"If you look at some of the Premier League teams, look at how much money they are now spending to identify and bring the talent in and the failure begins there..."

In this episode, John Andrews - the Deal Lawyer talks to specialist business coach Martin Robert Hall. Martin works with professional athletes, elite sports clubs and business owners.

Martin is able to use some of the techniques used in sport in the business setting.

The heart is for business owners to understand what they want, what is the vision? What do they want to achieve and why? Then who is on the journey.

John Andrews - https://www.jmw.co.uk/people/john-andrews

Martin Robert Hall - https://www.martinroberthall.co.uk/

Transcript

00:00:00:09 - 00:00:32:13
Welcome to the Deal Lawyer Podcast,  I'm John Andrews.

00:00:32:15 - 00:01:09:07

And today I'm pleased to tell you that we're joined by Martin Robert Hall. He's a high performance business coach and also as well, so he's a high performance business coach and also has performed his sports to a high level master. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks John, it's nice to be here. So so, just to give you a little background, we've done some technical subjects of the past this podcast with us on a fairly dry subject, usually led by me talking about M&A and share purchase agreements.

00:01:09:09 - 00:01:41:17

So since you like to have somebody who's got some really interesting work to talk about, so even a business coach of the year, can you just tell me a little bit about what a business coach does? Yes. Well, I mean, it's a very it's a broad topic. It's support title. And I think that there will be lots of business coaches that ultimately bring different things to the table, have different skill sets, different ranges of experience, and play different roles within a business.

00:01:41:19 - 00:02:14:00

What I can say about myself is it's predominantly my role is focused around people. And in a nutshell, getting the best out of the people in the business. That's my role. That's what I play with all of my clients. And in fact, you mentioned the work in sport. That's of all the playing sport. And for me, that's where it all began actually, you know, before I even came into the business world, all my education was in sport and all around people and performance.

00:02:14:02 - 00:02:42:07

And then it just led into the business world not to see you. You're dealing with human beings. So there's many parallels. Okay, So just just to explore the time between sort of sport and business a bit more, What what are the parallels? Well, there's there's quite a lot of parallels and there's also quite a lot of differences. And, you know, it would be interesting to explore some of those.

00:02:42:09 - 00:03:05:12

But the biggest one, which just then filters down into lots of different areas, is the fact that in both domains what a business and what a sports organisation are trying to do is that what they're trying to achieve? Some level of success, some results. So they've got Target that they're trying to achieve and they're trying to do that through people.

00:03:05:14 - 00:03:27:12

And that's the biggest problem really. And like I say, that's not my area of expertise of what I'm passionate about and interested in. And it's that bit now then you can look into, well, how do you get the best out of people? And frankly, we could be here all week talking about that in a nutshell, but say it's getting the best out of people, achieving results through people.

00:03:27:12 - 00:03:56:11

And that's the that's the key thing that they have in common. The difference, obviously, is big. And I often joke with some of my clients and say, imagine if you came in to work on a Monday morning and you you turned on your laptop and you had 4000 messages calling you every name on that top. That's one of the differences about performing in a sports world, you know, an elite one.

00:03:56:13 - 00:04:29:01

Yeah. Is performing in the business world. So the spotlight and the pressure is entirely different. But the reality is you're trying to achieve results to people and that's what's similar. Okay, so lots of the business podcasts will be SMB businesses. So if I were to place myself in the position of of a business owner and an accountant here, say, look, I'm looking to your services in our first discussion of first meeting, what is it you'd want?

00:04:29:01 - 00:04:55:08

You'd want to ask me what is that you want to find out about? So that's a really good question. Well, firstly, I want to understand about you as a person like the history of the business, and I think the very the first starting point for any business to get the clarity on is what's the vision, What are you looking to achieve and why.

00:04:55:10 - 00:05:18:00

So, you know, what is it you ultimately want and why do you want it to get. That's the how really to get to the heart of that. And and then it's about understanding who, you know, who's on that journey. What web are you currently So really a big, deep dive, really analysis in terms of where you are right now.

00:05:18:02 - 00:05:43:21

Where are you looking to get to? Who is with you? You know, what are the what are the things that have happened that are leading you, that have been going well? What are the things that are getting in your way? What are the challenges? And I, like I say, my area. I focus on these people. And in most businesses, the biggest challenge is people, because that's the most unpredictable part.

00:05:43:23 - 00:06:11:06

So really I'm understanding about what people journey and well, this is, you know, and I understand how important that is. So I've recently taken over as the as the head of the London office at J.M.W., and I've had to learn a whole new set of skills. I've changed being a lawyer to its people manager. Really, It's been a tough transition, but maybe I should have called you in at new stage.

00:06:11:07 - 00:06:34:20

Any. So listen to what you just said and it resonates in me. So at the moment I'm looking at where we want to take this office next. We want to take this firm next. And I'm working back from there. If, if, if I were to be speaking to you now, I guess an important part of the process would be you speaking.

00:06:34:20 - 00:07:01:01

So they would work here to see what their views of the business, what their views of the management and what direction they want to take to see whether the the values aligned with that. Would that be fair? Yeah. I mean, that's one of the the roles I can play sometimes is that work can be done internally. So, you know, sometimes that work has been done internally before I'm introduced, but sometimes it's not.

00:07:01:01 - 00:07:23:14

And sometimes it's a blank slate and sometimes, you know, and and then we sort of construct that journey and how that would look together. But that's not something that you definitely need me for. But one of the one of the services I offer is an audit. And that, you know, that audit is around that. So it's understanding quite well.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:46:19

If I'm talking to a leadership team and I'm understanding from their point of view, this is our vision. This is these are our values, this these are our timelines, this is why we want to go. This is how we'd like to do it. Then part of my role sometimes can be to then go out to some key players within the business and find out actually how well do you understand that vision?

00:07:47:00 - 00:08:26:07

How clear is that to you? And just then start to get a day job? Yeah. Are they on the same page or is there a gap? Is there a gap between how clear leadership are and how to say middle management and everybody else's? And of course, that's a really key part of the process I've just identified. If there's a gap and then how to close it and I maybe I'm jumping on a bit, but one of the things that I come up against time and time again is and you know, this is something, you know, somebody that I always look to studied in football was Sir Alex Ferguson.

00:08:26:07 - 00:09:02:06

And the one thing you sat there the most important part of his role was communication. And that's what I find in businesses as well, is the it's the communication which ducks the thread, which sows the gap between leadership, understanding the vision and everybody else too. I can provide experience the game, and that's all I can go from. What I've come to realize in these last few months is that it's easy for me to have an idea all of my other parts of an idea as to where we want to go, what decisions we want to take.

00:09:02:08 - 00:09:35:06

Quite often the most important thing that we forget to do is to communicate that to the people that we're working with and I think can be down from very small things, which actually matter matter to people hugely. So look at the structure of the process to bring in a business. Coaching can can evolve. So you become a we have a discussion, we work out what the vision is, where we want to take, where we want to take the business, what's typically we will put that in a support you provide.

00:09:35:06 - 00:10:10:07

Look, like you said, it's a regular monthly meetings. This is a reporting. What what does the process look like? Well, there's lots of answers to that question. There is no typical process right now. You could say in an ideal world, if you've got an absolute blank sheet of paper, this is how we would design the process. Yeah, So it works differently for every organization, depending on where they are, whether they're looking to go on and lots of parts.

00:10:10:09 - 00:10:41:23

But typically the one commonalities, it starts with a leadership team. That's where that's the most important piece. It starts with the leadership team and depending on how much work they've done to date already, that would then again determine the start point. So have they got a clear vision? Have they got clear values? How is how have they actually got arrived at those that vision and values have that included everyone else in the business?

00:10:42:00 - 00:11:15:20

So from there, from the vision, then it's about understanding. Right now this is the next piece cycle behaviours or winning behaviours, to be precise. So that is in each department of the business. What do the winning behaviours look like to achieve that vision? And that looks different in sales than it does in operations, right? Yeah. And so it's about understanding the behaviours are how you close the gap, because it's one thing saying this is what we want to do and this is what we believe in.

00:11:15:20 - 00:11:38:02

And these these are the values that are important tools. But then the other bit and often the hard part that is actually going in doing displaying those behaviours that close the gap. And sometimes you find a mismatch between what people say they want to be. And actually when you go out and you observe people, what people are actually doing.

00:11:38:04 - 00:12:12:01

So there's a bit of work to do that by identifying those behaviours that close that gap. And so often that will probably result in some form of leadership program, which typically for me will warn most of the ones that I'm doing with clients at the moment going over a 12 month period, and that might be now in the world since COVID, it's normally a hybrid approach, which is, you know, at least a day together once per quarter is typical.

00:12:12:03 - 00:12:41:07

And then in between some time online. And that might be a combination of online in a group for like on a call like this or 1 to 1 as well. If there's some 1 to 1 work for me to do a so so so with that involves typically you know basis virtually or if you live with people in other businesses so you can exchange ideas, see how they do it or was it a are they siloed?

00:12:41:07 - 00:13:17:23

I do run open courses where you get different business owners and different leaders from businesses coming together, and that's nice. It's always a good, you know, environment for people to see what other people are doing and get a contrast, share in ideas and best practice. But typically it's an internal piece and that's, you know, there's so many different parts to it that if you if you pull people out and put them in an environment of other people, they there's not enough time to focus on their own business.

00:13:18:00 - 00:13:42:11

And actually, you know, that's the main focus of most of my projects. So I typically I don't work with, you know, when I first started out, my business went with lots of different business, a lot of more smaller interventions coming in, doing a workshop, doing a keynote, doing a bit coaching, doing both things. Now the projects I work on a much longer and the timeline is longer because it's about really it's about building a high performance culture.

00:13:42:13 - 00:14:11:18

And so I'm more like a partner in within my clients businesses now, helping them on that journey to build that culture. It takes a long time because, you know, a culture is it's basic. You make, you know, it's just the habits and the behaviours of everybody in the organization. But you go and try and change one habit in your own life, and then you realise when you're trying to change a collection of them for a whole organisation, it's not an overnight job.

00:14:11:20 - 00:14:35:00

Well, it's Yeah, well, it's interesting. You say that. So you're probably being a lawyer. The course saying we said is our time. And yeah, I would say that this this office hasn't been the best recording time that is that speaks about the key factors that I try to try to change those behaviours. This is six months now a speedy, hard work.

00:14:35:02 - 00:14:49:12

We're getting there, but trying to get that message over and keep really focused on that message. Is it something that some sort of think some. So I'm I got it. It's hot with this. You know, I'm like I only focus in this too harshly. But but the fact of the matter is that it's a key metric for us.

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:34:19

But but change in those behaviours has been has been difficult. So I fully understand I sympathise with trying to change more than one behaviour is is a tough task and change it all is an interestingly you mention and that's one of the big things that is often underestimated, especially from a leadership team, is how much something needs to be reinforced, regularly communicated, followed upon and know and that accountability system in place and the amount of time to consistently follow will to see change become sustainable.

00:15:34:21 - 00:16:00:12

And what often happens is the change programs and new interventions and ideas kick off with a bank with a lot of energy behind them. Whether that's a new vision and values, it's a you know, it's a it's a new culture, a new mindset, a new target. And it starts strong. But the follow up is where most people just slack off.

00:16:00:12 - 00:16:37:03

And and that's the bit that, you know, that's the bit that takes the hard work because it's not necessarily exciting anymore. It's just about repetition and maintenance and reinforcement that is absolutely key to building the habits. Yeah, I think I think that's right. And you know, when I took over this role, there were a whole raft of things that I looked at and the only way to sort of get my head around trying to develop these new skills and try to manage the office in the way that I wanted to manage it was thwarted by three or four key elements, I thought really essential.

00:16:37:05 - 00:17:00:14

So the business side of the big time record building cash collection, I think were the three things I thought was I focus on ideas initially and get those fundamentals right. I keep great written. We've seen how important my work and get those rights and then start expand out a bit more so that the other parts of they as a culture, you know, I wanted to change and I think that would be the right approach or not.

00:17:00:14 - 00:17:21:18

And so the only way that I can think of of doing it really well, what I really like about what you've said is the power of three. And that's something I use a lot in my work when introducing new ideas and talking about follow up and focus, because anything more than that becomes diluted. And so, like you say, talk about the challenge of change, your repetition.

00:17:21:18 - 00:17:53:17

One of the big challenges we have with, you know, when you've taken a company on that journey is there are so many different areas that you could begin. And if you go out to the people, they'll be the feedback, They'll be lots of different areas that are more important to one than the other. And so before you know it, the biggest challenge is just filtering that down and getting a very clear focus on this is the bit that we're going to really focus on a muster to get some momentum and then we can look at the other things.

00:17:53:17 - 00:18:13:20

And it's a temptation that that gets in the way of things. And sometimes, you know, that temptation is always there. So you could be six months into that and then suddenly something else pops up and that's on, on the agenda. And that's important. And just staying on track and staying focused is that's a real challenge. Yeah, and that's been the hardest part.

00:18:13:20 - 00:18:36:00

But it's also once you start to see the results come through, this is hugely, hugely rewarding actually. I found. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And essentially by keeping that narrow, you keeping it simple, which is easy, easy to keep reinforcing with people. Yeah. And that was my thank you. So what, I'm a place I say you could go down the right road, right?

00:18:36:02 - 00:18:58:20

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, the phrase I used for that actually it's a chapter in one of my books is less is more. Yeah, I'll agree entirely less is more. Yeah. So I've been looking at your history actually. You spent some time with the US sales force has told me about what that was like and what you learned from that experience.

00:18:58:22 - 00:19:24:18

Yeah, I mean, that unique talk about life experience that was unique is incredible. So they still give you a background. The guy that started it well, so obviously people are aware of if the Navy SEALs, you know, widely considered the physically, mentally toughest group of people on the planet, the as you could imagine, the failure rate of entry into the SEALs is really high.

00:19:24:18 - 00:19:49:10

So over 90% failure rate. And you're already thinking about people that are already well-equipped to go into that environment. Over 90% fail to get in. So after many years of this and needing more recruits, they started to assemble different people like some of that, that leaders that had led some of the most successful teams in the sales of one of them.

00:19:49:12 - 00:20:18:08

They asked them to set up an academy and he set up an academy outside of the sales. And the role of the academy was to train people before they go for the entry exam, essentially into the SEALs and the people that went through his academy and his training. Those people had a 90% success rate. So a complete swing.

00:20:18:10 - 00:20:50:12

Wow. Not enormously successful. But then he started to open it up to other people. So how many? Five, six years ago now? I went and spent three days there. Right. And just you know, there's many different things that we covered. But one of the overarching ones, they have what they call a 20 x philosophy, and that is that they believe that we are all as human beings, 20 times more capable than we think we are.

00:20:50:14 - 00:21:17:11

Right. And they intend to prove it to you. So the by taking you way beyond what you think you can do. And so the first extreme example of this was with a plan. So the plan exercise, you can imagine you're holding your body weight in a muscle position. Yeah, Yeah. And they ask those how many, how long do you could hold up for successfully?

00:21:17:11 - 00:21:47:10

And the average answer was 1 to 2 minutes. Yeah, but they decided to make us do a plank for 30 minutes. That 30 minutes. 30 minute clock. Yeah. And I know that's a lot of experience. One or two minute lie. It's tough enough. Yeah. A 30 minute plank. And believe me, they intended to if you fail. So the rule was that you allowed to you know you can do essentially what you want but your knees can't hit the ground.

00:21:47:14 - 00:22:03:18

Right. You can take a leg off the floor, an arm off the floor. If you get tired, you can move, but you cannot let your knees hit the ground. And they intended, if your knees do hit the ground to make that the way they you know what they're going to do to you more painful than actually holding you plank position.

00:22:03:20 - 00:22:30:09

So it was a combination of they were either encouraging you or the pressure in you all to soak in your freezing cold walls, whatever they're doing to make you get through the 30 minutes. And I got through the 30 minutes. But what was really interesting was the first, I would say, and I'm guessing because there was no big clock on the wall, which is part of a part of the mental torture.

00:22:30:09 - 00:23:02:24

Bam. You don't know how long you've been there. I would say 8 to 10 minutes. It was tough. But up to that point, that was the hardest part of it. And after the the second so two thirds of it were that was much easier because my mind just got out of my way. Right, was what it was. So my body was capable, but my mind was the limiting factor because you can imagine what I was saying to myself 3 minutes into this.

00:23:03:02 - 00:23:37:11

Yeah, I can imagine the thoughts going through my mind. Right. And that was that was the hardest bit to deal with. It wasn't the physical pain and the heat. By the way, this is in San Diego's 36 or 37 degrees. So it was really hard on my hands was swollen because the ground is red hot. Yeah but and and if you if I then extrapolate all of the learnings across the three days, they essentially come back to that principle that the thing that gets in our way the most is our mind.

00:23:37:13 - 00:24:18:00

And it's about learning how to navigate through that, how to get out of your own way and from an individual point of view, but then also from a leadership point of view. And, you know, growth is uncomfortable and they they make you more uncomfortable than, you know, if you've been in any other environment. So, yeah, well, you know, and again, that resonates to me because I'm thinking that there are things discussion of that's a hive, you know, process of how to do it over the last few months that take me way out of my comfort zone and having to force yourself to get to get to where you want to be.

00:24:18:00 - 00:24:43:09

And hearing the parallels between those sorts of decisions and what you were going through physically. Yeah, the yourselves is it's crazy here. So I should emphasise, I mean, you coaching British transport. That's correct. Isn't that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah. Do you have something about that was facilitating work. We don't we don't need to name names, but of types of organisations, types of individuals you work with in sport.

00:24:43:11 - 00:25:08:22

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I've done a fair bit at work in football from, you know, individually players that play for England. You know, Premier League football works with clubs of that size and nature as well. Yeah, some more, you know, shorter interventions working with sort of academy level all the way to full suite, working with a first team, working with a coaching staff.

00:25:08:24 - 00:25:39:20

And again, it's the same process, you know, in terms of people understanding the people understanding the vision. It's a totally different environment. There's a lot more pressure, obviously. So I've done a lot of working in football individually, but I've also then worked so across different organisations all the way to working with the Great Britain Underwater Hockey team, obviously.

00:25:39:22 - 00:26:03:18

Underwater hockey, Yeah, which is incredible. And what an incredible sport, which was partly created in the Navy many years ago when essentially, you know, just just to occupy themselves. They created the game on the on the the floor, the seabed, you know, just in a poke around and, you know, just rather than just swimming in the water to entertain themselves.

00:26:03:18 - 00:26:31:02

And that's where the sport was born. And, you know, now it's the fully fledged World Cups, which I was very pleased to be part of, played a part in a world championships tournament. And again, yeah, fascinating sport. And I think, again, it's, you know, part of my role you don't it helps if you understand something about the sport that does help.

00:26:31:04 - 00:26:54:18

But when I went into underwater hockey, for example, I have no idea anything about the sport, but thanks. It's nice, isn't it? Very neat. Yeah. Which is why I enjoyed the opportunities. But I mean, it's. Yeah, but what I did understand was people and it's about helping people to get the best out of themselves and in that team environment.

00:26:54:18 - 00:27:24:09

And it's the same process is where the business. Yeah. So, so if I, if I were to ask you masthead what your top tips for business owners would be to get results, what what would they be? I know that that's that's a tough question to put there. Yeah well again, it's a big question, but I think firstly the first thing I would say is most businesses to perform at their best.

00:27:24:14 - 00:28:01:18

It's about getting the best out of that. People. And so firstly, if you're a business owner, investing in yourself is massive, right? But secondly, investing in your people as a business is massive because in my experience, the biggest limiting factor in a business is the mindset, firstly of the leadership team. Yeah, it's that that is the first limiting factor, but so helping to unlock that and what type of support is in place.

00:28:01:20 - 00:28:23:17

You know, I'm often surprised if how many businesses I go into and there's people that have come through the ranks done really well, but no long time got into really senior influential positions within a business. Yeah, I've had no formal training on leadership, on managing people and getting the best out of themselves and getting the best out of others.

00:28:23:19 - 00:28:53:21

Yeah, no formal training. They've just had their own experiences. So I think investing in people, if you invest in people, you're going to see the return and you know, companies on the stock that with. I work a lot in professional services. I work for, you know, we've a few recruitment companies as well. And the number the amount of money some firms will spend on recruiting people is, you know, to get the best talent in is huge.

00:28:53:23 - 00:29:14:06

But then once they're in, what do they do with them? And actually we talk about sport and this is one of the ones which totally perplexes me. If you look at some of the Premier League teams, look at how much money they're now spending to buy, some to go and identify and bring the talent in. And then the failure begins.

00:29:14:08 - 00:29:45:04

And the sometimes the simplest, most obvious decisions like paying X million for for, you know, a talented footballer to come into an organisation and then playing that person out of position just to something as simple as that can mean that you may be getting 30% less out of that talent and so I think invest in the people not just to get them in, but once they're in.

00:29:45:07 - 00:30:19:20

What's the the pathway that you're creating? Because if you want more out of them, you've got to invest more into them. And so that's the first thing I would suggest the most businesses, because I think most businesses perform as well as the people perform. Yeah, Well, Martin, it's been fascinating listening to the the what you do and the parallels that you can draw, which for you between the sports world and the business world, if I'm finished out of this podcast, want to get in touch with you, how would they do that?

00:30:19:22 - 00:30:43:06

Probably most active platform is linked to just tap my name into linked to and I think there's only one of me in terms of Martin Bob, all that actually came from. One of my good friends suggested that when I started my business said just, you know, use your full name and you won't be mistaken. So if you type that into links, then you'll find me.

00:30:43:08 - 00:30:57:05

Well, I can see how it works because that's the first thing I did when I was preparing for this podcast today was to give. I did came up soft. So really nice to hear this email saying Thank you very much for your time today. Thanks for joining us on the Day Will with our podcast. It's been a pleasure.

00:30:57:07 - 00:31:12:14

Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks.