Practical Leadership with Guest - Cleveland Justis & Daniel Student

On this episode of Practical Leadership we discuss several big ideas starting with how the government can be your friend, not just your client, and how working with them can open up huge possibilities for social entrepreneurship. 

We also explore the concept of hero leadership and how it's all about people and team, rather than one person doing everything. Our guest shares valuable insights on building diverse teams, code-switching, and code-mixing, which can lead to individual and organizational growth.

We discuss the importance of mindfulness and reflection, and how small experimentsand risks can lead to great outcomes. How Surrounding yourself with other learners and adopting a beginner's mindset can also lead to deeper understanding and growth. 

Tune in to this episode to learn more about these exciting and powerful
ideas that can transform your leadership style and help you make a positive
impact in the world of social entrepreneurship.

Transcript

0:05

Hello and welcome to the Practical Leadership Podcast where leaders share their tools and practical advice to make you a better leader today. My name is Max Slosky. I will be your host and boy do I have a show for you guys today. Cleveland Justice and Daniel Student, they are colleagues at per perera group. You guys can help me if I mispronounce that. A management consulting organization with deep roots working in public-private partnerships. Cleveland is an accomplished organizational leader in interpret neural arenas and has served as a co-founder and director of the institute at the Golden Gate and executive Director of the Headlands Institute. He's also led uc, Davis's Institute for Innovation Entrepreneurship. Daniel has been a cultural, environmental and social sector leader for over 20 years. He brings a unique cross section of creative and business strategy to his work. He designs and leads workshops on teams, communication, culture, storytelling, leadership, change management. And he does this for conferences, organizations, and universities. And I'm super excited because they have a brand new book out and I just love the subject and I love the content. The book's called Don't Lead Alone. Without further ado, let's get into it. Cleveland. Daniel, it's great to have you guys on the show today. Nice to be here. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, max. It's great. Great to be here. Excellent, excellent. So, to get us started, what, what is something good that's been happening in your world over the last, you know, few weeks or months that you'd like to share? I mean, we're, we're both we work a lot with outdoors industry and I think we were both just talking recently just about the sun coming out being a thing we'd like to share. We're both based in California and have had these atmospheric rivers and, you know, just so much happening. And it, you know, I think that turning of spring is, you know, we both work from home offices, so getting a chance to sit outside and and be connected to nature and go back and, you know, take hikes and all that, I think is really lovely. And I, I will say that I'm also a big baseball fan, so opening day just happened. And so you get that combination, getting that picture in my head of sitting outside at a ballgame with a beer and getting out to do hikes. I just feel like we should all honor and celebrate this moment that we, in humanity share of just, you know, the rebirth of spring just feels very powerful for me right now. So that's what I'm thinking about. Very cool. And I thought it was always sunny in California. What, what, what happened? Right? I think that's only Philadelphia where I used to live. And that, that TV show's totally wrong about that too, so, no. Cleveland, how about you? I, you know, the, the, I completely second what Daniel said. My other thing that's, Thinking, I'm thinking a lot about is my course. I teach social entrepreneurship at uc, Berkeley, and my students are almost at the end of the semester, so they've been working on final projects around how to take some of the ideas that we are working with here that you talk about on your podcast, max and, and create businesses or social enterprises. And there's students from all over the world. About a third are from Asia, about a third from Africa, and about a third from Europe and North America. And it's so exciting just to see these students that really are, are schooled in a different way of thinking about the ways that innovation, business, government, nonprofits can create new solutions to trench problems. So that's fun. We'll get a lot of calls and a lot of office hours times with my students. So that's a lot of, it's taking my time at the moment. Well, well, thank you for sharing that with us. So the, the, the whole show is about leadership and making it really practical. And, and one of the things that you talk about is entrepreneurship. And when I think about leadership in business, I think about entrepreneurs, right? The people that are innovating, changing things making things better for the whole world, in what better way to do them with social, you know, social enterprises and social entrepreneurship. I know that that's a very close near and dear to your hearts. Can, can you tell me a little bit about where that came from? How did you become passionate about, you know, the social wellbeing leadership and connecting those dots? You know, I, and I think we came, both, came out in different directions. My background is my parents were entrepreneurs in the hospitality industry. I grew up around restaurants, hotels, hospitality businesses, and I was also very interested in the, the application of those ideas to solving social problems and environmental problems. I had a brother and another members, another members of my family and mentors who were interested in solving environmental problems, and I thought, how can you combine the forces of entrepreneurship business with solving social problems, which is, as you know, has become a, a whole movement. There are companies like Patagonia, there's companies that are really see that intersection between business government, nonprofits as, as a, a real driver. And increasingly business schools, leading universities are doing research and teaching courses in this area. So I am convinced, and I've worked in many of these social enterprises, just to get practical that are, that are really blending of different approaches. One of the examples we talk about in the book and that I've worked on for a long time is around our area, around GoldenGate national parks where there's 10 former military bases that were transitioned in a national parks and there's no way the government had the resources to be able to. To pay for or make these, so they had to come up with, with really interesting partnership solutions. Alcatraz is a great example. People come from all over the world to visit Alcatraz, not knowing it's a social enterprise. It's it's owned by the government. There's a for-profit carrier that takes you back and forth. There's a nonprofit that runs the bookstores and does audio tours, and it spins off 14, sometimes 20 million to support the national parks. But the multiplier effects for the Greater Bay Area are massive because of tourism and and all the associated benefits. People stay an extra day in this region just to visit this former prison. And so that's a great example and we could talk extensively about it, but I am convinced, and I see it a lot in my students, that this intersection of the skills needed to bring together business, government, nonprofits, is really the future to solving big problems. I, I really love that approach and I'll give Daniel a chance to, to, to gimme an answer to the question I posed previously. But I just love the idea. And for our audience, I think this is super powerful. We tend to see the government as either getting in our way or just another client. And I think that you guys are saying, switch your mindset, start seeing them as a partner. Mm-hmm. Because together we could accomplish a whole lot more than just a client or some, you know, like an org, something that's getting in your way. So really appreciate that perspective. So Daniel, your, your passion for, again, social entrepreneurship working, working and leading with people. Where, where does it come from? Yeah, max, I just wanted, before I answer that, just briefly say, I think you're absolutely right. And just as a sort of Yes. And to cleave, I think, you know, I, through this job get to sit down with leaders at the National Park Service, which are, you know our, many of our clients partner with the National Park Service very closely, and I'm always intrigued that. While even those nonprofits may get frustrated working with the National Park Service and the rules that they have to partner with, the people in the National Park Service are the ones who are saying, no, we, you know, the leaders are saying, we want to see more innovation. We want to see more, you know partnership that leads to, you know, different ways that we meet the visitors' needs. We understand that getting into parks is harder and it's changing. And so I just wanna reiterate that. But I think for me, you know, it's I was trying to think of like the answer to your question, where it came from, and I think it's a sense of injustice mixed with creativity. I would say. I mean, when I was, I mean, we're going way back here. When I was like in kindergarten, I was always telling the teacher that they were being mean, not because they were picking on me, but picking on other students. Like, I was immediately stepping up. I just had this sense of feeling like. Maybe my own difference showed up in other people's difference and I've always just been attracted to connecting to people different than me. And that's led all the way up until I got my MBA where I became friends and closer to all the international classmates, many more than the Americans. And in fact, I married one of them, so I married international classmate. So I think there's that sense of just really like wanting to connect and understand the challenges people face. And then I think there's that creative side of me. I ended up going into nonprofit theater and film as a career and was a storyteller. And I think if you find yourself more in that entrepreneurial storytelling world, where I think entre entrepreneurs are storytellers as well, you know, it's interesting to think about impact and what. What you wanna do with your voice. Cuz you are somebody who is creative, you are somebody who is thinking differently and you have an opportunity if you're an entrepreneur, if you think differently to do something that is going to better the world. Cause not a lot of people have that chance to be like, I, I see a problem and I'm the kind of person who could play around and build a solution to that. And so I think Cle and I are really specifically speaking to people, whether they know it or not, yet, that could potentially po pose solutions to our world. And we're hoping that somebody would pick up our book and pick up our other thought leadership and say, huh, I never thought I was the kind of person, maybe I'm not an entrepreneur, but maybe I could be within my own company, within my own community. I have some, I have a voice and here's a little bit of a roadmap on how to use that voice. So I think that's ultimately always what we're after is inspiring people to see that power that is, that is powerful and cool. And it, and it sounds to me like you identified your values really, really kind of early on. And, and and used them to, to guide you in your decision making and kind of have that bring you to where you are, to where you are now on on. That's true. Both of us, I think. I think that's what we, even though we're very different people, I think you're absolutely right. I think that's what connects the two of us a lot. That that is, that, that is to me, like the most powerful motivators. What, when you're, when you're aligned with what matters to you, then you know nothing can get in your way and you're gonna accomplish beyond, beyond your dreams. So let's talk about the idea, the concept of leadership. I'm always curious to know where people first learned about this thing called leadership, right? The fact that there are leaders and people that are not leaders out there. I'm, I'm curious to know where you guys first learned about the concept. And I would, you know, I would say, I question the whole concept of the way we teach leadership, particularly in the United States. So I am maybe gonna question the premise of your question which is to say, and we do this a lot, is yeah, I think particularly United States, we, we tend to show this hero leader, this hero entrepreneur, that that is, you know, the kind of classic Steve Jobs or Sheryl Sandberg or somebody who is just, you know, and, and it's just not true. And it, you know, goes through our history. One of the great examples that that is often talked about is, is Edison, you know, he, he, he didn't invent the light bulb and you could go back through all these stories that, that we, you know, tell, he built the infrastructure to allow. You know, ac kern and a light bulb to succeed, you know, and there's so many of these. So, you know, I would an, you know, the, the first leader, just to get to your question that really inspired me was actually a government leader who realized he couldn't do it all through himself. And so often it doesn't matter for in business or government or nonprofits, we, we get this martyr leader, you know, we're gonna charge. And, and then it's just, it. I think it's ineffective. I think, frankly, I think it's destructive. So the leaders inspire me are the people that bring along movements the Gandhi, the Martin Luther Kings, the people that are. If you really go below the surface, they've, they've cultivated real change, but it's not about them. I mean, Gandhi had a vast infrastructure around him to support his work. Same thing with Martin Luther King. Same thing with anybody. So I'm really interested in retelling that narrative of leadership. And it really goes to some, some themes we talk about of thinking like a system, acting like a network, and leading like a movement. Because and I see this a lot with the generations I teach in university, is they're, they're leading different, you know, because they've grown up with social media, social movements, they're UpSpring a lot of things that are, that are pretty dramatic. And those traditional structures of, of business, of those hierarchical structures are falling away. And so I'm interested in really different kinds of leaders. Thank you. Daniel, how about you? This whole concept of leadership, where did you first kind of become aware of it or know about it, or how has it evolved over the years? Yeah, I mean, I, I think CLE put it really, really great, but I think, you know, when you get your M B A suddenly it's just leadership, leadership, leadership. And it's very weird to suddenly be there, right? You don't, you know, it do, you don't necessarily, as someone going through your life in a professional world, think leadership's something you study until you step back and it is what you study. So I think for me it was, it's always about telling, you know, someone you know is that, I know you're on, okay, got a dog. We got a dog joining us who's very, very much with me on that thought. You know, it, it was always about you know, I learned it from, you know, stepping up and feeling like I needed to run a company in order to, you know, put something out in the world. So it was like someone, I need to be a leader here. I need to start helping people see what my vision is. And, you know, you learn a lot by doing it. And I think it was weird to then realize there were a lot of theories that I could have been thinking about that whole time. And I, so I think Cleve and I are very much united on, there are skills that you learn and a lot of those are taught in schools. And then a lot of the ones that we put in our book, I feel like aren't taught in schools. You know, a good example would be sort of listening. That's always been a big one for me, right? Like, we don't actually teach how to listen to other people and reflect and help them grow through that. We think that that's a quality of a good leader, but we don't get into that. So I think it's just been interesting to see the things that I've developed. And I imagine this is true of anyone who considers themselves a leader, which I hope most people do. You know, you have these innate skills you develop that start becoming, you start finding words for, but when you're first going out about it, it's really a lot of experimentation. And it will always continue to be experimentation if you're a lifelong learner. As I, as I think of myself, Thank you. And, and, and I think that more and more we're waking up to that idea that hero led businesses are, are farce, right? And, and when you actually talk to real powerful leaders, people that have done great things, they will always say it's about the team and it's about the team. And it's about the team. So if, if you're one of those companies out there that feel that you've gotta carry the burden, you are the leader, you have to have all the answers, you have to have all the, all the solutions, then, then you're not really leading, right? You're just, you're, you're just, you're just putting the weight on your shoulders. And, and the business will never bloom and blossom because you know it needs you versus leveraging the power of a team. One of, one of the things I'll, I'll just point out cuz this is, this is something that comes up in several of, of my, of my podcast, which is if you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Right. You've gotta have people that are really good in their areas, and you gotta listen to them and support them and, and help them be the best that they can be. And in your book, one of the things that I really liked is that it, you know it, it gives you practical ways of doing it. And it, and it points out some ideas, some ideas that we can say, well, you know, I kind of knew about that and some ideas. I'm like, Hmm, never really thought about it. Never, never, never knew about, about, about that idea or, or this other idea. Let, let's talk just a little bit about the book. It connects so well with the podcast three, three key sections there. What, what do you guys think in terms of the mindset of leadership that, you know, we need to change? So one is from hero led right to, to team led big idea. What are some other big mindset misconceptions or evolutions that, you know, we, we, we need to transform? Our audience needs to understand. I think, you know, a core thing to the book to me is sort of this concept is self-reinforcing silos. That often even if we think we're trying to be thoughtful around our leadership, we are just actually looking at people that are like us, that are in the same industry as us. You know, even those of us who are, you know, I'm always impressed we go to go, go to conferences and really go to every session and try to learn, but usually that conference is your industry conference, right? You're still kind of learning from the people in your place, and that is totally natural. We go into this in the book a little bit. Plenty of sociological studies that we all like to go to the groups that we're affinity with, and that, that there's a lot of reason for that and there's a lot of strength to that. But I think, you know, for me, the book really, it breaks down into these three se these three sections. Think like a system, act like a network and lead like a movement. And it all starts by stepping back and saying, what is the system in which I operate? What are the biases that I bring into this? What are the voices I'm hearing and not hearing? And really trying to understand how things work. And by doing that, think about how that applies to what you can possibly change and grow to build something new, to build some more positive outcome for your business, or a positive outcome for your community. And then it's about stepping out of that and saying, how do I get the right people around me in that act like a network moment, which is how do I, you know, connect to people who may have different perspectives and may I be asking different questions and connect them to each other, which is very much, I think the point we've been saying throughout this, which is it's not about doing alone, right? It's about actually getting more boats in the water and not about being the biggest boat to quote someone that we use in the book. And then it's that lead, like a movement part I think is a really you know, it's a, it's a little bit more nuanced and finessing and I think. You have to do these other steps to get there. You can't just jump right into that, right? You have to really be able to start bringing other voices into your sphere to then organize them and shape them and move them forward. And one of the things I always bring up in our presentations around movement is a great Ted Talk by Derek Sivers called How to Make a Movement. And you see this person kinda like dancing really wildly in the screen behind them at a festival and everyone just sort of hanging out and then suddenly another person joins them and starts dancing really wildly alongside them. And before long it's a wonderful Ted talk also, cuz it's only three minutes, which makes it so easy to get through great public speaking. Teaching before long, everyone is out there dancing and having a great time at this festival and he talks about how important that second person is, that follower making the choice to go along with it. And so when you think about leadership in that context, I think you're also saying, you know, it's about understanding who you are, where and where, where you are, but also creating an environment. That you're sharing space with other people and inviting them into that space in ways that may not be so clear, but you're able to, by seeing how things all connect and work, that if you start dancing wildly in that moment, in that festival, then it's gonna work. If you were just dancing wildly out on the street, probably people aren't gonna run up to you, but you're thinking about how to create a space for other people to be leaders. In this case, he calls'em followers to move in. I think that's the path of the book, and I think it really all starts with sort of stepping outside yourself, studying and looking around you. I stole everything. Cle you have no answer left cuz that's the entire book. Well, there's, there's so much more depth in, in there, so I'll, I'll let Cleveland kinda share his thoughts. Well, you know, the, the thing that I'm been aware of through my work and through the, the practical application of a lot of these ideas is we're, we have, we're encountering just. Really large scale problems and we're aware of them in so many ways. And you just take, for example, the pandemic that we've all been through. You know, developing a vaccine is, is a perfect example of what we've been talking about in this podcast, right? You to, to develop and deploy a vaccine. It's not a solo enterprise at all. It's not even a one sector enterprise. You know, the you need, scientists need to work with business people. They need to work with funders, they need to work with government agencies. That is taking some of the risk outta system. And you need to work with community groups to deploy and make sure that vaccines are distributed widely. Inequitably. So, and you can make the same argument about developing a housing development in a, in a community. The best housing developers know how to work with C communities, how to get unusual sources of funding from government agencies, community block grants, community agencies, so, These skills are often not taught, which is really the drive that I had for doing this research and then teaching it and writing this book is because so many people have learned it the hard way. And we have found that you can look and find particular skills that can be taught. And that gets us away from telling the hero story of the solo entrepreneur and really makes it something learnable because people, none of us are gonna be like our, our predecessors. We're our own unique people and have unique attributes and challenges and opportunities that come with those. And so we're interested in this book and, and through teaching and through consulting and helping people develop those skills that will help accelerate those changes because these changes that we're seeing in climate and social justice and equity are gonna demand a whole different skillset than our parents or grandparents had. Hmm. So you guys, you guys have given me a lot and, and there's so many doors I could go through right now. I, I wanna go through a, a few doors that I think will be interesting to our audience. And the first one is this idea of, you know I guess, I guess I'm gonna interpret this cuz this is something I see you can't lead alone. Great. I need a management team. Great. Let me hire great people. And, and then you've got them all working in their own dungeons, right? And, and I think that the big idea is that you, great people need to be polished up and sharpened by other great people and, and interacting and challenging and learning and pushing and driving each other. How, how do you, how do you guys propose that that happens? Right? Because I'm like, oh you know, I've got a great marketing person, let them do their job and they, they'll bring out the outcomes, and then they're working on this silo that we're, that's exactly what we're trying to avoid. What are some tools, what are, what are some advice on, on how to integrate really have a, have a team that's well integrated and not, and not, you know, individualized. Max. I love that you bring that up because while we studied people who do this on quite a large level, you know, one of the things that was a tragedy for me is when we were thinking about another name for this book I suggested it to a good friend of mine and they were like, oh, that sucks cuz that book's not gonna be for me. You know, that book's only for people who do public-private partnerships. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. This book is for you sitting at your desk working with your team. This book is just as applicable to a marketing person trying to work with an engineering person as it is to a government person trying to work with a major leader of private corporation. And here's the thing in both of those circumstances, you're talk, talking a lot about language, right? You are literally often speaking different languages. We think about that around national and cultural terms, right? In terms of actual language. But we forget that. Silicon Valley people and Wall Street people speak different languages. Finance people and marketing people speak different languages. And sometimes that's the actual terms. And sometimes it's just the way that they think about the world and think about business challenges. Someone's thinking more about their brand and about their products. Someone else is thinking more about efficiency. Someone's thinking about creating something new and, and how that, how that works and someone else is thinking about how the audience and the person buying, it's gonna appreciate it, right? And so the best moments where that comes together is when you hear what the other person brings forward. And you start by what often is referred to as code switching. Code switching is a very challenging term. It can mean something pretty. Painful often, especially if you're someone who's a minority in this country and feel like you have to put on a fake voice to be part of it. But what code switching ultimately is, is you take on the persona of someone else, right? So you kind of maybe are mirroring their movements or their language. We do this all the time with our friends, right? When you're the different kind of friend, you often become the relaxed person or the intellectual person. We code switch all the time, but when we have a best friend, what we do really well is we do what's called code mixing. We take a little bit of their language and a little bit of our language, and the way we approach'em becomes this sort of, we don't even remember who started what and how it came together. And so we suggest an opportunity for teams and for any of these situations to start thinking about how you can. Take on some of the language, whether that be actually researching around engineering and understanding engineering a little deeper and becoming more of a subject matter expert. If you're the marketing person asking questions again and listening to, I don't understand why you approach this, this way. And then also just being very aware of how they show up in meetings, what the presentation of their clothing, their expectations are, and then as a team to find that opportunity to say, okay, you speak a little bit this way. I speak a little bit this way. How can we find that way that we both feel comfortable, that can be useful for us? And so we, we really encourage people to think about that code mixing and co-creation to find that their own team can have its own diversity of language that is its own. That's one approach I would come up with. Excellent. So one of the big ideas is, You, you need, you need to get on the same page in terms of the same language and learn, learn each other's languages and what is important to them. How they value what, how they, how they view the world, what they need to accomplish. And I, and I love the idea of stepping into somebody else's shoes and, and for a moment living in their world and seeing what is important to them. And, and then this, this code mixing, right? Like that, that is a powerful concept. I'm curious how to implement it consciously. Cause you know, going back to your example, you're with friends, you're having a conversation where you've been with your spouse for a long time, and clearly those codes have been mixed. How do you do it consciously in a, in an, in an organizational way. So we can, we can get back to that Cleveland might have some other, some other thoughts on the previous point. Well, I, I think it's related in, in many ways. You know, we, one of the things that we often hear and we tell entrepreneurs and, and we, we have a culture of doing is, is networking. Which, if you're an introvert is painful, if you're, you know, for a lot of people it's just, it's hard. Well, we actually take issue with the whole idea of, of networking because it's not necessarily about going out and hitting your business cards at a conference where you feel comfortable and meeting people that are like you. It's about building a network and being very conscious about those skillsets, those approaches, those people that will help bring skillsets to you in that process. And, and that often means getting out of your comfort zone. And that's part of what develops those skills of the code missing that Daniel was talking about. And it's really essential in, in a lot of ways because just having a net worth of a lot of. A lot of people that are just like you is, is not gonna be helpful. You need to have a network that is diverse. It has a lot of what, what they call loose ties or weak ties, excuse me. And that can bring new domains of expertise, knowledge, skills to your approach. And many of us just have a lot of people that are a lot like us in our network. And so therefore, we're speaking the same language. We're taking the sca, same skills, and we're not billing out new approaches to solving problems and bring and driving innovation. So we encourage our clients when we're working with them. We encourage our students, we encourage people that we meet to use LinkedIn to spend time on the web to spend time doing what we, what we learned from mentor around connet storming, which we talk about in the book to develop what is that network that you consciously want to have that will get you to where you want to go. And often that's people that speak very different professional languages and often di different linguistic histories. So you know, that's the biggest advice I'd have for, for the listeners is to co be a more conscious and, and even map out the network you have and the network that you want to get to. And Max, I would say on that consciousness, on a very personal level, I think Cleves right on the sort of the work to get there in terms of your network. And then I think on a very direct level, that one thing I already mentioned, the mirroring, I think is actually a really important thing to practice. You often learn this about this in interviews, but it doesn't have to be just interviews, which is just Right now I see you, you got your hand up like this. So I'm gonna put my hand up as well. And I'm gonna just sort of put myself in your place. I'm now, I have a background in theater, remember, so this is very easy for me. But you don't have to be so obvious, right? Like, it's just more about you know, noticing, observing, and trying to kind of take on. How someone dresses a little bit. How to, you know is it a formal atmosphere? Are you someone who are you noticing your boss tends to talk about personal, emotional feelings and maybe you step your foot into that. That cleave is my boss in real life and he often starts his spaces with gratitude for people or for checking in on how everyone's doing. So as I leave my own meetings, I'm just practicing that, putting the gratitude out, seeing how I feel. So that's one thing. And then I think I also referred to this earlier on a group mentality. In terms of code mixing, we really encourage this idea of yes and so, yes. And is actually again, from the theater world, it comes from improv theater. And what it means is basically you don't say no or put down someone's idea, but you build on that idea. Doesn't mean you agree with that idea. You can actually disagree and say yes and by saying, okay, that's an interesting point. I also call this curious skepticism. It makes me think that maybe we should also be thinking about something else. Yes. And I am saying, I validate what you're bringing up. I may not agree, but it's making me think that we should go in a different direction. And so what happens is you're building off of someone else's idea and therefore you're incorporating their language and adding your language on top of it. And so often with our own clients as consultants, we get into this wonderful Yes. And experiences where we see teams starting to. Validate and appreciate and then add something to it. And before long that is a co-created shared language that they've allowed space for. But instead of necessarily negating or disagreeing in a way that is actively saying, I actually have a different perspective that should trump yours in this case. So those were two very practical, one on a personal level and one on a team level. Ways I think of, of putting this into play as well as cleves idea of just your own research and work around your network, which is a really important element. Really, really appreciate your thoughts. They are, they are all practical. They're, they, they are all things. Our audience can go out and start practicing today, so it's extra, extra valuable. So thank you guys so much and there's, and you've given me a lot. I, I want to touch on a couple of points that you guys made just to kind of double down on them. And, and, and the first one's about networking. So people think that networking is where you go and you get clients, right? You hand out your business card, get business cards, and I really like your, your idea of this is where you meet people with diverse knowledge, skills, experience, and, and, and you should make an inventory of that because you're, you're gonna need that. And as humans, we're not necessarily attracted to that because, you know, like attract, like, so you know, you're gonna go look for the people that look like you, act like you, feel like you, and, and actually you should do the opposite, which makes me reflect on some of the leaders that I work with are great recruiters of people. They're great recruiters of talent. And you know, like eight outta 10 times they'll tell me that they knew someone, right? I, I'd met them, I'd known them. I, I saw them. I was here, I was there. And I'm like, whoa, that was three years ago in a conference half across the country. And you remember that person? It's like, yeah, we were talking and blah, blah, blah. So I remembered his name and then called him up, called her up, you know, and, and, and next thing you know pointed me to this direction, ended up hiring her. So the value of your network and the people that you know, and not from the perspective of who can buy from me or who can I sell to, but rather who has knowledge, skills, abilities that can be of benefit to my, to my organization. So love that. A little game that, that I, that I, that I've played a few times, being a little bit of an introvert, going to networking events or talking to people is, is a mirroring game, right? Where you are actually very consciously trying to mirror and connect with people and it kind of takes a away your shyness, it takes away your preoccupation on yourself and you know, your, your likelihood of being liked or not, and all those different things, and, and you're just, you're just having fun. And it's amazing to see what happens. Right. It's, it's, it's just amazing to see how, how you can make people feel when you're focused on them. Mm. And using your, your skills. So I really appreciate that. And then we talked about some even more practical yes. And approach. I, I love that because it never puts the heart stop on anyone, right? Like it's the first thing that I learned about brainstorming is all ideas go. So you're saying, you know, all conversations are valid and you cannot act. You can add, and you can kind of guide or direct and in the idea of cure skepticism, which is, I don't fully get it. I don't fully understand it, but let me ask some more and dive a little deeper. And maybe there's, there's something there. So lots, lots of great things we could, we could spend an hour on, on just each of each of these subjects. Or you can go and read the book. So that'll be, that'll be super valuable as well. Let me switch to another of the subjects that you guys mentioned a little while ago, making room for other leaders. This, this is a big one. In, in, in the world that I live in I work with a lot of entrepreneurs that have built success on their shoulders, have, have grown their business and want to continue to grow it, and are having this ch you know, psychological challenge spiritual challenge in many ways, right? Because they're, they're, they're fighting against their, their, their egos and, and having to let go of, of control, of having the answers of bringing other people, having other people look really good in front of the group or team where, where they had been the leaders before. So that's kind of like the context of, of, of this, right? What, what, what do we do with them? How do, how do we help them overcome that? And, and how do, how do they make room to develop other leaders? And, and this goes for all levels, but, you know, top levels. Something I, I'm familiar with. I would love to make Cleve answer this cuz he's way better at it. I am. Okay, so that's, so that's how you do it, people, that's how you do it. I was gonna refer to Daniel. You know, it's a great question and I have long believed that the, that the most effective leaders are, are self-reflective. And you know, it's taking time and, you know, I've developed a pretty robust meditation practice and that I start out every day with at least 10 minutes of, of silence where it can help me with all the other voices that come in of any leader, any entrepreneur to, to be a little more reflective in my work and to, to manage my ego, right? I think we all have egos. This is a struggle for most human beings, which is why mindfulness practice goes back thousands of years. Contemplative practice goes back. And I'm not talking about anything that's just, you know, crazy difficult. There's a million apps out there that's 10 minutes that, that are available for free. I think that really helps. And then I think to get even more practical to your, to your question I see this as a skill that needs to be developed. I think the identifying, you know, when I wanted to become an entrepreneur, as you know, went to, to business skill to learn some business schools to learn some skills I didn't have, like finance, like marketing like organizational behavior. These are all skills that I identified that in order to be a more effective business person, I needed to. Develop and learn, you know, counting finance, reading financial statements. And I think this ability to grow other leaders, to harness other leaders and to let go is like anything else in life. It gets better with practice and you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna have failures. But for my company to be successful, it has to exist without me or the work of The work that Martin Luther King did, he had to inspire other leaders. I'm not putting myself on that, that plane by the way. It's just a person who inspires me. But I think that this whole idea of, of a solo entrepreneur just gets us in trouble or solo movement builder. So I think it is something that one has to practice and one has to take time. I believe I certainly do every day to sit in silence. Sometimes that's hours a day. If I could make it time when I'm on, on vacation to, to better harness myself and to, to keep my own ego and check, wouldn't, I think we all have that. Thank you. So I'll, I'll summarize a couple of things. So I think that the mindset of understanding that the business has to be able to go on without you is, is, is a really. Powerful starting point, because then you're like, okay, if this business is gonna have to go on without me, then I'm gonna have to have great, great people and great leaders, and I'm gonna be gone at some point. So that kinda really changes things. Then I think the idea of, I need to develop certain skills that I don't currently have, and so often now people are thinking about the, you know, hard skills, the, the, you know, the finance and the marketing and the systems and the processes. But and I hate that I, I don't really like the concept of hard skills and soft skills, because typically we tend to like hard, more than soft. Nobody likes exactly you know, regular strength, anything. Everybody wants extra strength. So, so the, the idea here is the, the skills that have to do with developing people letting go of your ego being, being vulnerable, listening, all those other skills are skills that can be acquired. And, and I really believe that, you know, this is my inspiration for this podcast, is that I believe that everything can be learned and you can become so much better at anything you want to, and you guys are just doubling down on that. Be mindful of what skills you need to develop. How, how do you become mindful? Meditation, silence, contemplation, thinking, scary thing to do with if you're, if you're, if, if you haven't done it before, right? You, you'll, you'll hear a lot of things coming out of your head and you'll see things and you'll be scared and you'll, you're gonna want to be distracted. But like anything with practice, you get so much better. So really, really appreciate that direction for, for, for our audience. Daniel, how about you? What are, what are your thoughts on, on making room for other leaders? My thoughts are and I wasn't kidding. Cleve does it really, really well, and I think you know, look, we just wrote a book called Don't Lead Alone, and this book is based off of Cleves Research. And what did he do? He invited a co-author into. Writing the book. I mean, we literally practiced these things as we were writing it, which is what made it such a worthy endeavor. So I say sort of tongue in cheek, write a book with someone else. That's how you learn to do it. But I, what I mean by that is, You know have the humility to step back and, and try something that, you know, you can't do well without someone else's strength. And whether that, maybe that can't happen in your business currently, maybe you are really the engine, the drives. So find a way in your own life to have that happen. Find your way to join a board of directors and see what other strengths come in. And for a nonprofit that you're supporting, find a way to get involved in a community or your local your h o a, you know, and just see how you can step back and bring in other people's strengths and, and practice that in environments that feel safe. We talk a lot around small experimentation in the book, and I mean, quite seriously cuz I can be the type of leader who fe fears, if he steps away, things are gonna fall apart. And I know what that's like and that's okay. There's some validity. To strong leaders, especially if you built your organization on that, then you're a little bit in trouble. So you really do need to do these small safe experiments, and they may need to happen outside of the office to practice giving away a little bit of that power. And, and then notice the result. And like any good experiment, I always say when I coach clients around small experiments, I say there's two things. One is it needs to be a risk that you can take and not be punished for. That's what makes it small, right? There's the word small in it. It also is a word experiment, which remembers experiment isn't something you try once, you try it multiple times. That's how discoveries happened. And you may not even know what you're trying to discover yet. And it may be something else. And so if it fails, that's okay. Accepting failure, learning from failure. We, we talk about a wonderful author, Randy Posh, who wrote the last lecture, which unfortunately was about his last lecture before dying at two 11 age. And he has his first penguin award. He gives his engineering students, if you think about penguins, they walk in a line and then one of them has to jump into the water and then a seal eats them. And he gives an award to that penguin for that mistake that that penguin made because no one else would jump in the water. So you have to give yourself the same leeway you would to concur someone else's innovation, which is to make a mistake, learn from it, and experiment again. I, I love that because it, it clarifies our approach, right? Failure is, is okay, and you're saying let's fail in, in, in a contained environment, right? In, in an experi in, in the context of an experiment. Cuz we are gonna learn so much and evolve from there, plus, It's not meant that, you know, this change doesn't mean it's gonna, it's gonna stand forever. So it kind of gives people more openness to realize that it may or may not be the right thing. And they don't fear, like the permanence of that change. And they can, and they can, they can learn from it. How about the, the, the other, so one, one is like, Hey, you built this business by yourself or you, you know, like the business can't really survive without you, and now you're being called to bring in other people and make them other leaders. What do you say to, to the other side of that, which is, yeah, I, I, I trust other people, but that's my self worth, right? I am this business. I've built it. What happens when other people, you know, get the credit? What happens if I'm not needed in this business anymore? And, and, and what? You know, what's my meaning and purpose in life if I'm not this business anymore? How do you deal with that? I think CLE and I are both united by the fact that we went back to school at a little bit of a later age and we went back to learn. And for me personally, I mean, I did kind of flame outta my career. I'll be honest. You know, I was running a, a theater nonprofit. I was really building that sort of nonprofit arts career, and my organization didn't end up making the money I wanted to make. It was a struggling business. I didn't feel happy being creative anymore as much as I loved it. And I had to, you know, really step back and ask big questions about life and what my role was and go through that, that work. So I think for me, you know, the answer is just sort of, Step back and get back in a learning place. And whether that means going full-time into MBA or just signing up for some online workshop, but just being surrounding yourself with other learners I think is the key. I took an IDEO workshop shortly after that happened. Wonderful design thinking firm. And it was funny cuz most people who were taking the workshop were doing it for their business. And I came in, they're like, okay, what's your business challenge you're trying to face? I was like, it's figuring out what I want to do with my life. You know? And people loved it because it gave me that space to be vulnerable with them as they were going through that. And I got to practice their challenges. So, you know, I don't think you need to step back and sign up for two years at full-time school. Like, like Cleveland I did, and then Cleveland got his PhD so even more. But I think there's something united around our two stories of approaching the learning moment and, and going in deep to that and saying, It's okay for me, if it's okay for me to step back and look at this, this might be a, again, a leadership moment for me that I can signal to the, to my whole team that we're all learning. And I think we do that all the time in our consulting firm. We step back and we signal, let's all talk about this and figure out this together. So that would be my life lesson that I certainly feel like can be applied again in some safer ways than maybe doing a full-time mba. Excellent. So reflect on yourself and, and, and how, how you need to evolve, right? Like kind of get clear about what your next step is, which will make it more comfortable for you to kind of step out of a role and make, you know, make space for something new. And if you're around other learners and put yourself in a position with other learners, that was the other key. Like put yourself in a position to be around people who may be asking the same question. That's, I think so important if you're not someone whose instinct allows you to do that as much. Very cool. I think there's a lot to, to say for that learning. I really liked that we were talking about that because, and this is another concept for mindfulness of beginner's mind, right? From Buddhism and beginner's mind. If you, if you assume you know it, you're really not learning anymore. And it's a little like putting on you know, someone else's shoes literally, or trying to write your name with your non-dominant hand. You know, you, you realize you have to be a lot more thoughtful and and conscious and, and focused in what you're doing. And that allows you to see things in, in new ways. Been really struck recently. My I have a teenage son and, and there's this trend with college students now where they're going back to film photography. And I love it because this is a, this is a generation that grew up with digital cameras where, where photos were cheap. They were not, they were, there was, you know, they didn't mean anything, right. You just take pictures and everything. Well, he's having to go consciously and think about the composition of every photo because they're going back to developing the film in in dark rooms and using enlargers, which just seem like old technology. But he's actually learning and becoming a much better digital photographer because he's having to learn a different way and approach. And, and I, I love that. And it's not just him. I'm seeing it with some of his peers from other universities and, and places. And it's getting back to the book and, and working together. You know, I, Dan Daniel's a theater person. I, I'm not an actor in any sense of the word, right. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an environmental leader. An educator and, and I learned so much. And was it always No, absolutely not. We have some really uncomfortable moments and, you know, I would think one of the things I would say to your listeners is in some ways, what, what are you afraid of really? Right? Like what when it's, it just back to the, you know, writing with your non-dominant hand or, or you know, changing the way you walk or trying on a different pair of shoes or whatever the, the, the activity is, is it's uncomfortable, but is it really threatening and, you know? Yes. We develop skills and by discomfort, by pushing ourselves. You know, finance and was, was my least comfortable class in business school, which is exactly why I took it, because the things I'm comfortable with, I'll figure out on my own. But I think we have to also push ourselves as leaders to try those things that are uncomfortable and to learn from them and to fall down sometimes, which is exactly what I love about what Daniel just said, and I, what I love about our partnership because I think we, we are so accustomed to wanting to be comfortable and being around those that are, are like us that we, we frankly stop learning and stop growing really. I really appreciate that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna summarize it this little, this little section with kind of like the last thing I heard, right? Cause the, some, some of the, the question that I had is like, how do you know what you need to be learning about? And, and I think you said it, what makes you uncomfortable? That's what you need to go learn and. You have a beginner's mind. Two, two things because that's when you're gonna be able to identify and learn new things. And you know, you, you, you pay attention to some nuances that, that improve your level of mastery, even on things that you might already, already know. And the, the o the other big idea is, is something that I'm like a huge proponent of, and, and that is know the fundamentals, right? When, when you know the fundamentals of what you're working with. It's just gonna make you so much better. Even if the fundamentals are like 10 levels below the level you're working at, you still need to know those fundamentals. And in this case you know, like the, the, the film photography, you know, you can't have a thousand shots and Photoshop them, which means you're going back to those fundamentals, right? And, and by being good at that, it'll make you good at everything else. And I think that that happens a lot in business as well, right? We skip over the fundamentals and, and we're not working on communication. We're not working o on leadership. We're, you know, we're, we're like trying to play. We're trying to make some fancy plays, and we forget about these, these critical fundamental pieces that we're gonna need in business. And I love the idea, what are you afraid of? And I think that question of what are you afraid of is very powerful. Whether it's what's your next stage in life, your next step in business, the next thing you need to learn. Because I think that there's a lot of, it contains a big message. And, and I think that you guys bringing it up means if you can figure out what you're afraid of it, it might point you in the right direction. So we could probably extend this podcast for a couple of more hours here, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna attempt a little summary and while I'm summarizing you guys can think because I'm sure I've missed some things that you guys would like to talk about or comment on. So whenever I'm done with a, with with my summary, kinda I'll ask you, right? Like, what have I not asked you that we need to talk about? But I think, I think a few things in the, the big idea is the government is your friend, not only your client. We're getting in your way. Try, try to work with them. Find, find ways to connect and, and add value. And, and it opens up a huge possibility for social entrepreneurship. And I think that the point here is, you know, social entrepreneurship is the way that we solve big, big, big problems together. And we can all win and we can make money. So it's, it's a great combination. Hero leadership is a farce, right? These big heroes that we see and hear and revere. The fact is they never do it by themselves. They're always really great people around. And even if they were, they're like one in a billion. So that, you know, your odds are low anyway. You know, it's, it's all about people and it's all about team. And I think that the best leaders are those that inspire movements, as you guys were saying, right? So your focus is not, your focus is to inspire, inspire movements and the book. And the book definitely goes into more detail on how to do those things. Stop looking for people that are like you. Cause that's not where you're gonna find that diversity. That's not where you're gonna find the compliments to your team and to your, and, and into your gaps, whether it's in your organization or to yourself. So when you're networking, it's not about, Exchanging carts, it's about learning about other people and keeping track of what value you could give to them and what value they can bring if you were to work together with them. What systems do I operate in? I think that's such a huge, that's such a huge concept. I think a lot of people operate in systems that they don't, they don't even recognize that they're operating in a system. So the moment you challenge it, you can put yourself in a, in a, in a, in a better system and recognize what's working for you, what's not working for you, and how you could go to evolve that. We talked about people polishing other people, and there was a lot to be said about that. So let's see. What, what, what did we say here? We said a lot of things. You need to speak the same language. You cannot be siloed. So the idea of, hey, just bring some great people on board. That's just half of the job. The second part of the job is to get people to, to code switch, right? Where, where they can relate it to others better. That will lead you to code mixing, which is everybody becomes better because of each other. And I think that's just a powerful, powerful idea that, that everyone listening here really needs to contemplate. How do we build a team where each individual contributes to the wellbeing, not of just the organization, but of the team at an individual level. I think it's super strong idea. Let's see. Yes, and I really love that. Yes and improv. Never stop an idea, never stop the flow. Figure out what you need to learn about the idea and how you could, you know, it's okay to be skeptical, challenge it, but ask questions and dive deeper and really try to understand. And then the, the yes and might be where you can add the value of, have you considered this? Have you looked at that? And, and, and then you're co-creating versus directing or stopping the, the ideation. What skills need to be de developed. I, I really like that idea as well. What are the skills that you need to, to develop? What are the, the skills that your organization needs to develop and, and becoming aware of those. And I really like Cleveland really talks a lot about mindfulness meditation, you know, getting, getting I mean, it, it kinda starts diving into some spirituality conversations as well. And. Making sure that you have that time to reflect, to learn, and to, and to grow. One of the advice for making changes in, in your leadership style and how you go about in the world is small experiments. Test them out. And one way of doing that is by joining groups. So you get involved, you're, you're, you're a board member somewhere. You're in a homeowner association even. And, and if you're one of those, you know, leaders, you could say, let me step back. Let me, let me see how other people do it. Let me bring other people into the conversation. Let me you know, see how other people do it. And then thinking about experiments. And I, and I really like, not only the idea of experiments, but how you, you phrased it. It's a risk that you can take. So, so, you know, you might make you a little curious and I make you a little bit uncomfortable, but you're not making an experiment. Something that'll ruin your business either, right? So. Understanding that it's a risk that you can take and that you're gonna have to try multiple times. I think that's the other key. You're gonna have to iterate, iterate the experiment until you, until you find solutions. And if your expectation is, I'm gonna do a quick little experiment and I'm gonna get a yes or a no, then that's not the right mindset. It's a iterate until I find the solution. Surround yourself with other learners. The big idea is if you want to know what, how to grow, how to evolve, how to continue in your journey, surround yourself with other people that want the same thing. And that I also wanna learn that also want to grow, that are curious and like to share, you know, IEA ideas. And then we talked a little bit about the beginner's mindset, which is go at it as if you didn't know it, and you'll be able to find things and understand things in a better, deeper way, maybe in a way that you never even knew or understood before. Going back to basics and fundamentals, kind of the story about the college trend of using film again and getting really good at being able to take photograph you know, even digital pictures because now you really understand the fundamentals. And along the whole way there's this ego thing that's kind of just lurking in the background, right? Because that's what keeps us, tries to, keeps us safe, tries to keep it in the same place tries to avoid the risk of, of, of, of not leading alone. And you've gotta ask yourself, what am I afraid of? And kind of take it head on. I know I've probably missed a lot of things. You guys added so much value and there was so, so many great things. But these are just a few of the, of the ideas I kind of, I kind of picked up on related to that I really wanted to kind of point out and take a note on. I wanna ask you guys what did, what, what did I miss? Either in the summary or a question that I didn't ask that you would, you would like or, or, or a thought that you'd love to share? I know you probably have more than one, so I'll, I'll give you an opportunity now. You know, you summarized that really well. We've talked a lot. Absolutely. Two things that are coming coming to my mind. One is this potential for this intersection between business, government, and nonprofits is extraordinary. It's just massive. If you look around you and look around what's going on, You need these skills and these are learnable skills. So that's something I would leave your listeners with is you're not gonna do this in any one domain. You need to develop the skills that cross sectors and cross domains, so that we've talked about. But I would emphasize that imparting, because I think our educational systems and our culture tells us to specialize, specialize, specialize, which is fine to have those specialized skills, but you also need to develop those skills to be able to. Bring in other sectors and, and others to, to your work. There's no way you're gonna develop a housing development with any success if you can't work with community groups. You can't get funding from government agencies and you can't navigate through the permanent process. So I think that is, is key in almost any large scale projects that, that an entrepreneur or listeners would do. The second one that we haven't talked about at all that I, that I'm a, a big fan of and proponent of are, is the power of mentors. Find other people who have traveled this road. Before you I have found other people of the, the same genders often, or, or gender expression is often helpful. I know that I find other men that have traveled the journeys to be particularly helpful and also mentor and find mentors for people younger than you. I find that my students, I learn as much from my students as they learn from me because they see the world really differently. And so I think become a part of that community where you Daniel and I were just an event with, with one of my mentors who's 84 and his, he and his wife was 82, put on an event for us and you know, 30 years plus older than I, than we are. And then I have mentors that I'm talking to that are in their twenties this week. So you know, really find others around you that you can support and mentor and grow, and they will help grow you. Thank you. Powerful stuff, valuable stuff, Daniel. Yeah, I, I'm just sitting here thinking about how, again, I just love this partnership with Cleve cuz we are, you know, can be sometimes on the opposite ends in, in complimentary ways. So, you know, he says dive in a little deeper to people that maybe have the same gender expression in the road. And for me it's, you know, I find the most power in finding people that are completely not the same expression and the not the same road. And, and I think would agree with that too. Right. You know, and so I'm sitting, one of the things I would say as a takeaway is the power of just going up to someone different than yourself in new situations. I had a reputation in my M B A that I would follow, I would sit next to a different person and I would disrupt all the seating arrangement throughout the whole class. And much people dismay, cuz everyone, we, we do this naturally, right? You'd sit down to someone next, to someone the first day and that's the person he's next to. And I just found that to be, Not an interesting approach to learning for myself. I just wanted to connect to someone else. And, you know it takes some bravery to go up to someone completely different than yourself. And it takes a little active, and it can be energy, energy burn. So you, again, the same thing, doing it, choosing it, all that kind of stuff. And then relatedly, you know, I tend to come at this work. I love that Cleve thought about sort of the big picture, which is to absolutely work outside your silo and Absolutely, you know, end of the day we're hoping to create a generation of people that are working on these collaborative big projects. But I'm thinking about, you know, what you do, we, we call it the not work list in our book. You know, what do you do with your time? And how do you use that as just ways to learn and grow? So, you know example, I did, I went to a curling lesson, and believe it or not, there's some lessons in curling. You know, I'm not saying to go there and just think about your business the whole time, but you walk away and you go, huh, you know, there's this, you're pushing this, this. This, I don't even know what they call it, the stone, I think. And then there's a couple people sweeping who are trying to control when the stone how much pace it has and everything. And what a lesson that immediately start thinking about, about like, how you set people up when you're a leader to kind of shape and mold something that you push forward. So I just encourage people to take these ideas around, you know, thinking about how you interact with the world. Take those little moments of bravery and go out and you know, build some, build some life for yourself that allows you to learn and grow in ways that may surprise you. That is also excellent advice, right? So, so many great concepts and so many great ideas. So, before I let you go today, what is, what is something good, fun, happy, that you're looking forward to, that's gonna be happening here in the next few weeks or months? I'm going to China in May. My wife is Chinese, as I said, met her in the M B A international student and you know, China's been a tough place to visit for the last three or four years cuz of the Covid restrictions. So I've never met her family in person. And I'm going for a few weeks and getting a chance. So, I mean, I couldn't pick up a better example for all the values I espouse. I'm just excited to be in a different culture, different language, a language that frankly is really hard to learn. So I'm not sure I am doing my job of learning another language in this conversation. But I am, you know, just excited for the chance to step back to see how other worlds approach things and to also just support someone in that way that, you know, as someone who tends to be a leader can say, okay, this is an experience not about myself. And I get to kind of just appreciate and see how someone else interacts with her world and, and be a partner. So what a lovely moment for me coming up. Really cool. That's definitely gonna be quite the experience. Really hope you enjoy that. Cleve, how about you? Boy, you know, you can probably see a theme here, and this is something that we we use in our company as a theme and a metaphor of the expedition. There's so much learning when you go on Expedition minus I'm going to Tanzania in, in Kenya and Uganda the summer. And that is, those are three countries I haven't been to and I'm really excited. And part of the reason I'm excited is to learn from other people and other cultures. And again, to get out of my comfort zone as, as we've talked about here, we use this metaphor of the expedition in our work. And when you go on an expedition, you travel, if it's in the back country or in other, other countries in you know, from an airplane and buses or whatever. You learn new perspectives, but you also get uncomfortable. It's a dis collaborating experience and I love that. I learned so much from it. And by I'm really thrilled I'm going with my two sons and I think we're gonna get uncomfortable and I want that. I wanna see new experiences. I want to learn, want to learn with them, and I want to grow because anytime I leave my home, I learn so much about the world and I learn so much about myself, and I hope they do too. So I think by traveling to another continent that I don't know as well and meeting people, I'm gonna learn and grow. So I'm really excited about that. Really appreciate it. So, so, you know, you could see the common theme. It's, it's about, it's about people and it's about growth, and it's just so consistent throughout. So that those, those are gonna be some, some amazing trips. So don't, lead Alone is the name of the new book. Where can people learn more about the book? Where can they find you guys if they have some questions or some thoughts? How can, how can the audience find it? Yeah, we have a website Don't lead alone.com which has of course, all the places to purchase the book. You can read a sample of the book there. It has our bios and a, a form that you can reach out to us. And in fact, our last lines of the book are really about how we want you to reach out to us. I, I already feel like we could write the book again with all these new, I want to use the metaphor now of going back to the photo lab and learning that part. Right. So, and some of the things, you know, you brought into this conversation, max. So we really are lifelong learners in that way, and we wanted this book to be, here's some stuff we found. What do you have to share? And then I'll, I'll let Cleve talk about the companies since it's ultimately his how to find out about our, our consulting. Our consulting is called petre group.com, P O t R e R O group.com. And we do. Executive search. We do board recruitment and we do strategic planning and management consulting so they can find out more about us there and, and the clients and our colleagues that have inspired us for so many years. So, thank you, max. My, my pleasure. Thank you guys. You have been tremendous guests. Lots and lots of value, lots of practical advice and peop things people can take and go and start doing right off the bat. So thank you guys so much for being in the show today. Safe travels, safe journeys, and let's, let's, let's keep growing. Thank you for being here today. Thank you, max, for what you, you do to raise these conversations and, and summarizing and creating really practical skills for people. It's really fascinating to watch you at work, so appreciate what you're doing here. Likewise. Thank you, max. Thank you guys.