From Academics to Social Media: A Guide to Middle School Parenting

Have you ever been left scratching your head trying to decode the world of middle school parenting? Anxiety, social media, academic pressure - sounds familiar? If so, then this podcast is just for you! Join us on a fascinating journey with Susan Morato, two mental health professionals and educators who shed light on their unique paths into therapy and the dedication they bring to their work.

Navigating through the tumultuous landscape of middle school, we discuss the challenges parents face during this transitional stage. We discuss the changing dynamics of parenting in today's world and emphasize on the importance of understanding our own parenting journey. The influence of social media, the pressures of academia, and the complexities of various parenting styles are explored, as we offer some valuable insights into understanding your child's specific needs.

Then we shift gears to the social dynamics of middle school. We dissect the intensity of friendships and how friend groups can impact the lives of adolescents. Can empathy be fostered among middle schoolers? We believe so, and discuss how parents can play a vital role in this process. We also emphasize the importance of allowing kids to express their feelings. Lastly, we touch on the significance of creating a balanced schedule for your children that allows for rest and reflection. So, tune in and let's embark on this enlightening journey together.

Bio:
Susan Morato earned her BA in psychology from Haverford College and her Masters in Clinical Social Work from Bryn Mawr College.  She has worked with children in a variety of settings throughout her career, including in residential treatment facilities, schools, adoption agencies, and in her private practice, which is located in Media, where she also sees adults.  Susan has raised two girls who are now in their early twenties.  In her free time, she enjoys yoga, gardening, spending time with friends and family, and learning about holistic and natural healing -  including learning about herbs, amino acids, and other nutraceuticals that support brain health and can be used to address anxiety and depression.  Susan's website is www.therapywithsusan.com.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hi Susan, thank you so much. Hi Pihuja, oh, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you for you know coming on the show. Your willingness to talk to me about middle school students, which is such a difficult age for our kids right Like 10 to 14 kind of is like such a developmentally such a sensitive, rigorous, intense, I feel like years for kids and I'm so excited to talk to you about this topic. We've had so many parents ask us about middle school sort of relationships, friendships, and so this is an exciting topic to talk about.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Indeed, it is. I agree.

Speaker 1: 0:55

So, before we kind of delve into the hot topic of middle school, could you tell our listeners a little bit about your journey in terms of coming to mental health and being a school counselor, working with teens in your private practice? How does this all come about for you, sure?

Speaker 2: 1:20

Let me see if I go all the way back. I always enjoyed working with children, so I was a babysitter, a nanny, a camp counselor and over you know all of that au pair. So that had always been a strong area of interest for me. I guess I would add that, as I reflected back on it, my mother, by the time I was a teenager, predicted that I would be a therapist, and I think she got that. Just from watching me with my friends and the long hunkered down conversation where you're sort of giving mutual therapy to each other, I kind of resisted at the time. I did not think that I was headed in that direction. I majored in psychology when I was in college, but only because I found it interesting. I did not see myself becoming any type of a psychologist or a therapist. Because I had always enjoyed working with children and because there are many teachers in my family, I thought well, if you enjoy children, you go into teaching.

Speaker 2: 2:18

This was also a time back in the early 90s when schools didn't really have emotional support counselors in place. They had college guidance counselors, but not the type of role that I now occupy in the school where I work as a middle school counselor. So I taught school and it lasted only a year because it became evident to me very quickly that I really did not care about academics and their academic progress. But I was fascinated by the emotional development and the social dynamics and I loved talking to the kids about their just their lives outside of school and in school, but just the things that were sort of top of mind for them. So then I went on and I worked with kids in a residential treatment center and I loved it because it was the exact area that was sort of up my alley in terms of interest and fit. And at that point I went back and got my degree in social work and still didn't really have a clear sense of where I was headed with it. So I sort of meandered along. I worked in residential treatment centers for a while. I worked in adoption agencies for a while, doing birth parent counseling and also the home studies for prospective adoptive parents and trying to remember how did I find my way into therapy.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Actually, my husband and I spent a year in Spain many years ago.

Speaker 2: 3:45

He had a job opportunity, so we were there for what ended up being about a year and at that time I primarily taught English as a second language over there because that's what I was equipped to do as a native speaker of English.

Speaker 2: 3:57

And it was actually my husband who said you know, susan, over here the Americans and the Brits and the Australians, they don't really have any options for English speaking therapists. So I saw a few clients and realized I really enjoyed it and it was quite different from the trench social work I had done, where I was working with families who didn't necessarily want to be in the system getting help, and so after working with those kinds of families I kind of thought, oh my goodness, I made a mistake, social work wasn't the right thing. But then, once I saw what it was like working with people who were choosing on their own, of their own volition, to be talking to somebody, it was quite different. So at that point I sort of set my sights on that and began working in a group practice and then later went out on my own in my own private practice. So I sort of have done a lot of different things, but there are some common threads through all of it.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Right, yeah, and you and I have had sort of a similar journey into therapy, because I was a professor at Temple University for quite some time and I realized that, hey, I enjoyed you know, as much as I enjoyed teaching. It was more like I enjoyed hanging out with the students and really interacting with them and sort of really listening to what they were going through. And it became pretty evident that they were coming in for, you know, resources for mental health to me, while you know I was sending them to the counseling center. So it kind of became very evident to me as well that I enjoyed having those conversations, I enjoyed teaching, but like I did not really care about the academic side of it at all. So to that end, yes, definitely, you know, kind of moving into becoming a full time therapist, especially with teens.

Speaker 1: 5:59

And, yeah, and to even the private practice piece, I worked at agencies and it was really difficult, difficult for finding hardcore resources for women. But, boy, like agency work is the toughest work to do and I don't know how people do that. And I had amazing experiences with the women who worked at these agencies, giving literally 24, seven of their time and energy. So, yeah, quite, quite a similar journey and it's fascinating yeah, it's fascinating that you traveled, literally and figuratively, and came to this place of sort of starting your private practice.

Speaker 2: 6:49

And one of the things that I frequently say to younger folks that are at the beginning of their career and sort of trying to figure out what trajectory they'd like to pursue is that a lot of times you have to let it evolve, and so I use myself as an example that the job that I'm in now as a full time middle school counselor is really ideally suited for me. It just it's a great fit. However, had I wanted that job at 25 or 30, I couldn't have had it because it didn't exist. And so you know, fast forward a few decades, with mental health issues becoming more prominent. Now I can have it.

Speaker 1: 7:25

Yeah, and that too like being a middle school counselor it is. I really think it's such a tough job because that's the age where students I mean kids are really going through almost like a turmoil of things hormones, social, cultural just exploration with identity and things like that. So that's a tough age to be in, I think the toughest age to be in. Not that the later teenagers are super easy, but I feel like there is more awareness around that and a lot of help.

Speaker 2: 8:08

You know it's funny because so many people you know you're just out in the world and someone says, what do you do for a living? And I say, oh, I'm a middle school counselor and I get a lot of oh, god bless you, I'm sure. I love it, it's, it's great, and I don't. I mean, I think middle schoolers can be quite challenging for their parents, but as somebody who's in their life at school, I don't find it difficult in that way and I really enjoy seeing the growth.

Speaker 2: 8:33

I think the difference between the 10 year olds who come in as fifth graders and then the 14 year olds who are graduating middle school as eighth graders it's staggering. The only time where I see such a great, a vast amount of change and growth and development in a short time would be, maybe, birth to three years old. I think nothing, nothing compares to the amount of change in those early years. But it's really that some of these eighth graders are just unrecognizable, not only physically but in terms of, you know, personality and how they've evolved from the little people that they were as 10 year olds.

Speaker 1: 9:10

Yeah, yeah, so why do you think it's so tough for parents with their middle schoolers?

Speaker 2: 9:18

Oh boy, that is a vast question.

Speaker 2: 9:21

Right like a big question yeah, yeah, I think part of it is that the kids are going through so much change and in such a short period of time. So of course everyone talks about hormones, and sure that's part of it. It can be a real bumpy ride in terms of your sunny seven year old is now a booty snarky 12 or 13 year old. I think part of the difficulty too is that in middle school the kids are at such disparate levels of growth and development. So you can have kids who are, you know, 10 or 12, going on 17, 18, 25. You can also have kids who are 13 and and they're still very happy to be in a little kid place of playing and simplicity and maybe purity, for lack of a better word. So I think that might be part of it. Is that for kids? I think that can be part of it is? I've certainly had kids say to me you know, oh, mrs Moroto, you know she's getting really interested in boys and I just, I just kind of want to still play with my dolls, you know. So I think I think for them it can be a challenge that they're they're not all on the same page in terms of how they're growing and evolving. And then I think you know everybody talks about social media.

Speaker 2: 10:36

I do think it has made it more challenging for kids and for parents, and I think the other piece is that parenting has really changed, and so, if I think back to when I was a kid in the 1970s, there was much more.

Speaker 2: 10:50

I'm going to use the term benign neglect. I remember reading a book, a parenting book, when my own girls were little, and it said something to the effect of would that we could all treat the first child with the same benign neglect that the fourth child in the family receives, and that really resonated with me that you know, we're in an age where anxiety has become a really, really strong theme and many, many, many more people seem to be experiencing it, and so, then, I think that impacts the way that parents function, and the degree to which parents are immersed in their middle schoolers lives on. The day to day is quite different than how it was when I was a kid, where parents took a more hands-off role and as long as you showed up alive for dinner and they hadn't gotten a phone call that you'd done something really horrific while you were out in the world, all was well, and so I think all of that makes it hard and challenging yeah, for sure, and you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: 11:56

Like parenting has changed so much, we do want to be sort of kind of a mix of being a friend but also being a little bit more in control, but also being available, but also sort of not having them take us for granted. So there's a lot of sort of parenting styles and techniques that parents are now sort of working with and really kind of or exploring and not knowing where they stand within that too, so that the anxiety piece I think also comes from the fact that we are trying so many different ways to be a parent than our own parents, and then we also learn from our own parents about parenting.

Speaker 1: 12:46

So it's kind of really that navigation of different ways of being a parent. But at the same time I'm also seeing and I'm sure you are sort of the anxiety rising in adolescence as well in terms of just being a middle schooler in middle school going through different things. So then in your sort of practice and experience, how do we navigate that as? As parents right, because I mean I get with kids. It's a different thing, but as adults, like how, how are we kind of? How do we navigate that?

Speaker 2: 13:26

Great question and, and you know clearly, there's not going to be a one-size-fits-all answer, because every kid is different, so each kid is going to require or thrive under different circumstances or different. You know parenting styles and techniques, I think so.

Speaker 1: 13:45

You're asking for parents sort of what are sort of best practices, or maybe that or in your experience, like what have you seen kind of helped parents and I totally agree with you that you know it's not one-size-fits-all parents really have to kind of figure it out through their own journey, but sort of any. When you talk to parents, when you kind of in your practice at school, how do you, what do you tell parents? How can you?

Speaker 2: 14:16

know, a lot of times what I say is it's going to be okay and and that's, I think, is what they're most needing to hear. I think the level of parental angst has grown. I think parents work much harder at being good parents. Yeah, that I think parenting was sort of an afterthought back in the day. It was sort of, you know, the kids were there and they were sort of rolling around on seat belted in the back of the station wagon and and I don't think parents in decades past were as consumed with how do I be a good parent? But I think parents today, for better or for worse, have picked up their parenting books and they're they're diligently sort of studying the art of parenting, which is great in one hand, but sometimes I think they've stressed themselves out too much, or quite frequently I think they've stressed themselves out too much. So part of what I want to say to parents is that if you look at child rearing practices the world over, they are vastly different. So there are cultures that where there's a lot more attachment, parenting and babies are carried in slings and family beds and so forth, and those kids turn out fine, but so do kids who are raised in other circumstances. So I think a lot of times it's actually helpful to put the book down and sort of go inward and have the parent reflect on what's feeling right for me and for our family and and also to watch the child. How is he or she responding? And so you know, I can definitely remember a time where, when my, my older one, was kind of strong willed, a bit of a handful, and we had some challenges in the early years and I did take to the books and found some very helpful ones, which I can mention titles if you're interested, and when I change things it really did change the dynamics. So I think that's part of it is you know how, how was the kid responding? And trying to take note of that.

Speaker 2: 16:08

And I think American parents in particular are very consumed with comparisons, beginning when that baby pops out of the womb. How many hours a night is your infant sleeping? Uh-oh, mind's not sleeping that many hours. What am I doing wrong? Is she rolling over? Is he walking? You know, are we holding a fork?

Speaker 2: 16:25

And my answer to all of that is just relax that by the time they get to first grade, everybody's peeing on the body, barring gross developmental delays, everybody's holding the fork in a spoon and everybody's learned how to tie their shoes and nobody cares whether your kid walked at nine months or 18 months. And so again, as long as the pediatrician is not concerned about developmental delays, you probably don't need to worry. I think that's a lot of what I'm telling parents, and even when I think for parents it's very painful to watch their kids struggle, so understandable. I think it's hard to watch anyone you love struggle, but as cliched or tried as it might sound, it's not going to do the kid any good. If you, if you not that you could, but if you were able to cushion them from all of life's difficulties, then there's no resilience, there's no life's going to knock them down and they've got to learn how. How do you get back up again?

Speaker 1: 17:25

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great advice, and one of the things that you talked about is comparisons, and it's so common, especially as kids grow older. I mean that it is, you know, like you said, they are going to tie their shoes, they are going to learn how to be on the party by, you know, earlier on in life. But I think as kids enter sort of these adolescent years and kind of are also changing, as parents, as caregivers, we are also thinking about their learning, their social skills, their ability to grasp their ability to explore, and there is so much more pressure now on middle schoolers to perform and be well rounded, or all rounded.

Speaker 1: 18:16

And that sort of pressure. What are you seeing in your practice when it comes to pressure at this, this kind of crucial age?

Speaker 2: 18:27

I would say that kids today, hands down, are so much more pressured than kids were when I was a kid. So I see it in everything from well, for example, college. I think that's, you know, part of the driver of child and teen anxiety and parental anxiety is my kid going to get into a good college. And so you know, when I was a child and a teen, the only reason I ever engaged in any activity was because it was appealing to me. Full stop, end of story. Whereas kids today are so conscious of I need to be building my resume, I need to.

Speaker 2: 19:05

You know, I've had kids as young as 10 who are in tears because they've gotten their first dreaded B plus and they will. They're very convinced that they're not going to get into a top college because of it. And you know I've had to say to them no, not true. You know they're not even looking at your grades in middle school and I really, till I'm blue in the face to say you know, pretty much everybody gets into a college and most people like where they go. If you don't like it, you're going to transfer and you can have a successful life even if you don't go to whatever a quote, unquote top college is. I give them many examples of people that I know that have done so, people that are personal friends of mine that maybe didn't even complete college but have had flourishing careers making six digit salaries, uninterrupted, continually, for several decades. I don't know that they believe me. I think they think I'm fabricating it, but I'm honestly not. These really are my friends.

Speaker 1: 20:02

Yeah, and so how are they able to handle comparisons at that age, when there is so much pressure, there is so much sort of comparison that they see around them. Are they able to manage it on some level? Are you sort of helping them figure that out?

Speaker 2: 20:27

They're, by and large, not managing it as well as I would like. So you know, for example, I'm thinking of a particular young pumpkin that when she burst into tears over the grade that was in the B range and the tears are streaming. She also said that she felt bad about herself as a person because other kids had figured out what their passion is and I don't know what my passion is, and that was so alarming to me that you know, wow, you could be a whole lot older, many decades older, and it's still okay if you don't know what that is. You still have time to explore and try different things and figure it out. But I think they're tracked so young.

Speaker 2: 21:08

I've had kids tell me in middle school by seventh grade well, no, I'm not going to try out for such and such a sport, why not? Well, I'm not good enough. What do you mean by that? Well, other kids have been playing since they were six and they have, you know, maybe private one-on-one instruction in whatever the sport is, and I would just be picking it up as a newbie and I'm never going to be able to compare to them. And that is just. That's really concerning to me, because I think that you should be able to try a new thing really at any age and engage in it for no other reason than fun.

Speaker 1: 21:39

You don't have to want to be on a competitive team, yeah yeah, it's really hard for them to understand that they can be their own person and they will be their own person eventually. It's such an upheaval during that age because they're also, I think, for girls especially. The issue of body image also weighs in so much more. I would assume then, boys at that age, Do you say that I would?

Speaker 2: 22:10

assume I believe so, but I you know, for full disclosure, I really know a lot more about girls. The only two that I raised are both girls, and the school that I work in is all girls. So my knowledge of what boys are like at that age comes primarily through friends and acquaintances and clients that have boys that talk to me about it. So my sense is that you're correct. I do know that girls are very aware at, again, alarmingly young ages. I've had kids as young as 10 telling me that they felt bad because they had ice cream after lunch. Well, why?

Speaker 1: 22:45

do you?

Speaker 2: 22:45

feel bad about that and they look at me like I have three heads. Well, you know, I'm going to get fat. And you know, and these are kids who are physically active and because they're prepubescent, they're still little stick arms and legs, you know, not an ounce of visible body fat on them, but they're concerned.

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, yeah, um, to you kind of sort of how do you see friendships evolve during this time?

Speaker 2: 23:10

Friendships are very intense and I think that it you know in my experience and again working with girls, I think that the friends that they have primarily with other girls but you know any friend that's platonic I think they have a whole lot more invested in that than they do in their romances. The romances seem to come and go, there may be a few tears, but it doesn't last long. But the intensity around the, the female friends and the friend group, which is this phenomenon that I'm still kind of shaking my head over and trying to understand it because it's different than what I grew up with, but it's very intense and it really means a lot to them. And having a, the right friend group that you fit in with is super important and there's a lot of time and energy invested in. Is this the right group for me? What about the group over there? Would I be a better fit with that group?

Speaker 2: 24:06

There's some rigidity that I see around friendship groups that concerns me. Where you know it plays out in the cafeteria where you sit at lunch, and so I've had girls come in quite convinced so-and-so doesn't want to be my friend anymore. And then I say, how do you know that? Well, she sat at a different table for lunch and then I say, well, could it be possible that she just wanted to change it up, that she was having an interesting discussion in third period and wanted to continue it, that she wants to talk about the science project that they're working on together, you know, do you think that you could still hold a spot in the friend group open for her if she wants to come back? But that going to sit at another table is really that's a big deal and it means a lot to them.

Speaker 1: 24:55

And I'm also wondering why is friend groups so important to them? You know, I mean, I understand that friendships are important, but to be sort of in that friend group consistently. What's going on there?

Speaker 2: 25:14

Quite honestly, I haven't figured it out. I don't know that. I know why it's so important, especially because I will also hear things like well, she's not in my friend group and I say, okay, so you're not, you're not much in touch with her, and then you're like, oh no, we're friends, so you can be friends with somebody who's not in your friend group. And sometimes they like that because then they have a friend who is outside of the group that's sort of not tainted with the gossip, the drama, the whatever the high stakes stuff is going on in the group. And actually my own daughter sort of did that. She went through a public high school but her bestie was a child that was not at that school and that and I think she really valued that friend, in part because that friend was not at that school and was not a part of the drama. And so my daughter knew that any conflict, any drama, that bestie from out of school was going to be on her side.

Speaker 1: 26:11

It's very interesting to sort of hear that because you're right when we were growing up, that was not a. Thing. We were friends with someone. But I mean, I'm thinking back in middle school, high school I didn't have a friend group, but also I grew up in India and there wasn't sort of a cafeteria, at least when I was growing up now things have changed. But I'm also wondering if this, this concept of friend group, has to do with sort of having to fit in somewhere.

Speaker 1: 26:47

And sort of that. Fitting in also means that these are four people, or five people who completely as much as possible at age 12, that they actually accept me for who I am and that I don't have to change.

Speaker 2: 27:07

Yeah, I do think there's a safety and a security in it that when I go to the cafeteria I know where my table is and I know where my people are and I know that when we get together on the weekend I'm going to be included with that group. Although, I will say, as the friend group gets bigger, I see the problems arise because of the size of the group and it becomes unwieldy. And so, while the kids intellectually understand that if you're going to have a friend group of 12, 14 people, most moms are not going to volunteer on an every weekend basis, that all those kids can come to my house for a sleepover, or they're not going to be able to fit all those kids in the vehicle to go to the place that they're going to be spending time. They understand it, but it doesn't stop the hurt feelings and the upset. Why did you invite her and not me? Well, you invited her several times in a row. It's been a while since you invited me and it's really challenging.

Speaker 1: 28:05

And I mean challenging, for obvious reasons. I'm also wondering how do we then talk to these sort of kids adolescent about what that means and what they can learn from it?

Speaker 2: 28:24

I spend a lot of time trying to talk to kids about encouraging them to be more flexible, flexible in their thinking, flexible in their kind of how they're perceiving things. That you know. Could you just sort of accept it that of course it's hurtful, like nobody wants to be left out, but, you know, is there not another kid that you might be able to spend time with if the bulk of your friend group is doing X activity? And it also kind of leads a bit into the social media discussion, because I think the difference is, you know, when I grew up and there weren't even cell phones, you know there just were landlines. At that point their kids may have gotten together but I didn't necessarily know about it, whereas now they're seeing the pictures in real time and that is so painful and so hurtful and I really admire the maturity.

Speaker 2: 29:13

I can remember one kid on a Friday afternoon I don't remember whether I came up with the idea or she did, but she said I'm turning my phone over to my mother and I'm going to have her get rid of any pictures that would be upsetting, meaning of the friends getting together without her. And I thought that was like such a wise thing to do to just why torture yourself if you know it's going to bring pain and there's no real benefit to be had? Why do you need to see those pictures dangled in front of you? I beg kids all day long. We as a school, we beg our children. Please do not pick, post the pictures of the gathering and we tell them why somebody's going to get their feelings hurt.

Speaker 2: 29:50

The thing that is concerning and alarming to me is kids don't buy into that. You know, for the most part what I hear is a lot of well, that's kind of ridiculous. I don't know why she gets her feelings hurt. You know I don't get my feelings hurt when I'm not included. It's a hard sell trying to get them not to post the pictures.

Speaker 1: 30:10

Yeah, for sure, and social media definitely plays a big part in creating sort of these rifts and conflicts and jealousies and really like unhappiness around things and to be that young and not knowing how to kind of process it is really I mean difficult for these young teens.

Speaker 1: 30:35

I'm also wondering sort of what empathy role empathy can play in this right, as you mentioned that you know they say someone might say that hey, but I don't get my feelings hurt, why should she? So I'm wondering, like, how would you kind of bring in empathy and help them process that?

Speaker 2: 31:05

I am so glad you asked, because that one I do have an answer to. So you're correct that the data that I'm aware of has indicated that empathy scores have dropped quite a bit in teens over the last decade or two, presumably because of screens. I mean, I don't know that we know 100% sure why, but we can can postulate that screens have played a role because they're spending less time in face to face interaction. I then am going to add the fact that for the time at the pandemic, a lot of kids were either at home and not having as much interaction with other kids, or even if they were in a school that remained open during the pandemic, there were masks, so half of the face was hidden. So to the degree that you're looking at facial cues, half of those cues went away. So, one of the things that I became aware of, there was a speaker at our school who had written a book and she said empathy cannot be taught out of a workbook. It has to be a lived experience, and I 100% agree with that. That. The little worksheets about. You know how do you think Johnny feels when he learned? You know, forget it. What good does that do?

Speaker 2: 32:13

However, there is something that has been shown to increase kids empathy and that is, believe it or not, bringing a baby into the classroom. So there's a yeah, there's a program called roots of empathy. It's based, or it was piloted, in Canada, but has since made its way to the United States and some school districts and I brought it to my school, where you bring a baby in and the value is, I think, several fold. A lot of it is that the baby can't talk. So the kids, when they look at the baby and try to figure out what's going on, they have to go by body language and facial cues. So if somebody says, oh, she looks like she's going to cry, I say how do you know that? Well, you know, I saw her face scrunch up or her cheeks turned red or the lips started to quiver.

Speaker 2: 32:59

Babies tend to bring out the softer side of people. So the schools that have done it have seen bullying go down and have seen empathy go up. I can only tell you we only did it in one year in my school and I didn't do any pre and post measures, so I don't have any hard data to present, but I do know that they like it. It's a big draw. They get very excited when the baby's coming and and they're wonderfully respectful. You know I prep them ahead of time that the baby's in charge. You know they say, well, can I hold the baby? And I say I don't know, that's going to be up to her. You know we can try it if she's okay and her mom's okay with it. But if she starts to fuss we're going to go with what's best for her. Not that you would enjoy holding her.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Yeah, yeah, no, that's such a great program that's really is. It's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 33:45

Yeah, I had gone to my, the director of our middle school, before the pandemic and I said can I have a baby in the classroom? She said sure, and then the pandemic came along and squashed it. And I was so excited post pandemic, and so appreciative of the mom who allowed us to borrow her little one, that even with germs raging she brought her in and we opened the windows and put our masks on and played with the baby.

Speaker 1: 34:08

Yeah, yeah, no, that's amazing because that also makes me think about what are some of the ways in which parents can help their teen and young teens sort of empathize with other people? Right, because I do understand at school that their kids are there for seven hours, some hours, but you know they're home for longer than that and I truly do believe that empathy can play a big role in kind of helping them understand conflicts process it also kind of interact with their peers.

Speaker 1: 34:49

So are there some things that you would suggest for parents when it comes to empathy?

Speaker 2: 34:54

I think, first and foremost is the role modeling of it. I think that kids tend to absorb a lot of what we're. You know, whether we're conscious of it or not, we are all day long, every minute of the day, we are modeling behaviors that they're taking in and absorbing. So to the degree that any of us and we all do, you know we get mad, I can't believe so, and so did that. It might be nice to follow it up with, but I guess I have to remember that's a person too and I don't know what might be going on in that person's private life that's challenging for them, that might have made them lose their temper or might have made them, you know, whatever the offense is.

Speaker 2: 35:35

I think that when kids come home and they talk about what's going on with so and so at school, parents can also sort of steer towards. You know, what do you think that behavior was about? Or what do you might be going on for her? You know I all day long I say to kids I'm going to say a sentence and then you tell me when you figure out what it means hurt people, hurt people, and it doesn't take very long and they get it and then a lot of times they'll say and I'm so a lot of times I'm blown away by the sort of wisdom, maturity and insight that young kids can have. And I've had kids say you know so and so is awful, and she does this and she does that. And then I say and are we remembering that? Hurt people, hurt people. And she'll say you know what I do, know things are rough at home. And then she'll tell me what she knows about that kid's personal life. Not that we're excusing the behavior, but we're trying to put it in a context of understanding it Right.

Speaker 2: 36:31

And I mean and then I also have consequences for that behavior? Yeah, Sure, and then I, you know I also, you know, talk through with kids. You know, let's do a little role play. You know how do you stand up for yourself in a way that's assertive, but you're not stooping down to her level. I don't want you to fight me, and with me I want you to fight me with. That wasn't okay. I didn't like it. Please don't do it again.

Speaker 1: 36:55

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great advice. One of the other things that I'm also thinking about with middle schoolers is actually making friends, and I hear from a lot of my clients parents, you know some of the listeners have emailed me about you know, like my middle schooler is not able to make friends, and do you see that in your practice? How do you kind of handle, or? You know how do you see that basically?

Speaker 2: 37:30

Well, I do see. I mean, for some that are social butterflies, it's really easy, and for others that are, you know, introverted or are perceived to be different in some way, maybe their interests are not as mainstream, it's harder. I do a lot of direct coaching. So the direct coaching that I do at school starts in the spring when I say to the kids all right, I want you to think forward. About four months from now you're all going to come back in September. You're going to be really excited to see each other and you're going to zip right over to the people you haven't seen. I can't wait to tell you.

Speaker 2: 38:03

I said you need to remember, think back. What did it feel like when you were new? They get where. I'm going with it. And so then I always say when you see that new kid standing over there and she's not talking to anybody, you're waving her over. Come and join us. You know like I'm going to, and if you're going to tell the joke that was the funny thing that happened last year or the year before that you need to fill her in. You know, here's the backstory on why it was funny.

Speaker 2: 38:29

And then, for the kids that are having trouble making friends, I'm coaching them as well. I'm saying you know, if you see somebody that you think might make a good friend, let's talk about ways to initiate a conversation. You can always say you know, wow, last night's math homework was really rough for me, how'd you do? Or I'm not sure what I'm going to pick for my history project. You know what kinds of things are you interested in. You know TV, books, shows, the dreaded social media. You know any ways of commonality are where you want to start.

Speaker 1: 39:02

Yeah that is super helpful and really this has been such a wonderful conversation. Middle school years are intense, like you said.

Speaker 2: 39:15

They are, they're very intense.

Speaker 1: 39:16

Yeah, but I think kids today and parents are trying their best to navigate those.

Speaker 2: 39:24

They really are. I think sometimes parents can help by taking one step back if they're super involved. So this is where I guess the phone gets super interesting too, because if I had wanted to share with my parents, it was all going to be my recap of what happened, whereas a kid today can hand the phone to her parent and say here's what she's texting me. And I've had kids tell me that their parents will coach them on how you're wording the reply text. I've had kids tell me not many but a few their parent might grab the phone, type up the response and then say you know, if you think it's okay, send it. So I think we need to let them fight their battles.

Speaker 2: 40:06

We can coach, but I think a really good idea if you're going to coach and this is not a, I didn't initiate this idea, I got this right from one of the parenting books but you're saying first I have a few thoughts. Would you like to hear it? If they say no, as hard as it is, your best strategy is going to be to button it up. I love that, but you know, honestly I don't see that most of them, both my personal ones and the ones at school, they say yes, I do want to hear what your thoughts are.

Speaker 1: 40:34

Yeah, yeah, because kids are open to sort of those ideas and as hurt as they are, and I think this is such a great advice for parents to sort of take a step back. And I believe this too.

Speaker 1: 40:49

Kids need time to process what they feel what they are going through and so, for example, sort of texting each other, they can do it, they, you know, because they. They then are able to take the responsibility for their own actions versus parent coaching, and then something you know comes back Correct and in that I think in that way kids are able to manage their own skills around these things right.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Because we are not going to be there for each and every experience that they have.

Speaker 2: 41:28

Correct. And when you said they need time to process, that triggered a thought in me which was a lot of them don't have as much time to process as I would like because they're busy, because of the like school, homework, structured activities, bed, and so, you know, it kind of sounds odd. It's not necessarily directly related to their friendship skills, but in a way it might be. Could you tone the activity scheduled down, you know, could we make time for kids to be a little bit bored now and then? And the other piece with that is sleep that very few of the middle schoolers that I work with are getting, the I think it's nine to 11 hours of sleep that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends for that age group, and the 11 hour end of it, you know, is going to be really hard to manage with the demands of school. But I do think that if you can tone the activity scheduled down, you're going to afford that kid a little more space to think and reflect and maybe sleep, all of which, in the long run, is going to help.

Speaker 1: 42:33

Yeah, such great advice. Thank you so much, Susan. It was wonderful talking to you and thank you again for being on the show.

Speaker 2: 42:42

Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having me.