📍 You're listening to unhooked. Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Kevin Griffin. Kevin is a Buddhist teacher and author known for his innovative work, connecting Dharma and recovery. Especially through his 2004 book, one breath at a time Buddhism and the 12 steps. He's a leader of the mindful recovery movement and one of the founders of the Buddhist recovery network. He has been a Buddhist practitioner for 40 years and a teacher for over two decades. His latest book is Buddhism and the 12 steps daily reflections. You can find out more about Kevin on his website and his YouTube channel, which I will link in the show notes. If you enjoy this episode, please make sure to hit the follow and subscribe buttons to make sure you don't miss any future episodes. And as always, if you feel like re leaving a review, it would be much appreciated. So without further ado, please join me in this conversation with Kevin Griffin.
So welcome ladies and gentlemen to another episode of Unhooked. I'm your host, Jeremy Leitz, and I'm excited to be here with Kevin Griffin. Kevin, very excited to, to have you on the show. I just finished your book, and I'm excited to dive into the world of 12 Step Recovery and Buddhism. You know, for me, Buddhism was a, a huge part of my own recovery journey, particularly the insight meditation tradition, Vipasana.
Um, and so I'm, I'm really curious to know a bit about your own story and so I'd, I'd love to just start with a quote of yours actually, and this is from the book. And so if you'll just give me a minute to read this quote in your book you said, Many of us imagined sobriety as a bleak, boring place where all the fun was stuck out of life, and we would live in eternal purgatory of party listlessness.
Instead, most of us find an entirely new life, one we couldn't have imagined. Sobriety isn't just a matter of removing drugs and alcohol from our lives. In fact, that's only a small part of it. Sobriety is finding a new way of living that involves engagement. Where there was withdrawal generosity, where there was self-centeredness, community, where there was isolation joy, where there was bitterness and trust, where there was cynicism.
And I'm wondering if you could just talk to me a little bit about that, about, you know, what sobriety and recovery really is to you.
That's great. Thank you, Jeremy. And, and just to, uh, be clear, you, you're reading from my first book, which is called One Breath at A Time, Buddhism, in the 12 Steps. I have five others, So, but usually when people say they read my book, I know which one they're talking about. That one sold a lot more than the others. And, and I love that quote,
actually, not to be too, you know, patting myself on the back. But, um, uh, it does really capture something so, so vital, um, that, that is really hard to see from the other side from, from before recovery. Um, Because our lives are so caught up and, and really centered around our addictive behavior, whatever it is. So much of our identity is wrapped up with that as well, so that it's not just, oh, I'm gonna, you know, not drink or use anymore, as I said, but, it's really discovering another identity, which, which is really frightening.
I mean, in terms of, fear and, and, you know, ego centered fear, loss of identity is right there at the top. You know, I see it in a lot of different ways. And, you know, when someone's publicly humiliated but certainly with addiction it's like, who am I gonna be? So it's a leap of faith in a way, right?
And then the 12 steps have a big sort of faith element, turning it over to God and all that kind of language. That's, you know, not quite, I don't think of it in those theistic terms, but, but there is this letting go that's, that's demanded. And, and that's, and, and, uh, as I say, not just letting go of the addiction, but, but letting go of identity and, and, trusting that you'll land somewhere, you know, um, that you won't just sort of float out there as a non-entity.
Yeah, I guess I'm, I'm just curious to know, you know, you talk about this, this other kind of sobriety that it, you know, we have this image of it being bleak and, you know, empty, but that it's really this whole other world and, and you say that it's a completely new life, one that can't be imagined until you're there, and it's both appealing and frightening.
And I'm wondering if you could talk a bit more about the appealing side of it.
Yeah. I mean, I think, it was a pretty grandiose statement. I'm not sure that that's exactly true for everybody. Uh, certainly has been true for a lot of people I know.
It's something about you know, when you create a vacuum something comes in, right? And so when that letting go happens around the addictive behavior, something inevitably comes into that. And I mean, here, I think I have to draw from Buddhist principles that the foundation of spiritual growth Buddhist terms is an ethical and wholesome lifestyle and behavior. And so that starts in that external way, and then that also applies to the mind. So there's a lot of letting go that happens. Letting go of the addictive behaviors, but letting go of that self-centeredness, as I said, and, letting go of what we would say lying, cheating, and stealing. You know, which is part of self-centeredness, right? Just this sort of lack of a sense of responsibility. One thing that comes up is this famous, uh, Buddhist alliteration called The Bliss of Blamelessness and it, it suggests again that Sila the ethical, moral kind of foundation actually brings a joy within itself. And as I say, you can't, you can't sort of discover it until you step into it. And so
another way that I think of this is that what I call a return to innocence, you know, that there is something about our addiction, which is a kind of corruption. And perversity and you know, that we, we sort of, uh, throw out the rules and as we become adults, we're now allowed to do adult things, which, you know, are mostly really destructive.
Smoking, drinking, you know, adult sexual misconduct, you know, uh, and for me, sober sort of took me back to a more innocent time to being a kid. You know? I mean, I'm fortunate that I have a lot of happy memories as, and not everybody in recovery has that. I mean, I had my share of trauma, but, but I still think of my innocence as something joyful. And so there's something about
Hmm,
letting go of those behaviors that feels childlike and playful and joyful.
Yeah. You mentioned the bliss of blamelessness, and this is, it's one of the, the things that really resonated with me and resonates with a lot of the people that I work with in, in the porn addiction space, and just this feeling of, of being in integrity and the bliss that comes when you're really practicing
And living an ethical life. And I'm also kind of reminded of the, the story of the four heavenly messengers from Buddhism. You know, that the Buddha kind of saw the, the sick person, the aging person, the dead person, and then saw this monastic walking and it was this kind of, this heavenly messenger, this sign of what a life could be like.
And I'm curious for you, was there a moment in your life that had that, that feeling to it like a heavenly messenger?
Uh, you know, I feel like there were probably a lot of those in a way. Um, I mostly the fourth messenger, the monk, you know, I, I mean, I, I felt drawn to spirituality from an early age. Uh, even as a, a, little boy, I felt a real, uh, sort of mystical connection to the, to the Catholic mass. Uh, and I performed it as an altar boy. In, in my childhood, it was done in Latin. So I there, which made it easier to become more mystical because I didn't know what it was about. But the, but it was the atmosphere that created that. then in my teenage years, certainly music was a spiritual guide for me. And then, then the, the spiritual scene that arose in the late sixties as, which is when I was a teenager, drew me. But my problem was that I was an addict, you know? And so there was always this conflict, you know, this inner conflict between what I was drawn to spiritually and what I was drawn to in the, you know, the material realm so yeah, for me, this, the heavenly messengers much more, I think, fell into that, that kind of positive category, except of course for the heavenly messenger of addiction. You know, when I, when I realized that, or I didn't even realize that addiction was my problem, but when it, when it became evident that the one thing I had not been willing to deal with in all my efforts to solve my life was my drinking and using, you know, that was huge moment. Of course, I mean, that was really the most transformative moment of my life was, was waking up on June 7th, 1985 and saying, it's done. I'm, it's over. And there was this tremendous feeling of relief. Uh, it was very surprising to me because I had certainly never wanted to stop drinking and using, um, I had always had to manage them, but it seemed like it was necessary to manage them. And, and it had never occurred to me that there would be a sense of freedom by letting them go. But that, uh, but the burden
of what I had been carrying became really evident when I stopped. And I, and I didn't see it until then, which is weird, but probably not that unusual.
Yeah, I, I think it's, to me, it seems quite a common thing that we look at almost everything else in our life. You know, if I just had the right girlfriend, if I just had more money, if I could just figure my career out, then my life would be solved. And we kind of look at everything else except for the addictive behavior, which in your case was maybe
and you know, I had
I had also done a lot of work on myself. I had done a lot of meditation. I had had had therapy. Um, you know, it, it wasn't that I was just trying to solve everything just with externals, although certainly that was a big part of it. But, but it's quite interesting and, and really an important part of this, my story for me, that even though I had been very serious about meditation, that it didn't the core issue of addiction, which, you know, I've, I've seen plenty of people take the same route, think that they could Take, as they say, a spiritual bypass, you know, that they could sort of solve their
emotional problems by meditating them away or chanting them away, or, you know, praying them away. And, um, it was only when I got sober, it was only when I stopped drinking and using that. Um, meditation practice really took hold and, and started to my life more broadly.
And, and really that, you know, the, the truth is that I, that I was only working with one area of Buddhism. I was working with the meditative area, skipping over the ethical area, as though that was just a
secondary issue. And, and frankly at that time, the early eighties, late seventies, I. In the Buddhist world, there was very little emphasis on Sila. You know, there was really this kind of assumption like, oh, well, you know, we're all, you know, we're cool, you know, it's okay to get high now and then a trip occasionally, you know, but we're, because we're gonna get enlightened and then, you know, it won't matter, whatever. I don't know. I don't know what the, it was just one of those a
justification that grew out of the hippie movement, which was, you know, as we know, very influenced and involved in the drug movement. And so my own sort of inner conflict was, was reflected in that external cultural conflict, uh, between a spiritual search and addictive behaviors.
Yeah. It's one of the things I find really fascinating about your story is that you, as you say, you really were immersed in meditation and spirituality, . Even before you got into recovery and, and you said you have this quote from the book, you said, looking back, I see how in meditation it was possible to deceive myself in silence.
In my own mind, what appeared and disappeared was not seen or heard by anyone else. I got no feedback and besides that, I didn't recognize the nature of my wrongs, the destructive and dysfunctional quality of my thinking, not to mention my behavior. And this is where the 12 steps have something to offer Buddhism.
And so for me, I find that really fascinating because my own background is, is almost entirely in Buddhism for Ana insight meditation. And I was always very allergic to the 12 steps and to anything that felt kind of religious. And so I'm just curious, you know, for you, what is it that the 12 Steps brings to Buddhist practice?
Well, we have to, that requires me to talk about both. But fir first of all, to directly answer the question, what they bring is a, what they say in the 12 sub literature, rigorous honesty and rigorous honesty about the nature of our addictive behavior. And, and so, um, that, and, and, and I will say the spotlighting of that element of our, of our behavior, not just considering it like, oh, that's a thing, you know, that happens, but really I'm a Buddhist. You know, the Fort Noble truths make it really clear that the problem is clinging. However, most people think of that in less specific terms, uh, you know, and, and sort of, it turns into an abstraction and into kind of like intellectual, like, oh yeah, we need to let go. And without really talking about the first noble truth, the suffering, like, I, it's very really interesting
to me, you know, and at least in Western Buddhist communities, I find that there's this real, uh, emphasis on positivity. You know, I'm, I'm very interested
in the concept of toxic positivity and I see that, see a lot of that in spiritual communities. So, you know, if you. Just talk about the second noble truth without acknowledging the first noble truth. If you just talk about, oh, letting go, versus like, what is the suffering?
You know, let me look at that. Look at the nature of it. If I'm just saying, oh, you know, I'm clinging to self, you know, I need to let go of self, whatever. Again, just abstractions that don't really mean much. Nothing happens, and you can sit around and meditate and like, oh, everything is empty. And like you can have very deep meditative experiences and then the bell rings and you go on with your life and what has really been looked at.
So, so I feel there's a, there's a lack sometimes of that kind of willingness to look at ourselves in, in the challenging way that the 12 step world requires when you have to write. Searching in fearless moral inventory. Again, I think there's a tendency in the Buddhist world, like when you go to a Buddhist group, what happens? You walk in to some beautiful like space and you say hello to somebody, but very often it's just silent and you meditate, and then some figure up on a stage gives this inspiring talk and you're like, oh, that's so beautiful. Like, oh, that's really great. I'm really, you know, and then you leave. And so what did we miss?
Well, first of all, we missed community, right? So obviously
that's one of the three jewels in Buddhism. But in Western Buddhism, again, it's been way underemphasized, the recovery world, the 12 step world. The foundation is community. It's not the 12 steps I. It's meetings. Meetings and community and the support
community that, that allows you to be honest and, and helps you and Yeah. I'll, I'll say that allows you to be honest and encourages you to be honest, is really the most transformative aspect of the 12 steps. Not step one, step two, step three. Yeah. That's a, that's a, a useful model for this work, but I don't think it's what
Hmm.
the 12 step world is built on, even though that's what I write all my books about, because it's hard to write books about, you know, going to a meeting.
Yeah.
Right. Right. But it's almost like the secret sauce of the 12 step is, is that encouragement to be vulnerable and to be human, and to talk about the messiness of,
You know,
and, and one of the things to notice about the 12 steps is that start, they say, we admitted we were powerless. And then that we carries over to every step we turned our lives over.
You know, we made a searching in fairness moment. So we understand that we're not doing this, you know, alone, that we're doing it with others. And that indeed our behavior is not unique. That, that there
is, it's not, you know, there's no shame around it. There's a responsibility, but not shame and. All of that is very
freeing. So you, you feel yourself going through it
with some, you, you don't, you don't do the steps alone, you know, and, and they,
they culminate the last step says, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others and to practice these principles in all our affairs. So it's this really expansive idea which is founded in service and giving it away and in living it in this very fulsome way. And so, so it,
it really, it's not really, it's very, I, I mean, it, it also really matches up with the idea of letting go of self, of self now in, in the 12 step world that we talk about self-centeredness more. So it doesn't have that like, oh, the self is empty concept. but that's where it's going. That's where it's pointing. It's easier to get there from that, from that
Yeah. I find that there are so many parallels. Things. And as you write in, in your book, in your book, one Breath at a Time, it's like you, you take a concept from the 12 steps and say, oh, here's where we see this also in Buddhism and vice versa. Here's a concept in Buddhism and here's where we see it in the 12 steps.
But I think what's interesting is even though these concepts in these principles exist in Buddhism, it's what's really emphasized in terms of how people are coming together. You know, it's like the importance of community is talked about. It's one of the three gems in Buddhism. There's the story we all know about how Ananda said, you know, community is half the spiritual life and the Buddhist, it's all of the spiritual life.
But it's really this emphasis on coming together. And I think what's also really interesting, you mentioned, and I've experienced this myself, that part of Buddhism, Vipasana insight, you know, it's this, this. Striving for
kind of saintliness perfection. This, you know, I want to be a good Buddhist and be virtuous.
And, um, and it doesn't necessarily encourage us to, to really expose our kind of the shameful side of things, the dark side. And I, you have this quote I just wanna read. You said, while many people tend to think of spirituality as looking up toward the heights of perfection and saintliness, we must first look down into the darkness of our souls and see and accept our shadow before we attain an honest and authentic spiritual life.
I like the quotes you pulled out, some of my favorites. Not, not the, you know, last winter, uh, some of the monks from the Berkeley Buddhist monastery asked me to meet with them. To talk about helping some of their community members who they feel are, have had problems with addiction. And then further, they asked me to come on a, an outing. They're working on building a bahara up in the Santa Cruz mountains actually. Um, and it was, it was really interesting. They, there were a, the group of lay people and these two monks, and we, we went and we did some work on the land and then we had a meal. And after the meal, the monks asked me to speak to the laypeople Applying Buddhist principles to a lay life, and essentially because of what you're talking about, which is that, you know, these lay people, they come around and they put on a good show around the monks, you know, and they make this largely Asian community. So, you know, that, that, um, traditional form where they're, they're very generous and they bring food and they're, they're very, you know, bowing to the monks.
And, but it turns out that, you know, outside of that context, there's all this, you know, chaos and disruption in their lives. I don't, I don't think just addictive behavior, but yeah. That they're, they're not integrating their Buddhist practice into their lives in an authentic way. And it was really shocking to me that these monks would ask me to do that.
But, uh, because. For me, I always considered monks. Okay, well you're, if I'm around you, you're the, you're the teachers, you know, but, but it was really interesting and, and very moving that they, they wanted me to talk about my experience and how I look at my practice as integrated into my life. That my Buddhism is not something that I just take to the monastery. Um, and really, really important. And, and I will say too, regarding community that, uh, we have a, a wonderful monastery, uh, in Northern California in the, that's in the acha tradition, the Thai Forest tradition. It's called Agiri. And the, the former Abbott who's kind of like the Emeritus Abbot, agen Passau is, is I, I consider him a friend as well as a teacher.
But you know, we've, we've worked together. He is helped me with some of my books and. When I go up to visit, there's not any of this feeling of holiness or sort of, you know, for, I mean, there's formality because there's form, but it doesn't feel stiff or, uh, you know, that there's, oh, we're the monks and you're the lay people.
It's like there're it's very human and, and it's, you know, of course there's rituals, but, but the foundation of it feels very much like we're just here to be a community together, to live together and to, and to support the lay community and to, and to find, you know, freedom to whatever extent we can in this lifetime.
And, and there's just something very touching about that. That's for, that's for me, more authentic than some of the lay communities that I encounter that feel like they're as, what's the term? Cosplay. Cosplay. I don't know how to say that word. You know, you know that term like,
Yeah. Cosplay.
Yes.
like the dress up
They're Buddhist.
Yes. Very
performative.
Buddhism, you know, and, and I'm tough, you know, I'm
being a little extreme about this. I'm kind of, you know, tough on people in this way. It's not, it's not like it's that bad, but, but there's, there's a bit of this out there that, that, I'm very
suspicious of, let's say.
Yeah. Well, and it, it sounds like it's coming from particularly, you know, when you're working with people in addictive communities where, where addiction is really the thing that this kind of performative aspect, it might work fine for some people who aren't struggling with real addiction, but when, when it comes to these kind of dark aspects of the soul, it's almost like we really need that, that radical honesty
That's why
I wrote my book, One Breath at a Time, wrote that book the way I did with that. You know, the opening of it is pretty intense. You know, it's a description of me getting drunk at a wedding and vomiting and you know, waking up in my own vomit and, you know, and, and that was to let people know, like, okay, I'm one of the, I'm one of you you know, I don't want you to think from the beginning of this that I'm gonna come on as some like guru. You know, I'm, I've been there because you can't reach an addict from up above, you know, talking down to them. Uh, that's why most drug and alcohol counselors are recovering addicts, , you know? Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, it's one of the reasons I'm very open with my own story of porn addiction is, is to let the people that I'm working with know, hey, I'm not, I'm not a guru. You know, and I'm, I know what it's like to be there and I. I think you, you mentioned this earlier, this feeling that you're not alone being a very healing aspect of the recovery movement, and I'm wondering if you could tell me what, what is it about that that is so
Well, and I think that's even more important around sexual sex addictions, whatever they are, that historically any kind of addictive behavior uh, you know, a source of shame. And, and we see this, certainly there are cultures, particularly like Asian cultures, uh, that, for which that's still the case.
Fortunately in the West, uh, we've lost. A significant amount of that. But as long as you, you feel that your behavior is unique and shameful, you're never gonna be able to heal from it. You know, you're, because you feel, uh, like you deserve to suffer because you're bad, right? And, And, you look at the world and you think other people are good and I'm bad. And you carry that around and, and what typically happens with that? I. Is that those feelings just trigger more addictive behavior because what, you know, one of the main reasons people act out in addictive ways is because they're having feelings that they don't wanna feel or that they don't know how to process and how to hold. And so when, you add on top of whatever suffering there is, that's, sort of the foundational trigger for the addictive behavior. You add on top of that shame, guilt, you know, unique uh, being uniquely flawed. Well, it's just a toxic combination that just makes it worse and worse. So it's so important.
I mean, it's that, that revelation. Of walking into a, a room full of people who you realize these people all did the same shit I did. You know, and they're not judging me. And, And, they, especially in the beginning, it's like, and they seem to be having a good time, you know, they seem to be happy, like, what is going on? You know? Um, I mean, the other, the other irony too is the, oh, I don't know if I want to go to an, to a meeting because if I go there, everybody will know that I'm an addict. And it's like, yeah, that's because they're all addicts, so it's okay. So all of that, completely changes, right? Our whole pers self-image and our perspective on ourselves, which is so, so critical that I. And, and again, this ties into Buddhism because Buddhism is telling us not only are you not unique, you know, you're just a conglomeration of, you know, you're not really a solid thing in the first place. But, but it, you know, really has this sense that, um, I don't have to, you know, I'm not really tied to this, this story. That's just a story that, that, that thing that I think is my identity is a story. And, and there can be a completely different perspective on it. And so when we, when we see that we're just one a bunch of people who did similar things, there's a deflation that goes with that. But it's a healthy deflation.
Right. You know, 'cause. Uh, that what they call an AA terminal uniqueness of like, I'm a, I'm just really the worst person in the world, you know, that's, that's inflation, that's ego, right? It's negative ego, but it's ego. And so when you say, oh,
I'm, I'm bad. Like a, like a whole lot of people are bad it's deflating and, you know, and you can be sort of like, oh, well I guess I'm not so special after all.
And then it's like, oh yeah, I'm not so special after all, And, and that's, it's just a really, really important piece. I think without that, uh, any kind of recovery is very difficult 'cause there, because you're gonna be in this struggle with this negative self-identity that's, that's just undermining any kind of, You know, transformative effect,
Yeah. I'm reminded of the, the concept of
mana in Buddhism or conceit, and I find what's really interesting is they talk about how conceit, you know, normally we think conceit is, oh, I'm better than this person. But in Buddhism we also talk about how conceit is also, I'm worse than this person, or even . What I've heard is even
I'm the same as this person is also a form of conceit and that the only real kind of truth is just I am who I am.
This, this, I'm, I'm not the same. I'm not worse, I'm not better.
can see, it's an interesting word, right? Because in English we, and we always have, we do this so often with Buddhism, it's like, uh, conceit. As you say, it is like normally like, oh yeah, I'm the special person, but it's the way, the way I think of that word, it's really about conceiving, conceiving a self. I'm, I conceive that there
is a self, so it's, it's really like a belief
or a perception a misperception of self. And, and so that, that's, yeah, I, I, you know, putting that with, so, so what, what I think it's about then, and, and you were pointing to this, is comparing, that's why thinking you're better, worse, or even the same is just comparing, and that's conceiving, which is
Hmm
creating, which is, we could say just based in duality. Because anytime there's comparing, it's duality, right?
And, and so, uh, and, and there's uniqueness. You know, even if we're, we're, you know, similar, we're we're saying we're just as, we're both good or we're both bad, we're still conceiving these two. And, and that's what we're
really trying to get out of in, in Dharma practice is, is
conceiving,
Yeah.
I'm curious to know, so we've talked a little bit about, you know, what the 12 steps has to offer Buddhism. What is it that you think Buddhism has to offer the 12 steps?
Oh, I mean, I, I think, yeah, there's at least as much, if not more, going in that direction. Certainly. uh, uh, the first thing that Draws people to my work is they get to the 11th step and the 11th step says we're supposed to meditate. So clearly Buddhism, you know, Buddhism presents, you know, the greatest meditative technologies that have probably ever been created. Um, so yeah, for sure people get connected with, with Buddhism through meditation and the potential that that leads to of calm and insight And as you know, like those two terms have very broad meanings, but the, but the calm is something that, you know, no matter how long you've been sober, you, you need ways to deal with stress. And, and in fact, oftentimes this is what causes relapse and people can have a lot of time of sobriety or working a program. Relapse if they haven't dealt with just that energetic state to be able to modulate our, our energy, uh, that we can do with meditation, with the CONCENTRATIVE tools. And then the insight, that clarity that comes through. You know, as we've been talking about Vipasana Insight Meditation broadens out the spiritual principles of Alcoholics Anonymous or whatever, into of the 12 steps out into more universal principles. So, Obviously the three characteristics. Everything is impermanent, everything is unsatisfactory.
There is no abiding self. Seeing these things and and bringing these ideas into our lives and particularly into the lives of someone in recovery, just gives so much clarity about how we move through the world and how we relate to the world, how we perceive the world. So that's a start. my second book, which I've just actually rereleased this week with a new title, which 'cause it never had the right title, but I, I've changed the title to Buddhism in the 12 steps, higher Power 'cause. It's, that's what it's about. That book is about all the ways that we can look at elements of the dharma as powers. And so it's really trying to help people to work those challenging aspects of the steps that Are viewed as theistic and give them another way to view those theistic steps. Uh, that power of mindfulness, the power of loving kindness, the power of wisdom, the power of sah, you know, and, and all of a sudden turning your will in your life over to these powers can make sense. It, it makes sense that mindfulness is something that you try to live in alignment with love and kindness. It, that's a power, right? Love is powerful. And when we, if we turn our will in our lives over to the power of love, well that's a beautiful way to work. Step three. So we find that there's, there's a whole bunch of doors that open and really I think the 12 steps expand. Uh, Way beyond their original conception when we bring the dharma into them.
It's what I've always loved about the Budha Dharma is like, it, it feels like this kind of beacon of light of, of these aspirational. You know, before when I was in my addiction, it was all very just, okay, I just want sex and money and fame and validation. And it's just, but then when you open up to these more wholesome qualities of equanimity, like deep equanimity, deep inner peace, love and kindness, compassion, it's this feeling of
like, this lightness, almost like the bliss of blamelessness, like this feeling of, of inner peace and the lightness of that.
And I think, you know, that's one of the things that strikes me is it's, it has this kind of beacon of light quality
Absolutely. And the thing. Our instincts, and particularly when we're driven by addictive energies, they, they lead us in the, the wrong direction for finding happiness. And of course, this is clearly stated by the Buddha, but we we have a misconception of what brings happiness. Just as you said, like we think that, and society promotes the idea that money, romance, power, possessions, uh, sense pleasures that this is what will make you happy. And you know, it, it's really a problem, when you're striving and putting all your energy into doing something that's inevitably gonna leave you unsatisfied. When, and you think that's gonna bring you happiness. So it's not surprising that people get on this cycle of addiction because they keep thinking, well, I had a moment there when it felt good. I, I need just to get some more of that. And so I think that when people get their first taste, I know this was true for me, that first taste of really a deep, a deep state. I think equanimity is a good way to characterize this. A deep state of peace of equanimity. discover, oh, happiness is something different from what I thought it was. And it's that idea that we see in the dharma that, that the highest happiness is peace. And that, again, is not what's promoted culturally. And certainly I. The capitalist system would have a hard time surviving if everybody adopted that belief. We, I mean, I think we could figure out a way, you know, but, but it's clearly capitalism is, is based on this, uh, belief that, that you can find happiness through the material world. And, uh, when you discover that that's not true, it, that's one of the biggest ra most radical shifts that happens in anybody's spiritual growth.
Yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit more about equanimity because it, you know, for me, I think it is, it was such a, a turning point kind of insight, you know, that the addictive. Um, the nature of addiction is this, you know, the realm of the Hungry Ghost and this constant hunger, this insatiable leaning forward and wanting this, uh, something, wanting some form of pleasure.
And when you experience equanimity, even just a moment of it, of this kind of sitting, you know, balanced without grasping after something pleasant, without pushing away what's unpleasant. That kind of piece is so liberating, just the experience of that, because it's such a contrast to the addictive state, the state of, I need to have this thing in order to be happy.
And one of the quotes, you know, that you wrote in, in your first book, you said, what causes our suffering isn't a lack of material things or emotional experiences, but rather the craving, the desire itself, the energy that keeps driving us to engage in the chase and that that. You know, it really is what Buddhism is about is you know, that craving is the source
right.
And so I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about
Yeah,
I.
I think there's, there's, two ways that I think it's important to think about it. One is what you're describing, that meditative experience of, of deep peace and balance where we feel as if, you know, we can't, nothing can disturb us. It's just a, a, a real sense of, um, safety and, and, um, and faith. There's a faith involved in it that you really trust that you're okay. Where I think it's has a, a more important role in terms of our main maintaining our, uh, spiritual balance is in learning to be with the unpleasant. And particularly with the unpleasant and, learning to not learning that it's possible to experience unpleasant feelings, sensations, thoughts, emotions, without trying to fix them and learning to hold them.
Hmm.
And that that's really where the possibility of, that's what protects us from relapse, and it protects us from suffering because it's inevitable that we're going to experience the pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral experiences, the but it's what we do with those sense impressions that determines our karma. You know, it determines how our lives play out and determines whether we are suffering or not. And so, uh, uh, I think an important part of our practice and, and we, we practice this in meditation and then try to carry it into our daily lives, is to sit with the unpleasant, to breathe with that, to allow it and to watch it fade.
So watch its impermanence, and to see how, uh, how okay it is to feel something unpleasant. Because this is one of the, my sort of ideas about addiction that, or about addicts that we're not very good at dealing with pain. And, and I don't, again, I don't know if you can generalize that much about addicts, but I, well just put out this idea that perhaps we're, we're our, if we can learn to be with pain, And, and obviously I'm not talking about extreme pain, just discomfort, you know, emotional, physical, mental discomfort. That that can, that in and of itself is a, a really key aspect of recovery. Uh, it's, it's to be undisturbed by the pleasant,
the unpleasant, or the neutral, just, and just allowing it to come
and go. And that's, you know, it's a, a key part of our meditation practice of the insight practice. And, and it's really a key part of recovery. Uh, 'cause you know, when we get triggered, you know, off we go. And so if we can learn to just breathe with the triggers, feel the triggers, allow them, hold them in a bigger space to realize, oh, this is unpleasant. It's not gonna last forever. It's not killing me. And I can take steps to change it in wholesome ways. Right? And of course that's, that's a lot of what we do in recovery is finding skillful and wholesome ways to respond to our experiences in life. That we don't go for a drink that we call a friend, that you know, that we don't, uh, you know, go on the internet to search for some good porn. We, you know, take a walk.
We, you know, call a friend definitely a lot of calling friends. I think,
Yeah. Yeah, in, in 12 steps. It definitely seems that that's the
well
I don't know if, like, meditating is always the best idea when we're feeling triggered either. 'cause unless you have a very
strong meditation practice, uh, you know, sitting down and doing nothing can just like allow the mind to sort of become more susceptible. I.
Yeah. And I think that's where it's beautiful to, to be honest about the shortcomings of, of Buddhist practice when it comes to recovery. That, you know, sitting and meditating isn't always the best option, even though kind of in the Buddhist world we, we like to say, oh, okay. You know, like sit with it, you know, like, be with your discomfort, but sometimes you need to go take a cold shower
or call a friend
or
Yep,
Exactly. Get some exercise, you know? Um, absolutely. Uh, the idea that there's one solution is, is always a, to me, a setup. You know, it's like, oh, well if that doesn't work,
then you're just doing it, right? It's like, yeah, I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I
mean, you know, if you're like, maybe a highly evolved Meditator, you know, who can sit down and just go into Samati right away? Great. I mean, like the Buddha said, when he was dying at his la the last, you know, probably month of his life, he said the only time he could be free from pain was if he, you know, went into a meditative absorption. But, you know, he presumably could just sit down and go into a meditative absorption, you know, most of us need about two weeks of silent practice before we get anywhere close to that. So, you know,
Yeah. Yeah. . I'm curious, is there anything that you wish you knew at the start of your recovery journey?
That's a terrible question. I don't mean that it tech a very good question is a challenging question. Hmm. I, I, I guess. I was a little slow to really jump in, so I guess I wish, wish I had known that, uh, that it was worth just jumping in. Now, I literally stood in the back of meetings for the first year. I did not raise my hand, take people's phone numbers. Uh, you know, I didn't share. I just watched. And that was very risky. And it didn't, I, I mean, again, everything, uh, can, can be a learning experience and that was a learning experience that I, that I feel is valuable now. But definitely it was not helping me then. It was not something that I, yeah, I, I would've rather, um, yeah, been more involved right away, you know, not, not held back.
Hmm. I wonder if it was almost a necessary way for you to get in kind of the safety of not needing to, to dive right in, but kind
Uh, for sure. And, and,
even your question, it's kind of like, no, I think everything had to happen. I mean, I'm not like a fatalist, but everything that happened has had, you know, a benefit and has been part of a process. And we can't skip, we can't skip ahead in a process, right. We obviously, we all wish we could,
you know, um, you know, skip over the hard parts or, you know, but, uh, it just doesn't, life doesn't seem to work that way. Uh, uh,
hmm. Yeah. What do you think most people get wrong about 12 step
that it's religious. I don't think it's religious. I mean, I heard you use that term and I don't, and, and so. Yeah, I mean, that's the first thing, uh, and that it's, that it's cult-like, because everybody says, hi, my name's Kevin and I'm an alcoholic. You know, they, oh, they make you say that. I, I think there, people look at the surface elements of it without understanding, uh, you know, the deeper, the deeper power of it.
And, and the, and the last thing, the, the other thing, and this I particularly for people who even, you know, addicts, people don't realize that 12 step recovery in any recovery is much more than stopping a certain behavior. People very much identify, you know, I. The 12 steps as, oh, then you'll stop drinking, then you'll stop taking drugs, then you'll stop using porn. And like that was the end of the process. is the beginning of the process. That's, uh, uh, there's a lot more to the pro. There's one step about stopping the rest of it's the other 11, which is about living as a person in recovery and, and evolving as a person in recovery. So those are a few things people get wrong.
Yeah, it's beautiful that a lot of people think above of recovery as kind of stopping some behavior, but really it's about evolving and growing.
Yeah. And, and, and I will say,
going back, I think there's definitely an idea that, and, and I understand this, I mean, I've debated this with people, but that, that the God of the 12 steps, Is the God of basically fundamentalist Christianity or evangelical Christianity. That's one of the things people get wrong. Uh, word
God, I think has gotten a bad name. It's gotten a bad rap.
Yeah. And I imagine in your, the latest book, the Buddhism in the 12 Steps, a Higher Power, you
Ab absolutely. I mean, I don't, I don't believe in a,
a god, like, you know, the God that I believed in when I was, you know, six years old. I mean, that, that's a childish idea. And people grow, but people grow up and keep that idea. I talk about this in that book, Budha Dasa Bku, who you may have be familiar with, great Thai Forest master. He, he did quite a little bit of, of Uh, work with, uh, Christianity and Buddhism and interfaith work and, and he talked about how people learn when you're a child. You're taught like, God is this man up in the sky, in the clouds with a white beard. And, and that, that's just something you tell children. But then people never evolve
beyond that and so they completely miss, uh, what the meaning of God or what the potential meanings of God are, that are of value, uh, and, and how we can have a relationship to the world as, uh, this, as including and involving powers that we have to deal, we have to deal with.
We have to deal in Buddhism. It's the power of karma, and that's essentially the higher power of Buddhism. Like, you can't cheat karma.
You know, you can't get around it. It's more powerful than you. You can either get, you know, harmonized with it or you're gonna get slapped down. You know, it just doesn't, there's just no choice in it.
And that's, that's a lot like Jehovah You know? It just like, it, it's just not a guy. It's not like a being it, and it's not
personal. It's nothing personal about it. It's not about you, you know? Or you can say some words, oh God, please be nice to me. Like karma doesn't care what you, what words you say. Yeah.
It's just the way the
and you're creating
karma. When you say
a prayer, you're creating karma. And that's, that can be uplifting and positive karma because you're planting positive thoughts in your mind, but you're not getting talking to some force out there that's gonna say, oh, I'm that person down there, Jeremy, he deserves an extra bonus because he said nice words to me.
I mean, it's so stupid. Sorry,
Yeah. No, I love, I mean it, this is one of the things I really appreciate about. The, um, for me it feels like the western, the pasta tradition, the Western Teretta tradition
is very real. You know, it's very honest. It's down to earth, it's grounded. It's not a lot of gurus that you have to bow down to. It's people who are saying, listen, this sounds like a load of bullshit.
I'm human. I, you know, yell at airport security guards sometimes too, and my emotions get the better of me. And I find that very comforting to have
that kind of approach.
Well, I know,
but if you're if you're not real, what are you? Yeah.
yeah. Well, it's interesting in your, you know, in the book, your first book, you, you have this story of, is it Ananda that
Yeah.
the kind of the spiritual guru that you
knew him.
and Yeah, it was, it was quite cringe worthy to read that and you know, to, it felt like watching, you know, one of these Netflix documentaries on how to be a cult leader.
I know.
Kind of thing.
Yeah. Low rent cult, as I like to call it, you know, following a homeless guru.
Yeah.
I mean, the Buddha was a homeless guru, but, you know, I don't think, uh, Ananda was the Buddha. Afraid
not, uh,
yeah, yeah. What would you, if someone's listening to this and let's say they're dealing with porn addiction and, and they're on the beginning of, you know, having these moments of clarity of, of waking up to the fact that it's not healthy for them and not improving their life, is there any advice that you would have for someone like that?
Listening
Hmm. Advice, would anybody listen to
words of
No, I, I mean, I think the most important thing is to Recognize really clearly your own suffering. You know, the, it's like, because recognizing that as being in denial and that's what allows you to continue any kind of self-destructive behavior, any kind of behavior that's harming you and others, you have to, you have to hold it away from, you can't, you can't fully face it. So fully looking at the feelings that come over you and that whole process of the grasping, the feeling of need that then, know, the acting out and then the, the experience afterward and to see wow. Is this, is this necessary? Like these are choices and, and to see. So, so to me, so that's number one is to really see the suffering because you have to be motivated to give up an addiction.
It's hard. And the motivation is to, to honestly see the suffering. And then the other thing to me is to really be clear about what are the triggers avoid those triggers and work really hard to avoid those triggers and to replace them and find alternative choices to make behaviors, things to do that support you moving in a different direction. But you have to, once we get triggered into any kind of craving, I. The, there's a, there's a line you cross in which there's no, there's no going back. You're gonna act it out, you're gonna drink, you're gonna go, you know, uh, act out on the, the porn, whatever that addiction is. so so the, the key thing in terms of actually not doing it is to not get letting that craving arise. Uh, and and so both of those things really involve mindfulness. To be mindful of the, of the pain is to get that motivation and then to be mindful of the triggers and those moments when, oh, I really need to make another choice right now, or I'm going down that to that old pathway. Uh, that's for what it's
worth.
That's my advice.
I guess what I'm hearing from you is, is to really, as you say, to be aware of the suffering. To be aware of the ways that it, the, the craving, the longing. It, it's insatiable, like it doesn't
Yeah. Uh, uh, it, uh, it absolutely doesn't, right? as, as you know, as, as we, we both know, like, and, and we fool ourselves into thinking it's that it's worth it in some way, but if we see how much suffering there is involved in it, that undermines that belief that it's worth it. But it's also really important to just be able to, like, I've worked at times with making vows like that.
I identified triggers and making vows to avoid them, like, so that, so that I would be very clear. I, I think it's really important to be very specific about the things that set you off. Uh, Rather than just like, oh, I'm just gonna stop. Oh, I really need to not do that anymore. It's like, yeah, okay. But watch the process. Catch that when it's like, you're really tired or you got really angry, you're lonely. You know, um, you know, you've been exposed to some, you know, you see someone or you know, or you're watching a movie with somebody and something comes on that sets you off to like really be aware, oh, that's, oh, that's triggering.
Okay. I really need to like, turn away, you know? Yeah.
Hmm hmm. Are you familiar with the book, the Little Prince? Have you, do you, do you remember the story of the baobab tree?
remind me.
It's this one of these little vignettes where, you know, the, the prince lands on this planet and he has to uproot these little baobab seedlings, you know, these little plants. Because if he doesn't uproot them when they're small, over time, they grow to these massive trees that end up destroying the planet, and they become too deeply rooted to actually pull out once they're big.
And so it's this beautiful lesson on really being diligent on uprooting these things in the beginning, like nipping them in the butt, you know, and just really being diligent of, of doing that work while they're still small. Because if you, if you don't, if you procrastinate, if you say that's not a big deal and you let them grow, they, they get out of control.
I. For me, it's a beautiful kind of reminder to, to do the work while you still have the power, while you still have the
That's, yeah. Perfect, perfect correlation for what I'm talking about. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kevin, this has been a, a fascinating conversation and I'm very grateful for you for coming on the podcast and spending some time here. Um, I'm wondering where can people find out, you said you are re-releasing your book.
I am
in just my website, kevin griffin.net. That's pretty much got everything on there. I do Zoom classes, uh, every week, although I'm going on a retreat starting next week for six weeks, but I'll be back on the, on Zoom in December. And, and then I do classes and retreats next year. I'm teaching, I've got five retreats scheduled, so there, everything and that, all of those things are on my website. I also have like a YouTube channel that you can get through there and yeah, books and, you know, there's lots
of me out there. Yeah, really
the good stuff. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll link all the, the links in the show notes below. Um, so Kevin, it's really, it's been wonderful
Thank you Thanks very much Jeremy. Great
to talk with you.
All right, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Unhooked. We'll catch you on the next episode.