Understanding Teen Issues in Divorce: A Mental Health Perspective

Have you ever wondered how divorce impacts teenagers, especially during their pivotal identity formation stage? On 'Answer my Call,' we welcomed Dr. Chloe Haaz, a mental health professional who unfolds the complexities of this issue. We dissected how teenagers, caught in the middle of their parents' divorce, face unique challenges, such as delayed milestones like dating, and the struggle of aligning with one parent.

Parents, too, need support during this tumultuous period, and we discussed how crucial it is to present a unified front of love and support to their children. We navigated the demanding task of being honest with teenagers about the divorce - all while ensuring their transition from one home to two is as smooth as possible. This episode is a deep exploration of the many facets of divorce as experienced by teenagers.

As we wrapped up, we didn't shy away from discussing the potential positive impacts of divorce on teenagers. We offered practical advice for parents going through separation, drawing on resources like Melinda Blau's 'Parents Apart' and Benjamin Garber's 'Keeping Kids Out of the Middle.' These invaluable insights and more are packed into this enriching episode, ready to equip you with the tools needed to support teenagers during a divorce and help them traverse this challenging life event.

Bio:
Dr. Chloe Haaz is a licensed psychologist and private practice owner in Fort Washington, PA.  Her practice services bright children, teens and parents experiencing divorce, anxiety and panic attacks.  Dr. Haaz also conducts psychological evaluations and Custody/Parenting Time evaluations for the Courts.  She is licensed in PA, NJ and NY.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hi everyone. I'm Rajuta, host of Answer my Call. I'm a mental health therapist and owner of Mindful Group Practice, located in Pennsylvania. I work primarily with teenagers and women in my practice. I'm a mom to two teenagers, always waiting for them to answer my call. Thank you, chloe, for agreeing to talk to me today and welcome to the podcast. I'm super excited to talk about this topic that generally doesn't get talked about that often within the space of mental health and so you have kind of experience and, I would say, a little bit of expertise in this field to be able to talk about divorce and how it impacts teenagers. Could we start a little bit by talking about how you came into this field of divorce and working with families, because to me as a therapist, that seems super overwhelming.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Well, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. A lot of people say that that it seems like an overwhelming area. I'll say the way that I got involved with families and divorce.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Originally, when I first started my training in psychology, I was at a school clinical child psychology program, so most of my training and experience was with families. So these were in schools, community mental health hospitals and I did my training in New York City where, for better or worse, we usually as trainees see the families that really are most in need of services and have the least amount of resources. So, that being said, I saw a lot of as a really young and inexperienced therapist a lot of families with a great deal of loss. So families who had come to the US immigrated from different countries with very little resources or very few family members, death loss, kids in foster homes, a lot of separations in families, and that's kind of how I started to get more experience with really complex families.

Speaker 2: 2:36

And then later on, as I was, when I was already a licensed clinician, I had the opportunity to work at a nonprofit doing custody evaluations. So that was about four years ago. I worked at Bergen Family Center and I still do some evaluations for them. And then I had the opportunity to really learn how to do custody and parenting time evaluations and I saw that there was really a tremendous need and so many families who were experiencing divorce, and when I opened my practice in Fort Washington about a year ago, I decided to make that one of my specialties and what I've seen is just an overwhelming amount of families experiencing divorce and just not enough clinicians who are open to working with these families.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Yeah for sure, and that's I mean, that's so amazing because as a mental health professional clinician, I do work with a lot of teenagers and a lot of families who've either been through divorce, are going through divorce, and I see how that impacts the child, the teenager and, in many ways, I think, the intersection of being an immigrant to this country and not having resources and your experience with working with those sort of intersectionalities. What are some of the issues that you think teenagers especially I mean every child goes through some sort of struggle when their parents are going through separation or divorce. But specifically in keeping with teenagers, what are some of the issues that you have seen in your experience?

Speaker 2: 4:28

I think for teenagers, they're really at the developmental stage where they're figuring out their identity and who they are, and for, I think, all kids, but maybe in particular teenagers, their parents are really the basis, the foundation for who they are. And when their parents separate or get divorced, right when they're at that age where they may start dating, they may start exploring what a romantic relationship looks like. I think there's like this risk for kind of fragmenting who they are as they're just kind of putting all those pieces together, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that will happen. I just think it's a vulnerable time to begin with, and particularly as they're forming their identity and kind of the bedrock of who they are. Their parents are now separating and going in different directions.

Speaker 1: 5:26

And so, in keeping with sort of identity and vulnerability, it is also time when they're looking to their parents for sort of advice in terms of dating, in terms of figuring out who they are. Again, in your experience, how do you see teenagers responding when it comes to their identity or their struggle with kind of dating? Does it impact them in any way, or how do they react?

Speaker 2: 6:01

Yeah, it's interesting because this could just be in the kids that I see. But I have noticed that it seems like dating is getting kind of pushed off until later years. Some of the adolescents I see who are, you know, right in that stage where you would expect them to start dating, like 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, even Not a lot of dating happening. And again, that could be in just the kids that I'm seeing it. I don't know that it's necessarily related to divorce, but I will say for teens, what I've seen in teens experiencing divorce is that I think they often feel that they're in the middle, they're caught in the middle, and the way that they express that is not necessarily saying it that way that you know, I feel stuck between my parents, but more that they start to kind of align with one parent and Almost like criticize or even reject the other parent, and I think that's the way that I usually see, that that feeling get played out in action, that they move towards one parent and move away from the other parent, and that's so interesting.

Speaker 1: 7:10

Do you think that that is something that parents themselves struggle with when it comes to their teenagers? Because there is that alignment and there is sort of? I guess the struggle is to to kind of come to this as a Team, but when, when it's divorce Separation, that's really hard. So I'm what I'm also thinking about is, when the child is aligning with one parent, is the parent also trying to align themselves, you know, to one of the kids, or as many you know kids, as they're going through this?

Speaker 2: 7:53

Yeah, I think every family is different in that regard and has their own specific dynamics. Sometimes I think it can happen With permissiveness, so where one parent you know with teens, and one becoming more independent, wanting to do more things on their own and yet still needing permission from parents. I think this is kind of like the perfect match between a A natural parenting challenge and a natural developmental stage. So sometimes I've seen where One parent who's more permissive you know, who's more comfortable with giving the teen more leeway, more, more independence, may kind of be favored, whereas parent who's more protective, not as comfortable with, you know, like them, spending more time out of the house or with friends or over nights.

Speaker 2: 8:46

I think that's one space where it can, it can get played out and I think it may also have to do with teens absorbing more of what we think that they're absorbing, because at that age, like they're in my practice, I see a Lot of kids who are very bright, who are Sensitive and curious and intuitive, and so they're kind of Not naturally in the world already with picking up and absorbing more than maybe other kids. And then when the parents are also going through a divorce, I think they're picking up on more than the parents sometimes realize. So if the parents aren't very Boundary about keeping their conflict outside of their Parenting which is very difficult to do I think the kids can become aware of what's going on between the parents and and then we naturally, as people, like we choose aside. I think that's why working with families and divorce is really challenging, because I think it there's just a Natural tendency to want to align with one person over the other.

Speaker 1: 9:55

Yeah, and that's so true, Like just as human beings we kind of want approval, and I think With sort of that developmental age, with teenagers especially, it's there is approval seeking, there is kind of learning how to be in this world, because parents are their first role models, our first role models. And to see that relationship and kind of almost thinking, okay, I should I be like one or the other parent, like maybe it's subconscious, right, but it's I feel like that need for acceptance is also so prevalent. So in your practice, do you see sort of kids in general but teens in particular, sort of seeking approval from one parent or acceptance from one parent and Then therefore aligning with that parent?

Speaker 2: 10:52

Yeah, I think that's a really good point that a lot of it may be coming from the parent. They just net their temperaments kind of naturally fit together better, so that maybe something was already there before the divorce and this made it heightened. And, yeah, when you feel more Connected or more accepted by anybody, I think you're naturally going to want to spend more time with that person. And teens are very sensitive to rejection Very. I mean, they really want to fit in, they really want to be liked. So I think that's really really important. And when they do feel criticized or rejected, you know, I think they feel it more just because of the age that they're at.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Yeah, I'm thinking of families that I have worked with. I mean, I mostly work with the teenager, but you know that comes kind of that goes hand in hand with families, and I've seen so many times one parent sort of Taking over almost sort of a lot of times what they think their child needs. And I'm wondering, in sort of Diverses, that that becomes more prevalent almost. And again, I understand that every family is different and you know every child's needs are different, but I'm thinking in terms of contentious divorce or where there is sort of you know, struggle between the parents themselves, that that kind of Also plays a part. So, in other words, I'm thinking like we are seeing this also from the teens perspective, but then flipping it over from the parents perspective Of how do I control this narrative? How do I control, you know, what's happening? Do you see sort of parents struggling with that as well and how you know and it's multi layered question, one that's struggling with that but also like, what do parents struggle with when it comes to sort of this process?

Speaker 2: 12:57

Yeah, I think that's a great question because A lot of people talk about divorce from the child center perspective, which you know makes perfect sense. But it's also Such a significant loss for the parents. I mean it's it's Probably one of the biggest losses of their lifetime and I think they're in a difficult position because a lot of the messages they may be getting it are around. You know you have to do that, you have to, you have to do this for the kids. You have to kind of put your feelings aside and just get along for the kids and in a different context, they may part ways with the spouse and never talks them again, which generally is impossible when you're divorcing with children.

Speaker 2: 13:48

So they're going through a huge loss, maybe even a trauma for some parents, depending on their experience, their resources, their expectations, and then they have to still remain in contact with that other parent and they have to parent their child.

Speaker 2: 14:08

So it's a lot for them, and so I would always recommend that parents really take care of themselves, and I mean that really seriously, that they have their own support network. It doesn't have to be through therapy, but I think therapy is a really great resource for them because if they're feeling they can regulate themselves, that they have the support to talk about what's going on, process really challenging relationship dynamics. They're gonna be just more available to their kid. So I think that's something that gets overlooked a lot and is really important for the parents to prioritize themselves. And then, regarding the dynamics with the kids, I think whenever we're feeling anxious, of course we wanna control more and this is a situation of high anxiety. So I think sometimes you do see when parent become a little bit more controlling and of course, that's really hard with teens because they want freedom and independence, so there could be a clash there.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Yeah, I'm also thinking, as you were talking, about trauma.

Speaker 1: 15:22

When I worked at one of the agencies, we had sort of a lot of women coming in.

Speaker 1: 15:31

It was specifically geared towards women and counseling and a lot of women were coming in sort of going through life transitions and one of the big thing was divorce and a lot of women were also coming in with a lot of trauma and abuse, intimate partner violence, emotional abuse, things like that and we were seeing teens in our practice at our agency and working with them during that period of time and the sort of the impact of trauma, impact of abuse, was so severe.

Speaker 1: 16:08

And so I really appreciate you talking about that in terms of self-care for the parent who's been through trauma, or both parents who've been through trauma, who've been through sort of abuse, and how sort of to remove yourself from that situation and take care of yourself, because if you are not regulated like you mentioned, then you're not available for your teenagers and there's such a big sort of support system for parents who are going through abuse and we can definitely list some of the resources in the show note and that's also one of the things that we struggled with during that time was how do we talk to the teen about what's happening with the divorce with their parents and do you, or have you in your practice, seen that and how would parents talk to their teenagers about divorce?

Speaker 2: 17:11

I think that's a question that's coming up more and more, that I'm seeing in my practice, and I think it's great parents wanna be thoughtful about how to explain this to their teenagers or their other kids. I think there's a few components that are important when you're explaining a divorce. One is, I think that you wanna the parents want to give a pretty clear sense of closure, so that there's not an opening for kids' imaginations to go to a place of maybe one day they'll get back together. If you're really getting a divorce, I think you wanna be clear that this is the end.

Speaker 2: 17:53

I think it works well to say something like we loved each other, we were married for a long time, the best thing that we made in our marriage was you or you guys, and just because we're not gonna be married forever or our love is not gonna be forever, our love for you is forever. Something about how it's a breakup. I think you can't avoid that and it's important that kids hear that, because there is a sense of closure and a sense, and I think that has to come from, basically, we don't love each other anymore, but we do love you, and the idea that, although the marriage wasn't good forever, the kids are the most amazing thing that came out of it and that's the best thing that they did together.

Speaker 1: 18:46

And that message is so important for any child to hear from their parents, that sort of unconditional love and unconditional presence from the parent, and if it's sort of said together like as a team which I think with a lot of times when it comes to divorce is so hard for parents to come together as a team, as kind of these partners in parenting or co-parenting, to be able to say that, yes, we are here for you and we are always here for you.

Speaker 2: 19:20

So I think it's a great reminder for parents that to be able to do that yeah, that's a really important point that ideally the parents would deliver that message together and that it would be coming from a place of we and that the message would be the same from both parents and that whatever has occurred between them, the details are not really necessary for the kids to hear.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Yeah, and that actually is such an important point because a lot of times, even when I did some of the work with women specifically who were going through divorce, that was one of the things that came up over and over again. How much do we tell our kids, how much do we talk to our teenagers about what is happening to us, Right like it was about them and granted again that they were going through abuse. So it was also important for them to kind of figure things out from that perspective. But what would you sort of say to that? How much do you talk to your teenagers or to your kids about the process of divorce or even what's happening in the marriage?

Speaker 2: 20:37

I think as a general rule I would keep it pretty brief, with the caveat that you will have to be adjusted for each kid. I think sometimes teens have a lot of questions and we have to be creative about how to answer them. Sometimes we can't take a question necessarily at face value, but to take a moment and think about where that question might be coming from and how you can give an answer. That is true, because I think it's really important not to lie to kids. So for you to give an answer, that's true, but not necessarily one that's giving all of the facts, because they may not need to know that.

Speaker 2: 21:22

For example, this was with a younger child, but a parent asked me what to tell the child who was asking where someone who was the one of the parents' best friends. One of the parents had a best friend who was a very dear friend to them but in the context of the divorce, ended up getting accused of touching the child inappropriately and the parent was asking what am I supposed to say to this child, my child, who keeps asking where is the one parent's best friend? What happened to them? So that's an example of a very good question what do you say?

Speaker 2: 22:06

And so we thought about it together and we came up with explain to the child that that person had moved away. They hadn't literally moved away and in fact the parent still saw them not with the child, of course, but they still saw them at times, but they had moved out of the child's life. So we felt that was appropriate. And so sometimes I think children really in teens they want to understand what is happening in a very complicated situation and we just have to be thoughtful about giving them an honest answer that doesn't have to be literally honest, but it's going to be age appropriate, in a way that they can understand.

Speaker 1: 22:46

That's a really good example because it's so complicated and to a young child it could create more complications. So sort of being aware and sort of understanding, like you mentioned, sort of what age they are at and how to be kind of honest, with some boundaries around that. So yeah, that's wow. And I'm also thinking kids, especially teenagers. They know what's going on in their home and sort of them asking certain questions is already based on what's going on. So, yeah, to your point, I think a lot of compassion is needed during that kind of conversation and understanding, like you mentioned. And I'm also thinking would you agree, like kind of also talking to the loss of that relationship in a way, between parents, but kind of focusing on the relationship with the child and that could be a complicated place to be at for the parent. Like there is this loss of relationship between the parents, but then how does the child kind of understand that it's not a loss of relationship for them with each parent? Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 24:20

Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of that could also be in how the parents facilitate the transition from one home to two homes. So, for example, if the teen is still able to have contact with the parent, like even if they can't physically see them, can they FaceTime them? Are they given the privacy to do that? Can they even talk about the other parent? There are things that they did with the other parent.

Speaker 2: 24:47

So I think a lot of that is kind of more how it's handled day to day and kind of, as you said, the teen picks up on the feelings around the topic. So how one parent deals with even hearing about the other parent, is one parent kind of badmouth the other parent, like they are picking up on all of that and I think a lot of it is. It could be spoken about directly, but I don't think it has to be. I think it can be in how they facilitate the transition and those connections, just even though there may not be physical connections anymore when they move it to two homes, just how that's all dealt with.

Speaker 1: 25:27

Yeah, and I think, like you mentioned before, sort of having that support system to be able to kind of even have that conversation, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a grandparent, whether it's sort of a friend, a community member and I think that can facilitate this discussion with the teenager or with siblings and children in kind of a more contained way, I would guess. Are there any? And I know this is such a strange question, but are there any positive effects for the children, particularly teenagers, when it comes to divorce? And I already, as I'm asking you this question, I'm like, OK, is that even a good question?

Speaker 2: 26:17

I think it is a good question because I think there are scenarios where parents are staying together for sometimes long periods of time when they know the relationship is over, and there's a message out there about staying together for the kids.

Speaker 2: 26:33

What is that really role model for the kids? Like they're coming from this perspective that the kids really generally know more than we think that they do, they're picking up on the emotional climate of the home. So, from that point of view, I think, when the relationship is over, being able to talk about it, being able to show your kids that sometimes things do end, and you're prioritizing each parent, prioritizing themselves Maybe they'll go on to have a different relationship and a more loving relationship, or they'll just be able to be a more loving parent. I think we kind of have some resistance to that, I think because we want to sacrifice everything for our kids, but I don't know that that's really helpful for kids, especially teens. They're just dating relationship journey is kind of just starting out. I think actually it could be a really powerful message for the parents to model an ending and model taking care of themselves and rebuilding something.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Thank you. Thank you for that because I myself wasn't sure whether how do we talk about the positive impact of divorce, but I mean, that is an empowering message to say that I took care of myself because I wasn't sort of happy in this relationship and that to be able to love still be able to love your child, but from a different place. So, yeah, thank you for that. Are there any sort of ideas, tips that you have that can help teens sort of adjust to a divorce? And then also I'm kind of flipping the question a little bit, since we've talked about that like parents adjust to divorce, right, so from both ends.

Speaker 2: 28:43

I think I'm starting with parents. I think something that is very challenging but important is to see, try to see the other parent not as the person in the relationship anymore, but as a co parent. And what I mean is like oftentimes in the relationship there was just all this resentment or pain or betrayal, you know, all these really like charged experiences they had together, but that can then get carried over into how the one parent is going to view the other parent, which then can spill onto the child. Does that make sense? So so to try to you know, and then also an extreme situation sometimes if there was abuse between the parents, it can be really hard for one parent in particular, the parent who was more feeling that the other parent was abusive towards them. You know it can be hard for them not to assume that that's going to happen to their child, and so it's possible. But it's also possible that parent could have, could potentially have some benefit for the child to be in touch with them, even if it's a distant relationship. So I think I do actually see these dynamics in a lot of families where there's such painful experiences that have happened between the parents that you know, one child, the child can get so aligned with one and completely reject the other. So I think, trying to see the co parent as a co parent, as the child's parent, rather than the person they were in a relationship with, because the relationship has ended, and then I think it has to evolve into something more like a professional relationship, which might sound really far fetched and incredibly challenging, but you know, to be a co parent it's. It is kind of like a professional relationship because you're you're doing a lot of caretaking, managing schedules, getting somebody from here to there, I mean, and you can enjoy your child together potentially too.

Speaker 2: 31:15

But I think that's something that's missing in a lot of the parents I see that are involved in the high conflict of versus. They're acting like they're still in a relationship, an intimate relationship with the parent, which you know naturally is activating everyone and getting everybody into fight flight mode and then kind of distorting who that person is for the child, because for the child they're not that person that you were in a relationship with. There they could actually be very different. And then I think it's a little more challenging for tips for teens because they don't have the perspective, they're just in it there and they didn't have a choice of, you know, in this happening and you know, I think, for teens, I would say having some forum to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 32:09

You know it could be. It could be through a group, it could be through individual therapy, it could be with just connecting with other teens who are having similar experience, I think, because it could be really isolating and feel like something is wrong with them. Or, you know, I think the power of normalizing divorce is really strong and oftentimes in my work with teens, when their parents are going through a divorce, I'm really not trying to change anything for them, you know, it's really just a lot of it is being there with them and allowing them to just express their feelings about what's going on. It's so complicated and there's so many emotions already coming up for teenagers and then us too.

Speaker 1: 32:52

No, that's such a great point, because a lot of times I feel like they can blame themselves and it feels like it's their fault that you know their parents are going through a divorce and for them to be able to express themselves freely, whether it's in a space like group or individual therapy, can be very empowering to understand and self and reflect on what's going on. So, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Yeah, and I just want to add too, I think, because there's just such a, it seems in my experience, there's such a like gravitational pull to just align with one parent, I think over time, like helping them to sort of disentangle that and again coming back to like their identity formation and what is really, what do really they believe, because it's just like they're so in the middle between potentially hearing things from one, this parent and that parent, and I think that they can kind of come to that on their own with guidance, but like that's. I think that's the motivation for helping them to just express themselves, so that eventually they can kind of have more perspective, see things more clearly and kind of disentangle like what they, what is them, not just their alignments or their, their position.

Speaker 1: 34:24

Oh, that's such a great point, beautifully said. What is sort of your approach to working with families when it comes to divorce?

Speaker 2: 34:36

That's a good question. It's very much in the works and I'm always trying to learn from different families I've worked with in different cases to kind of make things work better. But I think with families going through a divorce, I try to really come from like a non-dualistic approach. So like, in other words, with divorce because there's generally some court involvement, I think there's just this natural tendency for it's all black. You know, there's a lot of black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking, good and bad, right or wrong, winner, loser. So I try to be very aware of those dynamics and kind of approach things like non-dualistically meaning, like not being inclined to black and white thinking and trying to be very neutral.

Speaker 2: 35:29

That being said, you know, being thrown into a conflict, like of course I'm gonna have reactions, I'm a human, I can't avoid it.

Speaker 2: 35:39

But I try to just to just be aware, just be aware of my reactions and come back to a middle position. Because ultimately, if I'm saying a teen for therapy, I know it's unhelpful for me to align with either parent because that's like it's informative, because that's likely how the teen feels, so it helps me understand them, but it's not gonna be helpful for me to get involved in sides. And so I do have a new, relatively new policy where I really don't work with families and let's both parents are involved, because I've just found that not to say that it can't be done, but I find that it's really challenging to work with a teen when only one parent of separated or divorced parents is present and involved, because I'm only hearing their side. But, more importantly, from the teen's perspective it's it feels like imbalanced. So I tried to have that perspective and that mindset mentally of being neutral, but also I try to put in my practices as well.

Speaker 1: 36:49

No, we're all evolving right. And with those experiences, yeah, it's kind of unfair to ask like, what's your one approach? Right, there's no one approach. It's really about catering to the needs of that family. So, yeah, I totally hear you when you say that it's evolving and it's kind of ongoing and that's great to hear. So my last question to all my guests is would you be willing to share some resources for parents who are going through divorce and any advice in a way that you could share?

Speaker 2: 37:31

Sure. So there's two books that I think are really good and they're books for parents. So the first is called growing up with divorce and it's by Neil Coulter and it's nice because it talks about different stages of divorce and it goes through each developmental stage. So if you have a teenager and you're going through divorce, you can flip right to that chapter and you know read about how the things you really want to be mindful of that particular age. And then there's another one, called keeping kids out of the middle, by Benjamin Garber, which is another book that has very practical advice. For example, there's a section on how to tell kids that you're getting a divorce and it talks about the timing and when you want to tell them. So both books, I think, give really good advice that parents can put into practice.

Speaker 1: 38:24

Yeah, thank you so much for that and thank you so much for sort of sharing your experience, being so open about the struggles that parents and teenagers face, and I know that parents can sort of now have a point of start starting their you know sort of journey if they are going through separation of divorce to talking to their teenagers. So I appreciate this conversation so much and thank you so much for coming on this podcast to talk to me about it.

Speaker 2: 38:59

You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.