An Interview with Rebecca Cherry

Are you ready to discover the power of gut health, hypnosis, and mental wellness? Join our enlightening conversation with Rebecca, a medical doctor who has shifted her focus to these essential aspects of health. We dive deep into her journey from traditional medical training to the world of gastroenterology, nutrition, and the growing awareness of gut health among young adults and teens. Embrace the shift towards a holistic approach to health as we discuss the potential risks of herbal treatments and supplements, and uncover the artificial divide between natural and pharmaceutical solutions.

Intrigued by hypnosis? Rebecca and I tackle the backlash against this powerful tool, emphasizing the importance of validating physical symptoms and the community-building aspect of a diagnosis. Unravel the mystery of how people naturally enter and exit hypnotic states, and learn how suggestions can contribute to the placebo effect. Moreover, we share invaluable insights on finding a reputable hypnotherapist, exploring resources like the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis to help families find the right therapist for their teenager. Don't miss this eye-opening episode, packed with practical tips and expert advice!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast, rebecca. It's so wonderful talking to you, talking to a friend whom I admire so much And I love your work with hypnosis, with gut health, being a medical doctor, understanding sort of different ways in which different ways that are treatments right, it's not one straight sort of approach to physical health, to mental health. So I really want to talk to you about that journey from being a medical doctor to your focus or sort of how did you come into gut health, hypnosis and mental health issues, which, to me personally, are very inspiring. So if you could start, by telling my listeners what has your journey been like?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Sure. Thank you so much. Thank you for the question and thank you for having me on your podcast, rajitah. Yes, it's been a little bit of a roundabout and unconventional path to spend most of my time as a medical doctor treating patients with the modality of clinical hypnosis, but it's also one that's quite evidence-based.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Ultimately, i went through very standard Western medical training, went to Harvard Medical School, did a pediatric internship in pediatric residency and, towards the end of residency, decided to go into gastroenterology as a subspecialty, and my justification at that point, or my explanation to myself what appealed to me so much about GI, was twofold really. One was that nutrition is housed under the heading of gastroenterology in the medical world, and the other is that, as I said it at the time, the GI tract just has so much personality And I don't think I could quite articulate what I'm saying about that. So, although if pressed, i would explain that one of the things I like about GI is that each organ has its own habit, has its own personality, and it's a little bit unpredictable, it's not completely abstract and logical, it's not simply a question of fluid dynamics or physics, but it's really. There are a lot of inputs, both nutritionally and also neurologically, including mentally and emotionally.

Speaker 1: 3:21

That's so exciting to hear about and also such a different perspective on nutrition and gut health, and I think a lot of awareness has been. we've seen a lot of focus on gut health in recent years. I mean, even my older one, my teenager, is talking about gut health and she's turning 17 soon and I'm so intrigued by that. Growing up, when we were growing up, nobody really talked about gut health. In your practice, have you seen sort of this awareness, especially among young teens, young adults, and where do you think that is or that's coming from for them?

Speaker 2: 4:17

Yes, it's definitely something that's really increased over the last 20 years. When I was finishing my pediatric residency in 2005, as each of us senior residents had to do, gave a lecture as part of our pediatric grand rounds at our hospital and I gave a talk on probiotics, which, at that point, most of the people in the audience had never heard of, and I felt very cutting edge and very cool, i must say Of course now probiotics are very commonly discussed.

Speaker 2: 4:57

you can find them in every pharmacy and grocery store and people talk about them all the time As the medical research, as the pharmacological research has matured and we've got more and more data available. And also, i think I have to give some credit perhaps to talk show hosts, in particular Oprah Winfrey, who I think might have had quite an influence in making it more comfortable to talk about poop on TV. Oprah and Dr Oz, who would talk about gut health and talk about bathroom issues ina way. that really wasn't acceptable before.

Speaker 1: 5:55

That's true. I remember growing up in India where that was part of what everyday medical practice looked like is that you look into your entire body, not just one organ, and treating only that one organ. So I think what I'm also saying is that sort of coming back to this holistic view of mind, body and to a large degree also spiritual. So I think that's where, in a way, western medicine is also coming to, i would assume. But in sort of thinking about teenagers and their focus kind of on gut, are you seeing more of that? Or in your practice, what are you seeing?

Speaker 2: 6:57

I'm seeing that teenagers know a lot more than I might have expected them to. I think in part that's because young people are so open to new information, so open to ideas that perhaps their parents or grandparents or even physicians might dismiss or might not want to look into because it's new and unfamiliar. But that's what young people are really good at is having open eyes and recognizing new ideas that make sense.

Speaker 1: 7:36

In that sense, then, the flip question also is do you see an awareness in terms of gut health or sort of integrative approaches to health in?

Speaker 2: 7:49

the parents that you're seeing.

Speaker 1: 7:51

Yes.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Sometimes even to an extent that I think might be a little too extreme, a little bit of increased. Speakers not infrequently have a parent tell me that they don't want their child to use medication, but they're okay with the child using herbal treatments. But the fact that a treatment is herbal or natural doesn't mean that it doesn't have the same pharmacologic properties as a medication that you might buy in a bottle at a pharmacy. Her medications, most of them originally are based on plants, and so I think it's oftentimes an artificial divide between what we consider natural and what we consider pharmaceutical.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Yeah, and I definitely understand sort of the side effects of supplements as well, and in my own practice I see more and more teens coming in and asking me about supplements like magnesium or sort of Lyon's main, and I mean these are some of the things that are becoming so mainstream. I guess because of social media there is so much sort of focus on alternative or plant-based, if you will supplements and then kind of going back to the natural way of getting minerals and vitamins and what our body needs. And I think there is some sort of agency to that. And also I think there is so much lack of true understanding of what that represents and how it affects our body. And so when I hear some of my teen clients talk about supplements, i'm always wondering are they ordering it from the internet, not talking to their doctors? what's going on?

Speaker 1: 10:14

And I think that sort of comes back to also the question of health and the question of health anxiety. So where teens are looking into some sort of body image issues, i see a lot with boys trying to puff up and then girls obviously with disordered eating or kind of trying to sort of be a certain body type, if you will. Are you in your practice kind of looking at some of these issues among teens and how do you approach sort of health issues A with teens themselves? but I'm also very curious to know how you approach that with the evidence of teenagers.

Speaker 2: 11:16

And it's a big question and a big issue. One of the things that I always try to do is to define or expand people's idea of what is normal. What is normal development? Because, for instance, when you speak about girls but not only girls, but girls in particular who want to have a certain physical appearance, be very slim, typically the shape that they're often aiming for might be a typical shape for a 14-year-old, but not for a 17-year-old or a 20-year-old. And so, to educate people, show them what a normal growth chart looks like. To show them, yes, you should still be gaining weight throughout your teens, you should still be becoming curvier throughout your teens. That's, you're developing a normal woman's body, which may not look like the normal models or a Hollywood star's body, but that's a normal woman's body.

Speaker 1: 12:37

And how do you have this conversation with parents, and not just with eating disorders or body image, but in general, when a parent brings in their teenager to your office? what are some of the approaches? that, or maybe one approach, but how do you approach that family?

Speaker 2: 13:05

Yes, well, you know, every family is different, so I find that one of the main things that I need to keep in mind is to be flexible and to really listen to what people are saying. And when a family of a teenager is coming in, who is identifying that there is a problem? Is it that the, is it both? is it both the parent and the teen who have identified a problem? or is it that the parent is saying I can't get her to eat breakfast? or is it that the teenager is identifying a problem that the parent doesn't think is really significant or can't understand what's generating it? So, getting a feel for the family dynamics and for who actually what is the problem that each person has identified? and do those match up?

Speaker 2: 14:23

That's always a big question.

Speaker 1: 14:26

Yeah, and it's a hard thing to do, right, like even in my practice when I work with teens, i do have family sessions and it's really interesting to see where you know who is sitting next to whom, what their dynamics are, how they're talking, and a lot of times teens are not able to talk in front of their parents as openly as they would otherwise, and so it's really sort of interesting to see that family dynamic, but also that family culture, right.

Speaker 2: 15:03

And oftentimes what I find is that kids in general, and teenagers in particular, to some extent want to protect their parents from their own fears or their own worries or their own suffering, and so don't want to necessarily fully describe what they're experiencing with their parents in the room.

Speaker 1: 15:27

Thank you, Yeah, and I see that too all the time with family sessions or, you know, also when one parent is present in the room with the teen.

Speaker 1: 15:44

I'm going to switch gears a little bit here because I also want to talk to you about health anxiety. I mean, in my practice I see more and more young people with certain health anxieties. Especially a lot of my teens will say, hey, I saw this on TikTok and I think I have all of these symptoms that I can check off on this list for this particular mental health or diagnosis. Yes, right, and I'm wondering if there is sort of this anxious based, fear based understanding of health, in a sense that whether it's really their anxiety or is it the anxiety that stems from watching or being on social media right, watching TikTok or Instagram and all of these influencers who are asking them, telling them, giving them information. So I'm wondering where that is coming from. Or is there something that you see with COVID that there is a rise in health anxiety? And again, i understand it's sort of a broad question, but if you can sort of talk to that a little bit, yes, My impression is definitely that health anxiety is increased.

Speaker 2: 17:12

I suspect that it probably does have something to do with the COVID pandemic, but even without the COVID pandemic the rise of social media and the ability to share information more easily On the one hand, it's excellent for patient advocacy and patient information, because sometimes people really do have a condition that has been missed or has remained undiagnosed or have been misdiagnosed, and to have more information available is always better. On the other hand, a lot of symptoms are nonspecific and the same group of symptoms. It could be that 1% of the time is due to, let's say, pots Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, but 99% of the time is not. But if you've got a really influential social media personality who does have one of those unusual or rare conditions and educates many people about it, they might honestly but mistakenly think that they have that same condition, and so reeducating a person about the likelihood of different sorts of disorders can be really crucial in addressing some of those worries.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Another factor with health anxiety, though, is that everybody has unexplained physical sensations. Sometimes, and most of the time, we are able to just ignore them and let them go, but on those times that we really focus on them and watch for them, maybe because we saw it mentioned on a checklist somewhere. Do you ever have itchy ears? Oh, i think I do have an itchy ear. You might really start focusing on that symptom more and more, to the extent that you begin to identify that as something that happens really commonly and you begin to suffer from it.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Yeah, and that's such a great point is that we all have certain health issues. If you will, we all are going to catch a cold, we all are going to fall sick in some ways. But really, what is our relationship to understanding our own body, listening to our own body and then also understanding whether making these diagnoses sometimes can be helpful as an advocate for our own sort of health. But a lot of times it's also part of just being a human being, so I get that.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, what I do find is that people are very reassured by having a medical label to put on their symptom. And the symptom may not represent any dangerous condition at all, but to be given a Latin name for it makes people feel somehow and maybe the word would be justified in having the symptom.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yeah, and also I think a lot of times it validates what they have been thinking about. A diagnosis can be very validating, comforting, I think. a lot of times it's a relief to know, oh, you know what I have. this based on the symptoms that I'm experiencing, And I think it's also like it almost builds a community. I'm able to then join groups or support groups or talk to people and actually not kind of that label allows me almost that you know legitimacy to say, hey, I have this, which means XYZ, versus I'm explaining that and then people really not getting it.

Speaker 2: 21:54

And for family members as well. Yeah, i find that very often I'll be coming out of, let's say, a colonoscopy or an endoscopy, a camera-based procedure, and I will tell the patient or the parent or both. I'm really glad to tell you that, by eye, everything looks normal. We still need to get the biopsy results but it looks to me like there aren't any inflammatory areas or any infected areas, and oftentimes people receive that with a really mixed response. On the one hand, of course, they're relieved that they don't have an ulcer or a tumor or an infection, but on the other, they're disappointed not to have an explanation. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:51

I would assume. So yeah, Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about your work with hypnosis, And how do you see the patients when it comes to hypnosis and what if so? what are some of the things that you're seeing with them?

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yes, hypnosis is something that I think most health professionals, both mental health professionals and more medical physicians, are doing all the time without realizing that they're doing it. How so?

Speaker 1: 23:38

How so. How so, how so?

Speaker 2: 23:41

How so? Well, the hypnosis has really two main components, And there's actually debate about whether there might just be one component, which is the component of suggestion. But there's suggestion and there's also the person. Well, the patient, let's say in this case being in a receptive mode in what we might call the hypnotic state. And hypnotic states are things that people go in and out of naturally all the time.

Speaker 2: 24:19

It's not an exotic or mysterious kind of condition, but it's something that, in particular, kids do constantly. Really, every time a child is doing pretend play, they're in a hypnotic state. Oftentimes, when kids are doing competitive athletics, they're in a hypnotic state. We just don't call it that. We might use the word they're in the zone or they're in a state of flow, But really it's all the same thing.

Speaker 2: 24:55

And neurologically, what's happening is that the brain patterns, the neurologic patterns that are most active when we're in our more, let's say, typical interactive states with a lot of activity of what we call the default mode network, that routine brain activity quiets down and allows for more active conversation among other different parts of the brain. It's a much more creative state. And so people go in and out of those states very routinely, very frequently, And so when they walk into a doctor's office and the doctor says whether it's something positive or whether it's something negative, whether it's, I think this medication is going to be really helpful for you. That might be. They may be They may be doing hypnosis. They're providing a suggestion when a person is potentially in a state of enhanced receptivity, which is one of the real underpinnings of the placebo effect.

Speaker 1: 26:28

Yeah, and so do you see sort of that? How should I put this question, because I don't want it to come across as critical, but in many ways there is so much backlash against hypnosis And I'm wondering, if you kind of mentioned that there was this one approach which is approach of suggestion, was there another approach that would sort of be more I want to say deeper Right, because I mean I do understand suggestion right, and when we are in that open space of receiving it, and I absolutely get that, is there more to it?

Speaker 2: 27:29

Well, there's more questions of degree and questions of how direct a suggestion is going to be. However, i think a lot of the backlash, or let's say resistance to the idea of hypnosis comes more from stage hypnosis or from the way that hypnosis is portrayed in movies. That's such a great point Because and I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned hypnosis to a patient and they've said are you going to make me squawk like a chicken? And by now my standard response is well, i wasn't planning to, but would you like to squawk like a chicken? If so, i can definitely help you with that, because really what we're doing in hypnosis is we're helping a person to provide the suggestions that they want to hear.

Speaker 2: 28:36

I will often describe it as teaching yourself what you already know, but you don't know that you know. So, let's say, a person with, let's say, anxiety about tests at school wants hypnosis for that issue. I'm not suggesting anything they don't already know. They already know and they're already suggesting to themselves that tests aren't threatening. There's no logical reason to be afraid of a test. They already know that, but they're teaching it to themselves in a deeper kind of way, when they're in that receptive hypnotic state, and I'm simply coaching them in doing that.

Speaker 1: 29:28

And so in real terms, how does hypnosis work?

Speaker 2: 29:38

You mean what happens in a session?

Speaker 1: 29:41

Yeah, to a degree, right. So if a teen comes to you with test anxiety, how do you work with them?

Speaker 2: 29:52

Yeah, well, generally, i'll start by getting to know a little bit more about what's happening.

Speaker 2: 30:05

What is the real concern? is there concern more about getting in trouble with their parents? is there concern more about not getting into the college of their choice? so that I can understand a little bit more precisely what is the problem that we're addressing.

Speaker 2: 30:23

And then I also want to know, to find out from them, what are their strengths and resources, what are the tools they already have at their disposal to help reassure themselves and calm themselves and remind themselves of what it is that they already know? For instance, is this a person who is involved in theater and knows how to control their anxiety before going out on stage? Is this a person who does athletics and is able to use that same kind of excitement, which might otherwise be interpreted as anxiety, and use that excitement in order to strengthen their performance? Or there's a whole range of different strengths that people might be bringing in to whatever their situation is, and so my job is to help them to realize what it is that they're already capable of doing and how they can use those same skills and characteristics to help themselves in this test anxiety situation.

Speaker 1: 31:40

Oh, that's such a wonderful way of helping and treating anxiety disorders. Does hypnosis?

Speaker 2: 31:57

help with phobias. For example, phobias are pretty much the easiest thing to treat with hypnosis of all the different things that I see, in part because people are so clear when they come in that it's not logical. They know that it's not logical, they know it doesn't make any sense And so they're already, as I said before, they're already giving themselves that suggestion and might just need a little bit of guidance in how to apply the suggestion or how to receive the suggestion, because I would say very rarely does someone come in with, let's say, a phobia of spiders who really is concerned that the spider they see in the corner of their bedroom is going to be of true danger to them. They know it doesn't make sense to be so terrified by that spider or by a picture of a spider.

Speaker 1: 33:08

That is such great information because a lot of times we don't approach something because we don't have enough knowledge or information on that subject or there is so much stereotypical understanding of what, for example, hypnosis is And, like you rightfully said and I'm glad you said that that it's really it comes from a lot of media portrayals and stage hypnosis, which, i will be honest, was also something in my mind in terms of hypnosis, stage hypnosis. So thank you so much for clarifying that and actually really sort of enlightening that. you know it is a very helpful, useful, useful treatment in many ways. Did you have any sort of when parents are looking for treatments for their teenagers? Did you have any resources when it comes to anxiety disorders or phobias or health anxiety, gi issues, right, like, where do parents?

Speaker 2: 34:23

start? Oh, it's a great question And I will often encourage people to talk with their primary care physician first of all, who might know them better than any other provider and who might have a sense of what direction might be the most fruitful to look into, because there are some anxiety related conditions that are most effectively treated by a combination of medication, as well as hypnosis or cognitive behavioral therapy or some other kind of therapy, for instance OCD type disorders. But when a family is interested in taking a more, let's say, integrative or mind body approach to any kind of disorder, whether it's abdominal pain or whether it's a phobia, there are a few particular places they can look either online or download as apps. There is an app now available for Irvabowl syndrome which is more targeted for adults but which I think could certainly be used by teenagers, and that app is called NERVA N-E-R-V-A. That comes out of Monash University in Australia And they've got excellent data showing that with about a six week program of this app use, a lot of patients with Irvabowl syndrome see at least a 50% improvement in their symptoms.

Speaker 2: 36:35

Having said that, only about 20% of the people who start the program actually complete it. It does take some discipline. As with anything, it takes practice And, unfortunately, hypnosis. Although it is a wonderful technique, it's not usually a one session cure. For a phobia it might be, but for most other things it's not. And even for a phobia it often is not. But the NERVA app is useful. There are other kinds of hypnosis recordings that are available online as well.

Speaker 2: 37:24

There is one another one that's more adult oriented, which is called Reverie R-E-V-E-R-I which is put together by Dr David Spiegel, who's a psychologist who's been very active in the hypnosis world, and then through oh goodness, i don't remember the name of that meditation app There are many meditation apps that can be used.

Speaker 2: 38:11

There's a lot of meditation apps, yeah, and many of them are useful. A lot of meditations, a lot of guided meditations, are hypnosis, even though they're not called that, and a lot of people who lead meditations would be offended to be told that they're performing hypnosis, but really they're helping people to get into that state, that focused, absorbed state, and then providing suggestions. So that's hypnosis, even though they might not call it that themselves. Yeah, so there's a great deal of overlap between what you can find online for meditation versus hypnosis. So a meditation for insomnia, let's say, would essentially be the same thing as a hypnosis recording for insomnia.

Speaker 2: 39:17

But for families who want to find a provider for one-on-one, face-to-face treatment, it is important to know that hypnosis is not really a regulated field. Anyone can call themselves a hypnotherapist. There's no specific licensing, and so it's important for anybody who's looking for a hypnotherapist to know that they are finding somebody with good training and a reputable background. One of the best places to look is through the website of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, which is ASCHNET, which is a national organization which trains medical professionals, medical and mental health professionals, including dentists and, i believe, physical therapists in hypnosis, and that is a very highly regarded organization. On their website, you can search for people who are ASCH certified as experienced hypnotherapists.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Thank you so much, Rebecca. That was a wealth of information for parents And I hope that parents take a look at all of these organizations and look into therapies that are available that are helpful, that suit them and their teenagers. So thank you again for talking to me. It was such a wonderful, easy going conversation, So thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 41:20

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to speak with you.