like marketing strategies and stuff. We have dabbled in ads and affiliate programs and that sort of thing. But we always like, we, we doubled down on what was working basically. And that for us was the blog for a really long time. And now also YouTube.

Shanna Skidmore: (26:22)
So has there ever been a time where you've questioned what you're doing or your strategies or just, have you ever burned yourself out? I mean, talk me through, I mean growing fast is. Feels like everybody's dream, but it comes with its own set of challenges.

Paige Brunton: (26:39)
Oh, totally, totally. There. I mean, I constantly like question if I did things right and like, oh, should I have believe me? Like I look at 2018 or 2019 ad prices. I was like, Ugh, I should have just thrown so much money at it, but now I look at the price and I'm like, oh, it's like way more expensive. Um, and so I look at people who built email list. Like I hear people who have like 200,000 person email us and I'm like how? And that it's always like, oh, I've ran a lot of ads in 2018. And I was like, oh, okay, great So yeah, I mean I have a hundred percent questioned is what I'm doing. Right. I also like I've had, well, you say it's going quickly. I don't know. Like I feel like I've had a very, nonsexy, very like just every week doing the, doing the work. Like it wasn't that much. There was never, well, I guess the revenue yeah really did take off. I feel like in terms of the, I don't know the work that I was doing, like it was the same thing in and out every single day. Pretty much. And then, I mean, in terms of like challenges that we've had along the way, coming back to the whole thing of like I knew back in the day, I didn't wanna manage a huge team as the business has grown. You can totally have less team when it comes to like a course business than an agency or something. But yeah. Growing and managing a team, I was absolutely right from the beginning. Like it is not the thing that brings me joy. I really struggled with having to suddenly I found at some point that I was just like, I can't do any of my own work cuz I'm just like answering questions and getting people things they need. And like, I don't know. I just got so wrapped up in like managing a team that I realized I literally had a team of three. And I was like, I need an online business manager because like I can't get anything done myself. Because I'm constantly managing this team. And so it felt so ridiculous that like you have such a small team and you need someone to manage them. But I was like, I can't handle this. This is not again, not what brings me joy. I can't focus on any of my own work. So I have to say if anything, like I have amazing people who work on my team. I am just not the person to manage them. And so that's one definite thing, which I feel like has been a real challenge for me compared to other people is like, it just is my nightmare to get on meetings constantly. And just like answer seven zillion questions.

Shanna Skidmore: (28:48)
Right. Oh same. I'm absolutely the same. You sound like such a self-motivated person. So ambitious. Like just hearing, I love your energy, but tell me what drives you? What, what gets you up and going to work? And I mean, you're right. Like you have day in, day out, consistency has sounds like what's built your business. What are you kind of doing it all for? You know, why did you want this business? What do you hope it brings for your life?

Paige Brunton: (29:16)
Yep. So I think so two answers to that question. The first answer is I really focus on doing the things that bring me joy. Like I'm genuinely excited. I'm excited about my business topics. I'm genuinely excited by the fun. Like, it feels like this like fun project, which somehow shoots money outta your laptop. Like that's what my business or tough times feels like. So it's just like this fun challenge which I get to work on. And I do enjoy the business topic as well. And there's been times where I was like, uh, I can't create another Squarespace tutorial. I've just done it for so long. And so when that's happened, I've had to be like, okay, if you don't enjoy it, like my husband, he's also, he's like, how do you like sit down every day and like motivate yourself to sit down like five work for myself, I'd never be working. And I was like, well, I think it's because I enjoy, like, I genuinely enjoy what I do. And coming back to this like team issue, I was like, this is not what I enjoy doing. And then I didn't wanna work at all. Cause I was like, I don't wanna deal with this. So I think really finding like the things that bring me joy in my business, I love my topics. I love educating people. I love content creation. I love creating content. Like that is a true joy for me. I love hosting challenges or trainings or webinars and those sorts of things. I love going on podcast episodes. So I've really worked at, and I think that's one thing which I had to realize was like, you need to spend more time doing the things that bring you joy. Otherwise you're not gonna have the motivation to work every single day. And so if there's something in my business, which is draining me, I literally write at the end of the year, every year I have my like away time. I go to a nice hotel and I reflect on the past year and I note down like, what did I enjoy doing? What did I hate doing? What felt hard? What felt like awful. And I really look at that and I'm like, okay, how can I get rid of those things off my plate? Because I know that I will just avoid working. If those things stay on my plate. If that makes sense.

Shanna Skidmore: (31:01)
It makes 100 absolute sense. Yes that's and it's, I, I love hearing you say that because I don't think people talk about that enough. Because we feel like there's this list of we should be doing, we should be doing, we should be doing and it's drudgery if you don't like to do it. Which one thing which we did not talk about before, but I'm interested because I'm off social media as well. And I think that you are off social media. Yep. So I would love to hear is that kind of, part of what you discovered you didn't like, or for me it just wasn't a great or efficient use of my time for marketing. So,

Paige Brunton: (31:37)
Yep. So it's both, it's absolutely both 1. I hate Instagram. Like I will just openly say that, like I do not enjoy Instagram the few, few times, so I haven't posted anything on Instagram in like years. Like I have not had the app on my phone for well over a year now. So it's been a good long time where I've been off the Instagram train before that I was like, oh I should, you should do it. And then we actually tracked at one point I was like, okay, I don't enjoy doing this. And I wonder if it's really driving results of my business. And so we started trying to figure out like, how could we track, like how many sales come from Instagram versus like email list or whatever. We never actually like a hundred percent nailed that. But like from the things that we did try to test and figure out email list, there was one time. I think that's how we did it. One time was like, we ran a sale where I would go on Instagram, do a few lives and do questions and talk about the course and welcome students on the wall and everything. And then drive people to go purchase. And we didn't have the ability to track how many were going through there. But then we did another launch where we just didn't do that. And we didn't post on Instagram at all. And it made absolutely no difference. And I was like, sweet, I don't need to do that anymore. And so when yeah, I went off Instagram, we saw absolutely no change in the business at all. And I was like, hallelujah, because I don't enjoy doing this. And I have a friend who she recently launched a course. I think she got like maybe a hundred students or something into it. And she said, and she's a huge, huge Instagram following. And then she has a much smaller email list. And she was saying she actually tracked, I think she got like, she created coupon codes or something like email10 and Instagram10 or something. So she could track where they were coming from. And she said like one student came from Instagram and the rest came from email. So like, I absolutely know this and talking to business friends who are also selling online courses like the sales come from email, they do not come from your Instagram following. You could totally use your Instagram following to get people onto your email list, but the sales are happening in the email list.

Shanna Skidmore: (33:31)
Oh yeah. Yes. Oh my goodness. Well, we are such kindred spirits because I'm so much is the same in my story. I, I was like, I don't enjoy this. Is it good for my mental health? So many levels. This was back in 2017 for me. So I decided to take a year off and I tracked all the analytics. I was like, how much is coming from Instagram? How can I, you know, move that audience somewhere else. And unlike you, I've never been consistent with content creation. That is my biggest downfall of my business. But yeah, it, it, my business has done better without it. So that's so interesting. Okay. So I love talking to people about this idea of balance, which I don't love the word balance. I always say harmony. And you sounds, it feels like you've built a business. You just actually truly love doing. So what does it look like? Or what does that word balance kind of mean to you? How do you integrate life in business in a way that is right for you?

Paige Brunton: (34:28)
Hmm. Yeah. This is something which the longer I've been in business, the more I've thought about like, what do I really want to be doing? Like, there was a point at which I was like, okay, I've made enough money to like buy a house and do a huge renovation and all these things. And then I still had to really start questioning, like, what am I like, why am I doing this? Of course you have like a team that you have to pay for and you have business expenses and your own life to pay for and everything. But at some point it really, you start to wonder like, is all the time which I'm spending on this is this the thing which brings me the most joy. So I don't, I don't have children, so that's a factor. So I don't have to think about it I think as much as a lot of moms do, but I do start to question like, am I spending enough time with my family and my husband? And am I really enjoying the time that I'm spending at work every day? Or what should again, coming back to the like, what should I be doing or not doing in this business and trying to really prioritize. And it's funny, cuz again, I said I studied pretty much play in university and like the importance of recreation and leisure. And then I definitely found like when I was starting my business, there was no recreation and leisure happening in my life. Like there was work constantly and so as I've again been like, okay, I can take my foot off the, the gas a little bit on the whole like build this business. There was a point where I was like, okay, I don't need to like keep pushing for more. I was at a conference, she talked about this idea of enough. And I have had this in the back of my mind for so long. And I was like, trying to determine when I've reached enough. Because otherwise like I have no, if I don't define enough, I just keep going. And then I realize like again, cuz I find fun in my business and love my business. And so I'll just keep working. But then you determine like, no, you know what? Like at some point you kind of like take stock and step back and you realize like this isn't the life I really wanna be living. Like I don't wanna be constantly at this laptop. I don't know. Even though I love this, there also should be something else happening in my life. And so just in the past couple years I've definitely been prioritizing like hobbies and fun. And I mean, I always took a lot of vacation cause I always loved to travel. So that was never an issue for me. But yeah, I think this idea of like what is enough and then I've never, I talked to my husband about that at some point as well. Like should I determine a financial goal for the year and then just stop working after that? And I determine like, I don't know if I actually like that specific solution, but I like the idea and the direction of it. And this is definitely again, this year is the point, which I'm like, you know what, why if I'm pushing for more, why am I doing that? And like maybe there's a, some sort of a money mindset problem. That's like making me always want more. Because I don't know. I don't think that again, once you've reached your like financial goals, what are you doing it for? Like, because believe me, the intensity at which I worked on my business definitely meant a lot less time for like friends or family or spending time with my husband. And he literally called my business at one point, like the third person in our marriage. And he was totally correct. Even if I was with him going for a walk, my brain was on my business or I was constantly bringing up like some sort of issue, which I wanted to talk about or challenge, which I was dealing with. And he was like, I think this needs to be a little bit less of a part of our lives. And so again, that's been a factor of me trying to determine what is enough and stopping myself once I've gotten there.

Shanna Skidmore: (37:33)
Do you feel like that's been having sounds like definitely. So it's always a process, especially I think just the world and culture - more is less, you know, I had a mentor tell me one time, if you don't want more money, you're just fooling yourself. If you say you don't want more money, you're just fooling yourself. And I think that's just

Paige Brunton: (37:49)
I don't agree.

Shanna Skidmore: (37:50)
part of the culture, but that's why I resonate so much with like how much is enough and when you know that number, it's very life giving, you can choose to keep working or you could choose to slow down. Like what do you feel like? It sounds like picking up hobbies and those type of things. Do you see that you're able to, you know, find that harmony that you're looking for?

Paige Brunton: (38:11)
Definitely. Yeah. I've definitely, I'm not like a hundred percent perfect or a hundred percent to where I want to be in terms of telling myself to like, okay, take your foot off the gas on the business, but I have significantly, significantly improved in it. And the more also, I mean kind of ridiculous, but like the more time I spend doing things and my brain is just able to wander, the more I come up with great ideas for the business actually. So like going for a walk is one of the best things I can actually do for the business, um, or going, I took up horseback riding. Doing that is fantastic for my joy. And also coincidentally for me coming up with great ideas.

Shanna Skidmore: (38:48)
Isn't that so ironic. So through all of this journey, what would you say is the best thing that you've learned about money?

Paige Brunton: (38:58)
Mm. The best thing I've learned about money. So I think that I've been given an amazing opportunity to learn something which most people don't get to learn until they're like in their fifties. Like all you hear of the stock broker who worked like crazy and worked 70 hour weeks, and then don't have a relationship with their kids or their wife or whatever. And then they look back at 50 and they're like, oh, I did my life wrong. And I feel like I've been given the chance to earn a lot at a very young age. And therefore kind of learned that lesson before I threw away my thirties and my forties and my fifties. And that's given me, I mean, again, the finances are a part of it though. It's like, okay, well I don't need to go so intensely because I, I don't know, achieve these things, but I don't know. I just feel like I've been given a bit of a perspective on life, which is, I don't know, it's also worth living now. Like I thought about this, my dad, he was always really hardcore. When I had student debt, he was like, pay off your student debt. Don't do anything until you pay off your student debt. And I was just like, or you shouldn't go on a spring break trip, you have student debt. And I was like, well, you know what? A rave at 22 is only good at 22. That's not fun at like backpacking Europe is only fun at 25. That's not fun when you're 40. And I, I definitely realize that now, like there are certain things which are only a good time at a certain age. And so if I wait to do everything, when I'm 65, I mean, you might not even get there. So really trying to, you know, I think I've learned, that's what it's taught me, making a lot at a young age is that, you know what, it's also really worth prioritizing your life. And it's also worth, I mean, I've always advocated for being hella financially responsible. But I also think I disagree with my dad who was like, don't go on a spring break trip when you have student debt. Because I was like, you know what, student debt will get paid off. And I did it in like a year and a half after I graduated. So it didn't take me long to pay it off. But yeah, I've learned to also enjoy the now because some things are only good now. Not at 40.

Shanna Skidmore: (40:59)
Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. It makes me, um, Paige I, if you haven't watched this, it's a Ted talk. I think it's called the power of time off. You will love it. I watched it when I, my first year in business, full year in business, which was 2014 and he takes a one year sabbatical every seventh year. And I ended up doing that in 2020, took a full year off, but I incorporated two months of sabbatical into my year, every single year. And it really, I love how you said that it's like, yes. Be financially responsible. Yes. You know, have goals for finances, paying off debt, saving those type of things, but also having fun along the way. So I think that's beautiful. Okay. We always end. Oh, thank you for sharing. I love hearing more of your story. It's just, I love the lessons you've learned and what you've built. Okay. We end this with just kind of a quick fire question round. So I'm gonna ask you some questions and we'll see what you say. The first one was just kind of tough, but one thing you would be embarrassed if people knew personally or business wise, either, either way

Paige Brunton: (42:03)
Yep. So one thing which, so I started this business. I feel like it is kind of obvious through the story. Like I moved to Germany, I needed to pay my rent, this business. I feel like so many people talk about their why, and they're doing it for the greater good. I was like, I need to pay my rent. Like I need to make money. And I feel like on one hand, that's kind of embarrassing. But on the other hand, I was like, you know what, that's the story of so many people. Like when I talk to my course students about why they're starting their business, very few of them are like, oh, it's just for the passion of websites. It's like, it's also because they have financial goals. So I feel like that could be slightly embarrassing, but at the same time, I kind of want it to not be embarrassing. Cause I think that's why a lot of people get started in anything. Like, no one's going to a job generally because of the complete passion of the job. It's generally when they're applying for something like, you know what I need, I need to pay my bills. tTat's one thing like my business was purely at the very beginning. I was like, how do I make money? Like, that was, that was the passion at the very beginning, which I find slightly embarrassing that it wasn't for some like bigger grand change, the world purpose, but that's the truth.

Shanna Skidmore: (43:00)
Yeah. I am so glad that you said that I actually find that people who need the money in the beginning learn their finances so much faster than those who don't need necessarily like have to have the money. Um, so that

Paige Brunton: (43:17)
I can see that.

Shanna Skidmore: (43:17)
That probably served you well in the long run. And I often find passion follows, you know, I started, I love what I do. Um, but yeah, I paid our bills while Kyle was in school, so I had to figure out how to get paid too.  I love that. Okay. Second question. Are there any regrets that you have? Though I don't love that term. Or kind of just wish you could do over moments?

Paige Brunton: (43:44)
Uh, yes. I also agree though. I fully don't believe in the regrets thing. Like I also am like, you know what? I learned a lesson, like I learned look at everything as a learning lesson. So I guess the one that you could say is, I guess, run more ads in 2018

Shanna Skidmore: (43:58)
Darn it.

Paige Brunton: (43:58)
Um, or do over moments. I think when it comes to the team situation again, like I wish I hadn't beat myself up so much for it. And I think also one thing was like, everyone else, they were growing these like huge 15 person teams. And I was like, oh, I should be doing that. And I learned like, I grew it obviously my business with like, as lean a team as possible. Cause I didn't enjoy managing them. And that's one thing which I feel like I wish I feel like I, I wish I hadn't have beaten myself up for like, oh, you're not growing as fast as like these people who have this 15 person team. And I realize now, like I did exactly the right thing and I was like doing it in line with like my morals and my what's important to me. And that is profit. Not just top line revenue. And that's another reason why I didn't go run all the ads in 2018. Um, because I have always valued, like what comes home? Not just, what can I brag about that I made this year, if that makes sense. And I feel when you grow the 15 person team and you have, yeah, you do like couple million in a year, but you also take home, not a heck of a lot then, that's not what I'm chasing.

Shanna Skidmore: (45:01)
Yeah. Our brains are so the same, like in all things, um, yeah. I always talk about like building it, lean I, and building it the way some people love a team. Some people love managing a team, but my brain, I don't either. And yeah, there's so many vanity metrics out there and revenue is often one of them, six figure seven figure business. But like, what did you actually make?

Paige Brunton: (45:23)
Yes.

Shanna Skidmore: (45:24)
Which is why I love this podcast, you know, because we get to have conversations that I get to have in the background all the time. Which actually, you know, Paige is funny, something you've said to me a couple of years ago, you said you have the unique opportunity to have conversations that other people don't have to get to have. And about it was about that Instagram versus profit. And I get to see those back end numbers, so. I love that you're sharing and other people are sharing their stories bravely. Cause money isn't always easy to talk about. Okay. Next question. What would you say is a big win or kind of a pinch me moment?

Paige Brunton: (45:57)
In the business. The most shocking pinch me moment, I guess was when I launched my Square ecrets business course. That's the one which teaches people how to build a website business. When I launched that for the first time I opened the cart to it and my inbox just like lit up with sales and I was sitting at my desk and I was like, never my husband. I was like, there's another one a minute later. There's another one. There's another one. And he's like, at some point he's like, is this normal? And I was like, no, this is not normal. Like, I don't know what's happening. We had never had like that kind of a rush of sales with my previous course ever before. So that was a really like pinch me moment. And I think the reason it happened was just cuz like I listened to my people and what they were asking everyone in the first course was asking after they built websites and knew how to do it, how to build a website business. And so that was a really like amazing moment where I was just sitting at my desk. Just kind of like shocked seeing sales come in way faster than they ever had before.

Shanna Skidmore: (46:51)
That's so cool. That's so fun. What would you say is the best advice you have ever received?

Paige Brunton: (46:58)
Okay. So there's I think I'll just go for like a very practical best advice. And that was to invest in index funds. I did so much research on the best way to invest your money. Once I paid off my student debt was like, I need to save for my retirement. And I read about eight investment books because I didn't trust one. I wanted to verify. Everyone was saying like invested low cost index funds. And once I did that, it is just mind blowing. I showed a friend the other day we talking about about she's like, oh, I haven't saved anything for retirement. I don't know what to do. And I was like, here's what I'm doing. I just showed her my app and showed her how much I made in a couple years off index funds. And she's like, what is this magic? Like? This is amazing. So that's a very practical, best advice was invest in low cost index funds. Cause,

Shanna Skidmore: (47:43)
And it's so easy and anyone can do it. Yeah.

Paige Brunton: (47:45)
So good. Yeah.

Shanna Skidmore: (47:46)
That's awesome. Last question. And then I'm gonna, we'll wrap it up. What are you working on now? Or what is one resource that you would love to share with people listening?

Paige Brunton: (47:56)
Yes, I will share something kind of related. So the thing which I'm working on right now is I have built online courses fairly successfully and I was excited to chat about something, which I've been working on a bit more lately and that is course launching. And so I have been walking a small group coaching program, um, very intimate, lovely program with just a few students through my course launch collective program. That's where I help people to build and launch their own online courses. And resource related to that is I have a quiz on, does your course have six figure potential at PBcourses.com/potential. But yeah, that's what I'm working on right now. I'm loving taking these students through. One of them is launching this week. One of them is launching next week. Two more are launching in the fall and I'm so thrilled to see the results from it after we've gone through. Some of 'em had launched courses before, but weren't thrilled with the results. Some of them had never launched before. And so I'm so thrilled that we get to compare the results before and after. So yeah, that's what I'm working on.

Shanna Skidmore: (48:52)
I'm so excited about that. I am, I've become so much more passionate about scaling, like offering scalable products because that really changed the trajectory of our business and personal finances. And so I'm really excited that you're doing that and sharing your, what you've learned. So that's great. And I love that you're testing it too. Before officially launching it so way go Paige. Okay. Send us off with looking back. It's 2016, 2015, those days finishing your grad program. What would you tell yourself on day one of your business?

Paige Brunton: (49:27)
I would tell myself it's all gonna turn out o.kay. And stop worrying. And start living because that is definitely a tendency, which I have still to this day still something which I always have to work on. But I know every single year I, if I looked back and told myself something and be like, it's gonna be okay, calm down, like go enjoy your life, stop stressing. So that's what I would definitely tell myself then and also now, and probably 60 years from now. I'm just gonna tell that to myself too. I feel like I'm definitely a natural worrier. So I would tell myself to drop the worry.

Shanna Skidmore: (49:56)
Yeah. That's so good. Take a deep breath and just have fun. Thank you so much, Paige, for sharing your story it's been so wonderful to chat with you today.

Paige Brunton: (50:05)
Thank you Shanna. I really appreciate it, it was lovely chatting.

Shanna Skidmore: (50:08)
Hey, wildflower. You just finished another episode of Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. Head over to considerthewildflowerspodcast.com for show notes, resource links, and to learn how you can connect with Paige. One final thought for today from Steve Jobs: "hHve the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become." Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time.