Students in conversation with Nadia Naser-Najjab: Palestine and decolonisation Artwork

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Students in conversation with Nadia Naser-Najjab: Palestine and decolonisation

March 20, 2025 • Global Development Institute

GDI students Ellen Logan and Alex Pettifer interview Dr Nadia Naser-Najjab (University of Exeter), covering the discipline of Palestine Studies, how Israel-Palestine can advance our understanding of broader issues surrounding decolonisation, and how people can enrich their understanding of Palestinian histories.

Details of resources mentioned in the episode are accessible on our blog: https://blog.gdi.manchester.ac.uk/recommended-resources-on-palestine-and-decolonisation/

Find out more about the Global Development Institute:

Intro music Anna Banana by Eaters

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Welcome to the Global Development Institute podcast. Based at the University of Manchester, we're Europe's largest research and teaching institute addressing poverty and inequality. Each episode, we'll bring you the latest thinking, insights, and debate in development study.

Speaker 2 [00:00:31] Okay, hi everyone. Welcome to the GDI podcast. My name is Ellen. I'm a master's student at GDI studying an MSc in development, global development, and I'm joined here by Alex, who I'll ask to introduce himself in a moment. And today we're really excited because we're going to be speaking with the wonderful Nadia Naser-Najjab. Nadia is the program director of Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter. And Nadia is Palestinian herself. She's previously worked at Birzeit University in the West Bank and has worked on academic research and diplomacy initiatives related to Palestine in Israel for many, many years. And we're interviewing Nadia today in advance of a guest lecture that Nadia will be giving to students at the University of Manchester on the 23rd of April. So she'll be welcomed onto campus and she's gonna be. delivering a guest lecture as part of the GDI lecture series, and she's going to be discussing the Gaza war, and in particular, the historical context of October 7th and the subsequent Gaza war, which has killed thousands and thousands of Palestinians and has led to what we've seen as a genocide as being investigated as a genocide by the international criminal courts and the courts of justice. And we as students feel it's really important to be discussing these types of issues. So Alex and I are part of a student group called GDI Students for Palestine. And we're looking to really raise awareness about what's going on in Palestine, in Gaza, in the occupied West Bank, and the occupation of Palestine, which has been going on for 75 years, as well as the genocide of the past 18 months. And we're doing this because the GDI, the Global Development Institute, is an institute that markets itself as where critical thinking meets social justice. And we really feel very strongly that the issue of Palestine is one of the most pressing areas of concern when it comes to social justice. So we're really, really delighted to be working with Palestinian academics, such as Nadia, to be addressing some of the issues that are kind of really, really exemplified the problems of what is going on with Palestine and Palestine and Israel, including issues related to occupation, decolonization, settler, colonialism. of which Nadia will be discussing with us today. As I said, I'm with my lovely colleague, Alex. So Alex, do you wanna give us a little introduction to yourself?

Speaker 3 [00:03:06] Hi there, I'm Alex Pettifer. I'm also a master's student of global development at the University of Manchester. And I also lived in Palestine in the summer of 2022 and became captivated by the country and the Palestinian cause and also horrified by the atrocities occurring. So I'm very much looking forward to an ideas discussion today.

Speaker 2 [00:03:29] Thanks, Alex. And just like Alex, I've also lived in Palestine. In 2015, I lived in Ramallah and worked at Birzeit University like Nadia for three months. And like Alex said, I became completely enamored with the people of Palestine, some of the most generous, kind people that I've ever met, and some of the most resilient as well. And also completely shocked and horrified by what I witnessed whilst living out in Palestine. the occupation, the daily dehumanization and humiliation that Palestinians go through, the way that the occupation impacts access to education, access to healthcare, access to roads. And it became completely clear to me that what I was seeing was an apartheid system. And it's something that we will be discussing with Nadia today in our podcast and really want to. continue to have these types of conversations on campus within an academic context, outside of academia as well. This is the start of the conversation that we hope will continue to be had within the GDI, which is about difficult conversations relating to social justice, but in particular, it's about the role that students can play and academics can play in tackling, pressing social justice issues as they are happening, not looking back and saying, if only we had said something at the time. So we're delighted to have Nadia here on the podcast, and we will start with a bit of an introduction. So Nadia, we're really delighted to have you here with us. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. And if you're happy, we would love for you to just give a little bit of an introduction to yourself, a bit of background in terms of your academic background and personal background. So Nadia, over to you.

Speaker 4 [00:05:13] Thank you very much, Ellen. Thank you, Alex. And thank you for having me on your podcast to discuss this timely topic. Yeah, I joined the University of Exeter in 2013. Before that, I was an assistant professor at Birzeit University in Palestine. I studied on my undergraduate at Birzeit University as well. And I lived under the... military occupation, and then I, of course, lived after Oslo. So my research is based on a first-hand experience and also from the real world, let's say, of living under the occupation and under colonization. And I discussed in my research, I focused on, for example, and the post Oslo grassroot initiatives between Palestinians and Israelis under the program called People to People. So my book, Dialog in Palestine is a critical of this program. And also my recent book is how Palestinians endured COVID-19 and lived it. under settler colonialism, it's a wide variety. I also researched education under colonization, most importantly, the meaning of resistance and how people change their forms of resistance given the changes on the ground.

Speaker 2 [00:07:01] Thank you Nadia. Thank you for that overview. The things that you were talking about, for me, it really resonates because when you go and you work in the West Bank or live or spend any any kind of time, it's impossible to ignore the issues that you've just raised there. It's impossible to ignore the impact of the occupation, what we're seeing as settler colonialism. And I think it's a conversation that is still not being addressed enough within the UK, particularly within an academic and higher education context. So thank you so much for giving us that kind of overview there. And I think I'd really like to start off the conversation from this higher education context. As you said, you've worked at Berzeit University in the West Bank and you've been at Exeter for many years now. What we are seeing is very few UK universities exploring Palestine from an academic or non-academic context, including from our perspective as development students, from development studies perspective. So why is it that you think Palestine studies is still more rare in UK university context? And why do you think that is? And what actually do you think that can offer as an academic you know, case study or example when it comes to issues of social justice and settler colonialism.

Speaker 4 [00:08:32] Yeah, look, from my experience, my own experience and observation, I think Palestine is now a concern for many disciplines, not only to the Middle East studies or conflict resolution or peace studies. It became a concern for many departments. Yes, maybe very few, they have their own. Palestine studies departments like in the UK, besides Exeter, it's Cambridge and Oxford, but around the world it's gaining momentum, I would say. However, I believe that many departments offer a module or even a class on Palestine when they discuss regional and international issues. I think, and especially after, maybe you noticed this after October 7, how universities became really engaged with Palestine, concerned about what is happening in Palestine. Palestine studies engage with a variety of theories, by the way, including settler colonialism, but it engages with post-colonialism, decolonization, decolonial feminist theory. ethnography, queer theories, resistance, along with transnational movements, they seek to challenge and undermine colonial power, powers, inequality, racism, neoliberalism. So I think Palestine is at the center of many theories and also many disciplines, like developmental. development studies. It's interdisciplinary. It operates across multiple levels and incorporate diverse agendas and priorities, including cultural, economic, politics. No, I think Palestine is present in all of these disciplines and many departments. Of course, this is besides Palestine is a priority for protesters on university campuses and city streets across the world. Palestinians tell their stories, their narrative that is shared with activities all over in connection with other decolonial struggle. So, what is also distinguished about Palestine studies is that it's linked to activism. It's linked to action-based. So maybe you have noticed during encampments, for example, students used to invite academics, activists to talk to them to explain the situation from different perspectives and on different themes. I myself, since by the way October 7, me and my colleagues have been on high demand. We've been invited to give talks on wide variety of topics and in different departments. Lately, for example, I gave a talk or a lecture to students of theology, also to schools. We have been invited to give lectures in schools here in Exeter. So people want to know. Yes, there isn't a separate department of Palestine, but it is a study, it is research. in different departments and engaged with different theories. What I also wanted to point to here is that Palestinian resistance since the mid 70s was always part of an international movement that sought to challenge colonialism and establish an alternative to the international economic order. So this is not new. I mean. always been concerned for the international community and the regional as well, of course. So I think Palestine can make important contribution to wide variety of disciplines. This is my opinion and this is from what I see.

Speaker 3 [00:13:22] That's great, Nadia. Thank you. I completely agree that Palestine is at the heart of so many different disciplines and issues, and it's great to hear what you as academics have been doing to help push these alternative narratives. I was wondering from a student perspective, how can we decolonize higher education and the narrative surrounding these topics? How can student body support this alongside academics?

Speaker 4 [00:13:49] Okay, thank you, Alex. This is an excellent question. There's an ongoing debate about the decolonization of education among academics and students that addresses many aspects of the higher education system, including knowledge production, teaching, learning, and research tools, the meaning of diversity, curriculum design, and the dynamics of inclusion and exclusion in higher education settings. In my own work, I've seen how it touches on a number of questions that are vital to learning and teaching in higher education institutions, including how can post-colonial theories help to challenge universality of knowledge, the universality of knowledge, and contribute to critical analysis of the contemporary impact of colonialism. How do power relations affect knowledge and learning, and how should we think about and practice resistance and work towards decolonization? In the academic context, the structure and arrangements of Western disciplines often undermines Native epistemologies and imposes Western knowledge and interpretation, including that of the need to. You know, the Mori scholar, Linda Smith, and I agree with her. She says, and let me quote her here, when indigenous people become the researchers and not merely the researched, the activity of research is transformed. Questions are framed differently. Priorities are ranked differently. problems are defined differently. people participate on different terms, end of quote. He also explains how the negation of indigenous views of history is a critical part of assessing colonial ideology. This is because the Western academia often regard that the indigenous and the native knowledge as primitive, incorrect. I agree with her on that. So I think therefore there's a lot of work to be done. You know, after October. there was threat to academic freedom of speech. And this, of course, suppressed the native narratives. because it was constrained with, first of all, the government's foreign policy, the IHRA definition, the PREVENT program. All of that was, this was the counter-argument, if you like, of the universities. When... When Palestinians during that period, especially last year, tried to tell their narrative, tried to convince the university there's something wrong going on, there's a genocide against people there and we need to speak about it. So this was the constraint. This was how, let's say that the British government that imposed it also and unfortunately on higher higher education institutions, it tried to silence academic freedom. I mean, you talk to researchers, you talk to academics who have done extensive research on the historical context of all what is going on. Look, the University of Exeter in general was receptive. The vice chancellor was accessible. She listened to experts and expertise. But as I said, the problem is the government, the foreign policy, they have certain guidelines that were handed to the higher education institutions. And I remember, for example, when Rishi Sunak invited vice chancellors. to me to discuss the protection of the Jewish communities in campuses. Rishi Sunak, for example, he invited representatives of the Jewish community, but not the Palestinians. So they were excluded. And even recently now, when I hear the discourse about we need to protect Jewish people in campuses. because there were waves of anti-Semitism. But I didn't hear anyone talk about, for example, Islamophobic phobia or anti-Palestinianism, nothing about that. So, I mean, there are so many issues that we need to engage in in order the decolonization of knowledge is not only about research and academia. the university staff and academics need, they need to question if and how they are implicated of what is happening in Palestine. So, for example, when we talk about BDS and divesting from any corporations that is involved with military, this is not random. You know, when we call for UK academic boycott of Israeli universities. It is because these universities, the Israeli universities, are involved in developing weapons. For example, the Dahya doctrine, which deliberately targets civilians. It was developed in Tel Aviv University. So that's the reason. I mean, this is why we feel that the higher education institutions should pay attention to this should listen to experts. So it is also about the structure of power in these universities. They need to speak to experts, see how they can decolonize, not only allow freedom of speech, but the system itself, the structure of colonization. if the university is complicit with corporations. involved in producing weapons, then this is not going towards decolonization. You know what I mean? So especially the higher education institutions, they should look at what Israel has done to higher education institutions in Gaza, how they destroyed them. how they killed teachers, students, not only higher education schools as well. I mean, this is not about providing an evidence for that. I think you all know how, for example, in January 2025. It was in 2025, I think. They posted pictures, soldiers posted pictures of themselves using explosives to destroy Al-Israa University in the south of the Strip. So it's, there's no need to provide evidence. Also, the ICJ already criminalized these actions and these acts. They should be taken into consideration. not only by higher education institutions, but also by the government itself.

Speaker 2 [00:22:18] Absolutely. Thank you so much, Nadia. There's, I mean, there's so much there to really address. And I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head about what's the problem within the kind of academic and higher education context and the fact that again, it can't be seen in isolation from the policies that our government are pursuing right now. And I think, again, bringing it back to our kind of context in the University of Manchester, this is one of reasons that we wanted to be focusing. on Palestine and tackling these issues from within the academic context because as you said there are examples where there are academics who are working actively with native and indigenous communities to be addressing these issues.

Speaker 4 [00:23:03] And also, if I may, I mean, there is no, we need an environment for academic freedom and freedom of speech. Because there are many ways that has been used to silence those academics and students and, you know, the pro-Palestinian community, including risking revoking their visas, for example. So we need a guarantee that this will not affect the lives of these academics and students if they practice their right to practice freedom of speech and academic freedom.

Speaker 2 [00:23:55] Absolutely and I'm sure you'll have seen I think in the news this week a Palestinian in the US has been threatened with visa being revoked for participation in peaceful protests on university campuses in the US and as you said this is something that we are seeing increasingly across campuses as part of the resistance as a part of the international solidarity movement with we are seeing students being sometimes very brutally. suppressed as well as academics who are standing in solidarity with those students. In the US, there's been, you know, a lot of that recently. But we're also seeing this in the UK. And I think from again, from a UK context, I think a lot of people are unaware of the suppression, as you said, the suppression on campus and the limitations on freedom of speeches. And this something that you know. we as students have found very concerning. Our university expressed solidarity with Ukraine. We have been asking for an expression of solidarity and support with the Gaza genocide and we have been met with silence, which is one of the reasons that we've been taking the action that we have been to work with academics and our academic department to try and connect with voices of people who have faced this occupation, this brutality, first hand. people like yourself, we're also in the process of trying to establish a partnership, an academic partnership with the University of Birzeit, because the University of Manchester has a partnership with Tel Aviv University. And as you rightly pointed out, there is a complicity involved when you are working with a university in Israel that is supporting the state and that is supporting the military and the work that they are doing to continue to dehumanize and occupy the people of Palestine and that's involvement cannot be ignored, and the role that UK universities play cannot be ignored. It's not just as simple as an academic partnership. As you said, this is so much more than that. It's supporting a state that is under international law recognized to be breaking international law and occupying an entire people. And that was even before what we have seen with the genocide in the past 18 months. So again, I think for any of the students or academics that might be listening to this podcast, I really hope that what you've been talking about just now will be interpreted as a bit of a rally and cry for the importance of protecting academic freedom and standing up for social justice issues in real time. It's not good enough to do it five years later when people are taken to the international criminal courts. People need to stand up and express their solidarity now. And so I'd be really interested.

Speaker 4 [00:26:44] And another thing, you know, the problem is that this anti-Semitism is weaponized to silence any narrative contrary to the Zionist narrative, although what I want people to pay attention to is that the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism is not accepted not only by pro-Palestinians and Palestinians. by Jews themselves. And there has been the Jerusalem declaration as an alternative to IHRA definition. They disagreed with the definition of anti-Semitism, the international one. And therefore they objected and they thought that it does interfere with freedom of speech. Also, another point is that the pro-Palestinian community includes. We have Jewish allies who work with us, who disagree with what is going on in Palestine, with the genocide, they fight the genocide, they disagree with the repressive policies. So this is not about anti-Semitism, it is about human values, it is about equality, it is about justice. That's how we should push forward our narrative.

Speaker 2 [00:28:18] Absolutely, and I'm sure many people saw the Oscar speech for the win for No Other Land, the documentary about the occupation of Misafir Yatta, and in the speech, you know, the Israeli director said exactly that the liberation of the people of Palestine and the Jewish community goes hand in hand. You know, we cannot have freedom for one. while suppressing or oppressing another people. It doesn't work like that.

Speaker 4 [00:28:50] Thank you.

Speaker 2 [00:28:51] and freedom and protection and liberation for Palestinian and Jews alike across the world is a shared goal and should be a shared goal. And as you said, the weaponization of antisemitism is a major problem on campus and Jewish communities are shouting at the top of their lungs in the media in kind of campaigns and activist communities on university campuses that they do not want their identity, their religion. to be used to uphold an oppressive regime. And I think, as you said, it's a really important thing to remind everybody that supporting Palestine is in no way about harming Jewish communities. It goes together, resistance and protection for everybody should go hand in hand. So I think it's a really important point that you raised there, Nadia. So thank you. Thank you so much for that. I think you also mentioned, and something that I think is really important to highlight, the dehumanization of the people of Palestine. And I'd be really interested to hear a little bit about your thoughts on that. You kind of touched on it in your previous point. But how is it that you feel students like ourselves, students like myself and Alex and our colleagues, can work to try to unpick and really remove this kind of understanding Um that we see in the media that dehumanizes Palestinians. We see numbers, thousands of Palestinians have died. We see language of have died rather than were killed. You know, this kind of normalization of language that reduces Palestinians to numbers, not people. How do you think we as students can try to tackle this issue?

Speaker 4 [00:30:36] Yes, a very good question. Look, I mean, colonial powers, this is part of the project to dehumanize the others. That's why when Zionism was established, it marketed itself as bringing civilization to Palestine, as if Palestine is a desert. And this is, by the way, this late 19th century discourse is repeated on and on. by European politicians, not only by Israeli politicians. So dehumanizing the other is the easiest way to justify the genocide, to justify starvation, to justify killing children, to justify destroying schools, because they are, you know, Yoav Galant, the Israeli defense minister, at the very early stages of October 7. immediately after he said we are fighting human animals maybe you remember that and the president of of Israel Herzog for example also said spoke about the war as intended to save western civilization see so Israel positioned itself within the the western civilization We are fighting those savages to make you also safe. You in Europe, in the United States, around the world, you Western civilization. That was said by Netanyahu himself. And I don't know if you recall, Netanyahu tweeted, it is a war between the children of light and the children of darkness. He deleted it later. Maybe, you know, some people protested, but this is how they think about the native. So that's why I think it is important to examine the situation, not through the prism of conflict resolution or through let's make a. peace based on the two-state solution, for example. All of that led to what we are in now. I think when you use settler colonialism as a framework, this will help you understand the tools the settlers use. colonize the land. to get rid of people using different wide variety of tools. You know, Patrick Wolfe, who is the leading scholar on settler colonialism theories, always the colonial project has with it the logic of elimination of the native, but not necessarily genocidal. Look at, for example, what peace agreements. led to the Oslo agreement. Now the land is fragmented into ABC area. Settlements were expanded between the Palestinian communities. So the Palestinians were pushed into a Bantustan model of governments, you know, that's the result of the peace agreement, Roxane Ortiz. She's a Native American, wrote a wonderful book, I think it's called the Indigenous People of the United States of America, something like this. She also mentions how the natives in America signed lots of treaties, all of them led to the expropriation of their land. I think in order to fight this you need to study it within the historical context and see how what informed the Zionist ideology in the late 19th century is Israel is practicing right now. You know, for me, I was surprised that many students in schools, for example, do not know about Balfour Declaration and the responsibility of the UK for what is going on now. So people need to educate themselves. history of the colonization of Palestine, because this is important. It will help us find the right solution for the situation, not through conflict resolution, rather through decolonization. We need to decolonize the system of oppression so that we live all equal rights, justice for everyone. not to perpetuate and keep the power relations, the privileged, still privileged as now, for example, which is an apartheid system. This is all the result of the peace agreements, besides, of course, the policies since the infection of Zionism. So, I mean, during the British mandate, The British facilitated and enabled Zionists to build their institutions while suppressing Palestinians and did not allow them. And then they called them uncivilized, although if there is a documentary on Al Jazeera, it's called Palestine 1920. Palestine was thriving and the destruction of Palestine came. with the British mandate and later with the establishment of Israel I mean if if gaza is an example you know cultural sites were were destroyed completely in gaza for example some of them date back to the fifth century a church and a mosque so in order to confirm this view about the native as being uncivilized and then savages actually the colonial power, make sure to destroy their civilization and then say they are not civilized, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 [00:37:48] Thanks for that response, Nadia. That was amazing to hear. It was really interesting to hear about what you said about bringing civilization to Palestine as part of a broader colonial project that the Western world enacted upon the New World when they discovered it. And I remember when I volunteered at a youth center in the occupied West Bank, and sort of had steadfastness And... sumad that the people had, this is a place where it's located right on the apartheid wall, there's persecution happening every day and within that youth center they're educating children on their rights as Palestinians and also employing methods of cultural resistance through art, music, which was beautiful to see. And then alongside this, how do you see the evolution of Palestinian resistance. in terms of the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how does this relate to international solidarity movements like BDS in shaping resistance strategies?

Speaker 4 [00:38:59] Yeah, I mean, look, I think you have yourselves noticed how transnational the Palestinian struggle is, especially after the events of October 7th. I think Palestinians are always able to develop new forms of resistance, given the the situation on the ground. For example, I was an activist in the first Intifada, and I saw how Palestinians, it was a popular resistance, nonviolent. Later on, that involved all sectors of Palestinians. Everybody participated. and they were able to challenge all Israeli policies and efforts, for example, prolonged curfews. During prolonged curfews, they were able to grow their own gardens for food sovereignty. That's only one example. Now, when the Second Intifada was violent and militarized, they not, of course, engage. the popular base did not engage many people. So Palestinians developed this BDS movement as a nonviolent way of resistance. You know now, let me first tell you that there has been cooperation between Palestinians and Palestinian and Israeli peace groups. After the second Intifada, it's a long story. I know there isn't much time to talk about it. But first, after Oslo, these Israeli peace groups transformed from action-based to more a program, which I just mentioned at the beginning. It's called People to People Program. Basically this program is funded by international donors and it's apolitical. that brings Palestinians and Israelis together to talk about social, cultural, but not politics. Because we, the donors, assume that we are in the era of peace. So now we need to think about how do we operate. The program failed because it was detached from reality. And if you know that the second Intifada came as a result of the failure of Camp David that where Israel rejected any solution to the crucial issues, the issue of Jerusalem, the issue of Palestinian refugees' right of return, and the dismantlement of the illegal Israeli settlements. It failed. So after the second intifada, Palestinians who were involved in people-to-people and in cooperation with Israeli peace groups. wanted the struggle or the resistance, the joint resistance with the Israeli groups to be on clear bases and on clear principles. So the NGO network, the Palestinian NGO network, issued a statement saying anyone who wants to struggle with us, they should recognize the right of return first. also recognized that Israel is responsible for the Nakba, for the 1948. Some responded, and that's why, you know, you mentioned Masafer Yatta, for example. Some Israeli groups, they come and work with Palestinians action-based, like the First Intifada, not like post-Oslo, this people-to-people. They are few in number, but more genuine. and they are seeking justice for all and equal rights. Palestinians, and they engage, also Palestinians engage with international solidarity groups. I remember in 19, in 2021, during Sheik Jarrah events in Jerusalem when Israel was going to evict the Sheik Jarrah neighborhood in Jerusalem. It was COVID at that time, COVID-19, and Palestinians used social media to raise awareness about what is going on. There was a video by Black Lives Matter. When I see them, I see us. It's basically linking the struggle against colonialism also with racism. we i mean as long as there is colonization as long there will be resistance and different forms not necessarily i mean non-violent resistance has been gaining momentum among palestinians through connecting with the international groups international solidarity groups And let me tell you something based on my research. Masafer Yatta in particular in my book, COVID-19 in Palestine, I interviewed activists there. And they told me that they were isolated during COVID-19 because solidarity groups stopped coming to support them and also Israeli groups were not there. And one activist said to me, the Israelis became more, Israeli army became more brutal in the absence of these solidarity groups. So I think there is a lot to be done. It is still ongoing. You saw, for example, the protests in the United States against the arrest of Mahmoud, the activist. So it's far from finished. Even though there are policies to silence and suppress, people always find ways.

Speaker 2 [00:45:46] Thank you, Nadia. I think that's a really powerful way to kind of conclude that discussion. And I think I just wanted to kind of raise a conversation that I had with a Palestinian friend just before I left, when I was living in Ramallah. it was about that importance of international solidarity and of the international community witnessing what Palestinians go through on a day-to-day basis. And he said, never forget that your blood is Palestinian and forgive my Arabic, but he said, remember, Palestine, my blood is Palestinian. And for me, that is something that I was 22 when I went out and lived in Palestine. It was 10 years ago. And I remember that phrase. Every single time I see Palestinians being dehumanized in the media, every single time I see a Palestinian child being killed in Gaza, every time I see a village being occupied by the Israeli states, I remember, Palestine, my blood is Palestinian. And I think everything that you talked about then is really powerful in terms of that international struggle for social justice. the cross-pollination of social justice movements is so powerful. and I think that is something that we are increasingly seeing and that's why we are seeing increased suppression of and repression of protest movements and of, as we talked about earlier, freedom of speech in an academic context. So thank you so much for raising so many...

Speaker 4 [00:47:18] Let me just say something final. You know also Mahmoud Darwish, we have on this land that which deserves life, that's what keeps us going. I think people need to know more about Palestine within the historical context and there are wide variety of literature and of readings. that people can not necessarily hard academic work. For example, there's a recent book, I think last year by Suad Amiry, Mother of Strangers that is based on a true story about daily life in Jaffa between 1947 and 1951. There is, and I don't know if people know, For example, who is sentenced to three life sentences, to prison, I think three life sentences. He managed to write a novel called A Mask, The Color of the Sky, while serving the three life sentences in jail. And his novel won the international prize for Arabic fiction recently. So, also read Edward Said, Orientalism, to help you understand this issue of being civilized, uncivilized. Yeah, you need to look at the, not only the academic or the, or, you know, hard knowledge, let's say, but also there are wide variety of varieties of topic that reflects the... vibrant life of Palestinians, music, as you mentioned, Alex, music, art. It's all forms of steadfastness and resistance.

Speaker 2 [00:49:31] Thank you, Nadia. And that kind of really nicely leads, you know, that was the kind of final thing we wanted to ask. And, and what we will do is share some resources, some of the resources you've just mentioned, your own research as well. And we'll make sure that there's a list of resources for any students or academics who listen to this podcast who wants to engage with these topics further. Thank you so much for sharing that list.

Speaker 4 [00:49:55] also if you want like academic stuff like there is Nur Masalha for example who wrote the expulsion of palestinians the concept of transfer uh it's a i think it's a must read book because it shows how the concept of transfer was deeply inscribed in in zionism from early stages of development He also published Palestine: A 4,000 year history. which directly challenges the claim of Zionists that they made the desert bloom in Palestine or other, you know, Zionism's founding myths. So yeah, there are a wide variety. I also recommend Bayani al-Hout who wrote about the massacre of Sabra and Shatila during the invasion of Lebanon. a great insight to what is happening, to what happened. to the refugees during that time. I recommend As'ad Ghanem, Nadim Rouhana, Areej Sabagh-Khoury, who wrote about the systematic discrimination against Palestinian citizens in Israel, because they are often a category forgotten or absent from the Palestinian narrative and discourse. And finally, on Palestinian water. and climate crisis. He writes beautifully about, I mean, beautifully, but I mean, about how Israel controls Christian water that is affecting food sovereignty and also farming and Christian agriculture.

Speaker 3 [00:51:46] Thank you, thank you, Nadia. And we'll make a list as well for resources for students and academics alike. I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's been incredible to hear your words in such an important and pressing issue. And I just wanted to highlight again, you coming to speak at our university on the 23rd of April at half four and... The event is open to university staff alongside students and also the general public, which is a great thing. And I hope, hopefully the event will be heavily attended. There's been a lot of interest so far, so that will be great.

Speaker 2 [00:52:25] Yeah, just again to say a massive thank you for sharing your time with us and for talking about all of the incredibly pressing and important issues that you've highlighted today. And I think a final message from us as GDI students for Palestine is to anyone who is listening, whether you're a student, an academic or a member of the public, remember, as Nadia has talked about, that Palestine links to everything. It is at the center of so many different issues and it is one of the major social justice crises of our time. It is important and we have a duty and a responsibility to speak up in any way that we can on any platform that we can. So if you hear this podcast, please take these messages away. Please share the podcast with someone else. Please let people know about these important messages. it really, really is absolutely essential. So again, Nadia, thank you so much for your time and we really look forward to seeing you on the 23rd of April 2025.

Speaker 4 [00:53:24] Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Likewise, I'm really looking forward and will see you soon.