126. The Hidden Costs of ‘Doing It All’ & Why This Entrepreneur Opted Out

In this conversation, Paige returns with a more personal take on life as a digital entrepreneur living abroad. We’re talking guilt-free boundaries, “done is better than perfect” energy, tracking your freedom number, getting ruthless with your to-do list, and why ROI isn’t always about revenue.

She’s pulling back the curtain on the intentional choices that help her avoid burnout, make peace with not doing it all, and strategies to finally let yourself enjoy the life you’re building. 

If you’ve ever wondered when the “balance” part of work-life balance actually kicks in—this episode is for you. Spoiler: It’s not about having it all. It’s about knowing what’s actually worth having.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/paige-brunton-encore

📌 RESOURCES MENTIONED:

Asana - my go to project management software

Die with Zero

Transcript

0:01

Hi Paige, welcome to the show. Hi Shanna, thank you for having me again, I feel honored. Or should I say, yeah, welcome back to the show. I love, I mean, we haven't had a lot of repeat guests and I'm so excited for kind of our encore series to talk a little more on the life side. Although I have a ton of business questions since we last chatted, so I'm pumped about it. How's life in Switzerland? Life is beautiful. It is wintertime as we're recording this. And so the ski hills, I have not accomplished that much work so far this year, to be honest. There has been a lot of skiing involved, so. Have you always liked to ski? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm from Canada. And so if you do not have a winter hobby, you hate winter and it is like half the year. So you really need a winter activity. so skiing was my thing. now, but I didn't live in like a good, I mean, people think of Canada, they think of skiing, but honestly, it's like Whistler and like British Columbia and everything, which is not where I lived. I was from Toronto, which is not a big ski area. So now having like living in Switzerland, having the most incredible world renowned ski hills out my door, I'm just beyond myself. Okay, wait, how long have you been there now? I've been here a year and a half, almost two years-ish. No. Yeah. story? Okay, long story short, I was in college in the US, went to Ole Miss, met a German guy at a bar, moved over to Europe to be with him. We hopped around a few European countries and we're trying to look for like the right place that was kind of like the perfect mix for both of us. And so, yeah, we lived in London just before this and then we moved over here, but it wasn't great for his work. And so we moved to Switzerland and it was like fantastic for both of our lives and work. And so we finally found the right country and we're not moving again. Okay, because how many countries have you lived in? In the past 10 years, I've lived in five countries. And in the past 10 years, you've run your business the whole time. Uh, yeah. Well, it started maybe not 10 years ago. don't know. Just under, I think. Yeah. the world have you figured out how to like run a business, relicense a business, you have a team in all these countries? I've just moved states a bunch and it's hard. I know it's so annoying. No, it genuinely like, would think on the one hand like, oh, I mean, it's a business. can like bring it with you and yeah, no, it's complicated. And I think from every country that I've moved from and to, it's been, it depends on each country you're leaving and going to as to like how moving yourself and. potentially a business works. And so my advice for anyone doing it is one, seriously consider if you wanna just like go for five months and 29 days to travel and then, like actually leave your business and life in one place. Cause just the like moving of the administration is extreme. Like it took probably takes, takes about half of my work time in the year that I'm moving just to like actually figure out the like moving my life at my work. Yeah. So anyways, yeah, I wouldn't really recommend doing it. It's not easy and you need experts like legal and tax in all the places. So yeah, it's tough. my goodness. Okay, Paige, hi. This is fun. I'm excited. Tell us what your career life looks like right now and how long you've been in business. And then I just want to dig into like the life side of like running a business you actually like and continuing to like it so that it fuels your life. Like I just want to dig into more of the life side. So tell everybody what you do right now, kind of what your days look like for work. Love that. Okay, so I teach people how to be website designers. So I have some online courses and that is the primary thing which I do in my business. In terms of staying, I think that was a really interesting aspect which you asked that question there, which is like staying like in your business. Like I have a beautiful business model and the business model I could literally not ask for better. So that is fantastic. But the sticking with something for a number of years and not getting bored of it is something which is definitely a problem I've had to like face and figure out how I want to wrestle with that. And so do find that I've felt personally that like when I can, so even though I'm running like the same business talking about the same things. Yeah. If I can learn something, like I love learning and I love like taking on a challenge. And so if I can find like a new sort of like nut to crack, whether it's like improving out our launches and like figuring that out or... figuring out like, there more offers that I wanna build out in my business? Or is there another like topic I wanna talk about as like, you know, a complimentary side bit to like the thing I'm currently doing? Or alternatively, like nailing a new marketing strategy, I created a YouTube channel and that has brought me joy and entertainment of like learning something new for a couple of years now. And so I find that that's really key. So yeah. Tell me, like, how long have you been running the business model you have now, like the course? are you, do you sell them once a year? Do you sell them throughout the year? Like, yeah, how long have you kind of had that structure to your business? question. Seven or eight years maybe, I think I've been doing courses for. roughly that give or take. And then in terms of how we structure them, so we have open and closed enrollments. We typically do one launch a quarter. There was one year where we did like every other month, we did five months or so and then we script December, December, November. So, but typically it's like once a quarter is when we're doing a launch. And honestly, that's all we can really. like want to, I mean, both internally and also probably like my audience too. So that's like worked really well for us and we've that for years now and we're happy with that kind of like frequency and cadence. And there has been times there was one summer where... It was like after the pandemic when all of my friends got married in the same year and we had like seven international weddings to go to and we were just like flying around the world from like May until October. It was awful. And like we didn't launch for like a few months in the summer. And I was like, this is not a good idea. And so I learned that like, really, think once a quarter is like perfect. Yeah, for you. So you don't sell them in between your launches. We do have some evergreen funnels. So they do sometimes sell in between, but mostly it's like through the launches is when we like make the big hoorah and fun and everything. Yeah, okay. Tell me, so, so many questions, Paige. I just love digging into your brain. Eight years, I mean, there's been a lot of shifts in the course industry in those eight years, but I would love actually just to hear how you came to the course model. Like how did you decipher like, this is what I want of my life, and this is the correct business model for me. Yes, okay, I, okay, so was a web designer for many years and like did custom client projects for people. And then I got to the point where I had built a big enough audience that I was getting like more inquiries and I could actually handle this one person. And so the most obvious solution to that. that most people I feel like were doing at the time was like agency model. And I just knew with every fiber of my being, I'm like, I have less than no interest to manage a giant team of people. Like, cause that is, it's a very person, people intensive business model, let's say. And that just didn't sound like joy to me. And so I did consider templates and I did consider courses. I honestly don't necessarily know why I picked course over like template necessarily. I don't know, just seemed like a good option. And I think the interesting thing is that I have literally stuck with the course model. all this time and so many people it's like they did a membership, they did a high ticket, they did low ticket, they did shop, they did so many things and like every freaking year there's like a new trend of the internet on like the way the model you should run your business by or everything and I feel like the membership thing is like it was a couple years ago it was like all the rage everyone was doing it and then people are like man that's a lot of work to maintain and like my gosh I have to new content constantly and it's like always on and I can never really take a break and everything and it takes a huge amount of audience growth to like maintain a membership and stuff And I still think like, memberships can be a great idea, I think for the right business and like in the right situation, but it's not probably the right idea for everyone. And I feel like I was always, in terms of not hating the business over years, I think one of the key things has been like always being very conscious about the downsides of another option and also just not chasing shiny objects or mostly insulating myself from even seeing the shiny objects has I think been key. How do you do that? How do you insulate yourself? And also, has there ever been a time that you've been tempted to jump ship or change course or do something different? There's never been a time that I've wanted to shut down the courses, but there has been a time where I've been like, ooh, I can add something else if that makes sense. But, sorry, what was the first part of the question? how do you insulate yourself? Yeah. So I'm not on social media. I'm not on a- of email lists, I'm not looking at what anyone else in my industry is doing. yeah, I'm just not following a lot of content, I guess you would say. Or like some content, but very specifically, like if I need a topic, I go find the podcast episode on that topic. So mean like, I'm not on... Facebook at all, like I have News Feed Eradicator, would highly recommend for the, oh, okay. So if you have Facebook and basically if you, I think it's a Chrome extension, it's called News Feed Eradicator, it's free, you just add it and then you can't see anything on your News Feed, which means that you, like you can go onto Facebook, because we still have a Facebook account, because we need it for the business and groups and stuff, but I like don't go onto Facebook on an everyday basis. I don't have Instagram on my phone. I haven't been posting on Instagram in years. So yeah, I mostly just don't see what's happening in the world, and I'm very happy about it. OK, so many things. I got to write this down. News feed. Okay. Do you feel like this has been a contributor to your success? And in what ways? I would be interested of how this has been a contributor to your success. I think it has been because I think that people know me for one thing. it is very, it's like no one's confused as to what I do. Like everyone has known for years what I do, because I've done the same thing for years. And so I do think that I become like the immediate idea in someone's mind for, I want to be a website signer. I want to like learn how to build Squarespace websites, page run, that is the person. And so I do think that in that sense, it's been very helpful. How have you continued to grow your audience off of the typical channels, especially in the course world? I think a lot of people in the course world will be like, what? How are you doing this? Yeah. Okay, so blog was the thing for the longest time for me, so I teach people. Like I have a course both on like Squarespace and the tech of like learning Squarespace and then one on like building a web designer business, which is not really platform specific, whatever platform you're on doesn't really make a difference. So anyways, those two courses. So one thing which I did for a long time and that's how I started was I wrote a blog and so I would just wrote a boatload of articles on how to blah, blah on Squarespace or just, I don't know, things related to website design. or example websites built on Squarespace, whatever, that sort of stuff. And so it was like through SEO and search that I was getting found and people were joining my email list and that's how it was for quite a long time. email it, yeah, so blog to an email list basically, that was pretty much it. And there was a time when I was on Instagram and I would post on Instagram and be like, this doesn't feel good, I don't enjoy it. Like I would observe myself as I would open the app after like a minute or two and be like, this is not making me and seeing what she's doing and what success so-and-so is having and all these things. I was like, this, no, I don't. And I mean, and I think the research was like starting to come out on like social media is unhealthy for you. And I was like, yeah, I can tell. And so, yeah, I just decided I wanted no part of that. And so I did do Instagram marketing for a little while. I wasn't very good at it though. So it wasn't really like a huge hit to the business when I stopped doing it because the blog was the thing that, and the email list was the thing driving the core sales anyways. Then I did want to have another marketing strategy. We doubled with ads for like a minute, but I didn't love it either. We then did a YouTube channel and also an affiliate program. And so those are still to this day, the three main marketing strategies that we do. So long form YouTube videos. I still haven't even gotten on shorts yet, to be honest, which is fine because it's like, I do one thing at a time until I perfect it. And then I move on to the next thing. So. Yeah, so YouTube, affiliates, and the blog are the three, and then the email list, it all leads to the email list. Paige, you were running a business, kindred spirits, my gosh, you were running a business that I think most people say they want, think they want. Mm. But so many people aren't doing it. think like to be like, no, you know what? I'm making long form YouTube videos still. Haven't done shorts, you know? my goodness. you know, it's like most people are like, you haven't done shorts. my gosh. You know, but it's like, you just keep, I love how you said one thing at a time until you perfect it. And I think some people, I get this all the time. You know, I get this too, because I'm not on social media and they're like, you're losing so much business. You're... not where your people are and sometimes it really gets in my head. You know, I'm like, oh, you know what, maybe you don't even hear those things. That's because you've got newsfeed eradicator. No, no, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I do have a lot of people that I don't know. Probably still let too many people speak into my world. We hired an ads person last year to just test out because my husband's always done. We don't do a lot of ads, but my husband's always done our ads and He's working full time now, so we were trying out a new person and she could not believe that I was not on Instagram. She was just like, this is really affecting your ads. And just so, yeah. ads on Instagram, could see how that is, because there was a quick period of time where we were also running ads and then was like growing my Instagram, but it wasn't even active on Instagram. So was like, this isn't great that I'm running ads in a place where I'm not actually active, because I do feel like then you like built a relationship and everything. So I would try to, mm. us, and she was right, like it was using the wrong name and blah, blah, but I think the message was people sometimes I think it's hard for others to understand when you've chosen to build your business in a way that feels so counter to the model. You know what I'm saying? Like to, like, wow, you're not doing shorts, you're missing out. Wow, you're not on Instagram, you're missing out. Wow, you're not. You have news feed, you don't read your news feed. I mean, I don't even know what's going on in the world half the time. And then I feel bad, because I'm like, something probably important is going on. If something that important is going on, you will hear about it. Like someone will tell you. I'm like, yeah, think we're just not, I've been reading a few books too. Anyways, we got a side note about social media, some books about just social media and its effect on health and mental health. And some of the things I've read, just like, is that for real? Like, think it was Erin Lautner's book where she wrote something about chasing silly love. Have you read her new book, The Opt Out Family? She just wrote another book about social media and its effect on like. Essentially like how to replace social media in your family's world like how to know your family more than a social media app but it was saying I think it was tick tock or One of these apps has a bit the video camera like while you're recording yourself It's watching you so it like watches when you were like your eyebrows raise or like when you're watching a video and stuff and so that's how it you know, the algorithm works so it feeds you things that it's shown that you've like reacted to and I'm just like That is terrifying. is... put me on an island! Yeah. Paige, so how have you continued to identify what brings you life, what brings you joy? And I really truly, feel like you are some, and I know I'm sure it's not perfect every day and all the time, but like you work hard to build a business you actually really like. Like how do you stay in tune with that? in your own self and identify like, like to ski, I need to, does it come, I need to make this much money, like I wanna move to Switzerland, like how do you just continue to stay in tune with what you want? I think okay, so and this is something like as you said is you've built this business in a way that is very unusual and I feel like a lot of mastermind friends are like what is this girl doing like In a positive way because I feel like a lot of people Yeah, and they build a business and it's very successful and then they hate it and then they like burn the thing down and it's like that is not something which I've had the desire to do at any point in time which I feel like is a Not break, but that is like I'd say that's a success and I feel like Okay, ways which I make that happen. I think my husband said this and I was like, this is unfortunately true. He's like, you are almost physically incapable of doing something you don't wanna do. You are just so, you just know. I don't wanna. I don't have an interest in that or that doesn't bring me joy or whatever. I'm just very kind of aware of what I like and don't like. And I do, but then, and I think again, coming back to like insulating yourself from hearing what else is like going on in the world is hugely helpful because you, it's like, that's, which is really sad. It's like, love, there's like a few YouTubers and influencers who I love. And I noticed it was like, I spend so much more money when I'm watching them versus when I'm not watching them. And so it's like, It's like, don't even want something which I can't even see. But then once you see it, you're like, that's a dress. so, mm-hmm. So I think coming back to like the insulating yourself from even seeing the stuff is really key. So I would really like observe if you are on one. Sometimes like if you're main lead source is social media, then like do not put it tomorrow. I would not recommend that. I do have a YouTube video by the way on how to market your business without social media, which we can link. That one's something a lot of people have personally come and talk to me about afterwards, which I think is interesting. But then I think the other thing which really helps is my annual planning. And I am just, I just have a list of questions which I ask myself like, what did you enjoy this year? What did you not enjoy this year? And I just get like ridiculously brutally honest with a Google doc. for like four days, I take myself off to a hotel, no people. I had a business friend who's like, can we do annual planning together? I was like, no, sorry, I need to be by myself. I need to like sit and like put away all that. I mean, I'm on a device, I'm on my laptop, but I'm not like looking at any, like it is just focused. Like this is time to sit and think and plan and whatever. And so I really, and I think over the years I've gotten better and better at it is noticing what is in the things I enjoy category and things I don't enjoy category and like figuring out how to slowly work my way in that direction. So I would also say the annual planning is like this really nice couple days every year where I'm, because the rest of year, yeah, sometimes I do get dragged in directions where I was like at the end of the year, I'm like, why did I do that? If I had been a little bit more conscious, I wouldn't have, so yeah. yeah, sometimes you have to go through it to realize, but I 100, we're like kindred spirits. Like we need to hang out, not in your plan together because of me. But no, I'm the same, like just asking yourself the simplest questions. What did you like? What did you not like? What's working? What isn't working? I do it like personally, professionally, financially. What's working? What's not like? Just getting really clear on that. And I love it. I think you and I are the same. You have permission to build in a way that lights you up. And if you don't enjoy them, why are you doing it? OK, let's get to the actual questions, because this has been so good. How have you seen your business shift, Paige, in different seasons of your life? I don't know if you were married when you first started your business. You've moved quite a minute, a few different times, different countries. How have you seen over the last eight or nine years your business shift within those different seasons? So I think it hasn't had to shift much actually because it is quite simplistic to write a simplistic, like believe me, I work full-time hours and I'm not just chilling on a beach all the time by any means we're on a scale. But I think I... Yeah, exactly. The passive income I make while I'm sleeping constantly now. Yeah, there's a lot of work behind that passive income. But I don't know, I think I've set up the business. I haven't had children though, so like we will see. I say this now and then just wait. I'm sure kids will rock my world. I don't know, like... The fact that it's like I have like a few consistent marketing strategies, a couple launches a year. It's like no matter what has been happening in my life, I have been able to manage that. And there's been years where I've accomplished more and less than others based off like moves and what's happening in my life. Though sometimes I've actually noticed, this is something funny. It was 2019, I took three months of vacation, just like dispersed throughout the year because I just was in Europe and had a lot of trips I wanted to do. And I took three months off. and the business ran really well and it was all good and then 2020 hit and I just had a lot of time to sit at home and so was like, what else am gonna do? I guess I'll just work and I worked so many hours in 2020 and we did not, like. we didn't accomplish significantly more and it made me realize that like sometimes being a bit more limited on your time makes you so much more conscious of like what is actually important and what am I doing that's just like make work projects or like little tweaks here and there which kind of don't actually matter. So I feel like as long as you have time for those like big important things which is like your main marketing strategy which you're doing consistently and your sales and launches and like updating your courses like those are probably the three things that need to happen in this business all the time. So. Marketing, update your courses. I love it. I thought of that quote, like the bee, it depends on like why you're busy. Busy isn't, the bee is praised, the mosquito is swatted. It's like, you know, the bee is being productive. Like, so anyways, I just thought of that when you were talking about it. Will you tell me, before I ask the next question, I do have that ask. Yeah, I'm sure you've gotten, like how do you overcome getting bored? And do you ever feel lonely? Oh, okay, that's a question. Okay, do I ever get bored in business? Yes, definitely. Recording the same thing for your course the seventh time is not that exciting. It's a problem with having to tech courses. It does need to be updated a lot. So yeah, that's very boring. How do I deal with that? I mean, I just like kind of know it has to get done. I just absolutely have to do it. And if there is a piece which can be given to a team member and they can create an update in some way, that amazing. But otherwise I just like accept that that is. I have a beautiful business and if that's the one thing I need to do that I don't enjoy that much, it's not gonna kill me. And then there has been years where I have like, I did have a higher ticket coaching thing for, I don't know, a quarter and it was like, I don't like calls every week. So it was good, it was like a test and I tried it and then I realized that wasn't for me. And then I have... Yeah, I talked about some other topics too. Like I did have a minute where I was also talking about like passive income a little bit too. And then I realized, not actually. So we're like growing an audience though. That's the way which I feel like my people really need is because so many web designers, they build a successful web design business and they want to sell templates. They don't have an audience. So I created a course on that too. So there are some things that I have done, which are like a little bit, you know, not a hundred percent focused on the one thing, but that kind of does help the boredom for sure. yeah. creating new things. Maintaining old stuff is not that thrilling to me. Yeah. And then what do do if you feel lonely? Hmm. I f- In business, in life, both. Yeah. So... Yeah, I think that's the thing, is that- So I have, it's been different, it's been interesting. So like I have the same group of girlfriends from university that I have had. for years and I literally haven't lived in Canada for like almost 10 years now, I think it is. And so the fact that I still have that super close girlfriend group, I think is amazing. And I think when you have like really good friendships, that does a little bit help with like potential loneliness. When you move to a new place, there is no question that like you need to go build an entire new friendship group. And so, I mean, the good thing is I have my husband and we love spending time together. So that's like, we have a really good time together. But when I have moved to new places, like I just fully recognize and understand that that's that is on me to go make friends because it's not just, like, it's not like when you're at home and your calendar just fills itself. I actually, there was one weekend my husband had, I think I was going on a business trip to California and he, and I was leaving like halfway through the weekend, so my husband went up to go be with his family for the weekend. And I was like by myself in Zurich for the first time. And I was like, oh shit, I really, like we have some couple of friends, but I was like, I don't really want to message a couple of friends because my husband's not here. And I was like, I need some girlfriends. Like I need girls to go get cocktails with on a Tuesday night. And I was like, all right, logical brain, what do you do about that? And I was like, I'm going to go on BumbleBFF and I'm going to hate messaging. don't like sending, like, I don't like, I'm not at like WhatsApp chatter or like iMessage chat or anything. So I just send a bunch of girls a message being like, hey, making a group of girlfriends in the city. I hate texting. I'm organizing a bunch of girls to go get a cocktail at this place at this time at this bar. Let me know if you want to come." And everyone, there was like 20 girls who were like, yes, oh my God, I'm so great. No, no, but it's like, yeah. Yeah, because everyone who's on, so do you know Bumble? It's like the dating app, but there's Bumble BFF, which is for friends. What? This makes me so happy. Yes. used to like knowing that, I don't know, you have to go make friends somehow. And these things, it's like everyone else who's on Bubble BFF, that's the thing about also where I live here and also being in London, there were so many internationals and people. Yeah. weren't from there and so therefore everyone is down to make friends. So it's kind of like first week of university all over again because everyone's like just down to meet people. So I mean I have to admit like I haven't made friends with a lot of locals in the UK or in Switzerland because those people have friends and family and I'm like it's okay I understand that that's just like you have your people so I'm probably you're probably not going to be down. Yeah. But anyway, so feel like organizing things, like just accepting that you have to take it on yourself, that you have to organize things, and also just being a little strategic and like you're not going for the locals, like you're just gonna make friends with the other expats is probably the right move. Yeah, OK, this is all so good. I would say, OK, tell me, what you've learned just about time management in your professional and personal life. Because it feels like you would, I just feel like you just have such a thriving personal life from that outsider looking in. You have such a thriving personal life. You have moved to different countries just because you're interested in it. Obviously, you love to travel. You're doing these things that build up your life and still running a very successful company. while you're doing that. So just kind of talk to me like how have you maintained or what have you learned about time management and maintaining a healthy personal life while building this business. I think I... I think doing less things better. is key. think except that's the other thing. I think that's probably the key one is accepting that I will not do everything well at all times. And so for example, if I'm like, I used to, I don't do this so much anymore, but at the beginning of the business, I definitely did. And it's like, I literally made a list of priorities, which I would write down every day to just be conscious of like, what is my top priority? And so it's like, okay, at the beginning of the business, was like build the business, you know, like earn money, that sort of thing was like the top priority. And I was like, and everything below that, like if it was like health or relationship or friendships or whatever, I was like, that is important as long as this one thing is getting done well, then like that's fine for now. And then over time with that like stabilized and that was good. Then I was like, okay, now I can focus on some other things. And if there was a season in my marriage where it wasn't as good, that's like, my relationship is if my husband wants to go for dinner or wants to take a walk in the middle of the day or wants to whatever, and that's good for our marriage, then that is like, then I can guilt free say no to work and know that that is the key thing. Or like health, for example, it's like, I wasn't like going to the gym was not a thing I did for a very long and I was fully okay with that, because I was like, that's just not on the top of the priority list. So I feel like just accepting that I, just knowing like that could be a two year down the road thing that I'm gonna go solve. yeah, I love it. That's so helpful. What would you say for the sake of balance is one thing that you're saying no to right now or that you've said no to in the past? And I feel like you've already spoken to this a little bit, but kind of just frame it in the sense of like for the sake of balance or having a thriving personal life. What have you said no to? Okay, so there's a list. You sent me this question before and I thought about it and I was like, okay, Instagram, social media, TV, I watch almost no TV, like almost nothing. Reading the news, I had a news reading slight addiction. I would spend like an hour every day reading the news and I realized I was like, this is just making me miserable. I'm like, you need to be informed enough to be able to vote. And then beyond that, don't like, I'm not about to go be a politician tomorrow. So therefore I don't think it's a great use of my time. Relationships I won't keep long term. So this is something where because we've moved so much, we have friends in so many places. And then the- good and bad thing is that they all want to visit you. And that it's like, there was a period of time where I swear every single weekend we had guests. And I was like, this is too much for me. And it would start eating into like your work week. Cause like, we'll do a long weekend in London or a long weekend in Switzerland or whatever. And then it's like, well, this is kind of a little bit distracting. And so I feel like we have gotten a bit conscious of like, okay, we're only saying yes to guests and hosting people. If these are people we're gonna have is like. long-term friends. And so yeah, think thinking that through and then any travel which isn't like a hell yes is a no. So I don't, I feel like especially because I live in Europe, which is one thing which is kind of unfortunate, but I'm also like, I think it's the right choice regardless is like, I haven't been to, there was, think four years straight where I hadn't gone to a single conference in the US and I was, or like event or retreat. It's also like post pandemic and stuff, but even still like four years later, I could have gone. But I just didn't go to anything until I think it was last year. I just went to one event in the US and that was it. I hadn't been four years. So yeah. Yeah, I love all that. Will you tell me, are these kind of boundaries that you've set in place? Are there any hard, fast boundaries, whether it's personal, professional life that you have set? It sounds like these are kind of the ones. Do you change those every year? How frequently do you revisit, this is a boundary for me? I feel like when I start to notice something's a problem, like if I'm getting really frustrated, I sit down to work that day or I can't sit down to work that day because something's happening and I'm like, okay, I need to start observing what is happening and what I can do about that and not just accept that this is a problem and just start finding solutions. So for example, when we had guests almost every weekend, I talked to my husband and I was like, we're making a guest van. We are having one guest a month. That is the maximum number of guests that we will host. And even, think also when we moved to Switzerland, I've put in like a six month guest van and I was like, no guests for six months, nothing. just to get settled and like, yeah. make friends in the place, because I'm like, if you have guests every weekend or you're traveling every weekend, you cannot build a life in the place. So yeah, so I guess there's no like, I guess the annual planning, I'm maybe more conscious of these things, but also just like throughout the year, if I'm noticing that I'm annoyed or frustrated, then I should probably look at what the problem is and how can I fix it. Paige, what does your work day look like? Are you working full time every day? Are you working during the day? you take weekends? How are you structuring your time for work and how much time are you working? Yeah, okay. I don't actually know the total number of hours to be completely honest, because it's... My work is not clear in a sense. So it's not like I sit down from 9 to 5 every day. So it's like, wake up, I'm not a morning person, I might get up at like 8, 9, actually get around to working at like 10 or 11. So, and then I'll work pretty intensely until like dinner time. Granted, I do have... American customers primarily and like also podcasts and stuff or even my team and everything often in the US and so I do have Instead of so I used to have the problem where like I would have calls booked Throughout the evening like multiple days a week and I'm like I cannot not have a social life It's like it's it's during the day. It's fine. But the problem is I'm talking to Americans So that's not during the day So I was like every Wednesday you like I never plan anything personally on a Wednesday because I'm like I will literally do calls until 11 p.m. Or midnight Yeah. Yeah. launches, as they're always in my evening and I'll be up to like one or two in the morning. So I'm just like so excited after we like host a live. So I think launch weeks and every single Wednesday is just like, I know that I will not accomplish it. Like I won't do anything personally basically. So did that answer the question? super helpful. And I'm sure that's shifted and changed, like when you were in growth mode of your business, whereas now it feels more stable and it can be more structured. because of growth or not having growth. I think it was just because of me getting conscious of like the problem that was happening, if that makes sense, that I started to realize I needed to kind of like change that. I will definitely say that like the beginning of the business, I was working way more hours than I do now. Like all of the time. No, no, he's out most of the day. So how do you all, like is that just a conversation that you all have had? Like here's, I'm gonna be working late these days. Like how do you maintain your relationships and nurture relationships outside of your work? I think that when... again, it's not like a specific time thing, but there are like very certain boundaries. So say like weekends, I don't do anything. Evening, which are not a Wednesday. Sometimes I even will work though actually. So I don't know, it's just... You've found what works for you all. Yeah. a cell phone in the room or whatever. If we go on vacation, there was no laptop coming. I am absolutely not doing anything. Like those are kind of the hard boundaries that I guess I've said. And those seem to be enough. But yeah, I mean, I do work strange hours, but that's not really a problem. I don't know, he'll like crack open a book or something. how have you then identified them for you? Because I think I can get it in my head like, I'm working at night, I'm in trouble. Not because of my family or my husband or anything. It's like, just I'm not supposed to be working. It's like this, but it doesn't, how have you kind of maintained like, this is what I want in my personal life, this is what I want in my business. Because it isn't just a nine to five job, it isn't clear. I guess because I don't even start work till half of through the day sometimes or today for example from 9.30 until 12.30 I got a haircut and a lash tin and so it's like okay that is technically like work time which I am now doing personal things in and so therefore I if I'm working into the evening I'm like well that's I mean you took your time off during the day or something or if my husband comes home and that's the thing gets dark at like 5 p.m. so he comes home and he's like we have an hour to go for a walk let's go and then it's like I'm taking off from 4 till 5 or 6 or something and then I'll I'll just go do a couple hours again later list in your brain while you're doing personal things? How do you say, I'm getting my hair done, but I don't feel like, Asana, yes. Yeah, give me resources to it. How do you be present in your personal life when work is always giving you, I'm sure you always have a running task of things to do? Totally, I mean, all things are in Asana, personal life, work life, and anytime, and that's the other thing I'll do sometimes is like, say also we would go take a walk, I don't bring my phone, I don't bring keys, I don't bring anything, I'm just like present. And so if I think of something work wise, I get my husband to text me, so then I get the text later and then I'll like put it into Asana so I don't forget it. Or I do have my phone beside my bed and if I'm like, oh, I forgot, whatever, it just goes into Asana. So. Yeah, if it goes into Asada, it's gonna get done and it will happen. If it's not in there, then there's a high probability I'm gonna forget about it. We're the same human. If it's not on my Google calendar, then I'm not there. Asana, I'm going have to get a tutorial from you later to make Asana and Google Talk. But I have to have all things in. I have the funniest story to tell you, then let's keep moving. So I'm the same way. If I think of something while I'm not, I don't have work stuff on my phone. I don't have my email on my phone. I don't even have Asana on my phone, which maybe I should. So I text myself a lot. But somehow my phone number has registered in my phone as Pablo. So it says that I'm maybe getting a text from Pablo. So I just laugh every time because it's me texting myself, but it's and so because it doesn't have like a number in there, like a contact, it says maybe Pablo. Is Pablo taken over my phone? I don't get it. But it just makes me laugh every time. Like how, how did this happen? Like Pablo also. My phone always auto corrects my husband Kyle's name to Luke. so half the time I'll say something and I'll send something Luke and I'm like, AKA Kyle, his alter ego. So yeah, texting myself is how I do it. love it. Okay. Tell me how you transition from like work mode to life mode at the, when you're switching modes. I think I don't and so this is something which I like Maybe some people have some sort of routine they go from one to the other like it is not there is nothing it's just like laptop closes and then I Go make dinner or go for a walk or what there is I have no maybe I should have some sort of like Way to wind it down and get into something else, but I honestly have nothing so I have no tips there I think for me something and I'll kind of speak into this because I have a sauna and because Everything is in there like it allows me to Check out like I don't have always a running list in my brain because it's in there and that's something I think a sauna has helped me with so I can see that as well like I Transition fast like it's like I gotta go But I'm I'm grateful that I can have everything live in a sauna, so I'm not stressed out and forgetting something. So I don't know if you're the same. Tell me what your team looks like at home and at work these days. What do you outsource? Yeah, so team wise, have, how many team members do have? Three, four? Video editor, we have people to do video editing, customer service, bookkeeping, content assistance, course launch tech stuff. That's kind of like the work wise, what I have people doing. That's my job. So, Bicester. mixture. And then, yeah, and so also doing like varying numbers of hours depending on the person and like what exactly it is that they're doing. I just got someone to help with the like admin of the business, which I probably should have done a long time ago because it was like taking up an entire day of my week, I swear. No, just like, I don't know, what, like, I don't know, signing contracts and. figuring out getting stuff together for our taxes and all the random... Or even like little things like, for example, I need to get like a bunch of photos together. Basically everything which is not like big work projects, just like random little things like, oh, you need to like give feedback on this like video editor, start doing a new like, implemented the new branding into the videos. Do you like it? Is there anything you would change or can you get a bunch of photos together from your phone for our next launch? We want to like use some like behind the scenes pictures or whatever. So just like little, so guess admin to me is like little small random things that isn't like. Yeah. yeah. So that's super exciting. So yeah, that's on the life or the work front. And then... Yeah, what else? The other thing we don't do is cook. Both my husband and I would both have zero interest in cooking. And so we were HelloFresh for so many years. And I still love HelloFresh. I think it's incredible. Though I just found something also, which is like HelloFresh, but next level, which is like, it's actually cooked for you and yeah, frozen. so that, and it tastes... it delivered? It's, so no, it gets delivered. It's from like a company. think they serve Austria, Germany and Switzerland. And we had my husband's cousin as a nutritionist, we showed it to her, she was visiting and we're like, is this healthy? She looks at it, she's like, that is very healthy. I was like, perfect, we just, that's amazing. So for a while I was feeling kind of guilty and I was having that feeling of like, no, you can't literally take somebody and stick it in the microwave and like eat that for dinner. And I'm like, that's just wrong. Like you should actually like chop a vegetable or whatever. And then I realized, I was like, is not serving you. Like that is one of those like, guilting yourself into doing something that is like. But if it's healthy and if it tastes good and if it's like you both don't enjoy doing it, then like why would you not do that? It's just like this kind of like external societal like you should cook a healthy meal or something. And I'm like, well, I don't like. to do that, So we ordered it and then it was like, no, that's too easy. And then I actually went back to HelloFresh. And then at some point there was a week where like we just weren't, like I didn't even have time to cook the HelloFresh. And I feel like that's thing is like I do work very intensely and like I sit down to work and I just like go and I'm very in it. So yeah, and then I would get to dinner time and I'm like starving and I'm like, oh shit, I have to cook for like 40 minutes. yeah. That's so interesting that you said that. I love how you said like societal pressures and recognizing what that is and like that that's not serving you. And we found a local company as well, like Hello Fresh Your Stuff to Cook, which for some people they love doing that. You have the ingredients, you get to go cook it. We have been in seasons of work and business where like, I just, I like to cook and I just don't have time to do that. And so we have in two different places where we lived, we have found from a chef who prepares the meals and then yeah, they're just frozen. And then you just like do it. And I just think, Paige, what I hear from you and tell me if I'm wrong, sounds like you're just very in tune with what. you want in life and business and very focused on that, which I think is a very powerful thing in business, to just stay focused. And if it's filling off, you ask the questions as to why. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I think that probably accurately describes it. Yeah My last non-scripted question would be having help, having meals made for you, like all of this costs money. Yep. So for anyone listening who's like feeling like they're trying to do it all, they're not seeing progress, they're frustrated, they're tired. Do you have any encouragement maybe from even like the beginning days in your business where like you maybe revenue wasn't as certain or different seasons in your business when revenue wasn't as certain? Like how have you navigated needing help and then paying for that help as your business has grown? Yeah, I think that I love a budget. Coming back to things we relate on. I love a budget and I... I really did, like the things which I didn't enjoy doing, I did them for a really freaking long time when I had to. It's like, if the money wasn't there, then I wasn't gonna go spend money that I didn't have on something. And I very slowly like worked my way up to more and more of these things. So like it started with hella fresh, which at very beginning I was like, is that excessive? And then we tried it and I was like, oh, that's good. And that's the other thing is like when you have a business, it's nice. Cause like, okay, well if I'm not spending an hour cooking and I can spend that working, then like I can make that back. And so I think also really getting conscious in your business about like what are revenue generating activities or marketing activities which are going to get me more clients or whatever it is, sales. And just being pretty ruthless with yourself about like, am I doing something that is not that important? I think is really there's a lot of make work projects that you can create for yourself And so just being really conscious about like what is directly and that's not which I noticed in like a few annual I think took me like three annual plannings of Being like my goal is to grow my email list and then the end of the year would come and I'm like well I didn't get even close to my goal and then I was like, okay Why is this the third year in a row where that keeps happening? And then I had to I went back into my Asana because I could see all the things which I did I do the smallest task and I added to Asana for like the dopamine hit of checking it off And then I went back and I saw like Okay, well you said your goal was to grow your email list, but the only thing you managed to do was the same thing you've done for the past three years, which is write two blog posts a week. Which it's like, okay, that's what's maintaining it, so what is going to get it more? You need to actually make sure that your time is aligning with the goal that you've actually set. And so I think I did set then quarterly in my calendar, checking in sort of on am I reaching my goals, and if I'm not, then what do I need to do differently with my time to actually get there? And then the other thing which I would say is like, you don't need to start with a full blown employee from day one. Like there are, like I think the first thing I got outsourced was like customer service and it was, I don't know, couple hours a week or something and that was good. And so I didn't, like, you don't have to go for that like full blown commitment if you're not ready for that. Yeah, okay, I love it. This is also helpful. I could talk to you for another hour, but we don't have that, Let's send it off with like any resources, books, podcasts, retreats that you have particularly loved, like what voices do you let in? Obviously I've written down some resources, Asana, yes, yes, yes, please. But that just helps you maintain. a life you love while building a business because it's very easy for the business to take over. Yeah, think, okay, so I love a book. But interestingly, feel like, I don't know if I've found that many good books on this specific topic, like kinda like keeping your business in place and like making sure you live the life you wanna live. So maybe you can give me recommendations. But one book which I did really like, which I feel like is kind of related is Die with Zero. Have you heard of it or read it or? just heard of this like last week. Okay, cool. Read it. It's so good. So it's not the right book for everyone, but if you run a business, then this is probably the right book for you. And it's basically talking about like... people are so focused on making money, making money, making money, making money, then it's like, but what the hell was the actual point of doing that? And it's like, you need to make an amount of money to live the life you want to live. And then beyond that, like, are you just doing it because society says you should or that's success or whatever? And so it talks about, so die with zero. The intention is that you die with zero dollars and maybe you want like, you know, a couple more dollars than that, but like not, you don't need like millions more or something. die with so much money and it's like well what what was what were you doing that for exactly and so anyways I would definitely because I think that's the thing driving it is like is the financials like I'm overworking overworking overworking because I want to hit a revenue goal hit a revenue hit a revenue goal and that's like okay but if you don't need that then why are you doing that and so that's basically what the book talks about which is really fascinating. Sorry. of, no, that's okay. It's time. It is time. Just kind of that going back to like, what is enough for you? I call it now your freedom figure. make it, so, Paige, you're a joy. thank you. I really appreciate it. I have, I just say that, we have two more minutes. There has been times though where like, even coming back to like financial freedom number, it's like, I'm on my way there. I'm tracking my way to getting there, but I'm not actually at that number yet. And so I do think that it can be difficult to stop your, like. Also, think with business, like you can make just whatever, like there is no limit. And so then it can encourage you to just go crazy. And I had to remind myself that like, you don't need to make it all in one year. Like you're also allowed to do it over a few. That was really important for me to tell myself, so. I struggle with that because I'm like, I want to pay off all my debt this year. I want to fully fund my entire month so I could retire tomorrow. And it's, I have to tell myself that too. Set that long-term vision, but then work towards it. So Paige, thank you for your wisdom, for your knowledge. I could spend so much more time with you. just thank you for going before us all and like. Continuing even though it's not perfect. I know but like asking yourself like what brings me joy what brings me joy and and Just being a role model of that. So thanks for your time today It such a fun conversation. I really enjoyed having it, so thank you. Yeah, you too.