Supporting LGBTQIA+ Teens: Mental Health, Advocacy, and Affirming Care

This podcast episode is like a lighthouse in the storm for LGBTQIA+ teens, and those who love and support them. We're welcoming back Amber Lynn Connell, an expert in gender and sexual identity. Her insights will provide you with a much-needed understanding of the unique mental health struggles faced by this demographic. Amber illustrates how factors such as anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation impact these young lives, but how they can be mitigated through the power of support and understanding.

We don't stop there. We also tackle the hot topic of self-advocacy and protective laws for LGBTQIA+ youth, with a particular focus on Pennsylvania. Hear from Amber on the significant impact of a safe expression environment on these teens, as well as the role of gender-affirming care in their lives. Attendees of school board meetings won't want to miss this segment—it's a call-to-action for those committed to ensuring queer and trans students are safe and supported in their schools.

But there's more. Amber takes us through a deep dive into the world of queer and trans teens, navigating relationships, acceptance, and the intimidating world of healthcare. We'll discuss strategies that counselors and therapists can exercise to help these teens extend the safety they experience in therapeutic spaces into their daily lives. Join us on this enlightening journey that brings us closer to understanding and supporting the mental health of our LGBTQIA+ youth. Let's help them not just to survive, but thrive in a compassionate and understanding world.

Resources:
https://welcomeprojectpa.org/saga/therapy/

https://saigecounseling.org/

http://pacounseling.org/aws/PACA/pt/sp/advocacy

http://pacounseling.org/aws/PACA/pt/sp/resources

https://atticyouthcenter.org/

https://pflag.org/

https://pflag.org/findachapter/

https://www.facebook.com/pprainbowroom/

https://payouthcongress.org/

https://www.glsen.org/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the podcast again, amber, and thank you so much for talking to me today because, though in the first episode sort of we talked about gender identity, sexual identity, identifying you know what sort of what the terms are, were, are pronouns, and sort of a general understanding of the LGBTQIA plus spectrum, and I thought that was such an enlightening conversation and wanted to talk to you more about sort of the mental health struggles that the queer population, lgbtqia population, goes through, specifically in their tween and teen years. So I really, really appreciate you coming back on the show and you know sort of your willingness to talk to me about these struggles.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Absolutely. Thanks for having me again.

Speaker 1: 1:02

Yeah, so let me start by asking you specifically in terms of what are some of the issues that we are seeing in our tween and teen population, specifically when it comes to gender and sexual identity.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Yeah. So as far as mental health goes, we do know that LGBT teens and tweens are at a greater risk for developing anxiety and depression. However, we know that there are a lot of things that can mitigate that as well, specifically parental and peer and school support. So if a kiddo comes out as trans and their peer group is not welcoming, or if their school puts barriers in place where they can't join clubs because they have to match their sex assigned at birth or they can't use the bathroom that they feel safest in, that could create anxiety about going to school. That might create some isolation or depression.

Speaker 2: 2:14

But we do know that kids who come out and who feel supported at home and in their families and at their schools, that can have a mitigating, a really really high mitigating effect. The statistics vary but I've seen anywhere up to 70% of LGBTQ teens have experienced suicidal ideation in their lifetime. And then again, the statistics tend to vary and you know this variability is because not everyone feels safe to participate in research and, you know, disclose their identity or their mental health needs. But having just one supportive adult whether that be a coach, a teacher, parent, family member, whoever counselor can mitigate that risk up to 60%. So there's a big, big risk, but with support it's very highly mitigated. And that's what's the most important for these teenagers is being able to recognize if we're seeing this uptick in anxiety or depression and finding supportive adults around them as soon as we notice it.

Speaker 1: 3:31

Yeah, and that's such an important point of we do need adults supporting our teens in all ways. But specifically also, as we talk about this, I'm wondering so much of sort of the media, so much of social media, right, seems like there is a lot of support in these spaces, yet I'm wondering why there is an uptick in sort of suicide ideation or anxiety and depression, and I do understand that there are other mitigating factors as well. But do you sort of see that and you know like there's such a perception of, hey, we are so supportive and yet this is the discrepancy.

Speaker 2: 4:23

Yeah, that's a really good question and for most of the clients that I've worked with, what they tell me is that it's the uncertainty, it's the I've heard my mom and dad talk about, you know, trans rights or LGBT rights, and I think they're pretty progressive or they'll be understanding, but I'm their kid. Is that gonna apply to me?

Speaker 2: 4:50

or I think I go to a really safe school, but you know there's variability in our populations. Is there gonna be a pocket? You know, maybe we have a kiddo who used to be very athletic and as they come out they want to explore other activities. Will my same friends still like me? Will there be a barrier? So I think it's the question of not being able to predict the other person's reaction that can cause the stress for kids, and I also think you know so many of my clients. I mean my clients as young as 11 and 12. I have a few non-binary gender fluid kids who are exploring that I work with and and they've asked me questions about the laws and things that are coming out in other states.

Speaker 2: 5:44

So right now Pennsylvania does not have a law that negatively impacts queer and trans kids in schools, but we also don't have any protection laws. So we're kind of a middle ground state where it's up to the school districts, it's up to the individual families, and we know that in some areas you know, maybe in more rural areas, or even in some of our suburban areas there is a desert of competent professionals. So even if a family is really supportive, they don't always know what to do. So they reach out for help and they might not find it might be hard to find the most competent professionals. So I think that's a big part of it.

Speaker 2: 6:33

And you mentioned social media. That's the double-edged sword, right, because if you curate, you know who you follow and who we engage with on those platforms, you can have a very supportive network. However, if you happen across a troll and maybe somebody is not negatively commenting on your kiddo's stuff, or your kid doesn't have access to it, but their friends might and you know they might see some trolls or things like that, just knowing these things exist weighs really heavily on the, on this population.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Yeah, thank you for kind of unpacking that a little bit for us. So I definitely have questions about Pennsylvania and laws. But before I get to that, the uncertainty, could you talk a little bit more about sort of how Developmentally, where teens are and the uncertainty piece? Because I mean in my understanding tweens, teens are so Developmentally also kind of self-absorbed, you know in ways of oh, everyone is looking at me, like my own kids now there, one is 13 and one is 17, and I know if I just look at them lovingly in my head they're like stop looking at me, mom, why are you looking at me, right, like so I get that and so where does that kind of fall for LGBTQIA? Plus, you know, teens In terms of feeling that kind of out of control, that uncertainty, how do we kind of almost like navigate that with them?

Speaker 2: 8:22

Yeah. So this is really the piece where we're talking about identity in general, the more I Guess I want to say solidified a Teen or tweens identity is. That's another protective barrier. So if your kiddo is really really good at At ballet, let's say, and they feel really safe and confident in their ballet classes with their other class members or things like that, they're gonna be more likely to Express their whole self, including gender or sexual identity, in that space and that'll act as a buffer Because they already have confidence and skills.

Speaker 2: 9:07

Every single teenager I've met does exactly what your kids do. They do the why are you looking at me? Do I have a zit? Does this look right? And if we're thinking a kiddo who is Possibly outside that quote-unquote normal, expected presentation or Behavior, it could be really stressful. They may wind up masking all day and saying you know, I want to wear really plain clothing To school, but really I love wearing bright colors, lots of patterns and makeup, but they might not feel safe everywhere they go to fully express themselves. So I think it's that combination of they're testing those waters and they're ready to start Trying more and more things, but it's the uncertainty of who's safe, whose actions are going to match the words that they've told me. You know, with their words, they've told me that they're a safe person, but are they really?

Speaker 1: 10:11

Yeah, that's such an important point. Yeah, because safety is, I mean, we take it so much for granted in so many different spaces and so sort of having that even oh, wow, like having that trust in your own sort of family members, caregivers, friends, I mean that's such a big, big ask, even you know, for our teens. Sort of shifting gears in terms of laws, I mean, that's not even shifting gears, I would say, just an extension of feeling safe. Right, could you talk a little bit about what the laws in Pennsylvania are, you know, and how do they impact in, however, like sort of ways when it comes to our LGBTQIA population?

Speaker 2: 11:14

I'll do my best, because they're constantly changing.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Yes, what I can say is that right now there are a bunch of us as counselors and there are folks who are involved in nonprofit groups who are working with our state legislators to get some protection legislation happening. There are some of the bills that we've seen in places like Texas or Tennessee that I don't know if they've been introduced yet, but they've been spoken about in our legislature. I don't believe they would have enough votes to pass in Pennsylvania. We're pretty split down the middle, which is often good but also can be tricky in this. You know political climate. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to educate the legislature about what some of these things mean, because unless people you know, like yourself, have this very specific conversation with somebody who is doing this work and who knows there's so much misinformation out there, there are certain groups that use the terms incorrectly, and so, as far as we know, right now in Pennsylvania, gender affirming care is available. Obviously, in our cities there'll be more availability and more competent providers, but through the advent of telehealth, folks can actually get access to affirming providers across the state. The flip side of that being is that we don't have specific protections. So, for example, I believe the city of Pittsburgh and the city council in Philadelphia have banned conversion therapy, and conversion therapy is not ethical. It is not a legitimate form of therapy, but people who practice it claim that they are and then they essentially try to talk folks out of their identity. It can be religious based sometimes, and we've known, at least in the past. I don't know, I don't have any evidence of this currently, but there were some very harsh behavioral tactics that were also used. So we don't yet have a statewide ban on conversion therapy. Our ethics, our boards and all of our professional organizations have come out and said if you practice this, you will lose your licenses, but it's not officially a state law. So we also don't have a state law protecting queer and trans kids, saying specifically, you have to let them use the bathroom where they feel safe or you have to let them play the sport that aligns with their gender identity. So we don't have anti-trans laws.

Speaker 2: 14:21

But we also don't have protection laws yet at the state level. There was a law that was passed, I believe, a few months ago that does protect state workers and people and organizations who contract with our state. So that's a step in the right direction. But what we're really looking for is for more of those protection laws. So what that means is that the safety at school is up to each of the individual school districts, and I encourage folks. I know this conversation can feel disheartening or overwhelming, but I want to leave with an advocacy step that everybody can do, which is go to your school board meetings so, even if you don't have kids in the district, just hear what they're talking about. Is your school board tackling these challenges? Are they talking about it? Are they trying to ban any sort of books? We know that these sort of bans are detrimental to every child, but especially our queer and trans kiddos, who don't have a lot of representation, and if we take books away from them in school, then we're taking away their opportunity to safely and appropriately learn and explore.

Speaker 1: 15:43

Yeah, yeah, thank you for that, because a lot of times we are not aware of what's going on with our legislations and we are so much rooted in the work that we are specifically doing or sort of our life in general, right. So you talked about a couple of things and I want to kind of zone in on those. One is education, right, and I believe that a lot of advocacy is done through educating people, right. What are some of the ways that you are seeing that queer and trans teens are kind of self-advocating? And I know it's hard at that age, but I do see at my own kids school district that there is, there are clubs that are, you know, events that kids are doing and there are allies who are supporting, and I have my own clients who are sort of talking about that. In your practice, in your work, do you, do you see different ways that queer and trans teens, especially, are self-advocating in different spaces, not just in school?

Speaker 2: 17:09

Yeah, I think actually I really love this generation, the Gen Zers. They're they're so open and they really support one another wholeheartedly, which is great.

Speaker 2: 17:22

So you know, I'm typically the one saying, okay, before we talk about coming out at school, let's talk about do we have a safe peer? First, let's talk with one friend and this and that, and then the kiddos and teens I work with are like Amber, I got that like my friends are great, so that's really reassuring. The other ways that I see a lot of kids advocating are so many are more aware, you know again, it's that blessing and curse of social media. They know what's going on in our nation. They know what's going on locally. We see kids going to their school board meetings and, you know, fighting for their rights.

Speaker 2: 18:02

In a local school district to where I live and work, there was a a book ban and then I believe it came up a bathroom ban. In the bathroom case that particular student actually went all the way to. You know they went to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. I don't remember if they went all the way to the Supreme Court, but their decision was affirmed that their, their school district, had to provide safety in the bathroom that the client wanted to use. And that doesn't mean like, oh, you can go to the nurse's bathroom because that can make people feel yeah, that can make people feel singled out.

Speaker 2: 18:45

And in the other schools that were doing some book bands and some other, you know what we would call transport spans and things like that kids are showing up to those meetings and they're saying, hey, this isn't cool, don't do this to us, this isn't right. You don't go to school. Your adults, let us have a voice. And so you know, whether it be through their, their GSA club, their Gay Straight Alliance, so that's where anybody who's an advocate and ally can meet and just talk about these things.

Speaker 2: 19:19

Through starting their own organizations, maybe being involved politically or at their school boards, or just even in their own communities, it can make a really big difference. In the community where I live, there's a couple of us that have a pride flag out, whether it be during Pride Month or in general, and some of the other families that live near us or the kids you know they come and talk and they're like oh yeah, I saw your flag, I can talk to you, I know that you're safe, and then that led them to maybe put something out at their house so that other kids could talk to them. So there's a whole lot of what we call like signaling and signaling for safety that a lot of the kids do and they show. They really just show up for one another.

Speaker 1: 20:05

This group, yeah, that's so true and I see that, you know, with my clients and my own kids. They show up. I mean that blows my mind a lot of times because they're so open and they're so available and on one hand, I do see that. But I also see with my clients sort of like pure rejection, right, like that. That's also, I mean, part of friendship. I get it. Do you in your work see sort of friends rejecting each other based on gender, sexual identity?

Speaker 2: 20:54

it's a mix. I see more of the concern than the actual rejection, and I'm lucky enough. You know a lot of the teenagers that I work with who are out have been out with their friends since, maybe like middle school, and they've crafted groups of friends that feel really safe and comfortable for them. Now my young adults, on the other hand maybe folks who are out of high school, in college or starting their careers that's often when I see a little bit more concern about rejection, but it's not to say it doesn't happen in middle school or high school.

Speaker 2: 21:35

I think what I tend to encourage my clients to think about is that who we are is changing so much throughout these years, and that's going on for our friends too, and so that means that the dynamics of people that we're friends with are also gonna change a whole lot. So I encourage folks to really think that way, and one of the very first things I do with all of my clients is I talk about building a safe and comfortable support network. For a lot of these kids it can be online, it can be either through social media or through games that they play, networking maybe on Discord or something, and so I think the biggest thing we have to talk about when it comes to peers is not just acceptance or rejection, but how do we know that someone is safe and how do we cultivate that group of safety, whether it be our friends at school, friends in a club that we already are in, or branching out and finding something new?

Speaker 1: 22:44

So really sort of supporting them to create a support network versus sort of focusing on what that concern is. Could you kind of talk a little bit more about the concern of rejection in young adults? Well, that's interesting that as teens I would assume the concern would be higher, just developmentally. So what's going on with young adults that there's a little bit of rise there?

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah. So I think with my teenagers again, it's mostly the Gen Z mentality. They've got this extra buffer of I'm gonna be all right, I'm gonna figure it out Not all of them, but most of them. With the young adults that I work with, I've worked with some folks in college who were starting their internships or post college in their first careers and questions about coming out and rejection tend to lead to there's a little bit more on the line.

Speaker 2: 23:47

It's tough to find a job that's a good fit and so once you get in there, folks don't wanna lose that or they don't wanna be treated differently. And then folks also do fear. If they start off by being out and having that conversation in their interviews, will this potentially negatively impact my ability to get the job? It's also a time where friends are sort of scattering. Maybe your best friend just got a job across the country, maybe somebody's taking a year to travel and you're left sort of with a new friend group that you have to find and when we're kids, while that can be very distressing, we're sort of used to it. That's what school's all about. But then as a young adult exploring, dating, exploring, making new friends, working, maybe living on our own and balancing all these things for ourselves. It's just an added layer of stress and I think those folks in the young adult category, I think they feel like they have more to lose and so they're a little bit more deeply assessing the risk versus reward.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Now that makes such a lot of sense. There is more at stake there and I think to your point, there is kind of a loss of that friend group because they are moving in different directions, and then the sort of the anxiety and the stress of making new friends. Even at this age I feel nervous meeting new people, so I get that. One of the things that I kind of was also wondering when it comes specifically to queer and trans folks, teens, is sort of this over sexualization. In what way do you see that in your practice and what does that actually sort of look like for queer and trans teens?

Speaker 2: 25:54

Yeah. So my gut reaction when I hear that question is actually it's the adults in their life that are doing that to them. If you think about it, this quote unquote debate and I say that in quotes because somebody's identity is never up for debate, but this country wide debate that we seem to be in really all stems from what sort of genitals a person has, and that's what these adults are talking to. If we really are talking about, if we really boil it down to it, and that's where it starts it really starts from folks who don't have good education around the topic. Making statements and assuming that everything is not in the cisgender heterosexual box is more sexualized.

Speaker 2: 26:50

In my practice, from what I see, my queer and trans kids and teens are often actually less sexually active than some of their straight counterparts because if we think about it developmentally, they're a little bit I don't necessarily wanna say behind, but there's more steps that they have to go through, and so that makes it for a lot of people harder to feel comfortable and ready to explore that part of themselves. They've got more safety concerns. They've got more will this person feel the same way? So there's more steps that they have to go through, which often leads to less activity. Now, this is not a blanket statement across the board, but I do think that, when it comes to this, though we're sexualizing young children and things like that, it really comes down to that conversation that we're having, not the actual person themselves.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Yeah, yeah, and that again sort of taking having to take more steps to feel safe. So we are going back to sort of that safe, safety, trust, peace over and over again with our teens, especially with our queer and trans teens. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 28:18

No, I was just gonna say it's. That's the thing that comes up the most for me is, you know, whenever I have anybody sitting across from me, but especially my kids and teenagers who are in the LGBT community, it's just this uncertainty of like, what am I going to get back? That tends to be the biggest question that they have, and that does. It just makes for more steps.

Speaker 1: 28:43

Yeah, yeah, and that makes it so hard to even sort of experience, sort of love and affection and Even, to a degree, sort of getting respect, right, yeah, and I can see how that that is so much more work and so much more involvement in making sure that there is sort of that trust.

Speaker 1: 29:08

There is that Back and forth right, like going, talking and communicating and in during teen years that's just so difficult in general. Yeah, so I Wow, this is like a lot of you know, again, like that unpacking to do and I'm glad we are talking about this and I hope our listeners get that from this conversation and so, in kind of Experiencing those extra steps and taking and putting in so much more effort than you would normally, how does that affect their mental health? Right, and there is so much Education or possibilities on social media, media in general, supportive Support systems, if you will, but I'm still thinking there can be an. Is sort of that internalized Homophobia or transphobia? Yeah, teens experience. Talk to me a little bit about what that Does look like, yeah, that's a, that's a big one.

Speaker 2: 30:29

So Internalized homophobia or transphobia essentially looks like a Rejection of self. So that could be for clients who, as I said, you know, maybe they're really into Wearing bright colors and patterns and dresses and makeup, but when they go out you're seeing them in jeans and a plain t-shirt. That might be for safety, that might just be because they don't again know what they're gonna get back. It also stems a lot from a lack of representation. So there are very, there's a lot more now, but there are still very few characters in books, tv shows, movies outside of very specifically Queer written books, tv shows and movies. So there's not very mainstream, there's not a representation that matches the population as a whole. And so you know the the quote-unquote scripts that were taught about on how to interact with friends, how we're supposed to interact with a partner, etc. They're very heteronormative and so if we've got a queer teenager who's exploring, who Doesn't really maybe know yet what their identity is, maybe it's not fully solidified, and they want to try this out with a potential new partner and say, you know, I just want to date you because I like you as a person, they don't really have a frame of reference sometimes, and so that can be tricky and that can lead to then a denial of the self. It can also look a lot like shame. It can look a lot like people pleasing and it can look a lot like I had clients tell me things like oh, once I go to college I'll be free to explore that, or once I move out of my parents house, and then they wonder why they're struggling with anxiety and depression. Potentially and it's because you know you're hiding a part of yourself and intervention that I use when I teach, when I do presentations or I teach at schools or businesses.

Speaker 2: 32:47

You know About being affirming is, you know on? Take a sheet of paper and on one sheet of paper, write down Everything about yourself that's important to you. So if I use myself, for example, the top few would be my friends, my family, my husband, my dog, I like weightlifting, I like sports, I like reading. Okay, so now you flip that page over and you have to write an Introduction about yourself without using any of those things. So I would be left with Hi, I'm Amber. I don't think I mentioned work over there, so I work as a counselor and I'm doing this podcast this morning. It really is tough, and so that constant editing and making sure that, as an individual, they're not quote too much for someone else is what that tends to look like.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Yeah. That's a lot of pressure that is a lot of pressure and that is so much work in itself to just exist, and so I'm also wondering, in that sort of line of Of kind of rejecting yourself, being also sort of concerned and constantly stressed about being rejected by others, right, what are some of the healthcare barriers that you know teens experience, specifically LGBTQIA?

Speaker 2: 34:19

Yeah, so first and foremost, is the majority of healthcare providers. Even in our own field, we are not taught enough about these nuances and these specifics of working with queer and trans folks, especially with kids. There are way fewer competent providers in the specialties that our teens need, and so, number one, there's very long wait lists frequently to get in, whether it be for therapy, for medication. If a family wants to pursue potentially puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones for their older teenagers, it can be. It can take a long time, and so it's like we talked about last time. You know if, instead of calling you by your name, I woke up this morning and I said, hey, susan, how you doing? Imagine walking into your doctor's office and your doctor, who's supposed to know you know, be somebody who you can talk about anything with, and you know their staff are calling you the wrong name. Other patients are giving you a funny look and then they can't answer your questions. That's really the biggest barrier.

Speaker 2: 35:43

We do have lots of great medical organizations in our area that are growing in terms of LGBT focused, family care, primary care specialties, etc. But what I would tell families is make sure that your vetting programs or your vetting providers try to talk to some other folks who've been through their process. It's not just about the doctor themselves and if they can provide the medicine that your client need or that your kiddo needs, and not literally just medicine but the art of medicine. It's also about their staff and their office and how easy is it to get to for you. So there's so many things I mean for all of us. Right now they get in the way of good healthcare, but this population again, it's those extra steps that folks have to go through.

Speaker 1: 36:35

Yeah, and I have had clients say to me, especially my teen clients, who are non-binary and trans, and that they're doctors, they're psychiatrists even. Sometimes, you know, not usually, hopefully, not usually they're families, but the healthcare system is so sort of difficult to navigate because a lot of times they get their pronouns wrong and they don't sort of ask, you know, although it's perhaps on the sheet that they're carrying and they don't look at it. And it's so disheartening and so difficult for me to understand that. Those are some of the basic, basic things we are asking right From getting someone's name right.

Speaker 1: 37:23

should be like below basic Right, right, yeah, and so I've heard that over and over again and so I'm wondering, in terms of sort of the healthcare system, what are some and even you know for counselors, what are some of the basic competencies that we can expect and you know do for the clients.

Speaker 2: 37:49

So the number one thing you know what you're speaking to is the fact that, especially providers who take insurance, the client's name in the chart has to match exactly their legal name, which has to exactly match their name on their insurance card. So if someone hasn't gone through a name change process yet which don't even get me started on barriers and how tough that can be but if they haven't gone through that process yet and your legal name is your dead name, you're going to walk in and that's what the provider is going to see on their screen or on their sheet, because that's what the systems the medical EHR systems tend to default to. Luckily, as therapists, we have a few different options. In my private practice, the platform that I use is called Sessions Health and it collects data of legal name and sex assigned at birth. However, whenever my client logs in, they see their preferred name and they can update it at any time.

Speaker 2: 38:57

At the practice where I'm a supervisor, they use therapy notes, which does the same thing. Now I do like to make folks aware that if there is a bill or anything submitted to insurance, they're going to see their legal name, and I like to be very frank with my clients and talk about what that experience could be like very early on in our first session. So, leaving spaces for you know, call it legal name and call it chosen name or preferred name. Chosen's better than preferred, but preferred is still OK. Leave spaces on your forms for pronouns. I actually have a colleague had made their basically pronoun business cards and I have a few of them in my office. So if you know folks aren't certain or if they're just uncomfortable talking about it, they could hand me one or they could hand a different provider one and it says you know my pronouns, are they them, or my pronouns are she, her, and we even have on the back side of the card some of the more neo pronouns that not as many people use and they could circle that and hand that to a provider. So, just being receptive, I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 2: 40:07

And then the other really important thing is take the feedback. If somebody says, hey, you messed up my name or you messed up my pronouns, don't make it about yourself, don't over apologize, you know. Simply say thank you so much for telling me. I'm going to make a note of that and I'll do better next time. People just want to feel validated and if we make it about ourselves they're not going to be validated. And then the other thing I can tell folks is get lots of supervision, get lots of trainings. You know, I know this is all post grad school stuff. It's not a core to our education. It should be. We're working on it, but it's out there and it's available and really, just, you know, treat all your clients that way. I ask every single one of my clients what are your pronouns, what name do you want me to call you? And again, like we said, that's just the basic respect levels.

Speaker 2: 41:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and so on that note, sort of what is our role in our clients life especially you know not life so much, but you know sort of what is our role in terms of helping our yeah, we are in trans teen clients especially so I'm a licensed professional counselor, so my ethics are guidelines are from the ACA, the American Counseling Association, I'm pretty sure Across the practice boards they're very similar, but the ACA has in our ethics that we have an obligation to also Advocate for our clients as well as provide competent care.

Speaker 2: 41:53

There's also specific competencies that I believe are gonna be updated soon For working with queer and trans folks, and it does outline what our expectations are, and so again I can speak to the bare basics. It's things like making your practice Actually affirmative, not just saying it, thinking about your documentation and your paperwork, thinking about how you market and you know what theories that you use. We do know that a majority of our evidence-based practices have not been normed and standardized on Queer folks, on black and brown folks, on anybody really who's not white and straight. So you know, really ask yourself is this assessment tool, is this Theory that I'm, this lens I'm using with?

Speaker 1: 42:45

this client.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Does this really fit this person's lived experience? And then, when you learn of things in your community or from your clients that their school is not affirming enough, I tell my kids this might be a little much, but I tell them you know, if you do your part and You're not getting what you need from them, I will get on that phone and I will holler at a counselor.

Speaker 1: 43:06

I will holler at a teacher.

Speaker 2: 43:08

I'll stand up for you, if I know. You know you're showing up and you're doing your part too right. So, you know, have your clients back, not just in session, and, Most of all, do not encourage folks to simply think differently about situations that they're in. You know, for some of our clients we're talking life and death and so, you know, really affirming where they're at, really validating where they're at and coming up with strategies to Extend that safety that they have in your office out into their community. For some folks that might look like going to pride, it might look like, like, I said, our office, we have the updated pride flag, excuse me, we have the pronoun cards.

Speaker 2: 44:00

Sign up for some magazines, follow some social media. Folks that are queer and trans. You know some advocates, folks you wouldn't normally expose yourself to Read a book that has, you know, a queer main character, just educating ourselves and remember that it is, you know, as counselors and other therapists professionals, we do have an ethical obligation to Be competent, get support when we need it and do these steps, you know, for our clients and sometimes even with them If it's clinically appropriate.

Speaker 1: 44:34

Yeah, thank you so much for that and thank you so much for talking to me. It has really truly been an amazing conversation and we will put some of the books recommended Maybe social media advocates, you know in the show notes so folks can have access to that. But again, thank you so much for talking to me.

Speaker 2: 45:02

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful.