Practical Leadership Podcast with Guest Jeffrey J Engle - All the War They Want and Setting New Standards for Leadership

Get ready to be inspired and motivated! In this upcoming video, you'll learn about the keys to successful leadership and how you can take your organization to the next level. 

You'll discover why having the right people on your team is crucial, and how to create a culture of high performers. 

You'll also learn about the importance of purpose, communication, and designing your organization to work together effectively. 

But that's not all - you'll also discover the power of perspective generation, and how it can transform the way your team works together. If you're ready to become the best leader you can be and drive your team to success, this video is a must-watch!

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Practical Leadership Podcast, where leaders share their tools and practical advice to make you a better leader today. My name is Max Kozlovsky. I'll be your host. And today we have a special guest. Our guest today has dedicated his life to protecting our country. He served in the military as a member of the elite special operations community, has earned numerous medals badges, including two bronze medals, the Purple Heart and the Meritorious Service Medal. After his medical retirement from Special Operations, he continued to protect the country through his work in the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, responding to terrorist tax school shootings and other emergency scenarios, and even helping combat Ebola outbreaks in Sierra Leon. He's now the head of Conquest cyber protecting critical American assets from cyber attack. We know it's one of these, ways that war is being conducted nowadays. And, he's a graduate of Virginia Tech with a master's degree in Political science and a cybersecurity certificate from Harvard Universe. He recently launched this new book called All the War They Want, and I could go on and on describing his unique skills and mindset, but I think we should just jump into it. Our guest today, Jeffrey Engel. Jeff, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the time, max, and look forward to having this conversation. Yeah. So, so to get us started, I think I know where you're gonna go with this. What is something exciting that's been happening in your world, recently? Well obviously with the, the launch of the book, that's you know, it's been really significant. The, the feedback that I've gotten has been really positive and, and, you know, and unexpected. You know, my, my book, you know, is you alluded to, focuses on you know, an approach to to solving problems. It's, it's really rejected by, by conventional wisdom and, and most organizations, you know, but it's kind of the, the bedrock of, of how the special operations community solves problems. So the feedback I've gotten from the, the broader, you know, business community, my partners and, and my former teammates in in special operations command has really been, been overwhelming, but, Beyond that it's really the, the activity that we've seen in, in my company, the growth as well as the the advancements of adversaries and the focus that's now being placed on, on cyber resiliency within critical infrastructure after the, the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And many of the breaches that we've seen, you know, publicly most recently it's put a different level of focus on what my business, you know, does day in and day out and has been doing for years. It's, it's really starting to come into the forefront. So, so that's that's obviously getting, getting attention that, that I'm not used to having, you know, lived in the shadows for most, most of my career. Thank, thank you for that. And, you know, launching a book is always exciting, but I think in particular one of the things that I really like about your approach is, is your approach towards leadership, right? Because in everything that we do, and everything you've done and all your experiences, they, they, they're all centered around a different mindset and a different approach to problem solving. So let, let me take you kind of like way back to when you first learned about leadership or what it was. How did you first come in contact with even the concept of leadership? Wow. You know, in, in the Army there's the Army values actually spell out an acronym for leadership. So, you know, when I when I entered, I think it put that into the forefront. And that was, yeah, I was 17 when I, I joined the army. The Army values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. Yeah. That acronym is, is aligned there. But I definitely saw it, you know, throughout my life, even in advance of that, I just didn't know what to call it. Right. I didn't have the context for it, but it, it really came down to, to two things and, and it's people. It was people who were there for, you know, for me when, when nobody else, you know, was, and kind of in the worst moments and the people who pushed me to be the best when I didn't think that I was even capable. So, you know, my, my first experience of leadership, even without knowing what it was, really came down to the, the people that, that ultimately I admired, either wanted to, you know, to be like, or Yeah. That I looked to, you know, for, for guidance and support. You know, when, when times got hard or I got lazy. You know, and then obviously joining the army just embeds a particular approach to that. You know, that's the conventional army. It just beats it into you with the Army values. But I really saw examples you know, leadership of both, you know, in the context of what to do, and a lot of really good examples of what not to do. That really came back to those two things. Were they people that are pushing you to be your best, because that's what they had in mind, and what that was, what they were trying to get out of you because they believed you could be more than you know, than what you were doing. And were they there for you? And, and a lot of times those end up being the same people. The ones who were pushing you the hardest are also the ones that are going be there when, when you actually need it. But to your point around the book, you, it's really, you know, I had, I used those examples, the context of my broader, you know, earlier life and you know, what I experienced in the conventional military. I really saw it, you know A masterclass in leadership when you get surrounded by people who don't have anybody else to turn to when things go wrong, you know? And that's what I got, you know, the, the examples in my book they're, they're really, you know, they're, they're not abnormal within the special operations community, particularly the the special missions unit I was in. There are lessons that, you know, you take from, from them where these people have, you know, a level of professionalism. They have a low, a level of dedication, what they're doing, and high standards for the people that surround them, because there's nobody else to call. You really do have to rely on the, the people to your left and right. So I, you know, I was thankful to have the opportunity to, you know, to get published and share some of those insights both on, you know, what not to do. And, and some of the examples that I saw from really incredible leaders throughout my time, you know, in the special operations community. So Jeff, how do you, how do you take those, those experiences and then translate them into leading people outside of, you know, the special unit outside of the military and, and, and give us a little bit of an insight into, you know, some of the less conventional approaches that, that you'd like to talk about. Yeah, so it's been many years now. I've been leading the company for, for about the last four and a half years. But I was out of the military and outta the special operations community for, for many years before that. And like many, many veterans, you transition and you think that the, the, the lessons and the skills and those types of things may have some translatable value, but, but maybe not directly because it's a different world here on the, on the other side. And the civilian world is, as it's referred to, So I went through what many veterans went through of, you know looking around and trying to reset on my understanding and my expectations and my approach. And what I realized as, as time went on it, there is direct translatable value, maybe a slightly different language, different level of you know, of expectations. Some, obviously some restrictions on some of the things that, that you could do in the military and in special operations that you can't do out in the civilian world. But when I, I got the opportunity to actually be the, the lead and to be the CEO and to, and to lead a company. But I realized it was the only place that I had seen real efficiency and really good work that's done at scale when times are really challenging with really hard problems to solve was back in the special operations community. So since we have a mission that's aligned, see I'm not a. I'm not a b2c, you know, company ceo. I'm not, you know, trying to sell things that every American is buying. I'm really supporting a very specific elements of US critical infrastructure and government where that mission focus has direct translatability. So I found that, you know, having a purpose, having you know, a focus and a mission that's that's actionable, allowed me to take almost all of the concepts that I, you know, learned from the special operations community and directly apply them here. So that's what I've done over the past, you now four and a half years, is take all of the best things that I could from my experience and put them into action in the commercial world. And I'll tell you that they've, they've been really broadly embraced, not just by our team members, but but by the partners that we support. and they're looking for, they were looking for that, right? Most, they were looking for an organization that's, that's focused on being more efficient than the best professional sports teams. You know, where most businesses, you know, are, are run with stove pipes, you know, focusing on seamless integration. So this, it's been you know, a bit of an experiment to take, you know, the, the direct approach that we had in special operations. Everything from, you know, selection being an ongoing process to to on to only accepting the highest level of performance, you know, and yeah. And put that into an into an organization where our competitors and their typ and the typical profile of, of conventional businesses is you, the Pareto principle. You get 20, you know, 20% of your people produce 80% of your results. So, you know, taking that and saying, let's assume that that's the preto principle is generally accurate. What if we had all of our people that would be in that 20%, what would that do to our ability to, to scale and to address hard problems? And, and what would that do for the individuals in their expectations of their own performance and their teammates to really take somebody who has massive potential and help them fully realize it. So it's been it's been an incredible journey, but you do have to take all of the conventional wisdom and understand why it's, why it's in place, and then where you can can make different decisions than, you know, other technology firms or other cybersecurity firms or other businesses in general have put into place. I, I really appreciate that idea for our audience, right, which is, which is really important. We, we always talk about 80 20 in business, and you're saying, Why, like, who said it had to be 80 20, right? Mm-hmm. And and you're saying one of the things that you learned is to set an expectation. And the expectation is that everyone is a high performer, not just some of them, everyone is a high performer. So how do you build a team where everyone is expected to be a high performer and everybody is in that? You know, there's no 80 20. Everyone is, is that 20? Percent. Let me, let me ask you something. So, you know, I, I, I have some friends that, that are veterans, military, community even special ops. And one thing that is very consistent is the, the, the message about, you know, how when, when, when you're in the thick of things, it's about each other, right? It's about fighting for, for, for the person That's to your right and to your left. How do you translate that? How do you, how do you create an organization where, where, where you're taking that value of we're doing it for each other and make it come to life inside, inside your business or inside your organization. Yeah. Yeah. So our approach is to, is to approach the mission of the concept, right? So what we have the benefit with our, with, with what we do, of being able to tangibly tie the activities that we're doing and the customers that we're doing them for to the way of life that, you know, every American experiences. So it's, it ends up being real for them. You know, if, and I, and I, regardless of the role in the business, you know, I'm, I'm always talking about it in terms of ensuring cyber resiliency for the sectors that are critical to our way of life. So I communicated to customers and to partners and internally, and even before the Russian endang of Ukraine or the colonial pipeline attack, there are so many things that are happening on a day-to-day basis that are paper cuts against our critical infrastructure and our way of life. So I've tied that in a way help people understand that there's a, there's a system that's an integrated system that enables you to get on the, your phone app, connect to an Uber, get to, you know, the grocery store and feed your family, or, you know, even at the you've got the red outlets in a hospital that are connected to generators to ensure they're always up. Yeah. That's connected to the support of the oil and gas industry, being able to get fuel to those generat. So if you take down the power grid, you take down a healthcare system, and after three days where if you can't get fuel to those generators, those patients in the ICU start to die. So we have that benefit of being able to make it real for people. And we also don't apply many of the things that other organizations do, where I'm a big proponent of if you will have a connection to somebody and you are bought into the mission and they bring a skill that's going to enhance the organization, then bring them in and we'll make it work. And if they're not right, you have, we have a cultural accountability, you know doctrine within the business that if they're not, if it's not right for them, it's not the right role, they're not the right person for it. It doesn't matter if they're your mother or your brother, your sister, your best friend. You don't. You don't carry that with you. And then, you know, because you're gonna have to swim twice as hard to keep them afloat. So there are a lot of great people who are not right for, for being in this fight with us. So that consistent reinforcement from my level to my senior leadership to, you know, to our, our people who are in more, you know, middle management roles, all the way down to the individual contributors is something that we fostered that basically makes our organization similar to, you know, when you walk into our command centers, you're in the fight. You see our nation's critic, most critical cust, you know, infrastructure organizations. You see adversaries actively targeting'em, and you see our team actively engaged with them to prevent, you know, them from, from going down or getting data that ultimately hurts our, our national security and our way of life. So I have a bit of an advantage organizationally because of what we do and, and why we do it and who we do it for. that, that being about the person to your left and right, it goes beyond now. It's, it's not just the, the warrior to your left and right. It's, you know, your, your, your wife or husband and your children that ultimately would be impacted if, if some of our customers get compromised. And not just on a, on an isolated level, like you're, you know, you have an impact on your bank account or or somebody, you know, commits some fraud. We're talking about the critical infrastructure that enables everything. You know, you can't get food, you know, you can't get clean water. You know, we've seen, and because there have been those real events like j b s where you weren't able to get the meet, you know, the the Christmas or the, the, the Christmas Eve attack here in Nashville where our entire E 9 1 1 system went down because the data center was right next to the road. Yeah. The Scripps Healthcare people weren't even able to go to the hospital. There's so many now specific, tangible examples where people's way of life have been impacted. That when you start to see those aggregated with intention behind it yeah. We are, we are at war and because we're at war, you know, in the company and allows us to, to have that real emotional, you know, connection to, to what it is that we do every day and the people that we do it with. So I I, I really appreciate that you're saying, look we, we, we have the biggest of purposes, right? And, and the purposes to preserve our way of life to preserve life. And, and I think that one of the things that you're mentioning that you're doing really, really well, which I think our audience can learn from, is how you're able to connect the dots for them. How you're able to connect what they do to how they deliver on that purpose and how they keep people safe. and I know that, that you also work with, with, with companies and you kind of help them understand how they can do that themselves. So, so what are some ways that you think that you know, somebody that maybe is a manufacturer or in the food industry or in a service industry, how could they do what you do? How could they drive more purpose and how can they help connect the dots? So people are, are more engaged and, and they see what they have in front of them as, as some sort of war or some sort of battle as well. Yeah, I mean that's, that's really what my, my book is all about it. I mean, we use cyber warfare as as this is our purpose. And, and then getting into the examples of how you build and lead to solve those hard problems that you ha you personally have passion about. I think that we as a country have gotten to a point where we look at work as something that we do to get to something else. You know, you, you work to get the money so you can have fun on Friday night, right? You work so you can get the house to eventually have a family. And that, we consider that generally that's, that is our, that's our life. Work is not our life. And as long as you have this delineation, you know, ind individually that work is something you do to get to life versus work is something that is part of life. It's impossible to, to really connect to the purpose. And part of the reason is to your point, people aren't able to clearly articulate the purpose. They don't have the transparency and the context and the ability to connect the dots. what they do and the, the purpose and the associated mission that's driving that organization, that business, you know, to, to be in business. And in most cases, that can be accomplished. And I think that's the leader's responsibility, you know, and leaders, you know, in plural responsibility to make sure that they can, they can connect their mission to the metric, right? To whatever the output is, the individual has, connect it to the mission. And if they do that, then people, the people who buy in and start doing those activities, stop having this, this delineation between work and life. You know, I take exception to the idea of this work life balance. If you, if you hate what you do and you don't understand the impact that you're making, you're probably not gonna do it very well, and you're probably not gonna be very happy about it. You know, so the, the spillover into life. Where you're sa you're sacrificing, you know, eight hours of your day, five days a week, you know, for 40, 50 years. Yeah. That really, that with me doesn't sit well. I, I've been fortunate that I've, I don't think I've ever had that sentiment around anything that I did that happened to produce money to enable me. I actually, I have the inverse relationship with, with money generally. But if the leader can tie that back, let's say a critical manufacturing process, you know, if you could take a step back and say what you manufacture supports this function and this function ties back to your way of life, and if you there weren't you and people like you, this is what that, you know, dangerous, nightmarish future would look like. I think some of our decisions as a country and, and all the way down to our decisions as individuals would start to change, you know? Let's look at, you know, China's inclusion in the World Trade Organization back in the day, and the massive outsourcing that completely destroyed communities, you know, in in the manufacturing sectors within the United States, bringing back manufacturing now became, has become a, a national security imperative. But if you, we took a step back and, and were able to connect what that, what that manufacturing process did to support our communities to, to bring in other businesses to enable, you know, education or way of life. And you could tie back to the tax dollars that, that were produced by that organization, the, in the community, what that community was able to produce, you know, how many doctors and lawyers and you know, and military veterans and, you know, all of those things that get produced outta that community. And then downstream what that manufacturing process ultimately led to. you'd change the context for those activities. And I think we would find massive amounts of innovation that would be unlocked. Where today, you know, people do tasks and unless they have a mindset or a desire to automate away that task, right? They do that until they find some other task that they want to do or that is gonna pay them more money. Right? So there's not enough context that leaders are providing a lot. I don't think a lot of leaders actually understand the why. So they're not able to communicate it to their teams. And if you can't communicate the why, you can't communicate purpose with no purpose. It's just work. And if it's just work, then it's a, it's a simple transaction that's happening with Yeah. Where people are sacrificing a portion of their life in exchange for your money. And I, I think generally that's sad but more specifically, it, it hurts. Our national security and what we focus on and what we think is important. And ultimately it causes significant reductions in our freedom both to maneuver as a country and our individual freedom. Because I think that's the, the closest thing to prison that doesn't include a jumpsuit in bars is, is doing work that you don't understand the reason for just so you can get a paycheck. Oh, wow. So, so true. And so, so powerful. And I really, I really like how you explain it. The company needs to understand its why it needs to understand its purpose. And then I really like how you say, how you help people understand how their work has to deliver certain outcomes and how those outcomes contribute to delivering on the purpose. And, and, and how you mentioned that, look, if we do what we're supposed to, this is the beautiful, you know, positive outcome that we get. This is how we have a positive impact. But if we don't, then this is the hell there that, that will ensue. Because, because we don't, so you, you end up engaging and connecting with a, with a higher purpose and through cultural fit, you are being able to connect to the, to the purpose as well. So the right culture connects with the right purpose and then having the line of sight of how their work has an impact in what they're trying to do. And, and the other thing that I kind of heard you say, which is if, if someone is not a fit, it doesn't matter who they are, they're just not gonna be here. Cuz if they're not buying into the mission, if they're not willing to be part of that, you know that group, which is all they, they are, they are all 80% right? Or they're all 20% delivering in the 80. Right. The, the expectations that that, that they're all elite, they're all excellent, that will not go. So kind of, kind of aligning. all those things which then leads to the extraordinary outcomes. And I hear a lot of passion in terms of what is happening in, in the world, what's happening in the country. And you're saying, look, you have the highest of, of, of purposes here because you're protecting American's way of life. But every company out there is contributing to that. It's, it is contributing to the wellbeing of the community one way or another. So we all have to figure out the way to connect with it and, and, and, and connect the dots for our team so everybody can, can see it. That, that, that's really cool. Let me, let me ask you something. So I know you, you, you study martial arts, you've studied the old masters and you've also learned from your, your, your military career. What do you think are some leadership misconceptions that are just wrong or off? from your point of view, from your perspective that, you know, our audience here could really, you know, chew on and, and really make them think. Yeah, I think one of the one of the things I see in business that gives me pause because it, it, it ultimately starts to, you know, forces people to start to, to change their behaviors and their approach in ways that are inauthentic, right? I think, I think two things are, are, are critical as a leader, you know, you have to align what you say and what you do, and you also have to expose a bit of who you are to the team. And I, I think there's a, an unfortunate thing that happens when you are junior or that maybe we reinforce growing up, that, that ultimately re result in a bad outcome is that we, we put people. based off of position into categories that are unrealistic. We take away, we try to strip away the humanity of a ceo. Yeah. And it becomes you know, because they said, or they, you, they expect a different level of performance or decorum or perspective where, you know, I've learned this throughout my career. It doesn't matter whether you're a four star general president of the United States CEO or you know, an intern, you know, you are who you are, right. You just have a different job. And I think that's the biggest problem is that the job of being a manager and the job of being a leader, it comes in conflict with the the, the perceptions that we generate around positions that are endowed with perceived authority. So I, I think that's a problem if either side believes it. I think that my opinions are better because I'm the ceo. You know, that's just as bad as if an intern expects that a CEO is supposed to dress a certain way or to speak a certain way or to act a certain way. Right. There's a, there's obviously a level of professionalism in the workplace that needs to be maintained, but when it comes down to it, your uncle is the ceo. You don't expect him to act like a ceo. You expect him to be your uncle. And I think when, particularly when you get into an organization like, like the one that I've been building Yeah. I'm in the fight with you and I'm, I'm, I have, I'm surrounded by people who have, who are foster, they who are faster, smarter. You have stronger that may have a different perspective in the right opinion and being wrong Right. Is, is great when you realize it. So what I've taken from martial arts, I think is really valuable is it's, it's humbling and sometimes sacrificing, you know, perception actually helps the broader team. So the example I give is, you know, I'm, I'm, I am a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu. I've been training martial arts for many, many years. And when I go into to jujitsu, because I've been doing this for a long time and I'm, I'm pretty good I don't compete in training with the white belts and the blue belts and the purple belts and the brown belts and even other black belts the same way I would, I would act in competition. I put myself in uncomfortable positions so I can, I can get value out of the training. And that means that sometimes that white belt or blue belt is gonna requ, is gonna cause me to tap because I, I put myself in a position that was uncomfortable and ultimately that that meant in order to solve, solve that problem in the near term I needed to tap, which meant in that person's mind, they just beat a black belt. And that may be the reason that that person keeps training for the next 20 years rather than quitting. So what I've found, and, and that is one, the better. When you get really good, you have, you, you learn that there's still people that are much better than you. And you realize that there's no, there doesn't need to be an ego attached to the particular outcome of what happens inside, you know, of the academy. You don't learn that until you've been doing it for a long time. You know, the first line manager always wants to be the right one, and they say, go do it because I said, but when you've been a, you know, in leadership and experienced, you know, great leaders, as long as I have, the only thing that matters is the mission. And are you getting there the best way possible? Are you making people better along the way and, and are you challenging yourself with things to set the right example, you know, for the other leaders that are coming up? Because if you just have a, if you have a black belt like me come in and just crushing light belts and blue belts, you know, those people are gonna end up quitting, which means the martial art wri large is gonna suffer from your need to win every round. So, I, I, I really appreciate you, you've given us a lot here. I'm gonna mention a couple of things that you said, but then I wanna focus on one. So you kind of said that, you know, authority is an illusion and it could be an illusion. So just, just because you've been there longer or have a certain title doesn't mean you're any smarter. It doesn't mean you have the right answers. So, you know, we've, we've gotta be able to see through that illusion. And then you said, you know, you, you've got to put yourself in uncomfortable positions to, to be able to challenge yourself and, you know, you know, we often talk about how growth happens outside your comfort zone. And you're saying, you know, when you put yourself in an uncomfortable situation, you might look bad, but you're doing it with an intention to grow, to challenge yourself to get better. And, and in another gym is, you know, it's kinda like when you, when you let your kid win, right? It's, it's to build a little bit of their self-confidence. It's to, it's to build an image of themselves. It's to be able to make them feel like they could, they could succeed and be better. And you don't take that as a I'm less, you're saying I am giving, I am. I am giving you that. And, and you need to be able to put the ego to the side and never forget the mission. and really be able to recognize that that's what it, that's what it really all is all about. And that takes a lot of maturity. That really takes a lot of maturity. We're, we're, we're, we're like, how did, was there a point in your life where you realize that, Hey, it's not about me and what I know, I don't have to be the smartest person in the room. I just need to be able to get the answers to help us accomplish the mission? It, it was there a moment where that like flicked and it happened probably when I became a father You know, when I, you know, when you start having a, you know, when you have kids that are able to start to interact with you and you realize that, you know, Them coming up with rules, them taking a, a strong position on things, them seeing you be wrong and you, you know, and you know, kids are, you know, the most brutal of all when it comes to condemnation, when you're wrong about something. You know, my, you know, my son, he if you, if you say something that's, that's inaccurate, he is all over you. Hey, at the same time. Because, because you set that example, when he is inaccurate, there's a, there's a way to approach it. An example I set with him to, to also correct him, but do it in a, in a less abusive way than a five-year-old does to an adult. So I, I think that was definitely a turning point for me. But I, I saw a lot of great examples of doing that, you know, throughout my career. You know, and I, I take back to the, the work life comment that I made. You have to set an you if you're a, if you're in a, this is practical leadership, right? So it all comes down to setting an example. Your kids watch you, they don't do what you say. They, they do what they see, right? Mm-hmm. over time. I think the same thing happens within the context of, you know, whether you're a coach or you know, a business leader, what have you, you want people to want to grow. If I went into scenarios and all I did was I only set any something, if I was a hundred percent sure that I was right, then that's what people are seeing. That's the example I'm setting. That's the expectation that they're setting with themselves, and that to me is a problem. It means they're only gonna take on things to your point that they're comfortable with. and I need them to be as comfortable taking on things that they're uncomfortable with as I can possibly achieve in order to have this, you know, my organization continue to scale. So I You set that example by making it okay. You know, it may not be desirable to be embarrassed, right. But it's much better to be okay with being embarrassed to a degree, and that driving you to spend more time preparing and being accurate than it is to make them feel like if they're wrong, it's it, you know, it's game over. So, I, I reinforce in our organization, it's not about, you know, it's not about being right every time. It's really about doing what you said you were gonna do and being, being right as much as you possibly can because you've prepared. But I'm gonna force you to take on things that I know you don't know how to do. You know, I've got examples that, you know, sometimes I have to carve out time just to take on something that I know I've never done before, or I don't know what to do to, to, you know, partially to show them that I still got it. Like I can still do some things. That it's not just sitting up here in my ivory tower, you know, saying Go do. But partially because I know I, I'm gonna have to go ask them for their help. I'm gonna, that's me putting, you know, giving my arm to that, to that white belt and seeing if I can navigate through it without completely losing. And there's, you know, if I don't give up and I'm, I, I take their help, they're gonna walk away and the whole company's gonna know that I didn't know how to do something and they had to help me, which I'm okay with because that keeps them motivated to be in that position. And it also sets the example that that's, that's a completely right and good position to be in, where you need the help from your teammates and teammates. That's, that's, that's really cool to hear. There's, there's a lot there. So I think that I, I, I want to go to one of these places that I see business owners struggle with all the time. And we're talking about failure, right? We're talking about stretching people, wanting more from them allowing them to be vulnerable, allowing them to fail. But at the same time, we're saying, Hey, failure could be devastating. Failure could, could mean loss of, of, of life loss of our, our, our way of life. So in the highest of stakes, you're still saying there's room. For mistakes and there's room for growth. And a lot of business owners that I work with feel like, you know, like a mistake would be the end of the world and they can't allow for it. So that's why they're gonna do it themselves. Or, you know, they're not gonna promote this other person, or they're not even willing to teach somebody else. So how do you deal with, with, with, with failure? Cause again, you're putting people in a position where you're stretching them. They are uncomfortable, they want to get better, which means they're gonna make mistakes. How do we deal with mistakes? Yeah. So, so failure and, and mistakes. I, I make sure that everybody understands those are, those are two different words, right? They're two very different states of being. And I provide a, I have to provide a risk frame of what failure actually. especially to to to leaders, right? To people who are expected to lead. And because they need to con, they need to amplify and reinforce the message and the culture. You have it, that may start with me, but ultimately is determined on the ground level, right? So I provide that frame of what failure actually is. And for our business failure is our way of life is no longer being sustained. We can't get food, we can't stock things in on the shelves, we can't get, you know, get fuel to the generators for the hospitals. We can't keep the power grid up. You know, we can't keep, get clean water flowing to our faucets. Failure for us as a business is mission failure, which ties back to our purpose. So that to me is oncoming traffic. It's not a scraped knee. And that's the way I frame it. I frame it very much like I do with my children. yeah, they're gonna fall off their bike, get bumps and bruises. But if I allow them to ride out the traffic and they get hit, it stops being their problem, it starts being my problem. Now I'm dealing with the fact that I allowed my kid, my kid to perish. So that to me is failure. I contextualize that failure in those, in the terms that I described, where it's mission failure, mistakes for failure, and a task, that type of thing, that's a scraped theme. Scraped knee are really valuable. I've got a lot of bumps and bruises along the way re you know, ultimately resulted in my medical retirement from the military. But those are stark reminders of what not to do. That's a callous that's built over soft skin. Those are things that are really valuable when they ultimately get put in the position of leadership and they're helping to guide people towards the right answer, right? They have now better instincts because of those scraped knees. So I think people mischaracterize what failure is. Failure is not the act of not meeting a desired state. And it be, if you treat it like it's the, you know, not meeting the, the desired state, then you'll never be able to scale a business. Because if you can't build, you know, leaders, subordinate leaders and managers that are amplifying the message and aligning the purpose, you ultimately are gonna end up in a state where you, you have to stay small because you can only control so much, you know, directly as a business owner. So I, I really appreciate how you're separating failure from mistakes and saying, look, mistakes are small things we get to learn from. We get better. They're great reminders. They, they probably improve our systems, our process, our way of thinking. Mm-hmm. and, and failure is, is kind of from what I gathered, is, you know, we, we've made some, some, some major bad decisions, right? Like we've put, we've put ourselves, our company, our people, our children in, in a, in a situation that they shouldn't have been in. And, and it's important to recognize it because it's kind of like, you know, failure is not an option. You know, that that's, that's something that we need to be working against, but mistakes are something to be learned from. So, so how do we how do we avoid failure? How, how do we, how do we make sure that those big things don't happen? Yeah. It starts with, starts with making sure that your organization is designed to work together rather than individually. So one of my biggest concerns around companies and the culture and everything else ends up being around stove pipes. We are yeah, we are a country that builds businesses of stove pipes, where I am a finance person. I am just in sales. I am just in delivery. And if something arrives in delivery's lap from sales, that's not workable, it becomes, sales is problem and sales is pointing at delivery saying, well, you know, you're supposed to deliver it. And everybody's pointing at finance saying, you know, why didn't we hit the, the appropriate margins on the p and. and it becomes a very reactive state of now once disaster happens, right? Disaster, I would say is right below failure. You're trying to do forensic analysis to figure out the why, and a lot of that why is because of the stove fights. So if, if we just attack those, you end up with natural controls that prevent you from going too far down the wrong road. You know, I'm a, I, we didn't mention it, but I, I, you know, a couple of years ago I became a pilot, so I couldn't jump out of airplanes anymore. So I went and got my pilot's license and, you know, the way I equate that is, you know, most you know, most air aircraft incidents come down to two things, right? One of them is fuel starvation. You know, literally you ran out of gas or there's something that's preventing the gas from getting to the engine, right? And the other one is called controlled flight into terrain. So controlled flight into terrain is literally I'm flying the plane, everything's cool, and then, oh, a mountain gets there before you have an opportunity to, you know, increase an altitude or to, yeah, to bank hard enough. So same thing happens in business sales keeps selling something that's not profitable. They can't be delivered. delivery doesn't know that it's coming. They don't have the resources in place. Finance, you know, when they did their analysis, they priced it incorrectly and couldn't be delivered at those points. And it's all because the, the stove pipes didn't connect and it, and resulted in you either running outta fuel or flying into a mountain. So the way I prevent failure is I think about things proactively around, you know, and, and I pull in all of those parts of the organization that were previously treated as stove pipes and force them to be an integrated ecosystem where they all have to move forward together. Like the wings on a plane. The ailerons. Yeah. The, the engine, the gps, they're all part of one plane. And them collaborating effectively determines whether you get to your destination or you experience fuel starvation or have controlled flight engine terrain. And I think that for the larger tech businesses, I don't know if you, we've been seeing it, there's a massive layoffs. Massive, massive layoffs. And I look at those massive layoffs and I, I saw it coming very, very long time ago because the They were paying exorbitant sums for resources, which were inflating the resource costs, and they were hiring a ton of people that they didn't have an immediate need for. So they were subject to the Pareto principle, right? 80% of those people were not providing the value. So we're now, we're seeing, start, starting to see layoffs, and I don't think they're doing those based off of whether or not this is the bottom 80% they're doing it just cutting out whole sections of the business. That's the equivalent of like dumping a, you know, dumping fuel because your plane is too heavy. It might work. It might allow you to, to get to level of lift that you need to get over that mountain. But it might also be the reason that you experience fuel starvation later. So it's treating everything as it needs to be proactive rather than reactive with forensic analysis. and making sure that all parts of the plane are effectively communicating and working together and compensating for each other when they need to. In order for us to get to, you know, a safe landing spot, even if that's not the destination that was originally planned. What, what, what a great reminder. Cause it in a, in a sense, we all know it, but in reality we are not good at it. Right? So the big idea is we have to be designed to work together, to work as a team and not to be siloed. And, you know, being able to see far enough ahead. So, you know, you are saying a failure happens cuz you run outta gas. So cash is, is is another conversation, right? Mm-hmm. But sometimes you run outta cash and that's what will stall your business. But saying, Hey, we are, we are not working together, so we are not understanding the implications for, for each of the departments. Then you can't see far enough. and you are reactive, which, you know, you might end up dumping the gas that you're gonna need later. We need to be proactive and we need to, and we need to be integrated. And, you know, we, we talk a lot about what we like to say, like, like an open and visible playing field where everybody can see what everybody else is doing and how that is having an impact in, in, in the game you're playing. You're saying, look, if you don't, if you don't have that, then you're, you might be driving, you know, flying yourself into the ground or into a mountain because you know, like the, the, the front of the plane doesn't know what the back of the plane is doing. And yeah. As, as, as, as, as as a big issue. And then the other thing that you're saying is that by understanding these principles, you could see companies making mistakes that could be avoided. and they, and you're seeing how they are being reactive in that, that, how that might hurt them in, in, in later stages. And they were just not, not being smart and working collectively. And, you know, one, one of your comments reminds me of you know, whether you love or hate Elon Musk and whether you like or hate Twitter how he came in and he said, look, I could, I could manage this organization instead of 2000 engineers. I can ha I can manage it with 30. Right? Going back to the 80 20 and you're saying, look, there's, there's a bunch of eighties that should, you know that there's no reason that they shouldn't all be part of the 20 that's delivering 80% right. The, again, the setting, the, the new expectations and defining new standards for everyone. So really, really, really powerful. Let me, let me ask you this. So getting even more practical. I know I, I know you probably use a bunch of different tools, a bunch of different systems, a bunch of different approaches. Is there like a, a particular tool exercise that you know, is kinda like your go-to, to help leader leaders be better leaders, or that helps you lead others? And, and if so, would you like to kind of share a little bit of what it is and, and how you use it? Yeah, absolutely. So on the point of you know, I want to kind of hit the point of the 80 20. I think that the, the reality of 80 20 is that that 80% is filled with people who have the potential of being in the 20% if they were surrounded by the right people, focused on the right purpose, given the right mission as a concept and, and led yeah. To that. Now, some people are just never going to be. Elite performers in, in one organization and they're gonna be rock stars somewhere else just because of the culture, the approach, what they're doing, their level of passion, that type of thing. But our approach practically, I've, I've taken what we do in a platform. So we built you know, armed a T k, which is kind of our, our flagship platform that's designed around unified cyber resiliency management. So it's connecting risk to operations and operations back to risk. Really like a navigation tool of where you stand in relation to where you want to be and what you need to go do by priority. So for people who aren't in cyber, not everybody in my company, you know, came up as a cybersecurity professional, even plays a cyber role, right. I realized that it was critical that they understood it, but also critical that we, you know, ate our own dog food. So I built something called resiliency roi, right? It's the risk operations integration for business resiliency. and I structured it with domains of the business, like each wing, you know, the arons, the rudder, you, the tail, the gps, so their, their domains and then their associated capabilities. And those domains in the business need to, to be able to meet other people. Look at that as an org chart. But I, I built it out in a maturity model. So every six months we perform a risk analysis to the business. We do the risk frame, we do the analysis, we look at people, process, technology, the maturity of our capability areas. We set where we had established where we are, and we set targets for where we're gonna be in six months. And then we resource, we plan and we execute to building that demonstrable maturity, using that framework so everybody in the company knows. that we are focused on these four or five areas to mature the business. It's done based off of risk. We resource it appropriately. So if we're not investing and maturing a particular area of the business, everybody knows why and everybody can get behind, you know, us, us focusing on that for that period. And then ultimately it becomes something, something new in the period that follows. So essentially it's rendezvous points on a navigation pathway, and we avoid the mountains and we avoid, you know, storms by doing the risk analysis and using that to drive, you know, the day-to-day activities to, to mature our business. So I call that resiliency roi. But it's, it's very much similar to, to what we've done with the yeah, the NIST Cybersecurity. they normalize the, the language we use to establish clarity around expectations. So everybody understands the why you know, behind the, what they need to go do, and they can get behind you know, us getting to that target state. And then and then obviously associated compensation and, and individual bonus objectives, that type of thing are all tied to those decisions as well as, you know, additional supporting infrastructure technology. So, so thank you for sharing that. One of, one of the key messages I get from that is, you know, you're, you're, you're consistently working on, on the plan. You're consistently working on the strategy. You're consistently evaluating the performance of, of the team. And I, to me, that's one of, one of the, you know, one of the big messages for, for entrepreneurs out there CEO. Aspiring cos you, you've gotta put yourself in a place where, where you can spend time on, on strategy and on, on growth and on, on the development of the plans and the analysis of the plan. So that, that is, that is excellent. Thank you for sharing that. I'm gonna do a little bit of a summary. I'm not gonna be able to, to, you shared so many things, but here's a few things that really stood out for me. So I, I really like your approach when you're saying, you know, one of the things about leadership is, is that it's about people that are there for you and people that push you to be your best. Right? Patient. People that are there for you, and people that push you to be your best. Even, even when you don't believe that yourself. They are pushing you and they're, and they're, and they're elevating you to another level, which also came up quite a bit, right? Because, cause you know, we talked about like 80 20 and how 20% of people deliver 80% of the outcomes, and you're saying, everyone should be in that 20%. Everyone with the right systems, with the right processes, with the right support, with the right training, could be high performers. And we shouldn't think that that's not possible. That should be our standard, that should be our expectation in by doing. So, we're gonna take the, the organization to a, to a whole other level. Talked about the importance of purpose in connecting the dots for the team, really recognizing the importance of the mission. What happens when you succeed, what happens when you don't succeed, and in the line of sight of how their work delivers outcomes, that in those outcomes have an impact on achieving that mission. So I think that's fantastic. Authorities and illusion, right? Just because somebody has a higher rank or position doesn't mean they're any smarter or they have any better answers than you. So it's important to recognize that and then put the ego to the side. Put yourself in in uncomfortable positions that are gonna force you to grow. And not only do they force you to grow, but they can, they can, they can provide something to the other people, right? They, they can inspire them, they can motivate them, and, and then ultimately you're all better for it. And it, and, and it, and, and, and it's kind of like you pushed yourself, you took one for the team in a way, but it ended up making everybody a lot better. Make sure your organization is, is designed to work together and everybody needs to be able to see what everybody else is doing, working on prioritize well and communicate all those priorities. Is, is kind of what, what I heard there, because then people know what you're supposed to be working on and what you're not and why, why the decisions are such. And ultimately the, the big idea of you've, you've, you've gotta be a C E O, right? I mean, a c e O has to be working on strategy, on, on macro systems. The evaluation and implementation of those and to figure out how to the organization continues to work better. So that's kind of my little summary. There was a whole lot more. Jeff, anything else that I missed or you want to add that, you know, that we, we didn't get a chance to get to that you think would be valuable to just, you know, reinforce? Yeah, just, just one thing. I mean, you mentioned the invisible playing field where people can see what everyone else is doing. I, I think that's, I think that's critical, but I would go one further that you have to be able to see the perspective that that person has on that playing field as well. Yeah. You know, there are many examples, but I, I believe that that perspective and perspective generation like you, you need to be able, as a leader to help a developer understand. the impact of what they're doing on sales and a salesperson understand the impact of a decision they made on delivery or finance. And if you can, if you can help people generate perspective, you can set the example for them on how to generate perspective. And a little bit of perspective generation kills a lot of internal conflict as you're trying to get organizations to work together. So that's the one thing I would, I would, I would reinforce, I try to reinforce all the time as a leader, my expectation for you is you can grab that person that you're engaged with and whatever challenge that they're facing or opportunities they're facing, and walk them around the field conceptually and help them understand what everybody else is seeing. Because if you can do that effectively, I think you can do more with, you know, A hundred people than most organ organizations do with a thousand. What a what, a what a wonderful concept. Not only does everybody get to see what everybody else is doing, but you, you get to kind of embody them and have that empathy and recognize what they're going through, which, which then will allow you to communicate better and ultimately do better. You put it in better words than I did, but that's fantastic. So, to kind of close, close up here, what is, what is something that you're looking forward to that's gonna be happening, you know, here in the next few weeks or months in your world? Wow. You know, I've got, I've got my, my team coming from around the, the end the country a portion of them coming in next week. And, you know, I, I always look forward to getting out in the field and engaging with our partners and our customers and our team members and, and when they come in and we can and I have the opportunity to help. generate some of that perspective and, and skill around prospective generation. I, you know, I'm, you know, absolutely a lucky guy. I get to, I get to surround myself with the best in the world and I get to help them be better, right. Without, without any ego about it. So I, I'm constantly looking forward to that. This is, you know, like I mentioned, it's not work life for me. You know, it, it's, it's just life. And I've got the, the good fortune to choose what I do, why I do it, and who I do it with. So, you know, bringing together the people who jumped on board with our, with, you know, with the mission I'm passionate about, who are working with me shoulder to shoulder, to, to help solve, you know, some of the most significant threats to, to national security in our way of life. I'm, I'm constantly enthused by that. And, you know, whenever I see that, you know, that that light bulb moment for people when they're like, I get why this company is different. I get why we do things differently, and I get that from, you know, our internal team as I, as well as partners. So any opportunity I get to, to, to have those conversations and, and take on really hard problems and, and see people start to solve them and feel more comfortable about sitting at the table rather than, you know, sitting in the back chair or stepping up even though they don't have a title that, you know, would allow them to in, in other places. So there's a lot more of that coming. That's how I'm gonna spend 2023 is, is out there in the field talking to people you know, and internally here engage with, you know, with the world's best team. Yeah. That I'm, I'm proud to be a part of, you know, let alone have the, you know, the, the opportunity to. That sounds super exciting. And again, I want to remind everyone about your book, all the War they Want. I think it's gonna become one of those, one of those books, one of those pieces that you get to go back and reference and study and really learn from what you've been implementing and has led to all the success and, and ultimately, you know, the sort of stuff that you do that is keeping us all safe. So thank you very much for all that you do and, and for sharing, sharing your, your experience with, with the world. Where, where can people find, find out more about you, about your company, about the book? Sure. I appreciate the, they have the opportunity, so all the work they want is in it's, it's on Amazon. I've had the good fortune. I think we've been the number one new release and we've made it to the top three bestseller. So, you know, I appreciate all the support there. There's some information about me, there's an author page in Amazon. You can also go to Barnes and Noble and other places conquest, you know, it's, you know, it's conquest cyber.com. And, you know, people are out there on LinkedIn. They can, they can connect with me. I do have a, a Twitter account. I, you know, I use it mo mostly for monitoring some of the shenanigans that are going on on Twitter and, and out there in the world rather than, than posting a lot. But if I, if I get the interest of people to, to share some of the, the things that I, you know, that I think, and then I perceive, you know, I'll, I'll increase that as well. But you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very open to connecting with people there on, on LinkedIn or Twitter. And, you know, if you want to join the fight with us, there are a lot of ways to do that. We're, you know, through the Thin Digital Line initiative there's a, a, you know, a group on on LinkedIn there. That's really for us, helping everybody else. Cuz my company just takes on the most high value targets and critical infrastructure which means we're talking, you know, hundreds of organizations rather than the 400,000 that need it. So we started the Thin Digital Line Initiative to help build capability for everybody else that may not be able to afford. You know, our direct support or our solution is as advanced as ours. Well, again, thank you for, for everything that you do. Quick reminder for our audience, you can head over to practical leadership.com, practical leadership.com, and you can download the summary of our, of our podcast today. Keep the keynote and action items available to you. So Jeff, thanks again for taking the time. I think it's inspiring. I, I feel safer knowing that, you know, a lot of our critical infrastructure is in your hands and that you're. Using, you know, some of the best practices in when it comes to leading people and now open to teaching them to, to everyone else. So thank you, very much for, for your participation today and for everything that you do. Yeah. Thanks Max. I appreciate the time and hope everybody enjoyed it. Thank you.