How Michelle Teunis enables people to reimagine work design through her expertise in applied neuroscience and behaviour

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Transcript

Why Relationships at Work Matter

Michelle Teunis 0:00

But in a workplace, even though we don't have saber-toothed tigers chasing us. Some of our colleagues and leaders can probably feel a little bit the same. And we do feel safer, you know, within that tribe. Um, especially in the hypersocial context of work. Yet the relational aspects of work design are, you know, they're quite often overlooked, I found. And and that aspect of smart work design recognises that people need connection and support at work. And it needs to be curated and not let run wild because we have, you know, in your outgroup bias, what are the social norms that are driving it look like, all of those kinds of things. But uh really high-level examples and aspects of relational work include being part of a team, having support from your peers and leader. And most importantly, it's not just about looking outwards, it's about looking in by way of knowing, you know, a bit of a self-awareness and empathy piece by way of knowing how your work impacts others.

Host Welcome and Michelle’s Background

Voice over 0:55

Welcome to the Reimagined Workforce Podcast, brought to you by the director of Workforce Transformations Australia, Caphew. In each episode, we explore the stories, strategies, and successes of curious, creative, and courageous people who are daring to address workforce challenges differently. Together, we'll discover how we can harness human potential and reimagine the workforce for a brighter, more fulfilling future for everyone. And if you would like to learn more from Kath about how we can make this happen, be sure to get a copy of her latest book, The Number One Amazon Bestseller, Learn, Solve, Thrive. Making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world. Now for the episode.

Kath Hume 1:38

Michelle Tunis is a global change practitioner, educator, and specialist in applied organizational neuroscience and behavior. With over 25 years' experience, Michelle has led complex digital, data, and cultural transformations across industries like banking, media, airlines, and education. She's worked at the intersection of technology and humanity, helping organizations redesign how they lead, learn, and adapt. Michelle brings a powerful lens to change, one that's grounded in behavioral science, human-centered design, and a deep commitment to creating psychologically safe and high-performing workplaces. I've been connected with Michelle for some time now and know with confidence that her posts are filled with valuable and practical insights that just bring clarity and actionable takeaways. And I can't wait to hear the brilliance she shares with us. Michelle Tunis, welcome to the Reimagined Workforce podcast.

Michelle Teunis 2:35

Thanks so much, Kath, for that amazing introduction. I might have to borrow that for my bio. And it's an absolute pleasure to be chatting with you today.

Kath Hume 2:46

It is so exciting. And one of the posts that really stood out for me and really sort of connected with my heart was last year when Daniel Carneman passed away. And you just wrote the most appropriate and well thought through response to that. And it really connected with me about how critical he has been to this space. And I think you're leading the charge as well in carrying on that legacy.

Kahneman’s Legacy and Metacognition

Michelle Teunis 3:11

Oh, thanks so much. And what amazing, just on that note, if you don't mind, what amazing work that he did as well. You know, this is just a snippet of the work that he did, but just you know, our understanding and how often we use and talk about system one and system two thinking and how that delves straight back to how our energy conservationist brain works with everything from our gut feel to understanding that our brain's a prediction machine, and that sometimes those predictions are based on past experiences. So it really enables us to have that really strong metacognition and think about our thinking a lot more. And I think that his work has really driven that into what we do today and what we understand today.

What Michelle Does and Why It Matters

Kath Hume 3:54

So helpful to just have that awareness of what our brain is doing for us and sometimes against us, um, so as we can work with it. So, on that, would you mind providing us with a brief overview of what it is you do and why that makes you happy?

Enablement Over Box‑Ticking

Michelle Teunis 4:10

Okay, I love the second part of that question. So I'm an organizational change and transformation leader, and I tend to work on large and complex transformations across all types of industries and styles, as well as set up and lead change teams. But I've been quite busy with my work in applied neuroscience of late, though. So I'm spending far less time on the tools and more time in creating and delivering training on integrating the brain, behavior, and psychosocial factors into our work. So, to that point, I'm also a specialist and educator in applied neuroscience. Sounds like a bit of a mouthful, but I focus on change, leadership, learning, and performance. And I'm also the co-author of the Brain Friendly Change course in collaboration with the Agile Change Leadership Institute. That course has just turned one. It all keeps me super busy and out of too much trouble. That's for sure. But look, both of these things are complementary and they make me really, really happy because they're both driven from purpose and sort of what's deep underneath my iceberg in a way that aligns to both my professional and personal life. That, and I'm anyone who knows me knows that I'm an absolute passionate, geeky, lifelong learner. And um, that ties in well because neuroscience, in and of itself, moves so fast, as does change, as does work. So I need to be constantly on that mastery journey versus saying that I'm an expert that's arrived at my final expert destination, because we never really do. Never, yeah. So tell me then, what is it that drives you to make a difference? In relation to organizational change, I've always been passionate about truly enabling, and I'll emphasize the word enabling people to achieve their goals. So that goes way back to my school days where I'd help, you know, teachers and fellow students learn and implement things. And I even remember as a little girl that I'd daydream about how I could help people implement changes to help them live a happier life. Sounds like a bit of a mini oprah, but it's not that, I promise. Um, I'd like to emphasize the word enablement here again as well, which means designing for coaching and helping deliver things in a way that helps goals become realized, where people also have better um experiences and uplift their capability along the way, versus simply ticking a series of boxes to feel that you know I've done something. That's obviously part of it too, but to me, successful change is a lot more than that. So my drive around change is to see things stick, scale, and teach people how to fish rather than just fish for them, because that's really what's going to help with sustainability and growth as well. On the other side of the coin in relation to applied neuroscience and behavioural science, look, in my 25 years in change in leadership, I think I reached a bit of an impasse where I thought the term human-centric, Kath, was becoming a bit cliche, as it wasn't really always based on how humans tick. And I felt that the skill and know-how around this was lacking from the profession. Um, and I also feel that it held or holds us back from creating safer change experiences. So the aha or drive came when I was pregnant with my now four-year-old daughter. I wanted to not only be a better change practitioner, but also the best parent I could be, as well as support her education. So, to cut a long story short, I started my journey to study multiple facets of applied neuroscience and behavioural science and actually landed in a masters of educational neuroscience, which is perfect as it goes deep into how the brain learns, changes, and is transferable to educators, leaders, change makers, and most importantly, transferable to my personal um life. So I can hand on heart say that it's bettered not only how I practice change, but has helped me in all the things that I wanted for. So being a more conscious parent and a more self-regulated and aware adult. So this is probably why my drive is so strong to share my knowledge with the world on all things change and um neuroscience.

Kath Hume 8:06

I love that it's been driven like since you were very young and that that stayed with you. I think that whole purpose that you know by being able to identify and then hone your skills and your knowledge and your expertise to enable you to deliver on that purpose is beautiful. I love that you've got that enablement as your keyword or your driving force that's saying that you don't want to service people and then have them reliant on you by the sound of it. You you want to be able to say, I'm here to help you get that provide that scaffolding, but then let them fly on their own. And I do really align with that way of thinking.

Michelle Teunis 8:46

Yeah, and it's really important from a brain-based perspective as well, because I think if you help people connect the dots and add to or amend their own mental models, that's where things are going to be more powerful because they're going to own it and have the aha moments themselves. People are more likely to take that on board versus what you've just told them, for example. So yeah, it really does come back to brain science as well.

Kath Hume 9:12

And linking it to the goals that matter to them too, I I really like you talking about that, that it's going to be help them realize the things that that are important. Um, and that's intrinsically motivating and satisfying then too when you actually achieve that. So, can you tell me then? I ask every guest, what does your reimagined workforce look like?

Reimagined Workforce: From Control to Coherence

Smart Work Design: Stimulus, Agency, Relations, Demands

Psychosocial Safety Beyond Token Gestures

Michelle Teunis 9:34

Oh wow. Okay, that is a really good question. And it's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately, actually. So, and this is just uh I'm talking in draft from what I've been thinking about lately. So uh please forgive me if I I go a little bit too deep or a little bit too shallow, let's say how it lands. But a reimagined workforce in my mind takes a fundamental shift in mindsets and the system because the system is where everything trickles down from. So we can work to change behaviors and processes, though, if the system is in conflict, it will always create friction and hold both organizations and people back. So I think, and I've mentioned this before, but the goal is to create conditions that enable people to be their most creative, resilient, and productive selves. And that needs coherence, not conflict. And conflicting systems create a problem up front, and that problem is cognitive dissonance or resistance from the outset, right? Or responses, avoidance responses. Now, I'm not professing here that what's needed is perfection. I'm talking about coherence and focusing on that coherence over conflict. And again, that goes back to neuroscience and behavioural science as well from a friction versus fuel perspective. So for me, it's about moving from a system of control littered with measures that hope for A but measure B, and have smoke and mirrors where things might look good on a shareholder statement, but are experienced in a completely different way by those doing the work, and also uh tend to need to be done over after the shareholder reports have gone out. Two, a system that focuses on both thriving people and thriving bottom lines, empowerment, smart and safe work design, emotional, social, social, relational, and even conflict intelligence just as much as technical intelligence. For me, it would be an ecosystem where people are not just numbers in a machine, but are absolutely empowered to contribute to their unique human potential. To do this, though, Kath, we need to understand how we humans fundamentally tick and to design for better work, change, and organizational experiences. And I think that I've said a lot there, but I think that some of the key foundational or underpinning components in my reimagined workplace, because you need those underpinning components, going back to that word enablement to enable uh the reimagined workplace, my absolute foundation would be smart work design with a focus on psychosocial or psychosocially safer work. So, with that, smart work design, it's not just about cutting the numbers, the tasks, reviewing capacity, and having a cool org chart either. Smart work design, which is actually, I won't take the credit for this, it's coined by um, I think it's Professor Sharon Parker at the Center for Transformative Work Design at Curtin Uni. Um, it involves designing work in a far more human-centric way that goes beyond what and into the how, when, and also how to get the best outcomes out of humans to boost well-being and performance. So if I could just take you through it really quickly, just from a head. So, smart work design, it's about designing work that considers stimulating work. So, work that involves having varied interesting and meaningful tasks in a job, mastering at work, and we spoke about this before that we're all on a mastery journey. It comes from knowing what your role is, which is really important, Kath, as lack of raw clarity is a key psychosocial facet, as you'd know. And understanding how your work fits into the bigger picture. That's important from a brain-based point of view as well, because our brain does calculate an ROI on whether we, you know, engage with something or not, and relevance and meaning are two things that are really important in that. Agency. So agency in a job means having a sense of autonomy and control over when and how you do your tasks, as well as being able to make decisions about your job. And it's supported when you're asked for input and decisions and consulted on change. So agency, you know, or autonomy is really big in relation to intrinsic motivation, as you mentioned before, because it relates directly to self-determination theory, but we're also, you know, more likely to be more involved in and own what we have a sense in creating. Hello, the IKEA effect from a behavioural science point of view, you know, but also it we really like that sense of control. It makes us feel more safe as well. And and respect, I think, is a really big thing here as well with agency. If you want alignment in any way, shape, or form, it really does start with respect. On that, I think that goes nicely into the relational part of smart work design or the R. Now, I think that that's a really important one. As we have both a social connector and a social survivalist brain, Cass. So we need to connect just as much as we need to breathe air. But in a workplace, even though we don't have saber-toothed tigers chasing us. Some of our colleagues and leaders can probably feel a little bit the same. And we do feel safer, you know, within that tribe, um, especially in the hypersocial context of work. Yet the relational aspects of work design are, you know, they're quite often overlooked, I found. And that aspect of smart work design recognizes that people need connection and support at work, and it needs to be curated and not let run wild because we have, you know, in your out group bias, what are the social norms that are driving it look like, all of those kinds of things. But uh really high-level examples and aspects of relational work include being part of a team, having support from your peers and leader. And most importantly, it's not just about looking outwards, it's about looking in by way of knowing uh, you know, a bit of a self-awareness and empathy peaks by way of knowing how your work impacts others, um, which I think is really important. And the last one, I am there, tolerable. Um, demands at work means things that you're expected to do are not overwhelming. So that can mean, for example, having, you know, your reasonable work hours, not being tightly monitored, um, you know, which intrusive monitoring is a huge psychosocial risk, and having reasonable and consistent expectations for performance. So now all of those align to strengthen laws around psychosocial risk in Australia as well, and cater for mitigation of a lot of the top hazards, and they create that foundation of um safer work from the get-go. Obviously, psychosocial safety or asking the question, what here might cause harm, not just do I feel safe to speak up is something that's really important. We know it's not just about fruit bowl, pizzas, or the quarterly pulse survey. It's not about tokenism, it's um, you know, about um prevention and elimination. But I think that there's also two other robust things that we need to consider to enable a reimagined, that you know, fantastic reimagined work um force that I mentioned. Having robust business architecture, or just going back to your point before around scaffolding. So having necessary organizational scaffolding for a reimagined workforce is about designing the systems and processes that are adaptable and resilient to change, you know, flex organizational structures, agile methodologies, clear and adaptable chains of command really enables the organization and the workforce to shift to new challenges. And then, you know how I said at the start about a lot of people, you know, hope for A, but measure B. It's around, I think the final pillar for the sake of this conversation anyway, we could go on for days about this, is implementing the right measures that drive the right behaviours. And I think that with a reimagined workforce, success isn't just, you know, around being measured by hours worked or output, it's around measuring the outcomes that truly matter, including but not limited to employee well-being, innovation, and psychosocial safety.

Architecture and Measures That Drive Behavior

Kath Hume 17:32

There is so much in that. I can't wait to go back and review the transcript on all of that because I'm there's just so much in it. But I think the few things that stood out to me was mainly that it's mutually beneficial. So we're looking at how do we ensure that everyone benefits by working together on this. I loved that you talked about it being an ecosystem. I love too what you talked about, talking inward and outward, like that self-awareness and back to what we said about Carnaman and having that awareness of what's actually happening, what our brain is doing to influence how we feel, and and therefore we can take a little bit more control about how we respond. I also liked what you talked about in terms of manufacturing those moments that matter, not letting those relationships fall to chance. Really important, especially in hybrid working environments that we have at the moment. And just that proximity doesn't necessarily mean that a relationship forms. You know, I've I've got some fabulous relationships that I've formed across the globe with people I have never met and possibly will never meet. But you do have to be intentional about it. And the the fact that you talked about the systems and processes that's around this that enable that ecosystem to thrive, but also applying the intention behind it and saying, What's the outcome that we need to do? We have to design for that and design for all of these goals that we want to achieve.

Michelle Teunis 18:59

Yeah, and I love a few things that you said there. 100% we need to be intentional. It's intentional by design, not by default, right? So it really does have to be um intentionally designed. But when you spoke about what's the greater good for both, or looking at both sides, that really tends itself to something called a benefits mindset, which is really, really important. And that is how can we have both a growth and the stress-enhancing mindset for the greater good of the whole, not just ourselves? And that takes a more collaborative, relational, empathetic view, if you could say as well.

Adaptive Capability in the Age of AI

Kath Hume 19:36

Yeah, which is really important. I've heard you talk about on this is possibly more online than in what you've said, but you talk about adaptive capability. What does that look like for you in a workforce that's truly reimagined?

Michelle Teunis 19:47

Yeah, look, I think that it is it's an absolute foundation as well. So I'm glad that you asked that because I can continue to talk about sort of what my working draft of a reimagined workforce looks like. And it is a very big passion of mine. So I think the answer to that, CAC, is twofold. So I feel that with the rise of AI workplaces, we'll be looking for people who can transfer skills and flex in not only project change but transformational change, ODD, LD, psychosocial risk, even smart work design. All slightly different, yet related things. And I think that those who continually learn and can flex are not only building up their own or our own cognitive reserves, which keeps our brains sharp and young as a side note, but we're adding to value and will continue to be a hot commodity at work. And again, with the rise of AI, you know, and the cognitive debt that we get by relying on technology, I think that that's really important for us individually, but enabling future-proofing, you know, um, our jobs. But adaptive capability at work is um from an organizational perspective on the other side of the coin, is again designing at a system and work level that enables the ability for people, roles, and products to flex and scale. And outdated command and control structures do not allow for that. Systems that will grow adaptive capability are ones that anticipate and interpret change, um, you know, innovate and experiment, reconfigure talent rather than just slashing and burning all the time and uh bring people back in and fall foster that real culture of learning. But again, this all of course has to be underpinned by I will say neuropsychological safety with that psychosocial safety um edge around what here might cause harm.

Kath Hume 21:40

I do like the benefits idea. So that we're looking to how can we help people to thrive, achieve their potential rather than risk mitigation approach. Yes, yes. Uh have a question. You talked about the cognitive debt of AI. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Cognitive Debt vs Cognitive Reserves

Michelle Teunis 21:56

Yeah, no worries. So when we so when I'm talking about, I'll relate it to what we've just spoken about, adaptive capability. So when we are learning new things andor transferring what we know to different but related subjects. So, like for example, if we work in change, it's not just and not having a go at pro say our ad car, but it's not just about following an ad car tick box. It's, you know, if you're working on an um operating model redesign, it's good to know about smart work design and, you know, just transferring what we know to build upon our learning and to be more robust individuals and adaptable and flexible individuals across workplace transformation or any kind of change, right? When we do that and when we learn and when we interleave our knowledge, we're building up our cognitive reserves. We're strengthening our neural pathways, we're scaffolding our understanding so that we learn things faster and quicker. So that enables us, we're using our brain, we're strengthening our brain, and it enables us to be more adaptable. So we're building up our cognitive reserves. It also adds in layers like fertilizer for the brain, brain-derived neurootropic factor, which helps keep us young and sharp, right? So cognitive reserves are great. Not dissing AI, but I think that it's important for it to be a partner rather than a crutch. So a partner to add to what you already know or to give you new ideas based on what you already know, rather than outsourcing your learning too much to AI, because what that does, it creates cognitive debt, doesn't strengthen any of our neural pathways. It doesn't add, it is um, it's a false sense of learning because it's literally one you're looking at it and then it's going out the other way because you're not connecting any of the dots in your brain to hold on to that information. We have an attentional octopus in the front of our head, right? Some days we've got one tentacle, some days we've got ten. And it also depends, you know, uh, when we think of neurodiversity across the spectrum, different people have, you know, different levels of working memory. But if you are simply outsourcing your learning to AI, your attentional octopus is not going to hold on to that information. So it's not going to actually go into your long-term memory. So you're not going to be able to use it to flex. So that's what I mean by it's called cognitive debt. And when we're learning and when we're considering upping our adaptive capability, whether that be from an individual level or an organizational level, how are we actually strengthening and adding to those neural pathways and networks to enable us to flex versus what are we letting slip off the mental scratch pad that is, you know, again, adding to our debt rather than our um our reserves to be able to flex and be actually agile either personally or organizationally.

Kath Hume 24:43

Yeah, it's so important for all of us to have an understanding of of all of this. And I love that you'll you've actually got that program that's in place to be able to share your knowledge. And I think too about that understanding of if you're not processing, then you're not probably not learning. And so, what are the little tips and tricks that you could apply to be able to ensure that you're applying some cognition in a way that will not create burnout and manage the cognitive load? So as you're optimizing your learning, optimizing your performance, getting that balance right, it's so important.

Attentional Intelligence: Make Learning Stick

Michelle Teunis 25:24

Just some really high-level key points is around, you know how I spoke about the intelligences before. So the emotional intelligence, social intelligence. One of the key ones, I think, for leaders, change makers, learning and development consultants is something called attentional intelligence. And that's something that's really important in a cognitively overloaded workplace and world. And what that is, is understanding what our working memory or short-term memory is, what our long-term memory is, and how to make information stick. So the first thing is obviously get attention. And getting attention is understanding that our brain calculates an ROI on what it might pay attention to or not, right? So, how relevant is this to me personally? How much effort do I need to put into it? Or the effort versus support. So being really clear about how you're going to support people. And then what is the benefit we're going to get at the end? So if someone feels like it's not relevant to them at all or they're not going to get supported or have no benefit at the end, they're not necessarily going to pay the attention. The second thing is to understand that our working memory, things will slip off our, that's what I say, mental scratch pad, if they're not chunked, for example. So if you can chunk things in, say, no more than sort of four chunks of information, you can have subchunks as well. But having things chunked with space repetition rather than a long, you know, drawn-out session is something that's really important as well, because it helps people grasp that information from their short-term memory. But it's not just about chalk and talk or doing a training video or doing one town hall. It's about then taking that chunked information and helping people move that into their long-term memory. Because that's where people are creating those neural pathways, and that's where things are going to start sticking, and that's where you're creating your cognitive reserves. And to do that, you need people to have hands-on practice, right, with what it is that they're learning. So to be able to, you know, connect all the dots, make meaning themselves. So how can they teach other people in their own words so that they're making their own meaning and ingraining their learning even further by teaching? What I said before about adaptive capability and transferring your knowledge to different areas and be able to interleave, that again further deepens your knowledge. And I think that things that inhibit things from moving to long-term memory is stress, cognitive overload, allostatic load, psychosocial risks. So just at a high level, that's sort of something that I'm really passionate about talking about, about having that attentional intelligence.

Distraction Management and Deep Work

Kath Hume 28:00

And if you go back to that design, I know we were talking about design as a as in the organization's designing work, but I think as individuals, we've got that opportunity to craft our work as well and that awareness of what's taking our attention away, and what could we do to limit that in so as it enables us to focus our attention. It does drive me a little bit crazy when I read those reports of our attention spans are declining. And I think I wrote an article once about it's actually not our attentions that are declining, but our distractions are increasing. So one's within our control, one's not so much. So if we back to the whole enablement point, if we want to empower people and let them feel like they've got things within their own circles of control, yeah, what's distracting you and is it serving you? And I think at an organizational level, the rewarding fast response rates on Teams chats or Slack channels or emails and just that expectation. I just think, are we killing productivity? Are we killing future growth and future potential? Because we're stealing from tomorrow to do what we think is productive today.

Two Brain Networks: Focus and Drift

Michelle Teunis 29:15

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. And when you spoke about job crafting and you know, people having autonomy over how they do things, one of the key things I learned in my neuroscience studies up front was to have a distraction management plan and put a distraction management plan in place where I was also blocking out time for deep work, right? I think I completely agree with you. It's not necessarily um, you know, to do with our attention declining. It's that our world is becoming more cognitively overloaded and people are wanting things done fast. But what that's actually doing on the reverse side is creating, you know, I spoke about the smoke and mirrors, it's about creating a culture of shallow work. Yeah. Um And that shallow work is somewhat pushed upon us by how the work's designed and what the expectations around attention are. So again, just looping back to that's why I think having that attentional intelligence, how a short long-term memory works, you know, the importance of being in our brain has two gears. I'm slightly going on a tangent, but it all makes sense. Our brain has a task-positive network and a default mode network. A task-posit is when we're focused on a task, when we're intently focused on a task. A default mode network is when we're out at lunch, having a walk, going to get our lunch, mind wandering, catching the train on the way home. We need to be able to balance two of those networks and we can't be in both of them at once. If we don't balance those two networks, we're not able to be our most creative selves. We can't get rid of the information residue from a training session we might have been in that morning. We don't have the freedom of our brain to be able to connect the dots. So I think that, and this comes back to attentional intelligence in knowing how we actually fundamentally tick as human beings and then knowing how to design for work, right? To coming back to enabling that, which is all super, super important.

Kath Hume 31:12

So you've probably covered it, but from your experience and understanding of the brain, what do you see as the main barriers that get in the way of real workforce transformation?

COM-B and the Brain’s Organizing Principles

Michelle Teunis 31:23

Sure. So I think the number one is people designing for workforce transformation via ticking boxes versus understanding how we truly tick. And this tends to then call out normal physiological responses to change, because it's not just about the brain, it's about our nervous system as a whole, as resistance rather than understanding what might cause avoidant responses to change. And as you said, intentionally designing for that in mind, rather than pointing at the people and their behaviours and how the work's designed as well, and also not looking at where friction might be caused when it comes to people's core needs. So I always like to use something called the COM B model. It's a behavioral science model, for example, when designing for change from the outset and thinking so COM B, for example, it stands for capability. How are we making people feel capable to be able to do the new thing? Opportunity, so do they have the opportunity to actually change, or are there roadblocks in the way? Um, and M is motivation. And it's not just about whether people think they're going to get a reward, but it's about the social norms from the leaders and are they actually motivating people to change or hindering them? So COM B, COM, the B is behaviour. So looking at are we enabling the capability, the opportunity, and the motivation to enable the behaviors? And again, that's more of a behavioral science perspective, but it does come back to the brain as well because it's all interlinked. Yeah, and I think that I don't see enough people considering that up front because they're fundamental needs for human beings. Another thing is I think that that hinders is not considering the brain's four key organizing principles when designing for transformations or change as well. And you know, I won't have enough time to go into each and every one of them in depth in this conversation. But if you could take away one thing is to understand that our brain, number one, wants to minimize threat and maximize reward. Number two, it's an energy conservationist, so it likes things to be really, really simple. And we're able to design to make things simpler, to not add to the perceived, you know, attention issue with this world. Um, number three, it's a social connector and a social survivalist, and we need to curate the social connection, not just expect it to exist because we're also a social survivalist and you know, we like to live within tribes and follow social norms because it makes us feel safe. But also that our brain's a prediction machine and that going back to the system one and system two thinking that we discussed at the start, sometimes system one thinking is based on a prediction of something that's happened in the past and what may have happened in the past, even if that's just organizational memories and they haven't experienced it themselves, could actually determine how they behave towards the change now if we don't understand how you know the brain's prediction machine works. So, yeah, I think it's about just understanding those four key organizing principles and doing a bit of a fuel versus friction sort of thing up front using a behavioral model, just so that you can know what your baseline is and then design and flex from there throughout the transformation.

Kath Hume 34:34

And that really popular book, Atomic Habits, yeah, that's so simple. Um, talking through the what are the things that are helping and hindering, and being able to manage those is really kind of just reinforcing what we probably all already know from experience in life, but like stacking habits, I think he calls it so you know the things that you're already doing every day. What can you attach to that and do those things as well? Yeah, just just having an understanding of all the these things that influence the cognitive load, so as we can manage that.

Michelle Teunis 35:12

A hundred, a hundred percent. Seeing as you're talking about James Clear, uh, I went and saw him in person in City a few years ago. Um, it was fantastic. And I think that, and it's coming back to everything that you said, Kath, it's around intentional environmental design is the underpinning of when you're talking about habit change, right? Um, because we only have finite willpower, right? Willpower is not extensive. So just like we need to design for our environments to enable goal-directed behavior for personal habit change, we need to intentionally design the systems, structures, but also change and transformation to consider how we fundamentally tick to water that beautiful garden to enable change in the best way possible rather than relying on people's willpower in a cognitively overloaded environment.

Kath Hume 36:04

Yeah. So, what would you say for leaders who are leading change or planning a workforce strategy? What's a mindset shift that they can implement so they can really take action on this?

Habit Design and Environmental Cues

Michelle Teunis 36:16

Yeah, okay. Great question. I think I could probably give you one mindset shift and one action. The first thing that comes to mind about the mindset shift, again, it's looking internally, it's would be to look at your own avoidance responses to change. What comes up for you when it comes to change and transformation personally, because I think that really helps empathize and better design for others, normal physiological responses to change. When we're leading change or workforce transformation, we get into threat states as well. We're not immune to that. And our emotions are contagious and can then have a flow and effect. So I think when it comes to navigating workforce transformation or change, the mindset shift is to start with self-navigation. Um, and I think the one action is, and it comes back to that thing where I mentioned that the brain's a prediction machine, is to create a sense of place for people or really remember to create a sense of place for people. Because our brain likes to connect connect the dots, and it will fill gaps with predictions based off those past experiences or even organizational memories, which can be negative if they're not sure where they are in the process or the change or where they're going or how they'll be involved. So really focus on creating that sense of place, and that is intentionally you know, considering our prediction machine brain in mind as well.

Kath Hume 37:39

And could you share with us a story of where you've made a positive difference that matters?

A Mindset Shift for Leaders

Michelle Teunis 37:44

Yeah, sure. Um, there's plenty of stories, but one I think is in relation to the organizational change. So uh was working for a very large global organization on you know, something not so sexy, remediations has to be done for complex transformations still in the change space. And um, the particular area of this organization, great, you know, amazing organization, kicks goals, but it was more of a technical area, very hierarchical, command and control. There hadn't been a lot of autonomy, and there was a program that was sort of 18 months behind because people couldn't get on the same page. Um, and a lot of that was because there was a lot of assumptions made versus chatting to those who were on the ground and sort of re-bringing back together what the scope might look like. This particular area, there were different sponsors, there were different measures for each of the different areas, which made it even more difficult. There was a lot of conflict, um, and they'd never worked with any human design principles before. So rather than taking a big bang approach, I took a softly softly approach, you know, had a lot of sessions where we first of all set up social contracts to how we were going to work together so that you know we would mitigate threat states from the get-go and create an aligned environment for working from the get-go. And then essentially we slowly started working together from there. So agreeing on what the problem statement was together, agreeing that we'd look at thinking different uh from different perspectives from a polarity thinking point of view, rather than being it either or it could be both and and how we were going to deal with that and not get into threat about it. And then having a working group and then actually moving towards co-designing the new scope. So moving from teams completely in conflict to actually working together to co-design a new scope to share a new path forward that also included accountability partnerships. So I think that, you know, it didn't make the change overnight. It wasn't like, you know, washing your hair with panting. But I think that the positive difference there is that I know to this day that these teams continue to use co-design, continue to use social contracts, and continue to use human-centered design to work together to focus on ways forward. So for me, the positive difference is that it's a much more safer and human-centric workplace than what it may have been two years ago. And if that's all that I can do to make a difference and chip away one change at a time, because that's in reality all we can really do, to me, that's the kind of positive difference that matters. Showing people a new way, showing them that it's not scary and bringing people together.

Kath Hume 40:34

I think that that social contract would have contributed making that a safe space for people. And I love that you started that right up front. And I'd I would love you to go back to that teenager who was wanting to make a difference in the world and say, guess what, Rochelle? This is what you're going to achieve. And I'm sure she'd be very satisfied to see what you've been able to make happen.

Case Study: From Conflict to Co‑Design

Michelle Teunis 40:55

Yeah, I think my teachers would as well because I think they knew I wanted that, but they were a little bit sure on where my extroverted personality would take me. So many of my old uh Richmond high school teachers and western suburbs are listening. Um, yeah, I've done pretty well. No, I think a few of them know actually, so so it's all good.

Kath Hume 41:16

Um, all right, it has been wonderful speaking to you. I'm watching the clock tick by as a new up it would. You have been such a font of wisdom, and lots of what you're saying is not unfamiliar to me, but the way you're connecting it all and making it applicable to the workplace and what we're trying to achieve is just beautiful. I just love doing the podcast because I come across people like yourself who are making a positive difference in the world, and I love hearing that that is happening. So thank you so much, Michelle. Um, just before we say goodbye, could I share with listeners where people can contact you?

Michelle Teunis 41:55

Sure. So um social butterfly. So I'm on LinkedIn the most, uh, posting all things brains on change. So that's probably the best place. Um else, you can hit me up at my website, all thews.clabwise.com.au. Excellent.

Kath Hume 42:08

I will put those in the show notes as well. And I really do think that anybody who was following you would benefit from the tips and tricks that you share and just the insights and the knowledge. And it's just the way you present it is uh obviously designed that way. You can chunk it down for people so they get snippets and they can absorb it, apply it, come back for more. It's really it's really a great contribution they can make. So thank you.

Michelle Teunis 42:37

Thank you, really appreciate it. It's been fun.

Voice over 42:40

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Reimagine Workforce Podcast. We hope the conversation inspires you to consider new ways to solve your workforce challenges. Feel free to check out our other episodes that are available on our website, workforce.com slash podcast. And if you're looking to create a brighter future for yourself, be sure to grab a copy of Learn Solve Drive. Making a difference that matters in a fast and complex world. Available on Amazon and most of retailers globally.