Oliver Bakewell, Impact Director at GDI, discusses migration practices along the Ethiopia-Sudan border with Kiya Gezahegne, an ethnographic researcher from the University of Addis Ababa.
Kiya and Oliver have worked together on multiple projects exploring local migration realities and policy effects. In this episode, they draw interesting observations by setting Ethiopian and European contexts side by side.
Have a listen to their conversation to learn more!
About Kiya Gezahegne:
Kiya Gezahegne is an experienced feminist researcher and lecturer based at the Department of Social Anthropology, Addis Ababa University, Ethiopia. She has been involved in ethnographic research for over eight years on a range of migration related areas including experiences of Ethiopian migrants to and from the Middle East, migration management and livelihoods at the Ethiopia-Sudan border, interlinkages between migration and poverty in Ethiopia, as well as understanding migration and the labour market in Addis Ababa among others.
Find out more about the Global Development Institute:
Intro music Anna Banana by Eaters
Oliver Bakewell, Impact Director at GDI, discusses migration practices along the Ethiopia-Sudan border with Kiya Gezahegne, an ethnographic researcher from the University of Addis Ababa.
Kiya and Oliver have worked together on multiple projects exploring local migration realities and policy effects. In this episode, they draw interesting observations by setting Ethiopian and European contexts side by side.
Have a listen to their conversation to learn more!
About Kiya Gezahegne:
Kiya Gezahegne is an experienced feminist researcher and lecturer based at the Department of Social Anthropology, Addis Ababa University, Ethiopia. She has been involved in ethnographic research for over eight years on a range of migration related areas including experiences of Ethiopian migrants to and from the Middle East, migration management and livelihoods at the Ethiopia-Sudan border, interlinkages between migration and poverty in Ethiopia, as well as understanding migration and the labour market in Addis Ababa among others.
Find out more about the Global Development Institute:
Intro music Anna Banana by Eaters
Introduction [00:00:02] Welcome to the Global Development Institute podcast, based at the University of Manchester. We are Europe's largest research and teaching institute addressing poverty and inequality. Each episode will bring you the latest thinking, insights and debates in development studies.
Oliver Bakewell [00:00:26] So welcome to the GDI podcast. My name is Oliver Bakewell and I'm talking to you here from the University of Manchester. Well, I'm sitting in my office with Kiya Gezahegne. Kiya is visiting from the university of Addis Ababa, and I'm delighted that she has been able to be in Manchester for a couple of weeks now. She's been working with me on a project that was done in Ethiopia, at the Sudan border, where we did some work on migration management a few years ago, and then more recently on a project looking at the effects of European externalisation on migration policy. We've been doing a case study on Ethiopia. I say we, in the sense of, Kiya has actually been doing all the work on it because she's based there and she knows the stuff. And so, what I want to start this conversation with is to ask Kiya about how you got into being interested in migration issues. I know I've heard this story before and I think it definitely bears retelling.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:01:35] I think so many times already. I actually like to talk about these things, because you don't think about it that often. So I got into studying migration accidentally… I would say I was more interested in religious studies. So that's what I did my bachelor and my master’s on. And then right...
Oliver Bakewell [00:02:01] At the University of Addis Ababa?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:02:04] In Addis, yeah. So I was very much interested in how religion works for the everyday lives of Ethiopians because we are very religious communities. And then I ended up working as a research assistant. Oh, actually, we conducted research at that time for ODI, Overseas Development Institute, here in London, in the UK. So I was very young. I was telling you this last time, I was just 19, right, like right about to graduate from the university and I got a call from a colleague of mine, now a colleague of mine that was my advisor then. She was telling me, okay, Kia, do you want to engage in this research we have? And I told her no, because I have no idea how to do interviews. And I said I'm very new to such kind of research. And I actually told her I was sick. I had the flu and I could not work! And she's like 'you will be okay', you will get some pills and some medicine and then you will manage. So she literally dragged me home from work and we ended up going to the Ethiopian Sudan border, called Metemma, a very famous town for people around Ethiopia. I was born and raised in Addis. I've never been outside the city.
Oliver Bakewell [00:03:38] Never in your life?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:03:39] No, no. I mean, I think the furthest I went was to Debre Zeyit, which is not far away from Addis. And it was just for vacation. So, going to the border was something insane. And also something, like, exotic, adventurous for me. So, we were looking into adolescent lives basically in relation to education, violence, and abuse, because Metemma used to be and I think it still is one of the hotspot areas for HIV/AIDS, and so we were also looking into that. And so we travelled to Gondar and then to Metemma and I was so excited to see this town that we have been taught in classes because we had the Battle of Metemma, which was a very famous battle. We fought with the Sudanese, the now Sudanese. And also you hear people talking about it, there are a number of people… it's going to be hard to find relatives or someone, you know, who has travelled to Metemma, for trade or for any other reason. So I believed it was a very big town, almost similar to Addis. Because I was very much naive about what goes on outside. And so we were travelling through from Gondar to Metemma, and unfortunately all of us in the car didn't know the town or even the area. So we keep driving and for people who know the area, there is this road that runs from Addis to Khartoum. So it's not like it will end somewhere. And then, when the road ends it's usually like, okay, this is where everything stops. But that's not the case in Metemma so we keep driving and then there was a string of clothes between two poles, and we couldn't understand what that was. So, you know, I used to do that, but it to play was my friends, it looks like some jumping game we might play.
Oliver Bakewell [00:06:03] Like a skipping rope...
Kiya Gezahegne [00:06:09] Exactly! Like, okay, we thought it was just a custom point because we have passed through a number of them. And so we drove past it because we were not really aware of it. And, what was scary was, we were passing the Ethiopia / Sudan border, and we were literally into the Sudanese border. So there's this space between the two border points. It's a kind of a bridge. It's declared as a no man's land. But still, we have left officially the Ethiopian border point.
Oliver Bakewell [00:06:44] And you didn't know that?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:06:45] We didn't know. And people were calling us, shouting at us, and we're like 'ugh'. We thought, because people were always trying to say rude things and so and so on the road, we were like, oh, that's the same thing. Until a policeman, and I think it was a security force, we saw him waving and angry, it was not even a friendly wave. And we're like, okay, let's just stop and talk to them. And he just came and he asked us, okay, where are you trying to go? What are you doing?
‘We've tried to go to Metema’.
‘You've just passed the town’.
And yes, we passed a small town. I wouldn't even call it a town. It was a very small village for me, and it took us like five minutes to drive from one end to another, so I couldn't even comprehend that was Metemma. Because I thought Metemma was this big town. And he said 'you are now officially outside Ethiopia. You have crossed the border illegally' and it was a bit shocking and scary because you don't know what will happen, especially in Ethiopia, when you deal with security forces. You don't know what the consequences will be. So we didn't know if we are going to end up in jail or... So we got a bit scared, confused.
Fortunately, we had a senior researcher with us who was able to explain what was happening and they let us go at the end to go back to Metemma, which was basically not even a one minute drive. It was a really new experience for me to know what the border looks like. And then we started interviewing people in Metemma. They were talking about, oh, we always cross the border. They had very easy movement, mobility, compared to what I encountered. And I also spoke to some migrants because we had also migrant adolescents at the time indicating to us it was hard, and returnees coming from Sudan also usually stopover in the town, they keep telling me, ‘oh, it was a hard, challenging journey to go through’, because they have gone through the desert.
And the desert, in my mind, is something like the Saharan desert. As I have said, I'm a very city girl and I have no idea what they were talking about . Okay, so we have all seen Ethiopia. I didn't, I was not aware, and they kept saying ‘we have travelled 3 to 4 hours without water, without food, and so and so’ and I got interested in that. I think I was very young so I was staring also. So I was like okay, I can join them.
And so I've been there for a while now, so we talked to some people and brokers basically, and they're like, okay, you can join this or...
Oliver Bakewell [00:09:59] Brokers for migration?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:10:01] Illegal migration. So they're like, yeah, sure, we can pass, because illegal migration, it's a normal daily activity basically, it's not something to do that's hidden at that time. If you...
Oliver Bakewell [00:10:17] Did they try to charge you?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:10:19] No, they were like friends. They were actually excited to show me because, I mean, I'd been there for a while. You know, I think being a woman also helped a bit. They're very friendly, you know? So we've crossed the border with them, and it was just 30 minutes, I don't think it was even 30 minutes’ walk from the Ethiopian side to the Sudanese side, they're like, yeah, we are here. So we will now rest and then continue. Really? I thought we were going to have a hard time travelling for three hours, like, no, this is it. Like okay, this is easy.
And then we went to the town on the other side, and it was very scary to encounter even Sudanese residents because I thought something would happen to me because I don't have my documents with me. There is no identification that will signify I am Ethiopian and I'm here for work, and I didn't have the right to do research or work in Sudan. So I'm very much illegal in any sense. And so I'm jumping from one shop to another to hide from the police because (inaudible). It is very, it's difficult to even explain, and it gives me an idea of what the migrants were talking about. The feeling you get when you become illegal and the hardship you pass, you go through, basically. But this is very much in relation to your emotions rather than to other difficulties.
Oliver Bakewell [00:11:55] So it's really interesting to say that a lot of that hardship is coming from within. Because, you know, civilians are insecure.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:12:03] Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, that happened. Finally, we managed to go back to Metemma. And then, a few years later, I was able to go back, and it was easy, it felt like it was easy just to cross there and even further. And also I went to El-Gadarif still without documents, but I think I got used to the movement and also I became one of the Metemma people in one way or another after spending some time. So I didn't have the same reaction like I had before.
Oliver Bakewell [00:12:41] Yeah.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:12:42] Which was interesting looking into the fact that I was still illegal, but I didn't feel like one. And then I went to Khartoum later on. But that time it was actually through with a visa, with papers. And so, I got to speak to the Ethiopian migrants there, and it was, it was really interesting, how we define the legality and illegality and then how migrants define it differently and also how the border community defines it. And how people in, in this, centre of the countries like Khartoum or Addis look to migrants because I was there in Khartoum with a document, but walking around, people would still look at me to see if I was illegal because. I'm just there for work. So it was really interesting to understand the dynamics between the two countries. And so that's basically the story behind it.
Oliver Bakewell [00:13:57] It's very interesting, as you say that difference between the sort of legal, the formal legality, you know, moving with papers, and then there's the perception, your internal perception, of how you feel in relation to that. But then there's also what people around you think and how you're being seen. They're all different.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:14:23] Exactly. You know, because I think even with the lack of documentation, which basically makes you illegal, in the eyes of the states, once you get used to the border lives in the border communities, crossing the border is part of your daily life. It's not a big deal (inaudible). So it becomes just a part, like moving from one place to another, and the border becomes very much invisible in the process.
Oliver Bakewell [00:14:58] Yeah. I'm. I'm looking quizzical about the invisible (inaudible). I mean, you remind me of the work I did when I was doing my PhD and, which was a long time ago, on the Zambian/ Angola border. I've been fascinated with borders for quite a while. And part of that, I think, is because I grew up on this island where crossing the border meant going across water or getting aeroplanes. So the idea of a land border has always seemed mysterious. And I was interested in the movement between Zambia and Angola and the relationships across there, and I worked in the far northwest of Zambia and I could walk to the border. It wasn't like the main highway and at the time Angola was at war anyway, so it was effectively in many ways a closed space, but people were crossing all the time. And then this border I could see was a stream which could be crossed by a makeshift bridge people would put across, and they would go across with bicycles to go and try trade back and forth. And I could walk to that stream. Everybody knew that was the border. And that's one question decided. People know the borders are there and it matters. I wasn't as brave, but maybe in my case it would be foolish for me to go across and try and get in while Angola was at war. There was a war there I could have been... Not just about being arrested, but maybe worse things happening. So I didn't go across, but I could see that this border was... It mattered, and there was still people crossing all the time, but the legality of the crossing almost made no sense. There was no legal way to cross that border anyway at the time. And that got rid of the sense of being... That crossing the border is just part of people's lives and it's fundamental to people's lives. And so what you're sort of describing.... legality makes no sense and regularity, the idea of regular border crossing. This makes no sense in that context.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:17:18] Yeah. Because, I mean, I think what we define as legal or illegal is based on that border demarcation that we put as states. But for the people, as you said, the border moves along with them as the situation fits, actually. So for Ethiopians, for instance, they go up to a place called Medani, even Khartoum, even beyond. But once you question, okay, you don't have the right to be here, then they will tell you, oh, no, this used to be part of our kingdom, or they come with this explanation and, you know, the border can be pushed beyond what is now considered the Ethiopia/Sudan border. The same on the other side, they would say, oh, no, no, we've been living up to (inaudible) or within Ethiopia. That's the case up to Genda Wuha - that used to be a part of Sudan. And they want to give you this, etymology of the names, the city names, the town names. Telling you 'this is how it's linked to our ancestors'. So they give you, whether it's justified or not, they give you narrative stuff that gives them that right to be there. So they're not considered as illegal as the state puts it, because a border can be actually pushed and it has been pushed back and forth across time. So they're using that narrative to justify their presence and to say, no, they're not illegal. We have actually a right to be here. Which also makes it very interesting about borders, that they're not static. They're not fixed as nations believe.
Oliver Bakewell [00:19:09] Yeah, that's really interesting and again I'm thinking back to the Zambia / Angola border, which is probably the one I know best. Because what was happening there wasn't so much that people were making the claim, but they recognised that with that stream you cross it and you're in Angola, but that doesn't change your belonging party because you're still in the land of the Lunda chieftainship, which was the people there. And that was actually split. So there was the senior chief there (inaudible) on the Zambian side, also one on the Angolan side, but people could move across. And there wasn't any question of... You knew if you were in Angola or Zambia, yeah, but at the same time you could... you have to claim the right to be there. And that wasn't an issue. And the chiefs were very happy to have that. They weren't creating a problem with that. So it's a different sort of set of ways of making the claim to be there. But yeah it's far away from this idea of people moving with borders with papers across fixed lines.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:20:20] Exactly. You know, and also, I mean, it becomes a problem usually when resources are involved, we still have a conflict sort of happening across an old Ethiopia / Sudan border, but what was interesting for me is the mobility has been there for a long time. The interaction has been there for a long time, but there is still conflict. And I remember the first time I went there, you would hear gunshots. And then everyone's asking 'what's happening?'. I'm still a little insecure being far away from home and I do think 'oh, no, people are just checking if the guns work'. Like...For what? So, (inaudible) you never know. I mean, there might be something happening and so they're just preparing themselves. After a while, you will see the community leaving as if nothing happened. So they move on. So the conflict even that happens as we usually think when the borders are moving in such a way, it is there but it's not that significant in their lives, and is instinctively related to resources. So the mobility still continues, the movement still continues. It doesn't stop because it's basically the centre of their existence.
Oliver Bakewell [00:21:48] The mobility.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:21:49] Yes. So it's something you sanction. So people would ask, okay, if everyone claims their border is here and there, then there's definitely conflicts coming. But people also manage conflict at the end of the day and continue the interaction, continue the movement. Which migrants also use to their advantage.
Oliver Bakewell [00:22:13] And when you say migrants?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:22:15] People come like me, coming from other parts of the country who want to cross to Sudan or somewhere else, because if that already exists within the country, along the border, then it makes it also easy for you to cross it. But as I say, it's a different type of crossing. And it gives different meaning to the individuals.
Oliver Bakewell [00:22:37] Yeah. And then maybe related to the project we're doing at the moment on this, on the effects of externalisation, the way that there's a lot of intervention across many parts of Africa about borders and the idea that borders should be managed, human migration should be managed, often with an intention to sort of... Money being pushed in from the European Union and from the UK and other countries to put in place measures, driven by a concern about people ending up in Europe as irregular migrants. So there's a lot of emphasis on doing stuff at borders and border management. And I think what you're saying sort of echoes with my sense of things, it's trying to manage those borders in a way that matches the imagination of (inaudible) - you've got a nice fixed line. People come there with their papers and their visas and they get stamped and they go through. And the states know exactly whose crossing... That is so far from what is going on, but also to try to put that in place... in that last conversation about the countries, that would potentially exacerbate conflict, and it certainly makes a huge problem for people's lives and livelihoods because it puts up this massive barrier to their movement.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:24:10] I mean, that means your daily movement is checked. Particularly for the border communities, who basically might cross the border more than once or twice a day. And it also that means it's affecting the economy on both sides, not on one side, but also one thing I think most states, including the EU is missing, is that you can't stop people from moving by closing the border. Because Ethiopia and Sudan share around one 1600km of border, including South Sudan, if I'm not mistaken.
Oliver Bakewell [00:24:52] It's a long border.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:24:53] It's a long border...
Oliver Bakewell [00:24:58] The major crossing point...
Kiya Gezahegne [00:25:00] One of the major crossing points, as I've told you, is a very small area to cover.
Oliver Bakewell [00:25:07] With a bit of string across it.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:25:10] With a bit of string across it. So even if you close that border, I mean I will find a way to cross using a place that's not controlled, that's not secured. So investing that much on border control might not be the effective way. But facilitating this is mentioned in the global contract - safe mobility. Or an inability, because states also need to have a way to understand who is leaving and who's coming in, because we are talking about a region which is also insecure. So I can understand the emphasis that's being given to security. But also usually when you talk about border management, we're talking about closing the borders.
Oliver Bakewell [00:25:58] Yeah.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:25:59] And by doing that, you're not only leaving out the migrants, but also you're making it difficult for the border community. So we need to find a way to accommodate the mobility that exists on a daily basis, but also make it easy... Maybe not easy, but make it safe for the migrants also to cross the borders.
Oliver Bakewell [00:26:25] To some extent, you need to incentivise people to use crossings, because if it's too hard, you'll just go round.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:26:33] And one of the things that I think the Sudanese government did well was at the time, before the conflict happened in Sudan, was to allow tourist visas to Ethiopians. Which for me was also a good initiative in a way that most of the migrants used to just cross the border illegally, through what is called the deserts. Which is very risky. And now when I was there, it was in between from 2017 to, more or less to, 2020, I've been following on what's happening and we have seen a number of especially female migrants going for visas so that they can easily get to Khartoum without dealing with brokers, without dealing with anyone, and only taking a bus that's available from Addis to Khartoum. Which is safe. And I think that we know that these are not tourists, obviously. And I think I remember the last time we were talking about the yellow plastic bags, which has been very much a marker for illegal, particularly female migrants, because you grab your things and you don't have luggage or a bag.
Oliver Bakewell [00:27:57] You know, their suitcase.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:27:58] Yeah, exactly. And then you travel and it's obvious that you're not a tourist. However, you have the documentation. So, there is no way the Sudanese government or the Sudanese border control will not allow you in. And they also put in place when I was there in 2017, associations, youth associations, to facilitate the process for these migrants because they don't know what's happening, just like me. It's very confusing to be at the border. You don't know where you need to cross, what you need to do. And so there was an association that was there to help them for free. So such kind of management will work, as I said, not closing the border and saying, no, you cannot pass. But since then some some interventions were implemented, particularly focusing on stopping migrants. The Suluk's have...it was difficult for the Saluks to get into...
Oliver Bakewell [00:29:04] So the Saluks...?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:29:06] The seasonal labourers that travel from Ethiopia to Sudan to work on the plantations, big plantations.
Oliver Bakewell [00:29:16] That's a big movement. Is it 80,000 or more...?
Kiya Gezahegne [00:29:21] It's, I mean, the number is not so startling because most of them have crossed the border on a daily basis unregistered. So it's difficult to say, oh, this many people easily leave the country. But it has been there for a long time. And it has also been a source of income for many young men who don't want to stay in Sudan, they just go there to work for 2 or 3 months, even later sometimes, and then go back home. They fund their education sometimes or support their families. And this has been working until the border control became a bit strict, which means they cannot cross the border because they are not from Metemma, they come from different parts of Ethiopia. So they might be accused of being migrants.
Oliver Bakewell [00:30:12] By saying migrants, that's a term used for people who are travelling to try to get to Sudan and Libya, and across the Mediterranean.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:30:23] So those people are affected in such movement. There are women who live in Metemma, that have businesses in Gallabat, on the other side of the border. And it's the same for them.
Oliver Bakewell [00:30:39] Their businesses are being undermined.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:30:41] Exactly. And also, I mean, if you have to go through border control every day for, say, let's say for an hour, or you have to verify who you are and so and so, I wouldn't be bothered to cross. So I've seen a number of these women just establishing their business in Metemma and saying, okay, let the Sudanese come. We are not going to go to Gallabat because it's becoming hectic these days. And in a way, it might seem, it's an advantage to the Ethiopian government because the businesses are here. But the Sudanese also lack the incentive to come across the border to Ethiopia. So you don't have that many customers come in because the border is also closed on the other side. So, I mean, the town basically lacks the engagement there was before, which was huge. And I remember I was surprised to find I think it was more than 12 banks in a very tiny town. And banks, I don't even find in my neighbourhood in Addis. So it was really interesting and that shows you what kind of economic engagement exists in that world. And so that's basically being undermined. The same with export import traders that also exist along the border. So you're making life harder basically for everyone, when you're only trying to alter the border for migrants' sake.
Oliver Bakewell [00:32:21] I mean, I think there's to some extent a familiar story talking in the UK at the moment because we have been making life harder for migrants, but also for everyone who wants to get into the rest of Europe.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:32:34] Yes.
Oliver Bakewell [00:32:36] Yeah, there are definitely some echoes there with what you were saying about the impact, the unintended consequences, or hopefully unintended, on businesses and people's livelihoods. It's really and I mean, it's fascinating to see the way that there's a lot of parallels, but also there's this question, I'm not sure if we will have time to go into it, but there's some balance to be had because states need to know about who's coming and going. Especially in an insecure environment where there are real, real threats. But at the same time, trying to know too much...
Kiya Gezahegne [00:33:18] Mmm
Oliver Bakewell [00:33:19] ...creates this huge, huge set of barriers. Yeah, it's trying to find that balance because so much of the movement is just going on. Yeah. And it's not necessarily... It's going within a set of institutions that aren't necessarily formal, but you know, when it's local people moving somewhere you have to find a way to let that just happen. And I'm not sure, certainly, with the various steps that have been taken to formalise borders, we've got any mechanism for that.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:33:52] We can organise, not organise, but at least create a means or a mechanism for people to be legally, legally in the sense, as the state considers it.
Oliver Bakewell [00:34:07] Yeah.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:34:09] I can give you the example of migrants travelling to the Middle East from Ethiopia, and I remember asking them questions and they would tell me, oh, I left the country legally. And then like, what do you mean by legally? Like, we used brokers, which were different from the ones I was mentioning in Metemma, these are called PEAs.
Oliver Bakewell [00:34:34] Right. Yes.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:34:36] So they aren't actually legal, they don't have the documents. Most of them were not registered. And so they were basically in progress, organised into agencies. (Inaudible) 'you know, I used brokers so I am legal'. And they get the visa and everything. They fly to the Middle East so that for them is a legal way. But (inaudible).
Oliver Bakewell [00:35:10] They have a genuine visa.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:35:12] ‘We have a genuine visa’.
Oliver Bakewell [00:35:14] But the grounds on which they got their visa...
Kiya Gezahegne [00:35:18] Exactly. It's is not through the legal mechanism. And also the government has no way to trace these migrants because they are employed in (inaudible) and the embassies in the Middle East countries are not also aware of who is coming in and is leaving, which also made it difficult when we had the deportations and mass deportations from Saudi, because we don't have documents of the Ethiopian migrants, most of the Ethiopian migrants living in Saudi Arabia. So, rather than, well, what the Ethiopian government did after 2013, when we had this mass deportation from Saudi Arabia, was to register all this with agencies. And it actually banned the movement in for a while, which was not a good move personally because that also pushed people to use other mechanisms, which is very much illegal.
Oliver Bakewell [00:36:21] It puts them in even more danger.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:36:23] Exactly like travelling through Somalia, Djibouti, across to Yemen, which was at that time in war. Which was a very dangerous route to take. And women used to take that, which was not the case before. But then, one of the good interventions by the government later on was to register all these agencies legally and also to train all the inflow, all these migrants in healthcare or any other kind of employment they were going to be engaged in in the Middle East. So for me, if you have such kind of formal mechanisms for people to leave, I wouldn't dare to contact brokers because it's expensive.
Oliver Bakewell [00:37:09] Yeah.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:37:11] So why would I take brokers? Why would I go through all that risk? When I have the formal means. But sometimes, I mean, it's also difficult because the brokers also change their mechanisms where you go for free, and then you pay them later on. So for people who cannot afford even to go through the formal mechanism going for free sounds very much...
Oliver Bakewell [00:37:36] Tempting, but it does have a cost later.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:37:39] Exactly. And having that also open conversation, saying no, because most of the discussions we have in relation to illegal migration is linked to all these risks that you are facing, but they don't tend to tell you how the brokers work. So if you're going to tell me 'you will be sexually assaulted, you will be facing hunger, and this and that risk while you're out on the journey', I mean, that's something I can take on if I'm tough. People even take contraceptives, for instance, just thinking that they might be sexually abused. So they get themselves ready for such kind of challenges, but telling them the whole story of how the brokers operate to also what happens after you get to your destination, like Sudan or the Middle East, where it's not convenient and comfortable for many...Having the whole picture portrayed in those discussions is very much helpful because otherwise, if you're just picking on some aspects of it, your either lying...Because I've seen so many people making it to these country's, either you're lying or it's just propaganda to keep me in the country. So having that open, honest conversation on what happens and also saying, oh, you also have this advantage of travelling to these countries because you earn this money…but do it formally.
Oliver Bakewell [00:39:11] You should have an alternative.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:39:13] Exactly. But also making the formal mechanism very much accessible to the majority and making it a bit easier. Well, I think that's where the states should be investing in. And that will also allow them to know who's leaving, and for what. And also, they can track their own citizens in the different countries.
Oliver Bakewell [00:39:39] I think it's a whole other conversation probably to have, maybe not now, about how policies, how these policies get framed and how people need to have a much more open discussion about the benefits for migrants, but also the benefits for the countries. And rather, we seem to be starting so often with a perspective, 'this is what migration should look like, this is what migrants look like', and very little understanding of the subtleties of the particular contexts. And to some extent, I think that's one of the messages we're coming out with in this project, the fact that European ideas about what safe, orderly, regular migration looks like is going to be very different from what's in the best interest of Ethiopia and many people within Ethiopia. And that takes you to a whole other discussion, which I think we should probably not try and pursue now. And maybe we have to do that another time.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:40:49] I think in relation to that, maybe the starting point would be to be honest about the number of migrants that are coming to Europe. I think that should be the starting point of...
Oliver Bakewell [00:41:02] ... From ethiopia...
Kiya Gezahegne [00:41:04] Exactly. I mean, I've been working on migration from Ethiopia to Europe, and that includes Eritreans and Somalis, and it's very much insignificant compared to the mobility we have within the continent. So starting from the statistics, which are very much overwhelming, when it's given from this side of the world, it is taken as a crisis, as I usually put it. I think that's where the starting point should be in that discussion, in that conversation, and also as you have said, imagining what the migrant looks like. This can come in different shapes, sizes, colours and so on. And so I think that should also be the same kind of conversation because, usually you take refugees, migrants, asylum seekers to look like me... mostly from the continent, and so there's this different treatment you get when there are refugees from other parts. Yeah. Of let's say Europe for instance.
Oliver Bakewell [00:42:13] Very much so.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:42:14] So I think we don't want this very uncomfortable discussion with like the treatment Ukrainians, for instance, received. Syrians have received before. Yes, I understand the situation now, but, people coming from Eritrea have been running have been forced to leave the country. They are not economic migrants compared to Ethiopians, for instance. But still, because of this imagination of what refugees look like, the treatment is very much biased. So I think these also are the conversations that we need to start talking about and then see, okay, what do the governments in the original countries want?
Oliver Bakewell [00:43:01] I think that's one of the issues from a European perspective. We look at the big issue of African migration as Africans moving to Europe. And then just looking at statistics like... It clearly is not the big issue. And then when you look at people's lives and livelihoods, you say, well, actually it's the regional movement and its the informal... It's all these other movements that are so fundamental. That's what should be the focus for making sure that isn't interrupted. And dealing with the people moving to Europe, which is such a small number, in relative terms, maybe that has to come much lower down the priorities.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:43:41] Yeah. And I mean, if you work on mobility within the continent, I don't think people would be willing to come to Europe. I don't think I would want to stay in this cold weather. When I have the sun for all the months! So just. Yeah. Because if you have a comfortable life, comfortable in a way, which might not be, equivalent to the life you have here in Europe, but comfortable enough to keep you going within the continent, I really don't believe most even refugees want to leave. So I think if we want to make a change, it has to actually be more on the mobility within the continent than outside.
Oliver Bakewell [00:44:35] I mean, to my mind the ability to move is actually really important for people's well-being, and enable people to move around and often they will want to move within much more limited areas than we sometimes imagine. But to enable people to do that, to live out their lives, I think is, yeah, that's what we should be aiming for maybe. And certainly with that, speaking from the Global Development Institute, I think when we think about from my perspective, everything about development, it's about improving opportunities. And the opportunity to move around is an important part of that. But it sits alongside many other things.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:45:20] Sure.
Oliver Bakewell [00:45:20] I think we we should stop there. It's been a great pleasure talking to you Kiya, and it's been a great pleasure having you here visiting in Manchester.
Kiya Gezahegne [00:45:30] Thank you for having me.
Oliver Bakewell [00:45:32] I hope we get another chance to talk, but I think we wrapped up there, so that's the end of this edition of the GDI podcast, and I look forward to another conversation another day. Thank you.