Ep74 Stuck in the Middle: Triangulation (Relationship Roundtable)

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone."
~ Matthew 18:15

Why do I get caught in the middle of arguments in my family?
Why is it so tempting to bring someone else into a tense situation?
How do I break the cycle of being brought into triangles among my family & friends?

In Episode 74 of This Whole Life, Kenna Millea welcomes Ben Baker, LMFT and Addy Diaz for a lively Relationship Roundtable all about “triangulation”—that sneaky dynamic that can pop up in families, friendships, and work relationships alike. The team breaks down what triangulation actually is (spoiler: it’s more common—and human—than you think), how to spot it in real life, and why we’re all tempted to avoid tension by pulling in a third person, habit, or even technology. With honest stories, practical metaphors (think wobbly tables and silent dinners), and plenty of humor, they explore how triangles can sometimes stabilize a relationship—but also block the deeper connection we’re really seeking. Tune in for relatable insights, gentle challenges, and actionable tips on how to recognize, understand, and break out of unhealthy triangles for healthier, more authentic relationships.

Episode 74 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and becoming a therapist
8:32: What is triangulation?
19:48: Triangles are stabilizing - even harmful ones
26:23: How do we recognize triangulation?
33:21: What causes triangles?
44:47: How do I get out of a triangle?
52:55: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. When have you been brought into a triangle? When have you triangulated someone or something else?
3. How does it feel when you've been dragged into a triangle? Why does it feel that way?
4. Why are triangles so stabilizing? When are they healthy and unhealthy?
5. When are you most tempted to triangulate others? How can you get out of triangles when they happen?

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and becoming a therapist
• 8:32 What is triangulation?
• 19:48 Triangles are stabilizing, even harmful ones
• 26:23 How do we recognize triangulation?
• 33:21 What causes triangles?
• 44:47 How do I get out of a triangle?
• 52:55 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Kenna Millea [00:00:00]:
It sounds so manipulative to triangulate, and it's not in in my experience, it's not often of ill intent. It's often because the person lacks the ability to withstand the tension or to know what to do with the tension. Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity, and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally. But you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes.

Kenna Millea [00:00:54]:
We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole Life. Welcome back to This Whole Life. Welcome to another relationship roundtable. These special episodes in which we bring members of our team here at the Martin Center for Integration to talk about something specific to health in relationships. And tonight, it's night, I have Addy Diaz. Welcome back.

Kenna Millea [00:01:35]:
Hello. Thank you, Addy. And Ben Baker, marriage and family therapist. Welcome. Welcome.

Ben Baker [00:01:41]:
Yeah. Excited to be here.

Kenna Millea [00:01:43]:
And we are talking about, triangulation. I'm gonna let that simmer for a second. But I wanna just briefly kind of touch on, like, why these relationship round tables? Why these kind of yeah. Special episodes that will intersperse a few times throughout each year, because at This Whole Life, we are always thinking about relationships. We are always thinking from a relational perspective, and that's just like an occupational hazard I think I have as a marriage and family therapist, and you all are just subject to that as our listeners. But but in these relationship roundtable episodes, we're highlighting concepts or themes, really breaking down, learning what it's like to be inside the mind of a relationally focused therapist. I went to, you know, grad school to be a marriage and family therapist, and and I love my job, but I often say, and I really mean this, that if I couldn't do my work tomorrow, all that time, all that money would still be worth it because of what I have learned for my own relationships. My own marriage, my relationships with my children, my in laws, my family of origin, my friendships, my colleagues, my clients certainly.

Kenna Millea [00:02:52]:
They're all impacted by this learning. And so we don't wanna be gatekeepers here. We want to share the wealth, and that's what we're doing in these episodes. So good news, listener. You do not have to go to grad school to learn how to support your mental health and spiritual flourishing and the relationships that mean the most to you. You can just listen to us and do what we say. Okay? It's just that simple. So you'll hear more of these episodes in due time, and who knows, maybe someday the relationship roundtable will be a spin off podcast from This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:03:23]:
I can dream. I can dream. Right, guys?

Ben Baker [00:03:25]:
That's right. That's right.

Kenna Millea [00:03:26]:
You'd be my cohost. It'd be great.

Addy Diaz [00:03:28]:
Oh my gosh. I would love that.

Kenna Millea [00:03:29]:
It'd be great. Okay. So before we jump in, because we are three therapists in a room, I am curious, Addy and Ben, what was the moment this is like a warm up because we're not gonna do highs and hearts here tonight. Mhmm. But what was the moment that you knew you wanted to be a therapist? Like, was there, like, this crystallization of, like, this is my call, this is my dream?

Addy Diaz [00:03:50]:
Okay. Yeah. So the thing that comes to mind, is I was a youth minister before this, and there was a bible study that I was leading. And I got feedback from the co leader that was helping me. She she talked to me after one of the bible studies, and she was like, Addy, I think people want this to be a bible study and not therapy. And I was like, oh, yeah. So maybe that's what

Kenna Millea [00:04:10]:
I should be talking about. Had you, like, thought about it before then?

Addy Diaz [00:04:14]:
It has been a very slow burn. Okay. Okay. It has been in the yeah. In the slow cooker for me. But that was a moment of like, oh, yeah. I think that would be Yeah. That I really enjoyed what we just did.

Kenna Millea [00:04:24]:
Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:04:24]:
So maybe this would be a good step for me.

Kenna Millea [00:04:26]:
I think about, like, in the, like, called and gifted in the Yeah. Like, naming your charisms and what have you. It's a lot about what do other people it's not what do you enjoy, but it's a lot about, like, what do other people see in you. Sure. And so that was a moment of, like, someone else calling this out, you know, for you of, like, I I see I see you're actually doing it Right. Yes. Without the training.

Addy Diaz [00:04:44]:
Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But can also you not do that because we just want it to be a bible study.

Kenna Millea [00:04:49]:
That's awesome.

Addy Diaz [00:04:50]:
You have this gift. Please stop sharing.

Kenna Millea [00:04:51]:
Did you thank her? Did you thank her?

Addy Diaz [00:04:53]:
Oh, she knows. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:04:54]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:04:54]:
Good deal. She's aware.

Ben Baker [00:04:55]:
Nice.

Kenna Millea [00:04:56]:
And, Ben, for you, that moment when it all became clear of, like, this is what I gotta do.

Ben Baker [00:05:01]:
You know, I don't know if there was a specific moment. I think so background about me. So I was in seminary for a while and then discerned out of seminary very clearly felt the Lord's call out of seminary to discern married life. And then I realized that I needed to make money doing something, and I had a philosophy degree. Nice. So I was like, what do I wanna do? And I think, I was like, well, I have this experience in, like, considering ministry. So, like, there's some relational, like, skills that I've gained from that. I think also, like, there's not as many prereqs that I need

Ben Baker [00:05:36]:
to do to go to grad school to be

Ben Baker [00:05:37]:
a marriage and family therapist. So philosophy degree and a little bit of psychology classes that I took. So I was like, I'm gonna piece this together and be like, I'm gonna give this a shot.

Ben Baker [00:05:45]:
And then I think I had

Ben Baker [00:05:46]:
the same experience as you, Kenna, where I was like, oh my gosh. This like, these classes are challenging me and revolutionary revolutionizing my life to the point where I think, like, the people around me, especially my wife was like, hey. Simmer down just a little

Ben Baker [00:06:02]:
bit out there on the relational stuff. Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:06:06]:
So I think it was more I think getting into the actual practice of doing therapy was, like, yeah. I wanna do this.

Kenna Millea [00:06:11]:
It was that confirmation.

Ben Baker [00:06:12]:
Yeah. There's this energy that I get when I'm doing this this great stuff. So

Kenna Millea [00:06:15]:
Yeah. It took me three years to get through grad school. And year two, Pat was, like, I swear to goodness. If you bring home another worksheet or, like, test for me to take or, like, our marriage is not your, like, laboratory kind of.

Ben Baker [00:06:27]:
Right. Right. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:06:28]:
So okay. So similar to you, Addy, I was in parish ministry before going back to school and changing careers. And I loved always doing, like, family catechesis and and this idea of, like, but how can we bring the family together in the context of church? So that should have been my first clue. Mhmm. But it was when I did, like, a parenting series, and every person I brought in was a therapist. Like, it was like Yeah. Let's talk about addiction. Let's talk about depression.

Kenna Millea [00:06:56]:
Let's talk about and I was like, I think I wanted to attend this series. Like, it was the things that were interesting to me and that I was seeing in the other families, and that kinda tipped me off. And it was actually one of the therapists we brought in for one of these parent nights that I ended up doing my first informational interview. I, like, called him back. I was like, could I come to your office and, like, talk about what you do and, like, yeah, how I could help support my family with this? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, ministry was felt yeah. All of us have these backgrounds in ministry, so it feels really close by.

Kenna Millea [00:07:25]:
Well, thank you for that. I didn't know that about either of you. So thanks. Thanks for sharing. We work together, but I didn't know this. Okay. So let's take a right hand turn here into the land of triangulation. So here's the deal.

Kenna Millea [00:07:41]:
If you have ever felt like you are the monkey in the middle of a relationship or of a dynamic, or if you feel like you're you're just caught up in a lot of conflict among parties, You know, maybe going home for the holidays is a tense time for you because, of some of the dynamics in the home, or if you just feel confused, like, when people are communicating with you and and you're left being like, wait. Who said what?

Kenna Millea [00:08:08]:
Where what? How did I like, how did I become

Kenna Millea [00:08:10]:
the bad guy? Chances are that that you've been scooped up into triangulation dynamic. There's a possibility that that's at play. And the deal is that, you know, if you if you Google if either of you did this in preparation. If you Google triangulation, there's so much about, like, narcissism personality disorder and borderline personality disorder, and that is true. It is it is quite prevalent. It is a, regular way of relating for folks who who live with those personality structures. But I would also say that just it's a human thing, and I wanna talk about more of that tonight. I'm not really interested in so much the deep dive into the clinical diagnostic piece of it, but just what is it about being in a triangle that we humans are, like, naturally drawn to? Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:01]:
Mhmm. So I wanna talk about for the common man. You know, like, how do we experience it in our lives? How do we see it standing in the way for our clients in particular and for ourselves, of meaningful relationship? So maybe we could start with just, like, what is it? Like, if we're moving away from this, like, deeply clinical diagnose or, language around it and description of it, like, how would each of you say you recognize triangulation? Mhmm.

Addy Diaz [00:09:30]:
The image that comes to mind for me is like a three legged table. So we experience triangles when you have the two legs of the table. Maybe, like, the system is built so much that the table the top of the table is, too heavy for two people. And so we have to put bring in that third leg so that the table doesn't fall over. And so I I can see that, often when I'm working with parents and teens or even in my own family. There will be two people in my family, doesn't matter who it is, two people in my family that will pull in a third person because this is too much for those two people in my family. So I I see that as more of like that table analogy. That's a great visual.

Ben Baker [00:10:06]:
Yeah. That weight of two people in the relationship

Kenna Millea [00:10:11]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:10:12]:
And they need a third person to, like, help support that. That's a really good, like, visual

Kenna Millea [00:10:18]:
Sure.

Ben Baker [00:10:18]:
In my mind. Yeah. I think in my mind, whenever I'm recognizing a triangle that I'm in, it's when I'm feeling this tug between two people.

Kenna Millea [00:10:32]:
Like, I've gotta make a choice.

Ben Baker [00:10:33]:
I gotta make a I gotta choose a side, or they're both asking something of me, or I need to make a decision, and I know I'm gonna disappoint one of those people. And I think that's when I'm recognizing, oop, I just got triangulated into something here. And I think it's natural to enjoy, like, the company of more than one person. And I think, like, there so there can be this positive experience of, like, a third person coming in and, like, adding life to a social dynamic or something like that too. And it can start to get toxic when you feel torn or you feel like you need to sacrifice something about your own autonomy or differentiation in order to, like, support one other person in that three legged table that you're talking about, Addy.

Kenna Millea [00:11:27]:
Mhmm. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So, Addy, I 100% hear what you're saying. That table is so good because the way I think about it actually is, I think about every relationship having a pie, and and there's this, like, let's call it, like, a tension pie. And when there's two of us, we each have to eat 50%. And it's like, like, to eat 50% of this tension pie is a lot.

Kenna Millea [00:11:50]:
Yeah. But, man, if we bring in Ben and we're each only eating 33% of the tension pie, that feels a little better. You know? And and so to that point of the the heaviness of the tabletop, it's when triangles tend to happen when there's this intensity. And you bring up teens and parents Mhmm. And snakes alive. Like, that is an that is an intense time when there's a lot of push and pull and, you know, each are trying to hold their own and be empowered for living out their values and what they see as important. So you can see how that is a classic time. And then if you're the therapist in that situation, like, easily getting pulled in.

Kenna Millea [00:12:28]:
So yeah. So I would say, you know, the the human tendency toward triangles, is is a way of reducing tension. And so when we talk about it like that, I think it can be less, stigmatizing. Right? If we're only gonna talk about it in, like, the context of narcissism and borderline personality disorder, that's so heavy handed. Yeah. But if we say, like, we all know what it's like to be intention with someone. I mean, I think of something as simple as this is a real life example. But right now, in Pat's family, we are trying to figure out when we're gonna have cousin camp.

Kenna Millea [00:13:01]:
And we're talking about figuring out among five siblings how all the grandchildren are gonna go spend a week with grandma and grandpa. And it's a lot. And there's competing, schedules, competing, you know, needs for okay. Well, my kids got baseball this day, and my kids got swim camp this day, and, you know, what have you. And and how easy that could be for pets' parents to get triangulated, you know, between Sure. Kids who are jockeying for, like, no. But but choose the week that works best for my family. And and that's tough.

Kenna Millea [00:13:28]:
Like, I think these are everyday kinds of things that can happen to us if we're not aware of how to recognize them and then how to navigate and step out of them, which we'll we'll get to all of that Mhmm. In just a moment. So when we're talking we're we're still fleshing out this definition of, like, what is triangulation? And, Ben, before we came on before we hit record, you were saying, often we think of triangles with people, three people, but that's not always the case. Can you say a bit more about that?

Ben Baker [00:13:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is where I think it can get kind of fun to think about triangles of you can think about, a triangle with you, someone you love and, like, an entity of people. Right? So it could be you, your spouse, and your, your spouse's extended family. Right? It could be you, your friend, and, the softball team that you're a part of. It could also be not just like an entity of people. It could be like, something like someone's work, you know, the child, their parent, and their parents' work.

Ben Baker [00:14:38]:
It could be something like substance abuse. Like, it could be, you know, you, your spouse, and alcoholism, that type of thing. So there's all these different ways that we can triangulate. And when it starts to get messy is when I think we try to speak to the side of the triangle that we're not on. And I that's getting kind of theoretical, but if I am speaking about, my wife's relationship with one of her friends and I'm telling her what I think she should do in that friendship, that's not the side of the triangle I'm on.

Ben Baker [00:15:15]:
But

Ben Baker [00:15:15]:
if and if she's coming to me and, like, telling me about this experience, I need to just tell her, hey, here's what I'm hearing or, like, ask her questions. It's going back to, like, active listening. Right? Like, ask her questions. What's this like for you Mhmm. In this space? And And I think that also goes for stuff, like, if it's not just a person, it can like, especially with something like, work or church or some of these, like, really valuable things for people in their lives. We can start to get really defensive with somebody on the other side of that triangle is like, hey, this is what I think you should do, or this is my like, I'm trying to influence myself into that, that part of your life.

Kenna Millea [00:15:56]:
Yeah. No. That's absolutely true. And here's the thing that that I I found really surprising as I had my eyes opened and was, like, seeing so much of this in my world and in my relationships, is that it it sounds so manipulative to triangulate. Mhmm. And it's not in in my experience, it's not often of ill intent. Mhmm. It's often because Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:16:17]:
The person lacks the ability to withstand the tension or to know what to do with the tension, that it's not trying to be manipulative and conniving and backstabbing and all those things. I mean, that certainly can happen. But more often than not, when I see it in my office, especially when I'm doing couples therapy or anything with families where we identify this, it's them coming to realize, like, oh, it's been really hard for us to talk about some upset feelings that exist between us. And so we've kind of scapegoated in a sense, like, this third party. And let's be mad at uncle John over there, you know, instead of actually sorting out our stuff. Mhmm. And I think that's something that people miss and can go a long time kind of around and around and around and around and and not figure out how how do we get out of this conflict. And it's like, well, it's it's because you're not actually talking about the issue at hand of the tension between the two of you, and you're letting yourselves be distracted by this other thing.

Kenna Millea [00:17:22]:
I don't know. I don't know if you find that in your practice.

Ben Baker [00:17:24]:
Certainly. And I I don't know if you see this in your work, whether whether it was like in youth ministry or particularly now, like, in working with teens, but I'll see it with, like, parents a lot of times. Like, they're having trouble in their marriage, but if one of their kids is having, like, behavioral trouble, they can, like, fight a set of unity and triangulated with that with that kid. And it's like, they're using that kid's behavior problems almost like as a as a crutch because they're not getting along. Or vice versa. Sometimes parents will, like, triangulate a kid into their conflict. Like, can you believe your dad did this? Like

Kenna Millea [00:18:00]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:18:01]:
Because they don't know, like you're saying, like, how to handle that tension. I don't know which which your experience has been with that.

Addy Diaz [00:18:07]:
Yeah. Totally. Exactly. And what comes to mind with that too is the roles that we take on. If this is, like, going too off the rails, you can tell me. But it it brings up the roles that we are given in the family of maybe there is someone that's, like, the parentified child because mom and dad can't get their stuff together. Like, that that's there's too much tension there. So mom needs to pull up oldest son, oldest daughter to help with the parental responsibilities.

Addy Diaz [00:18:32]:
Maybe there is a scapegoat child that is taking all of the tension of the family. So it it's an interesting, kind of journey down that idea too of what is that triangle what role is that triangle putting you in in your system.

Kenna Millea [00:18:49]:
Well, and to take that idea further, that triangles are stabilizing. Yes. That that the the intensity of the the tension, and I just mean, like, the everyday stuff. I don't even necessarily I'm not even talking about, like, big cataclysmic, you know, skeletons in closets or anything. Like, I'm just talking about normal humans trying to be in a relationship with each other, having different ideas, different, you know, hierarchy of needs and priorities and what have you and just the conflict that comes out of that. Mhmm. And if you're not if you if you're not equipped to addressing that, then that tension can build and you can look for it can feel so insurmountable that you look for something to, gang up on, to alleviate that somehow of, like, okay. Let's like you said, Ben, like, let's be united together as parents against our kid whose behavioral issues are really problematic for both of us, and we can at least unite on that.

Kenna Millea [00:19:38]:
Right? The phrase, like, unity in times of adversity of, like, let's triangulate that enemy over there, and find some sense of connection and camaraderie over here. Yeah. The the the purpose of, triangulation oftentimes is this sense of gaining an advantage. Right? So I was thinking about, like, this this kind of silly example, but just to bring it into, like, the everyday. And I have a child who just, like, detests vegetables. Just it just hurts me because, you know Yeah. I really like vegetables. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:20:11]:
So, so and I really want children to eat vegetables. Okay? I have all sorts of catastrophic thoughts about children who don't eat vegetables. Okay. We can we can digest that another day. But, a way to talk about this triangle would be, like, if my child won't eat the broccoli, and I say, you know who loves broccoli? Your best friend, Johnny. Oh. He loves his broccoli. Every night, he eats his broccoli.

Kenna Millea [00:20:36]:
That's why he's such a good basketball player because he eats his broccoli. Right? Like, that's a silly little example, but I'm trying to just make it real plain of, like, this is the triangle. Right? I have used Johnny as leverage against my kid of, like, don't you wanna be on the good team with us? Like, I have triangulated Mhmm. Pulled Johnny into my system and been like, come on. Like, lean heavy over here. Yeah. So I'm trying to, assert my influence by pulling more weight on my side. Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:21:08]:
Again, not sure if that shows up in your clinical practice, but I totally see it in mine. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:21:12]:
Well, another example that comes to mind, like, as you were speaking, kind of like that saying of, like, hey, tell your mom that her family needs to x, y, and z, or tell your dad that you know what I mean? And, like Yeah. I don't know. Like, I've just heard that so much. And that's just a very classic even if it's funny, even if it's joking, that is a very clear triangle that is being painted in that moment instead of mom and dad communicating that or bringing in the kid.

Kenna Millea [00:21:36]:
Because what's the deal? That kid is in a a choice. Right? Like, I can either be the rescuer and agree with you and be like, yeah, Mom stings about blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Addy Diaz [00:21:49]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:21:50]:
Or I'm the bad guy and I stand up for mom. Mhmm. And I go, no. Don't talk about her like that. Yeah. Like, I I can't I can't win. And so, again, to your point, Ben, of, like, what does it feel like to be triangulated? It's that sense of I've only got two options to either rescue or be the bad guy. And neither of them actually even rescuing doesn't actually feel that good, like, deep down.

Kenna Millea [00:22:10]:
Like, there's something about that that feels to us.

Ben Baker [00:22:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is also, like, this idea of it really can be stabilizing too.

Kenna Millea [00:22:24]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:22:25]:
And that's why it gets reinforced.

Addy Diaz [00:22:27]:
Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:22:28]:
Like, okay. If somebody is rescuing, even though it's, like, deep down, it's, like, tearing them up, it stabilizes the family for a little bit longer. Or maybe it's even something so benign as, like, a kid's sports schedule. It allows the family to, like, rally around something and, like, where they maybe this family and this hypothetical family isn't spending a ton of time. They're not really eating meals together or having fun together or doing, like, you know, positive things as a family, but they're able to, like, show up to little Johnny's, like, sporting events. But then when those sporting events disappear, like, it totally destabilizes the family. Yeah. And I think in a much broader sense, like, I'll see this sometimes, especially working with couples as or just even individuals, and they're thinking about their relationship with their spouse.

Ben Baker [00:23:15]:
Once their kids move out, this, like, empty nest syndrome is a common time where they realize that in order to stabilize the family through probably objectively difficult times, they've triangulated a lot of times kids or kids' activities or interests or those relationships. And then once those kids are physically gone, they're sitting in the dust of where does that leave us, and can we manage this tension Yes. On our own.

Kenna Millea [00:23:40]:
The intensity of of being together. You reminded me as you were saying that, I learned this in grad school that, the the divorce rate for couples where alcoholism is present is higher after recovery than before recovery. Interesting. Because the alcoholism is the third leg of the table.

Ben Baker [00:23:59]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:24:00]:
And we can get in, you know, we should probably do a whole episode on codependence as well someday, but, like but but that when the alcohol disappears, the intensity, the hurt, the resentments, like, all this stuff, the couple's left to deal with that and to heal. And if they do not get support and if they cannot, I would say akin to empty nesting. Right? If if the couple does not really take intentional steps to figure out how are we going to deal with all the stuff that's between us Mhmm. Then that that's when things can really fall apart. But I just thought that was so fascinating, like and it also again, going off on a tangent, but we're just a bunch of therapists talking, like, coffee chat. Right? Okay. So so I also think it's fascinating of, like, that I think a lot of people would say in in the addiction counseling world is why a lot of addictions persist is there is a stabilizing mechanism about it. Even as harmful Mhmm.

Kenna Millea [00:24:51]:
As the addiction is, as the dependence is, there is there is a risk to take it away. And and we sense that somehow. I don't think anyone in a no one would tell you that they wish their loved one would continue using by any means. And also, there is this, but I don't know what it's gonna look like if if if they don't. If I don't know my role as the rescuer all the time or the bad guy, like Yeah. Like Yeah. Where where does that leave me? I'm not sure. So, anyhoo, just some random thoughts I'm thinking about here on this on this topic.

Kenna Millea [00:25:23]:
I guess something else I'm wondering about as we're continuing to to dive into this, like, you know, what is it? Is is that question of how do we recognize it? Ben, you talked a little bit about, you know, filling that push and pull, that that tug of war, you know, rope Right. Kind of a thing. Something else I was thinking about was the, like, I don't know who to believe when I'm when I'm in a story. And I I just had this experience, unfortunately, with some friends the other week, and it took me a little while. Of course, it was in a text message. But, it took me a little while to be like, these stories aren't making like, one's telling me this and one's telling me that, and this isn't making sense. And I was like, oh, I think I'm in a triangle. So so that confusion, I think, is another indication that there might be something amiss in this, in this group that I'm a part of, that there might be some triangles going on.

Kenna Millea [00:26:14]:
I don't know how you guys recognize it in your own lives too.

Ben Baker [00:26:17]:
You know, I think I'm gonna take it from a slightly different perspective of when I triangulate is noticing when I am feeling, like, an insecurity about something, and I don't feel a sense of confidence to bring it up to another person. Mhmm. And then I'll be like, well, either if there's somebody in the room, I'd be like, well, what do you think about this? You know, type of thing. Or one of the things that I know that I might have a tendency to do is go and talk to somebody else about, what do you think about so and so? They did this the other day. How should I approach that? And I'm not maybe actually looking for advice. I'm actually just trying to ease my sense of tension with that person. Or I think another common one for people would be if they're triangulating is this let me just vent to you about this person. I just need to tell you about them.

Ben Baker [00:27:07]:
I'm trying to get somebody kind of on their on their side, and maybe that's not even what's conscious for them, but there is this, like, I can't be alone in this tension between me and this other person. In this dyad, I need to bring in this third person to to help just, like I I know we keep coming back to this word, but stabilize. Because Yeah. Relationships are so important to us. And when they feel threatened or there's tension there, we need something to stabilize it, I think.

Addy Diaz [00:27:35]:
Yeah. What what's coming to mind from I love all of that. I think I do all of those things and more. But, what's coming to mind as you're saying that is maybe even the role when we think about what is that third thing, it doesn't have to be the person. Sure. But, like, what role does the phone play in the relationship? So if I'm feeling tension in my relationship, do I go to my phone because my brain is too there's too much going on and I don't wanna feel it? Or do I go shopping? Or do I go eat? You know, something like that. So it it could be a drug. It could be some, like, crazy addiction.

Addy Diaz [00:28:07]:
It could also just be the addiction to your phone or, you know, something like that to help alleviate that stress.

Kenna Millea [00:28:12]:
Yes. Yeah. Well, exactly. As Ben was talking, I was thinking about how I think it was last weekend. There were stuff that Pat and I needed to talk about. It's it's an intense season of life. There's a lot going on work wise and family wise, and and we needed to talk about things. And I just knew I didn't have the bandwidth, and I was like, hey, let's watch a movie instead of go to dinner.

Kenna Millea [00:28:33]:
Because I was like Yeah. I know I don't have to address this with you. And so it's again, it it wasn't manipulative. It was you know, whatever whatever. But it's this reality of, like, I didn't have it in that moment to have the hard conversation, to dive in deep, to feel the And so I was like, let's just bring in this other thing that eases the tension. Yeah. And and so to your point, Addy, I think, it's this is gonna happen. Right? These things are gonna crop up.

Kenna Millea [00:29:02]:
We're gonna notice them. Pat and I are gonna watch a movie from time to time because Kenna is too tired to talk about things. But it's when that becomes habitual and when it becomes the way of the relationship and even more so, which is where I think we come in as as therapists, it's when it gets in the way of the flourishing and the health of a relationship. Right? When when a parent is struggling to connect with their child or have anything other than conflict with their child, when spouses are having a hard time having deep conversations ever, not just that one Friday night in a month when they were both really burnt out and tired and, you know, whatever. So it's it's we're pointing out more that first of all, it happens to all of us, and it's a natural thing. And sometimes we don't realize it till it's in our rearview mirror. But more like, can we have our eyes open? This is what grad school did for me. Like, it opened me up to, like, woah.

Kenna Millea [00:29:51]:
Yeah. And then and then to ask myself when I see it happening, like, am I okay with that? I'm okay with a movie night with Pat every now and again that we both look at each other and and we're like, I I can't talk about taxes right now.

Kenna Millea [00:30:02]:
Like, we just cannot discuss taxes tonight.

Kenna Millea [00:30:05]:
Yeah. I know we should balance our budget and talk about what we're doing, you know, for summer vacation this year, but, like, I just can't do it tonight. Like, I'm okay with that every now and again. But when that becomes our constant you know, when we hear couples realizing, like, we never go out to dinner alone. We always invite someone else, one of our adult kids or friends or or, you know, we we never let ourselves be alone. When I'm always, you know, taking my kid on an outing and having him bring his his best bud, and I find myself kinda slinking off with my phone while they're, you know, chatting and doing their like, when that's when that becomes my default way of relating there's this question of, do I have what it takes to step into the tension that naturally occurs? It's not because anyone's doing anything wrong necessarily. Yeah. It's just that naturally occurs in relationships.

Addy Diaz [00:30:53]:
Yep. Mhmm. Can I share another image that's kinda coming to mind as you say this? Brilliant. And this just, like, it breaks my heart when I see this in public. But when you go out to eat and there are two people on a date and they're both on their phones, and that to me is such, like, a very silent triangle that's happening. And I I see them like, oh, look at this meme or look at this article that I'm reading. And that media content becomes that third point of that triangle. And that is really dangerous because what are we missing if we're talking about memes on our date? Do you know what I mean? And obviously memes are funny.

Addy Diaz [00:31:27]:
I yeah. But

Kenna Millea [00:31:29]:
Please keep sending me memes, Addy.

Addy Diaz [00:31:32]:
I will send you so many. But they can't be the whole, That that shouldn't be your date night. Hot take.

Kenna Millea [00:31:37]:
And ex you heard it here first.

Ben Baker [00:31:41]:
Truth.

Addy Diaz [00:31:42]:
I have some opinions on that, I think. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:31:45]:
But but I love what you're what you're saying, Addy. It's like, that is a symptom of this deeper issue of, like, why isn't there comfort? Why aren't why aren't we working on being able to be at table without something to to mediate our connection?

Ben Baker [00:32:00]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:32:01]:
Why aren't we able to maybe even sit in awkward silence for a moment and be like, gosh. You know, what what's up with you lately? And, why aren't we able to do that? And I think you're absolutely right that technology has become this quick fix for all of us to to resist having to feel these tensions that occur between us and and people that we wanna be connected with. Yeah. Yeah. So the next question that I wanted to dive into with you guys was why does this happen? Like, what is this human pull toward triangles? And we've answered it in a couple of different ways, Addy. I think your, you know, visual of of a table that only has two legs. Yeah. And, Ben, you brought it up exactly, instability.

Kenna Millea [00:32:36]:
You know, that that we are looking for the clinical term would be homeostasis. Right? We're looking for the steady of the machine of the relationship. We're looking for just that easy breezy status quo. Like, let's let's find that. And often as humans, because we are, you know, as often survival seeking beings, we're like, what's the fastest way there? And it's certainly not to do the hard thing and have the hard conversations or sit in the tension or the awkward silence or what have you. It's let's let's triangulate this thing. But I think, again, if we can know, like, why do I do that? Why does that come up with me? I was think I was reflecting on a relationship in my family that for a long time this is kind of embarrassing, but I realized, like, with this person, all of our communication was some kind of triangle or another. A lot of it was, like, kind of innocuous gossip if there's such a thing.

Kenna Millea [00:33:25]:
Like like, catching up about other people. Like, it was never really about ourselves. We were never really sharing, like, about us. It was always, oh, and then did you hear about so and so? And that's so sweet. And, oh, did you hear they they they did that thing? And, you know, so but it it took me a while, again, grad school, to, like, sit with that and be like, gosh. I really am nervous to go to the depths with this person. Why is that? You know, I do some soul searching for myself of, like, is it just our compatibility? Is it just kind of our, you know, character together? The the combination of personalities, like, what is that? And so, again, that that's a symptom, and we can ask this question of, like, yeah, what is it that makes this partnership feel unstable, and what might be some things that I could that I could do on my side in my garden, to to introduce more comfort with that as we grow in-depth. So that insecurity, instability, yeah, that broccoli situation with my kid who won't eat broccoli, like, that idea of I feel insecure, so let me call call in for backup, you know, of sorts.

Kenna Millea [00:34:32]:
Mhmm. Even if that backup wasn't consenting.

Kenna Millea [00:34:35]:
You know, best friend Johnny did not know I was gonna throw him under

Kenna Millea [00:34:37]:
the bus that night. Mhmm. So any other thoughts on, like, why this happens or or what you see going on in your in your observer roles of therapist? Like, why this shows up in people's lives?

Ben Baker [00:34:50]:
Well, I think there's a reinforcement that triangles do work in certain circumstances and work well. Like, I'm just thinking, like, like, a courtroom. You need a judge to triangulate between

Kenna Millea [00:35:02]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:35:02]:
The prosecution and the defense. Otherwise, it'd be chaos. Mhmm. In sports, you need a referee. Like, otherwise, if you're calling your own fouls, gosh, like, I'm gonna always win. Or I just even thinking, like, I'm gonna go spiritual here for a moment, but we call upon the intercession of the saints. And in a certain sense, there's a holy triangle that develops there. Right? Like, what I've interceded for, Saint Therese or for asking for Saint Therese's intercession, I'm asking her to bring that before the Lord.

Kenna Millea [00:35:31]:
To be on your side. Right? To be on my side. Yeah. To come on your side and to beseech on your behalf. Yeah. God's favor.

Ben Baker [00:35:37]:
And I well, I mean,

Ben Baker [00:35:37]:
I think this happens, like, in the therapy room whether we're working with a parent and a child or we're working with a couple as they're looking to us as the therapist to ease some of that relationship tension. We are being triangulated into that. Mhmm. And I think in those last two examples that I shared, I think the those triangles can be used constructively when we are like, as a therapist, when I am putting that, responsibility for the relationship back onto the the couple or the parent of the child or whoever's in that family system when I am slowly removing myself from that triangle. And I think in the same way, like, in our faith, there probably is I haven't thought about this. So this is a little bit of a half baked thought. Right? So maybe Father Nathan should be here to correct me

Ben Baker [00:36:21]:
so make sure I'm not

Ben Baker [00:36:22]:
getting into, like, heresy here. But, like like, that intercession is bringing me into a deeper communion with God, which then in effect would also bring me into a deeper, you know, communion with that saint. So, like, triangles can be such a positive experience for us too. And I think we're, like, seeking that.

Kenna Millea [00:36:40]:
Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:36:41]:
But at the at the core of it, when we when we bring in somebody else or we are brought into a triangulation situation, there probably is an element for two people in that triangle that I'm not gonna be accepted by that other person. That there's something in this that if I that I'm gonna be rejected or denied or, like, kicked out of the group or whatever the case may be. So I need to bring in a third person or I am that third person bring being brought in so that somebody, can have that sense of security in a relationship.

Kenna Millea [00:37:09]:
Mhmm. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I I agree that that triangles aren't always a bad thing. I mean, as we talked about, you know, my silly, like, movie example, of, like, if we can we can recognize what it what it is for what it is, that that is okay. And, also, there are times when we want to reduce tension for a greater good. There are times when, let's say, for example, we are giving our children the birds and the bees talk, and we go to on an activity.

Kenna Millea [00:37:44]:
Pat took one of our kids on a hike and and triangulate the activity because sitting face to face, eyeball to eyeball, nose to nose, and explaining how babies are made is a bit intense for a 10 year old and his dad. Yes. So, you know, there are ways in which we can acknowledge, like, yeah, there's a lot going on here, and this might be a good moment to bring, you know, usually an entity, not not usually a person, but an entity, like, in to help alleviate that. Again, if I can if I can know what I'm using it for and it can draw me deeper into relationships so we can let go of that and not always have to rely on that. You know, there are times when Pat has heart to hearts with that son. Doesn't always need to be, like, mediated by an activity. Mhmm. And and so there's health there.

Kenna Millea [00:38:28]:
But but, yeah, I think there can be a good, and we can recognize the mechanism of, yeah, this alleviates some of that tension for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:38:36]:
I think, the images that are coming to mind sorry. I'm just, like, getting all these all these visions. Yeah. Something's happening in this corner. So many pictures in the show notes. I know. Yeah. So many pictures.

Addy Diaz [00:38:46]:
But something that as you're saying that, like, going on the hike, I think that's why car rides are so powerful because we're using the car. We're using that driving experience as that third party. We don't have to look at each other. We can still talk and have a heart to heart. Or like bonfires. Bonfires are kind of like a crazy triangulation system because you can just sit there and look at like, our caveman brains turn on, and we're there for hours. And we can talk about anything and everything, and the tension goes away. So that's another example, I guess.

Addy Diaz [00:39:14]:
A a bonfire would be a great example of, this is a good time to have a hard conversation. Yeah. We're not looking face to face. I love that imagery, I guess,

Addy Diaz [00:39:22]:
is that

Addy Diaz [00:39:22]:
what you're saying?

Kenna Millea [00:39:22]:
Yes. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think too, if if we talk about, like, when is a triangle a good thing when it brings us into deeper communion? And I'm gonna go back to your again, I've never tried this before, Ben, so we're gonna see if I'm half baked about it too. But your your judge, your courtroom, and your sports analogies Yeah. Of, like, that that judge exists in order to bring justice.

Kenna Millea [00:39:47]:
Right? In order to bring a sense of peace and, hopefully, a sense of collaboration between the prosecution and the defense to, like, restore order in the community. That referee exists to help the game be played in a way that is, you know, beneficial for all that are participating, all that are spectating. Right? There there's, like, a good that comes out of that. And and in the relationship, this idea we've got of bonfires and driving and hikes and all of that, the good is so that it can facilitate deeper vulnerability. And I think that's what we lose when triangles are are used crazy clinical term, but this is a relationship roundtable in, like, a maladaptive way. Right? In a way that that is to the detriment of the relationship, is that it cuts off vulnerability. So, again, back to my silly movie example of, like, if all Pat and I ever did for date nights was watch a movie together, there isn't an opportunity for that vulnerability. Right? And it's and it's lost.

Kenna Millea [00:40:47]:
If all my friend and I ever did was get caught up on all of our mutual friends' lives and who's doing what and whose kids are in what sports and blah blah blah blah blah. We would lose that opportunity to be intimate and vulnerable with each other. And so again, if if we're talking about, like, kind of litmus tests, of how to to know if you're maybe dancing in the danger zone of, like, I'm relying on this too much in my relationships, just to consider, like, yeah. Do I do I feel equipped and do I feel ready for vulnerability with that person when it shows up? You know, organically, you don't you you don't always have to be like me and, like, digging deep with everyone. That's what Pat would say if you were right now. But you don't always have to be going that deep. But, are are you ready to receive it when it comes? And if not, okay, maybe maybe those triangles aren't serving you and they're more in that maladaptive realm.

Addy Diaz [00:41:39]:
Can I add to that? And you can cut this out if you want to.

Kenna Millea [00:41:41]:
Brilliant.

Addy Diaz [00:41:42]:
To add to that, I just keep thinking of, like, sweet middle school relationships or the lack of relationships and how quickly triangles form in those situations. Tell me about them.

Kenna Millea [00:41:53]:
I live with middle schoolers. Bring it. Bring it.

Addy Diaz [00:41:55]:
Yes. Tell me. Well, I have definitely been in my share. Yeah. I've been in my share where I was not Maybe Ben. Maybe not Ben. Ben, you were perfect.

Kenna Millea [00:42:02]:
Ben seems Ben seems pretty healthy. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:42:04]:
Ben is perfect. Kenna and I have been in some triangles. So, but I I think of, like, can you tell can you tell Sarah to tell Dan? Or like, Sarah, can you please tell Dan that I have this huge crush on him? Like, do you think he likes me? Like, all of those things. And we do it as adults. Then if we are not we do not graduate from that, we've, like, maybe make them a little bit more mature. Yeah. But why why would I ask someone? I definitely did this in middle school, high school. I was like, can you ask him do you think, like, see if he likes me or something like this? And I do that.

Addy Diaz [00:42:33]:
I did that because I did not have the skills to have that vulnerability with said boy in at that time in my life.

Kenna Millea [00:42:41]:
Absolutely. And true or false, it happens in our offices. I'm sitting with a husband and wife, and he turns to me and says, don't you think that's ridiculous that she said that? I'm like, dude, she's right here. Like, you did not need to bring me in like that. That. Yeah. So to your point of absolutely. We still do this as adults, and it's it's because of that.

Kenna Millea [00:43:04]:
Yeah. And I'm like, what would it be like to just ask her to her face? That doesn't feel good.

Kenna Millea [00:43:09]:
Like, okay. Well, then maybe don't ask me that

Kenna Millea [00:43:11]:
question either. Yeah.

Addy Diaz [00:43:12]:
I get this from parents too. Like, I I speak, to some groups and I I've gotten some and even just working with parents where they will say, you know, like, how do you think I should relate to my teen? What should I be doing instead? Or like, how what are some good ways to connect with my teen? And I always ask the question and I always feel like I shouldn't because, you know but I always ask the question like, well, have you asked them how they wanna connect? And truly, I think nine times out of 10, they have said no. And so there's that clear sign of a triangle too. Like, well, can you have that conversation with your teen? They will tell you how they wanna connect with you, hopefully. You don't need me to ask that question.

Kenna Millea [00:43:45]:
Which is an excellent segue into the next portion of our show, which is how do we get out of triangles? When we when we are in a triangle that we have deemed this is not healthy, this is not helpful, how do we get out of this? Right? In our workplaces, in our extended families, I think are a hotbed for, triangles because there's this, understandable distance between folks. You know, it's not like when you're all living in one house, when you're growing up, it's like, yeah. And then I texted so and so. And then two days later, that person called this person and talked about it. And, you know, so in our workplaces, in our, family relationships, yeah, with those that we so deeply desire to be close to, like, how do we get out of this? And I say to people all the time, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Right? So so Ben, Addy, and I, we are sitting in a triangle. We couldn't even help it.

Kenna Millea [00:44:39]:
I guess if we sat like airplane style and just all sat next to each other, but we're not. We're in a triangle. Right? So Addy, to get to me, the shortest path is not through Ben Mhmm. Right, which would be the triangle, but it's to come directly to me. And so to your point, Addy, of mom, dad, have you asked teen how they want to spend time with you Yeah. To go directly? And people are like, they're like horrified by the, like, about when my when my client when I say to him, can can you just ask your wife that question? Mhmm. You know, the intensity of that. But it really is to to break the triangle down.

Kenna Millea [00:45:12]:
How can the relationship between Addy and Kenna be strong, be authentic, be open, be free? How can the space between Ben and Addy be strong, authentic, and open, and free? How can the space between Ben and Kenna be vulnerable and open? And, you know Yeah. We gotta we gotta break it down. Mhmm. I find myself doing that with clients often. It's, like, literally drawing out the triangle that they're talking about. Because it happens even with my individuals. It's not just couples or, like, family. Like, I don't need multiple people in a room to have a triangle on my couch.

Kenna Millea [00:45:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because they're, you know, telling me this story about what their brother did last night and can you even believe that thing and, you know, and and so breaking it down of drawing, like, the straight lines of, like, tell me about the quality, the strength, the durability of this person and this person. Right? What we call dyads in our work.

Ben Baker [00:45:59]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I as you're describing that moment of telling one member of, like, a couple that you're working with, like, have you told your wife that? I'm just imagining that if any of my couples are, like, listening to this, they're probably rolling their eyes because how many times I'll tell them, like, I'm gonna have you do this goofy thing, but I actually want you to turn towards your spouse and tell them what you just told me. Or maybe tell them a little bit differently than, can you believe that they did that? You know? I'm feeling shocked that you did that. Or I think, like, parents and, and teens get sometimes from parents. Do you think you could talk to Timmy about this thing? I think it might be really good for it to come from you. And in my mind and sometimes what I'll say is, it actually might be really good for it to come from you. Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:46:51]:
But we can practice how to do that so that Timmy is actually receptive to that. And I think that's, like, one of those ways to step out of that triangulation is to encourage and empower and just instill confidence in that other person that I think this is simpler than you're making it out to be. Sometimes it's not. Let's I don't wanna make this too simplistic. But, like, I think you just need to have a conversation with that other person, and it might go better than you coming and talking with me about something.

Kenna Millea [00:47:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Other thoughts, Addy, on on breaking down triangles?

Addy Diaz [00:47:27]:
Yeah. I think just to Ben's point, I think, with that, it's it's easy to say, okay, well then just turn into the other corner of the triangle that you've been avoiding. But it also comes and I'm thinking of, okay, working with parents and teens, we have to learn how to communicate. So it's not gonna just be turn to that turn corner of the triangle and then communicate with them like you've always communicated with them. We have to learn, shameless plug for my active listening podcast episode.

Kenna Millea [00:47:55]:
Episode 69, active listening with Addy Diaz.

Addy Diaz [00:47:58]:
Yeah. Just go give that one a little listen. But we have to maybe, face what has been going wrong in communication with that part of the triangle, before we just, like, go loose. Do you know what I mean? Mhmm. We need to adjust our ways.

Kenna Millea [00:48:11]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And and that's, I think, yeah, exactly what we're talking about earlier of of when we notice the triangle, can it bring this awareness of, like, oh, I wanna examine this. Like, what what is it about this that is so difficult? And part of it could be the communication. Part of it could be we've just been in a constant conflict cycle. Right. And so the thought of bringing anything up, even if I have the best of intentions, it just feels like it's gonna be a hot mess or, you know, what have you.

Kenna Millea [00:48:35]:
So yeah. Absolutely. But but getting or extricating ourselves out of that triangle, and I think we as therapists are constantly doing that. And and I think it's it's so it can be so easy with our individual clients in particular to, like, gang up with them against the person that's not present, the person who's not there to defend themself, you know. I I find that I can I can end a session and be like, oh my gosh, and, like, realize that that's just what happened? And and, yeah, feel really annoyed with myself for falling into that trap. But, again, it can feel so good even as a therapist in the moment to, like, be you know, help our client feel empowered and

Ben Baker [00:49:13]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:49:13]:
You

Kenna Millea [00:49:13]:
know, feel excited about something and and, like, they have someone on their side. So I get why I do it. But that's that's a reality of you got you gotta break it down and it it do we have the skills to be able to do that and to feel confident in it? Yeah. Which is why this is such a big mental health, relational health topic.

Addy Diaz [00:49:30]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:49:30]:
And I think one of those skills probably too is helping people. And I'm thinking about this in terms of friends, and I know that some of my friends have done this for me when I'm maybe venting to them about somebody else, right, is helping somebody consider what the other perspective on that point of that triangle

Addy Diaz [00:49:48]:
Yeah.

Ben Baker [00:49:48]:
Might be. Mhmm. And you wanna do it obviously in a way that's not invalidating to them of, like, what do you think that person was trying to do? Well, I'm still hurt by what they tried to do. Right? You wanna validate them and ask them, like, what do you think might be going on here? Like, what what could be a different way of of thinking about this? And it has to be, you know, sometimes delicately done.

Kenna Millea [00:50:11]:
Mhmm.

Ben Baker [00:50:12]:
And that can be a powerful way to break that triangle, even in a much less formal setting like therapy when it's just a friend venting to you. Because sometimes that venting can really deepen that divide between that person and that, the person that they're venting about, for example, and, like, helping them consider a different perspective. At least for me, when friends have done that for me, it helps me to be more open and wanna lean back into that relationship that I might be talking about.

Kenna Millea [00:50:39]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way, Ben, to to think about how when you have found yourself triangulated, how can you not only gracefully exit, but also, like, use the position for good.

Ben Baker [00:50:52]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:50:52]:
I mean, that that's a that's a really beautiful way to bring something good out of something that could have been so sour and and so unhealthy, to be able to, yeah, consider that shift in perspective and kind of leverage your privileged position as being the third leg of the stool. I'm also thinking about I do this a lot with clients of of, like, if, you know, they're venting about someone else and wanting me to be on their side and really pulling for me to be part of that triangle, to say, like, what do you wish you could say to that person? You know, they're not here. So what do you wish you could say? And then they say it. They pretty much know what they wanna say. And I'm like, okay. With less expletives, do you imagine that you could say that? Yeah. And and they've practiced it. Right? They've had this, like, rehearsal.

Kenna Millea [00:51:37]:
And I think we can do that in our you have to consider the relationship, discern that well. But I think we can do that with a lot of people in our lives is is to use that position as a sounding board and then go whoop and, like, you know, turn the mirror, and then go, and the two of you. Go for it.

Kenna Millea [00:52:27]:
Okay. Yep. I am loving where this conversation is ending because we are almost out of time here. And it's it's I didn't even mean for this to end on such a such a hopeful note of, like, hey. This stuff happens.

Kenna Millea [00:52:45]:
And when we notice it happens, there are some really actually constructive ways that we can address this and get out of this. So thank you. Thank you, both of you, for inspiring this. Thank you for being a healthy triangle in my life, for bringing me into deeper intimacy, connection. I'm serious. Don't laugh. Why are we laughing? Just kidding. Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:53:06]:
So

Ben Baker [00:53:08]:
Did you realize that you are in a triangle because you your birthday isn't March 16?

Addy Diaz [00:53:14]:
Yes. Listener, Ben and I are just a few hours away from each other in age.

Kenna Millea [00:53:19]:
Yes. Truly. That's it. It's wild. Yeah. Same year, month, day, hours apart.

Addy Diaz [00:53:26]:
Hours apart. Hours apart.

Ben Baker [00:53:27]:
We're basically twins.

Addy Diaz [00:53:29]:
We look like it. We sound like it. We are twins.

Kenna Millea [00:53:33]:
I'm so far from you both. Okay. We won't even talk about that. Okay. Well, challenge by choice, my friends. Challenge by choice is to consider, are there is there potentially a relationship in your life that could benefit from a little triangle analysis? A little bit of consideration that maybe there are ways in which, there is a call to greater intimacy and vulnerability and risking perhaps some instability, and and, yeah, wading into the waters of insecurity for the good of the relationship and maybe dismantling that table, pulling that leg out, and trusting that you and this person that you care about and wanna be in relationship with can do this. And so that challenge by choice is a little bit of reflection. Pick one relationship that maybe has felt, yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:54:32]:
You know, you've got a spidey sense, and and has felt off and give that some consideration. So that is our challenge by choice. And I am going to pray us to a close. Shall we pray? Shall we call upon this god who is Triune, actually? Okay.

Ben Baker [00:54:47]:
Oh, there we go. Nice.

Kenna Millea [00:54:48]:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord God, thank you for making us in your image and likeness, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for making us to desire relationships to thrive when our relationships are healthy. And, also, Lord, I I do thank you for for giving us these inborn ways of knowing when our relationships are off. And I ask for your your grace to be with us in those areas of relationship where maybe we are in some bad habits. We are, relating in ways that that are not the most loving and charitable and life giving. Go gently with us, Lord, as we examine these parts of our lives and and seek to glorify you through our relationships. We place all of this in your hands, Lord, and we pray in your holy name.

Kenna Millea [00:55:48]:
Amen. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. And thank you listener for being with us once again, for this I had a really great time, geeking out here about triangulation. Join us. Stay along for the ride. Follow us online, thiswholelifepodcast.com. We are there on social media, Instagram, Facebook, @thiswholelifepodcast.

Kenna Millea [00:56:12]:
Let us know how this is benefiting you and what other topics related to relationships should we bring to this round table. Thank you to Addy and Ben. I'm so grateful for your expertise, and I could not have done this without you, truly. Needed needed the other two legs of the table. So thank you, and God bless you all.

Pat Millea [00:56:37]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Addy Diaz [00:56:57]:
Is there such a thing as a two legged table? I'm realizing how far this analogy is potentially falling apart.

Ben Baker [00:57:05]:
What? I don't think so.

Kenna Millea [00:57:06]:
Is that like a pommel horse? Like a

Addy Diaz [00:57:09]:
Yeah. Like a gymnastics yeah. Well, sorry, listener. That's as far as it went.

Ben Baker [00:57:13]:
Or like a really, really wide leg on both sides.