Ep81 Take Back Control Of Your Life

"For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery."
~ Galatians 5:1

What if I didn't sign up for the life I have?
What does my life feel so out of control?
Why do I feel trapped in the life I'm leading?

In Episode 81 of This Whole Life, hosts Pat & Kenna Millea dive deep into what it really means to take control of your life — especially when things aren't going the way you thought they would. This episode explores the broader theme of agency: why so many people feel stuck in passive roles and how modern life — through technology, cultural pressures, and even spiritual ideals — can erode our sense of freedom. Packed with personal stories and practical wisdom, Pat and Kenna explore real strategies for reclaiming healthy agency, embracing flexibility, and living an integrated life in faith and mental health. 

This episode also offers some raw reflections on the tragic shooting at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, as well as highlights of their new Figuring It Out course for those seeking meaningful change. Because truly, freedom and agency are especially important when things don't go the way we planned. Join us for this heartfelt and honest conversation.

Episode 81 Show Notes

Chapters:

0:00: Reflection on the tragedy at Annunciation
21:27: Why is agency, or free will, indispensable?
28:41: What causes a lack of agency?
36:36: What does it look like to live with freedom?
49:42: "I have to" & "I should" vs. Choosing
52:48: Announcing the "Figuring It Out" live course
55:30: Challenge By Choice

Reflection Questions:

1. What is one specific thing that stuck with you from this conversation?
2. Are there areas of life in which you feel trapped? How do you know?
3. What does it look like to live in healthy freedom? When have you lived in healthy freedom?
4. Are there things in your life that you feel like you "have to" or "should" do instead of actively choosing? What could you do differently?
5. How can you choose to engage with your life in a way that lines up with your values?

Register for Figuring It Out: Real-Life Skills for Healthy Minds, Relationships, and Habits, a live, online course for anyone who's ready to thrive

Chapters

• 0:00 Reflection on the tragedy at Annunciation
• 21:27 Why is agency, or free will, indispensable?
• 28:41 What causes a lack of agency?
• 36:36 What does it look like to live with freedom?
• 49:42 "I have to" & "I should" vs. Choosing
• 52:48 Announcing the "Figuring It Out" live course
• 55:30 Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Pat Millea [00:00:00]:
And what I was hearing from these parents is I have given over control of my life to the value of sports or dance or whatever the thing is. And because I have done that, I am not free to make the choice to do something different.

Kenna Millea [00:00:22]:
Welcome to this Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millay, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm with my husband, Pat Millay, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader. We invite you to our kitchen table. Okay. Not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast. For educational purposes, it is not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about this whole life.

Pat Millea [00:01:13]:
Hello, friends. Good weeks, bad weeks, weeks in between. This Whole Life is here for you. And by weeks, I really mean bi weekly, every two weeks stretch. This Whole Life is here for you. And we are back again. Pat and Kenna Millea coming to you from the great state of Minnesota, my love. How are you doing?

Kenna Millea [00:01:35]:
Good. In our vacuous office guest rooms.

Pat Millea [00:01:39]:
Vacuous office guest room.

Kenna Millea [00:01:41]:
The most versatile room in our house.

Pat Millea [00:01:43]:
There is a great. I mean, this episode, of all episodes, which you'll understand in a moment in it feels like beautifully appropriate that after all of the time, money, energy that was invested into building a functional podcast studio that looks decent on video at our office, we now have had to pivot this episode and record in the empty guest room of the house that we're trying to sell. So if you're watching on video, apologies. I'm so sorry. It doesn't get worse than this. Maybe. Possibly. It's 9:30 at night, we're not in our pajamas, but we're about 2 degrees off of that.

Kenna Millea [00:02:24]:
I'm pretty close.

Pat Millea [00:02:28]:
Oh, my goodness. Good to see you, my love.

Kenna Millea [00:02:30]:
Yes. Good to be with you on this.

Pat Millea [00:02:32]:
Indeed.

Kenna Millea [00:02:32]:
Yeah. End of this weekend. Of this hard week. Speaking of highs and hards.

Pat Millea [00:02:37]:
Yes, indeed.

Kenna Millea [00:02:38]:
Really difficult week. We rarely record so close to publish date. Right. So we're like three days out from this episode being published. And do we say that in podcast land? I don't know. Being released, being freed from the.

Pat Millea [00:02:58]:
From the constraints of my computer. What are you trying to say? I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:03:02]:
It's like 10 o' clock at night. All this to say this is. Yeah. Two days now out from the Annunciation. So school tragedy in Minneapolis. And so, yeah, it feels like we've lived a life, like, in the last 48 hours, really.

Pat Millea [00:03:23]:
We always start our episodes with a high and a hard as, you know, so in this episode, we have a joint hard, which is everything that happened on Wednesday morning in Minneapolis. Here we. For those of you who are new to the podcast, you may not know that we live in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. Our office is in south Minneapolis. Our first home was in, what, maybe three miles from Annunciation, something like that. You know, our first parish, where our second child was baptized was. Is like a sister parish with Annunciation, kind of. So there's.

Pat Millea [00:04:09]:
There's any kind of a terrible tragedy. Like, what happened on Wednesday, August 27, is. It's terrible for all of us. Right. I was talking to one of our therapists today. Like, it hits everyone at a different, like, deeply personal level. I think as human beings, anyone can and should, I think, feel like, any degree of sadness, anger, fear when there's any kind of, like, senseless violence like this. But, like, when it happens in your home country, you know, as an American, you feel that it's a personal attack when it happens in your state.

Pat Millea [00:04:51]:
As people in Minnesota, we feel it. People in the Twin Cities, in particular, Catholics, the fact that it happened at a Catholic school to a Catholic institution, not just at a Catholic school, but at Mass, like, there's an extra level of, like, personal and spiritual violation there. Just anyone who's a parent, you know, you can imagine what the parents of these kids, the ones who were harmed and the ones who were not, what they were going through and just all the different levels and every tragedy across the world, you and I are affected by and we pray for and we're struck by. But it's just natural that when it. When it has so much crossover with our personal life, it really is affecting in a very intimate way. And so there have been lots of really difficult, really painful conversations with our own kids, with our friends, trying to just process it emotionally on our own and deal with our own sadness and anger and confusion and all that, trying to help our kids process it in a way that's healthy and can kind of make sense of the world without losing a sense of equilibrium. It's just been. It's been.

Pat Millea [00:06:12]:
And I don't say it lightly, it's been just a hell of a week.

Kenna Millea [00:06:18]:
Yeah. And I think there's many, many hards within it for me. But one of the things that struck me pretty early on was in a text thread with some moms from our children's school, kind of all sharing ideas and questions around how to talk about this with our kids. We were texting on Wednesday during the day before we had, you know, seen our kids after school. And as we were chatting and I'm listening and kind of sifting through a lot of really great wisdom, you know, shared in this community, I realized like, yeah, we're all struggling because we are, we have to talk to our children about evil. Like yeah. And, and it's not natural. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:07:11]:
Our role as parents is to protect and it is to, to, to imbue our children with hope and with reason to, to do hard things and to want to strive, stretch themselves and extend themselves and so to be the one that has to ex, like really bring evil into their world. And especially for our young ones who are, you know, particularly innocent still, like, I was like, oh yeah, like this is, and I didn't choose this. Like the violation is like I did not choose to have to teach my children about this. And so I imagine that, yeah, as, as a human race, like we're experiencing that of this like, yeah, some sense of anger and self righteousness of like I shouldn't have to do this, like I shouldn't have to explain this, you know, to my children and really. Yeah, break through that, that beautiful like purity of and mind and imagination, you know. So, yeah, so many s within. But I'd say that's one piece for me personally. You know, we, as you said, our proximity geographically to our office to Annunciation School has drawn us in to support them and so like so grateful, feel really privileged and honored to be able to be thinking about how we can help care for the psychological needs.

Pat Millea [00:08:40]:
Right, right.

Kenna Millea [00:08:41]:
Of those impacted. And it's like inheriting a new full time job that I like do not feel equipped for. And so think, I mean we have an incredible team and, and we've just been doing like extra consultations and extra meetings, but it's like it's adding a job on top of a job that we're still all trying to do. And also our kids are like acting out and their emotions are coming outsideways, you know, like nothing is letting up right now. So anyways, yeah, I, I, there is like unity in the suffering. Like I trust, as you said, we're all feeling it in different ways about different things. And so in that way there is this sense of solidarity in the Body of Christ. Yeah, right.

Kenna Millea [00:09:16]:
And it's just really hard and it's really exhausting.

Pat Millea [00:09:18]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:09:19]:
So.

Pat Millea [00:09:19]:
Right, right. Yeah. I realized as you were talking that I, this morning I was thinking through like I had. I had felt many things over the past, like 48 hours or whatever, you know, And I think this morning was the first time that there was. That the was like the real experience of anger and like, just like the violation of the whole thing, you know? And what's tricky is there's truth that goes deeper than my own anger or any of our anger, obviously. And there's, you know, talking to our kids. Our kids are. Some of them are younger, which means the younger ones are terrifically blunt with their questions about existential evil.

Pat Millea [00:10:12]:
Right. Because they don't know any better. They're just asking really matter of fact questions about terrible realities that they shouldn't even have to be considering. Right. And I do think a part of the anger, I think is that violation of like this killer has now forced you and I and every parent who has had these conversations has forced us to bring this darkness of the world into the lives of our kids. And it just, like I, I know the world can be a really dark place and I know that they will need to be prepared for that and they need to know that that is out there in the world. But it does, it feels like the kind of thing that I think every parent wants the right to introduce that to their kids on their time frame, with their manner, in the way that they would like to get it across on their terms. On their terms.

Pat Millea [00:11:22]:
Thank you. Yes. And I get that violation is infinitesimal compared to the violation of families who had children who were in the church and were not physically harmed, but will deal with this trauma for the rest of their lives. Maybe the kids who were physically hurt and are in the hospital, the ones that were actively praying for to get physically better, you know, the ones, the sweet little kids who were killed, you know, I can't imagine that version of a violation, the feelings that come out of that. But I think the. The has been trying to navigate, like, within myself and for our kids, like, how do you balance the rightful anger that comes from facing evil and the desire for mercy to be with everyone involved, including the murderer. Right. We don't know how God's judgment works, but it's appropriate and it's good for us Christians to pray for God's mercy to be with everyone.

Pat Millea [00:12:30]:
Right. Even in the midst of undeniable, like the ultimate evils of the world. Right. So just trying to like, navigate that like, within myself and with our kids has Just been, like, really difficult. And at the same time, I'm really grateful to have the kind of faith that has a really firm foundation that I don't have to ask what is true. I have to ask, how am I going to navigate truth? How am I going to relate to truth myself? How am I going to communicate truth to our kids?

Kenna Millea [00:13:10]:
But it's so tempting to abandon truth, you know, that God has won, like, the victory has been won in such a dark moment. It's like, where is the light to rest?

Pat Millea [00:13:20]:
In despair and in anger and rage and, you know, and all the things that are really natural emotional reactions, but being sure not to choose them and to stay in that place actively, you know, so that's our hard. If you're listening to this, even if it's six months later, maybe you can call back to maybe this was really difficult for you. And I think it's suffice it to say at this point that we are praying for everyone involved. From. From the people who have died, praying for the repose of their souls, from the people who are recovering and praying for their health, from the people who have experienced deep trauma, praying for their recovery and healing, for the families who are dealing with navigating this with their own kids, to all of us who are just affected by this as children of God and who just. When anyone suffers, we all suffer. Um, so you all are in our prayers and. Yeah, just a.

Pat Millea [00:14:27]:
A blessing to be able to appreciate the gift of life, even in the face of senseless evil, you know, so well.

Kenna Millea [00:14:39]:
Yeah, I think actually that is as good of a segue as I'm going to get into a high from there, which is the gift of life. Like, it's this odd thing. When I left work today, it's been just a grind. Like, I don't. I honestly don't know the last time I've put in, like, such long, like, really intense hours. You know, it was the last couple days as. As we're just thinking about our. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:15:03]:
As a best response as a clinic and coming home from work today, some, you know, projects had been wrapped up and. And kind of felt like things were at a resting spot, at least for now, heading into the weekend. And there was. Yeah, just this sense of stepping even more fully into reality of like, I. I do still have this gift of life. Like the Lord does call me on and. And coming home to you and the kids this afternoon, it was like, yeah, I want to relish this and. And I want to appreciate this.

Kenna Millea [00:15:41]:
And it was just so simple. I Mean, tonight we sat. We made frozen pizzas. Like we were not capable of more than frozen pizzas and boxed Mac and cheese. That was like dinner tonight.

Pat Millea [00:15:51]:
And gourmet.

Kenna Millea [00:15:52]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:15:53]:
That's all that we could muster.

Kenna Millea [00:15:54]:
Some of our kids had friends over. We'd outsource one kid to another friend's house and, and just like sitting around the dinner table and talking. It's the beginning of the school years. Like talking to our kids and their friends about favorite classes, favorite teachers, new kids at school and sports and all this stuff. And, and it was just, it was so simple. But it really felt like, I don't know, it. It felt like this glimmer of the Lord being like, I told you, like the victory has been won, like there will be light even amidst this darkness. And it comes in this most natural, simple way of relationship, which I feel like is the anthem of my life.

Kenna Millea [00:16:33]:
But. But, yeah, so it was just so good and so pure and so thank you for, yeah, letting that. That be tonight. Letting us have just a really simple, carefree night. Our kids went to bed way too late, but it's because we were at the park with friends and hanging out and just really, I don't know, just being in the presence of true goodness and beauty and communion with one another was good.

Pat Millea [00:16:57]:
It is that strange thing that like, again, like you and I, our children go to a Catholic school, but they do not go to Annunciation. So this was not some direct physical attack on our children. Right? But there is that sense when, I mean, you and I have been through tragedy. Most people listening have been through some kind of a tragedy. And in the wake of some significant life altering crisis, there is that feeling of like, will I ever laugh again? Right? Like, will things ever be okay or normal? Or like, will I ever just tell a joke again? Like, there's that feeling, right? So. And then there's the next feeling, which is like the first time that you really laugh out loud, like a big laugh. It can sometimes feel like a betrayal of the thing or person that was lost. Right? Like, well, am I not honoring the person who died, let's say survivor guilt? If I'm allowing myself to be happy, shouldn't I be sad all the time? You know? And it, on the flip side of that coin is that that is exactly the point of connection and love in the first place is for that kind of joy and freedom.

Pat Millea [00:18:11]:
You know what I mean? But, but it is, it takes a step. It takes, I would even say maybe a step of the will to get over that hump of like okay. I'm choosing that. It's okay. And it's healthy to be joyful.

Kenna Millea [00:18:22]:
I'm gonna give myself permission.

Pat Millea [00:18:23]:
Right? And it doesn't mean I'm not sad or it doesn't mean I won't grieve ever again. What it means is right now, this is the appropriate response to what's in front of me, which is a bunch of kids telling goofy stories about school and middle school football. You know, just. Yeah, that was really great. My. My high is from a few weeks ago. We, for many reasons this summer, both limit of time and limit of money as well, frankly, did not go on some big, extravagant family vacation. But your grandpa and your extended family has a cabin across the border in Wisconsin.

Pat Millea [00:18:59]:
And we were able to use the cabin for a full week, which we have never done before. And it was just so lovely and peaceful and fun and joyful. We just ate meals on the pontoon. We jet skied. We had a couple families of friends come up for little day trips to come hang out with us. We went to mass in the little small town parish. A couple times. We ate dinner in the Little Lake Bar, you know, with our kids, which they thought was hysterical.

Pat Millea [00:19:29]:
And the bartender had to tell our kids to get away from the bar because that's for adults, and to quit trying to play, like, pull tabs, basically, like the bar games.

Kenna Millea [00:19:39]:
Even Wisconsin has its boundaries.

Pat Millea [00:19:42]:
And it was great. It was just like, really precious family time. It was literally the week before school started, so it was the final, like, little glimpse between sports and activities and work and then school starting at the end of summer. And it was just really precious to have everyone in the same place and just, like, be together, celebrate, enjoy creation, enjoy each other. And it was. It was beautiful.

Kenna Millea [00:20:05]:
So, yeah, it was really special.

Pat Millea [00:20:07]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:20:07]:
Yeah, for sure.

Pat Millea [00:20:09]:
I am really excited for this episode. Maybe not as excited as you are. I'm not sure.

Kenna Millea [00:20:14]:
I feel like that's often the story because these are my little brain babies.

Pat Millea [00:20:18]:
Yep. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:20:19]:
So this is the part where I'm supposed to tell us what we're talking about.

Pat Millea [00:20:21]:
Well, let me. Let me propose that we can tee it up like this, because I was thinking about this earlier today, and if this is bad, we'll just cut it out. It's fine. So if you hear this, what's coming, in a moment, it means that Kenna liked it and we kept it.

Kenna Millea [00:20:35]:
Is it a game? Are we about to play a game?

Pat Millea [00:20:37]:
No. I wish. Oh, geez. No, today.

Kenna Millea [00:20:39]:
Too late for that.

Pat Millea [00:20:40]:
August 29, 2025 is not the Episode for a game. Maybe next week when we talk about sex. Maybe not. I don't know. We'll see.

Kenna Millea [00:20:47]:
There's the teaser for you.

Pat Millea [00:20:49]:
Okay, so my thought process was so in, in all of the conversations that we've had about the tragedy and annunciation, one of the conversations has been how do you appropriately communicate to anyone, to yourself, to your friends, especially in our case, to our kids, this both and scenario of the fallen world that we live in, Right. If our kids were to ask us, and some of them have asked in kind of oblique ways, are we safe at school? Right? This happened at a school, it happened in a church, at a school. When our kids at our Catholic school go to an all school mass, are they safe? Right. And on one hand, I think it's very honest and appropriate to say to our kids, and I'm sure that you have maybe had conversations with your kids as well, you are as safe as you could possibly be. And we could list the things that we and your principal and your pastor and your teachers, all the things that we do to ensure that you are safe where you are. There's all these, the doors and the protocols and the lockdowns and the staffing and the security and whatever, right? That's all true. I believe that for many of us, we are as safe as we could be physically in the place that we are, including when our kids go to school. On the other hand, it is also true that no one is ever perfectly safe.

Pat Millea [00:22:20]:
And the moment you step out of your house, even before you step out of your house, pain and suffering could visit you at any point in time. And it could be something really violent and senseless like the shooting and annunciation. It could be something as simple as a car accident that hurts or kills somebody. It could be a disease that comes out of nowhere. Security is guaranteed to no one. So how do you navigate that? And I think for the purposes of our conversation today, one of the natural kind of emotional reflexes of a parent is to say, well, everyone gather in close and you're not going to go out into the world. You're not going to go out to school, you're not going to go to the movies with your friends. You're not going to play a sport where you might get injured.

Pat Millea [00:23:09]:
You're not going to be in a situation where you have to interact with people that think differently from us. Because all of that out there is a threat.

Kenna Millea [00:23:18]:
Yeah, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:23:20]:
So that, so that's, I feel like that, you know, we did not plan anything to do with what happened. On Wednesday morning with this episode. But I couldn't stop thinking about that, about the idea of how much freedom and autonomy we give our children, what kind of freedom and autonomy and agency we desire for ourselves.

Kenna Millea [00:23:41]:
Yeah. Well, and I think in particular then, when we don't have that freedom and that autonomy and agency, what. What happens then? And this lack of vitality, this lack of. We talk a lot about, like, thriving, being full of life. And so, yeah, just some. Some backstory on this is also that, you know, Pat, between kind of our speaking and training ministry and then feedback we get from the podcast, certainly from the clinical ministry, of working with individuals and couples and families in therapy, a common thread that we will often talk about and find kind of resurfacing again and again and again is this idea of agency, this idea of being able to feel like you're in the driver's seat of your life and not in some egomaniacal, controlling way.

Pat Millea [00:24:46]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:24:46]:
But in this way of participating in God's plan for your life and actively taking a role in responding to his call. Right. If we're going to think about it in faith terms.

Pat Millea [00:24:59]:
So is that the definition you would offer for agency is just having rightful control over the choices of my life?

Kenna Millea [00:25:08]:
Yeah, I would say actively making choices in my life, engaging, like, the choices of my life, being. Being able to stand by the choices that I'm making in my life. So, yes, a lot of feedback that we get of folks asking for help around this. And I know I'm in a relationship that I shouldn't be in. I don't know how to get out. I know I'm in an unhealthy dynamic with my family of origin. I'm stuck in a role or I've got a part to play. I'm kind of not able to move forward in my own life because of the way that I feel beholden to my family fortune.

Pat Millea [00:25:49]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:25:49]:
I've got a demeaning boss who I can't seem to stand up to, can't seem to speak up to or set any boundaries with. Right. Like. Like the. The. The conflict is I know that something about this isn't right. It's not what I'm made for. And yet I can't seem to own what's in my control.

Kenna Millea [00:26:08]:
Right. What we hear from folks is, no, I know that this isn't okay. And yet I don't have the skills. I don't have the tolerance to do the hard thing, to do the upsetting thing, to do the risky thing. Back to what you were Talking about earlier, those were all risks you were naming of, you know, putting ourselves in vulnerable places, going out on a limb, doing uncomfortable things. So it's that space that we're talking about for ourselves in those moments, for those listening, in those moments where we know that something needs to be different. And yet somehow we haven't yet gotten ourselves to a place where, where we can do that. And, and the issue is that there's a lot of literature, research coming out that this is increasingly a problem.

Kenna Millea [00:27:00]:
Maybe we could say that there were generations in the past that had the, the, the pendulum had swung in the other direction and there was too much of a sense of control and. Right. And this is where we get maybe micromanagement and things like that. So we're talking about that other end. And it seems to be more and more prevalent as, as the generations move on. And so maybe we could start by talking about, like, yeah, how do we. How does this happen? Like, what, what might be contributing to this increased sense that we're hearing from more and more folks that this is an issue. And so the first thing to think about is technology.

Kenna Millea [00:27:38]:
And I don't mean it in the usual, like, bashing of like, we all just know screens are bad and they like, fry your brain or something. That's my, that's what I'm gonna sound like going to my grandma. Grandpa.

Pat Millea [00:27:51]:
Your grandparents were from Hawaii and Minnesota. They didn't sound like that. My grandparents sound like that. My sweet grandmother from Mobile, Alabama sounds like that.

Kenna Millea [00:28:01]:
So. But, but what I mean by technology is my love, Peter Kreef, how he would define it, which is technology is anything that's meant to make our life easier. Right. So I'm not talking about just iPhones and laptops and whatever I'm talking about.

Pat Millea [00:28:17]:
But any like, easy button.

Kenna Millea [00:28:18]:
Basically.

Pat Millea [00:28:19]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:28:20]:
Like, we live in a society where so much. We have so many industries that are focused on making life easier. Right. Like, we are a forward moving, progressive thinking race. Like the species over under times a.

Pat Millea [00:28:35]:
Week that you and I order things for. Drive up at Target.

Kenna Millea [00:28:40]:
Okay.

Pat Millea [00:28:41]:
Over, under, Ouch. Over, under three. Over, under three and a half.

Kenna Millea [00:28:45]:
That is very convicting. Why are you doing this to me right now?

Pat Millea [00:28:52]:
Because I want to publicly embarrass you. No, I'm kidding. Just an example of like, yes, some of the things, some of the easy buttons of the world, some of the technologies of the world are super helpful. We get our groceries via instacart because I would rather pay the little upcharge for someone else to get the Groceries than drag seven children through Aldi and tear the place to shreds. Right. When you pay for all the food that you don't get to eat because it was just dropped on the floor, it really ruins your budget. It's cheaper, probably, actually for Instacart. So some of it's very good and healthy.

Pat Millea [00:29:21]:
Right. But.

Kenna Millea [00:29:22]:
But it's. But it's gotten us accustomed to not having to do hard things. Right? Like when I order the index card box holder thingamajiga, which I swear, we.

Pat Millea [00:29:32]:
Buy these children, which, by the way, can I give you a funny little, like, end of that little story? So we ordered that for drive up at Target. That's one technology that we aimed for. They didn't have it. It was out of stock. So I hit one button. They're just gonna mail it to my house for free.

Kenna Millea [00:29:47]:
Okay. Well, now we're getting hate mail about how we are, what our carbon footprint is like and how we are just killing the environment as malaise. Thanks for outing us.

Pat Millea [00:29:55]:
Well, three ounce index card holder.

Kenna Millea [00:29:57]:
Okay. Oh, my gosh. But the point is this, right? Like that. That all of that is set up to prevent you or I from having to do a hard thing, like drive and hunt around and find this thing or, like, let our son use a rubber band. I don't know. Like, aren't there other ways that he could hold these index cards? I don't know, Preach. Or tossing out last year's and using the same box. I don't know.

Kenna Millea [00:30:19]:
Anyways, so just this, this. We are a culture of technology. And I don't mean electronics.

Pat Millea [00:30:26]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:30:26]:
I mean, we have this expectation that if things are hard. Oh, we must not be thinking about this clearly. Like, there's got to be a workaround. There's got to be, like a loop hole that I can find and get out of this hard thing. So I'd say that is a piece of what has contributed Here in my 10pm eyeballs cannot see what I'm saying. Okay. I would say this falls under the concupiscence category. Goes literally back to the garden.

Kenna Millea [00:30:57]:
And that is blame. Right. Blame has been a part of our human experience from the beginning. Right. When. When Adam's like, but she took the bite first.

Pat Millea [00:31:10]:
And she's like, but it was the snake. It was his fault.

Kenna Millea [00:31:13]:
Let's just pass the blame ball.

Pat Millea [00:31:15]:
Right?

Kenna Millea [00:31:16]:
And so this. This, yeah. Difficulty with accepting internal responsibility, accountability, and looking externally. Right. That is just part of us as humans. And so we are susceptible to this. And so this, this victim mentality that we hear, I think often now. Yeah, it's something that's been with us.

Kenna Millea [00:31:36]:
We act like it's new. No, it's not. Yeah, it's, it's been there. Maybe it is rearing its head more, more prevalently than ever before, but it's, it's been around.

Pat Millea [00:31:45]:
Do you remember the email we got last year from the PE teacher at our kids Catholic school? The punchline of the email was, your son is a leader in his class. He has a great opportunity to help the other children in his class to be responsible and dutiful and positive with their classmates. But the context was that in his PE classes all the children blame everyone else. Well, the boys when something, all the. Let's be, let's be more specific. The boys blame everyone else when things go wrong in a game. So if they make a mistake, they.

Kenna Millea [00:32:24]:
Just throw their teammate on it.

Pat Millea [00:32:25]:
It was certainly never their fault. Right. It was a bad call. It was. The rules were not fair. It was. They were picking on me specifically. It was.

Pat Millea [00:32:33]:
And you can list the litany of things that every 10 year old boy is willing to put blame on except himself. Right.

Kenna Millea [00:32:41]:
Thanks be to God. Tommy Boyd, you're amazing for calling that out and correcting it. Right. Like that's what our world needs is, is adults who are saying to us as children, otherwise we are going to act like children as adults.

Pat Millea [00:32:53]:
Right.

Kenna Millea [00:32:53]:
To say no, no, you don't know.

Pat Millea [00:32:56]:
Like ownership, responsibility, move on.

Kenna Millea [00:32:58]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, I'd say number two of like, how did we get here? What, what contributes to this? I'd say the final thing. This one's like gonna come out of left field, I think. But I'm gonna call it like a hyper spiritualizing to like passivity that masquerades as like obedience and docility. So it's, it's saying, but I'm waiting for a sign from the Lord. I'm waiting for like if he really willed that he would, he would orchestrate that to happen.

Pat Millea [00:33:35]:
Interesting.

Kenna Millea [00:33:36]:
And, and I would push against that.

Pat Millea [00:33:38]:
And like I'm waiting for God to do the work.

Kenna Millea [00:33:41]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:33:41]:
Because I'm not going to do it.

Kenna Millea [00:33:43]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:33:43]:
Like that kind of thing.

Kenna Millea [00:33:44]:
Yes. And I hear that. Like, I hear that.

Pat Millea [00:33:47]:
Interesting.

Kenna Millea [00:33:47]:
In, in populations that we serve and with, you know, in my work. Yeah, I hear that. And, and it's tricky because it's like, it presents as piety, like it presents as so faithful.

Pat Millea [00:34:01]:
Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:34:02]:
And like, wow, look at her patience, look at her obedience. And, and I can fall into that.

Pat Millea [00:34:08]:
Wait upon the Lord.

Kenna Millea [00:34:09]:
Yeah, And I can fall into that trap, too, because sometimes it really serves me to, again, not have to pick up, you know, pick myself up, dust myself off and do the hard thing and get back in there with the boss. That really irritates me and. And have a constructive, maybe conflictual conversation or come back to you and, you know, say, okay, let's try that again. Like, yeah, sometimes it's EAS to be like, well, I'm just. I'm waiting for the Lord to change, Pat. So, you know, in the meantime, I'll just.

Pat Millea [00:34:37]:
You can keep waiting. Yeah, we're both working on it over here.

Kenna Millea [00:34:42]:
I'll just sit here and brood in my resentment and feel more entitled to pull away and be less engaged. You know, you can hear how it happens. And so. So I would say those are kind of things I'm thinking. Anything else that you feel like I'm missing, Pat, from your own vantage point, especially in ministry, related to this idea of, like, how does this happen? Like, how do. How do people really step back from being in the driver's seat of their lives?

Pat Millea [00:35:08]:
Nothing that I can identify as what I think is being a cause of this feeling of being out of control, kind of trapped by the circumstances of my life. What I'm more interested in at the moment is turning more toward, like, what are the consequences of feeling, like there's a lack of agency in someone's life. You know, you and I have talked enough that I know that there are legitimate and sometimes significant mental health challenges that come from someone feeling like they are not in the driver's seat of their own life. What have you seen that you have identified? This is a problem. It's not just an inconvenient thing. This is the thing that really limits people's joy and peace.

Kenna Millea [00:35:57]:
Yeah. Well, again, to go back to kind of that picture I painted earlier, right, Of. Of someone who is aware that something in their life is. Is not as it's meant to be, not as. Not as God desires it for them. And they aren't taking the steps, controlling what they can right in their garden, like in what's. What's theirs to own, aren't taking those steps, that fragmentation, that. That splitting, that fracturing disintegration of the person that, I mean, that is a large part of.

Kenna Millea [00:36:31]:
Of what gives rise to anxiety, to depression, to isolation, pulling away. You know, again, we can talk about numbing behaviors, addiction, you know, things of that nature. So, I mean, really, any. Any mental health concern, you know, kind of run of the mill, anything you're Thinking about. Yeah. Can it be connected to this? Absolutely. Is that what we see? Absolutely. It's why it is concerning on a human level, much less.

Kenna Millea [00:36:57]:
Right. On. On a spiritual, supernatural level of like, where is this soul? Like, like, how. How is this soul able to reflect, like, the goodness, the creativity of the Lord when it's taking such a passive role in its own life? So I think then to. To consider what does it look like? Right. How would we know if. If we are living a full life, being able to. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:37:26]:
Really thrive and not just be a ghost, like, wandering the days of. Of one's own life? Um, so the first. I think this, this sounds like very. I don't know, I. I feel like I'm a product of the 90s when I say this, but, like, I think people who are in the driver's seat of their lives are setting goals and, and achieving them. They are.

Pat Millea [00:37:49]:
Was that a 90s thing?

Kenna Millea [00:37:51]:
They will.

Pat Millea [00:37:51]:
Achieving goals?

Kenna Millea [00:37:54]:
I don't know.

Pat Millea [00:37:55]:
We haven't been doing it for two decades. That's all I know.

Kenna Millea [00:37:58]:
I just mean I feel like it was a focus. I don't know if maybe it's because I was parented in the 90s, but.

Pat Millea [00:38:03]:
Right, right.

Kenna Millea [00:38:04]:
And not to say that people don't do it today. I don't mean that, but. But I feel like it was more of a focus then of like, of. Of really being able to name something and like, go for it. And maybe I mean it like in a. In a faith context of that, I don't know, got like, taboo of, like, can't you just accept who you are and, like, receive what you've. What you've been given and what have you. And this idea of like, going for something, like.

Kenna Millea [00:38:27]:
And what I'm talking about is like, challenging yourself, like, being able to, To. Yeah. Press up against discomfort, like, push the envelope on your own limits. People who are fully alive, like, find a sense of excitement. They. They find a sense of adventure, like, in life and are willing to do new things, do risky things. So that would be one thing. I would say another thing kind of related to that is taking risk.

Kenna Millea [00:38:57]:
Right. And that's kind of inherent in setting a goal. Like, the risk is I might just fail. And regardless if anyone else knows that I'm trying to do this thing, like, I know on a certain level, but. But taking risks and being able to again withstand that, that emotional psychological discomfort of making mistakes. Very, very relevant situation. Recently, we are working on something at work, and I was sharing with you after some soul searching, after some therapy after some prayer, like this awareness that I had of like, I'm afraid to fail. Like what comes, what really it comes down to is like, I'm afraid to fail.

Kenna Millea [00:39:34]:
And like the story that I was telling myself that was holding back from this place of like, oh, I really want to try this thing. I really think this would be good. I really think this would be beneficial for others. But I'm really nervous about it. Right. I was in that stuck place and so helpful for us to have a conversation about it, Pat, and for us to be able to talk it through and me to be able to really name, like, what am I actually afraid of? Like what at the end of the day is so stinking scary about this for me, being able to look that in the eyes and go, yeah, I am going to undertake this risk. It's worth it. Like what we have to gain is worth it.

Kenna Millea [00:40:10]:
So that, that mentality I think is a sign of someone who's really living in a space of agency.

Pat Millea [00:40:17]:
Yep, that makes sense. I'm thinking back to all the situations I can think of. You know, there are maybe obvious and really tragic situations where someone's freedom is limited by an external force that literally, like there's an oppressive boss or there's a domineering parent or there's a spouse who is demeaning and condescending. Right. Those things are terrible. And those kinds of people need resources, they need support, they need oftentimes an exit strategy out of that terrible situation. But I think more often you and I have encountered with friends in ourselves, with clients, an experience where someone feels trapped and out of control because of values that they have surrendered their life to and now have ended up in a place that they didn't want to end up at. So a couple examples that maybe will help paint a picture.

Pat Millea [00:41:20]:
I think they're probably pretty applicable for many people. I think years ago in youth ministry of the times, that I would be with parents of teenage kids who are super busy and maybe they were really busy in sports that that's typically like the villain of, you know, youth ministers, basically. Yeah, right. So like youth ministers have things like go to mass on Sunday. That's a non negotiable things like a confirmation retreat on the weekend. Right. And you know what happens on the weekend? Tournaments. Tournaments happen on the weekend.

Pat Millea [00:41:50]:
So just so many times when parents would, they would, and I genuinely mean like well intentioned, good ed, faithful people would come to me and they would say, listen, faith is important to us. We want to go to mass, we want our child to go on this retreat this weekend, but he or she has a tournament, he or she has a performance. So what are we supposed to do? My hands are tied. I have no choice is what they're telling me, right? And I can imagine years ago, they signed this kid up for dance or soccer or football or volleyball, whatever. The thing is. And that's a value. And you and I share that same value with our kids. Like, we want our kids to be active.

Pat Millea [00:42:35]:
We want them to pursue excellence. We want them to be confident and to support their teammates. Those are all very good things. But we've been very clear with our kids, and we have to revisit it with ourselves from day one. Go back to our episode with Matt Burke about not letting the value of sports become greater than the value of faith in our family. That's an ongoing conversation for us. And what I was hearing from these parents is I have given over control of my life to the value of sports or dance or whatever the thing is. And because I have done that, I am not free to make the choice to do something different.

Pat Millea [00:43:14]:
And what I was hearing was this. You know, they were apologizing, but not really, like, they weren't going to change anything. They were just saying it's the way it is. I wish it were different, but it's not. It's what we got to do. And what I would. I would occasionally try to push back in a gentle way with is you get to choose. You know, like you today.

Pat Millea [00:43:33]:
Today is Thursday. Tomorrow is the tournament and the retreat. They both start on Friday. You are going to make a choice tomorrow about what your kid does. And they have some choice, too, right? They were maybe 15, 16. They have some choice, but you get to make a choice. Whatever choice you make, there will be benefits and there will be suffering.

Kenna Millea [00:43:53]:
Always consequences.

Pat Millea [00:43:54]:
You have to know that going in, right? Which suffering are you more willing to live with? Is it the suffering of maybe some consequences from the coach and sitting out for a game? Is that the consequences of maybe having your kid? Not really think faith is that important compared to the things of this world. You know, I can't tell you what your value should be. I can tell you the reason that I think faith is the more important value. But you get to make that choice, right? I can think of all the folks that we know that have made beautiful decisions about different values around family life, right? The kinds of choices that someone would have to make where they envision their life going a certain way. And maybe even before they got married, before they ever had kids, they thought to themselves because of what they were shown or because of something that they learned. A good family is the family that eats every single meal together at all times. Or a good family is the family that homeschools their children up to a certain age no matter what else happens. A good family is the family that, that goes to the park on Sunday afternoons.

Pat Millea [00:45:01]:
Whatever the thing, fill in the blank, right? And then if life happens, if another child is born, if activities get busy, if someone gets a new job, it presses up maybe against some of those values. And then there's that feeling sometimes for a lot of folks that if I let go of this value of the homeschooling, of the Sunday at the park, of having every single meal together, I have somehow failed. So I'm almost constrained by the value that I have surrendered to ahead of time instead of surrendering to the ongoing and I would say, very dynamic will of God.

Kenna Millea [00:45:42]:
Well, and here's what I would say too, right? Like the family dinners, the homeschooling, those are expressions of a value. And the expression can change over time. When I'm in the driver's seat, when I'm not, I feel like not being able to homeschool. I'm, you know, hamstring, hog tied. What's the thing?

Pat Millea [00:46:02]:
You're either one, actually.

Kenna Millea [00:46:03]:
Oh, okay.

Pat Millea [00:46:04]:
Hamstrung or hog tied.

Kenna Millea [00:46:06]:
So I'm not allowed

Pat Millea [00:46:07]:
But not ham tied, otherwise you're mixing your metaphors. Yeah, right.

Kenna Millea [00:46:13]:
But so, so I would say actually that, that there is a chance to live out agency, right. As things shift as needs change in a family. If you are in the driver's seat and if you're not, then you feel like, oh, you know, because my husband lost his job and now I have to go to work and I can't homeschool the kids. Oh, I can't live out that value. And it's like, no, it, it needs creativity, it needs re envisioning. So I would say thank you for teeing out my next thing, which was that people who are living in this way are, are have a problem solving mentality. Oh, they, they encounter these kinds of challenges, they encounter these kinds of changes and they look at it and say, like, yeah, how can I flex with this? How can I move with this? I was talking to one of our clinicians, one of my supervisees the other day, and, and I said to her, like, what's your theory of change? Like, what do you believe moves someone from stuck into forward motion making change that is more adaptive and desirable for their lives. And she was like, she's in grad school.

Kenna Millea [00:47:15]:
And so she's very rightfully, like, figuring some things out, putting some pieces together. And she's like, I just. I know there's something about flexibility in there. There's something about being healthy that has to do with flexibility. And I'm like, absolutely, like, okay, keep chewing on that. Keep running with that. But, but that's, that's this, right? This problem solving, this mindset of like, absolutely, things are not going to go according to plan. I almost expect that.

Kenna Millea [00:47:38]:
I'm ready to pivot. I'm ready to do it differently. I'm ready to re. Envision it. I think the clients that I see who make gains and who are growing in this way move out of that rigidity toward this sense of flexibility. Yeah. And are able to. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:47:53]:
Be more responsive to. To what goes on in life as well as, like, proactive when they see something. Yeah. When something doesn't go according to plan versus, again, feeling like a victim in my circumstances, like now I'm just stuck and stymied. So those are things I'm thinking about, particularly as a therapist, when I'm considering, like, yeah, is this person in. In a sense of really living out their agency, really able to make decisions that are congruent with who they feel called to be?

Pat Millea [00:48:24]:
And I feel like it comes down to maybe like a few key verbs, right. That all of us, or many of us, I should say, we feel, and maybe even it's true, that we have to go to work. Right. Like, if I'm going to function in the world that we're in, I have to go to work. And for those of you who stay at home with your kids, that is a version of work as well. You don't get paid for that. You actually spend a lot of money to do that job. But we have to do the work that is put before us.

Pat Millea [00:48:55]:
That is, in one sense really true. Am I also, at the exact same time, am I choosing to do that work? Just because I have to do some work doesn't mean I have to do this work. So am I choosing this job? Am I choosing this vocation just because I agreed to marry you, my beloved, 16 years ago, thanks be to God. Just because I married you and I quote, unquote, have to be married to you, that doesn't mean that I am actively choosing a loving, fruitful marriage every day of our life, you and I both, every married person, you have to wake up every day and choose to be married to this person. Right. Whatever the marriage certificate says the choosing every day is what really makes a marriage. So I have to do. This is the first barrier.

Pat Millea [00:49:47]:
I think the second barrier might be a different word. I should do this.

Kenna Millea [00:49:52]:
Particularly in faith.

Pat Millea [00:49:54]:
Particularly in faith. And what I was going to say is there are many, many, many things that we really should do, like virtue, goodness, prayer, spiritual relationship with our Lord. Those are things that we literally should do. Right. I'm talking about the things that are not those kind of ultimate values, the things that are more worldly values that we sometimes are convinced we should do if we're going to be worthy. A good parent should drive their kids to every activity under the sun. I should get my kid a phone because every other 11 year old has a phone and my kid feels left out. I should let my wife go cavorting around all the different poker rooms of Minnesota because she loves playing poker every night of the week and I don't see her for weeks at a time.

Pat Millea [00:50:45]:
I'm just talking about you. I don't know about everyone else. Just kidding. I don't know if you would know how to play poker if you sat down. I should do this no matter whether I want to choose it or not. And I think that there's that kind of cliche phrase that's a little edgy. It's cute. Don't should on yourself.

Pat Millea [00:51:06]:
You don't have to mute the little podcast button for your kids in the car. S H O U L D Don't should on yourself. The idea that like imposing these obligations or allowing them to be imposed upon us instead of actively choosing them.

Kenna Millea [00:51:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. So with all that, I know we need to land this plane and I want to come back to. We kind of referenced in the beginning that we have this course that we're releasing for the first time. We've never done this at the mci at the Martin center for Integration. Right. Which is the parent company for this whole life of, of going. Okay, not everyone needs one on one weekly therapy.

Kenna Millea [00:51:50]:
And yet so many of us need the skills, the support, someone to help like train us for, for this. For agency.

Pat Millea [00:51:59]:
Right, Right.

Kenna Millea [00:52:00]:
So this, this course that we've created called Figuring It Out, this eight week course that's going to run this fall. Registrations are open now. This course is meant to tackle exactly what we've been talking about for the last hour and to be working with our clinicians and receiving support from them live in this virtual series. I'm so terrified and so excited all at once. It feels like having a baby of just Like, I know this can be so good. This is so beautiful. This is so wonderful. And also, I have no idea what I'm really saying yes to.

Kenna Millea [00:52:35]:
And, and what I'm really grateful for is that maybe people don't know this, but because of licensing laws and boundaries and restrictions, ethically, we. The MCI doesn't serve outside of Minnesota and Wisconsin for clinical therapy. Yes. For, for, for what you think of as like talk therapy. Right, right. This is different. This is not talk therapy. This is not a process group.

Kenna Millea [00:52:57]:
You're not going to come and like, share your life story and put your traumas on the table and all those things. This is about, let me learn the skills and apply them and get help connecting the dots of things that maybe I'm missing in terms of how to, how to make these shifts, how to make this move, how to build momentum in my life, make these changes I want to make. So this is really different. And that means we can offer it to anyone that wants to, which is so cool. And one of the

Pat Millea [00:53:23]:
Worldwide, baby.

Kenna Millea [00:53:25]:
One of the things that's been really hard about the clinic is people want to receive our care. We want to offer support to them and we can't. And so we're like, gosh, is there a way we can do this that, that would be appropriate? So very excited. There's more information. I'm sure you're going to put it in the show notes.

Pat Millea [00:53:40]:
Totally. Yep. In the episode description below, there will be a link to find out more information to register for Figuring it out, this eight week live online course. So you can find out more information there. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:53:51]:
Yeah. And it is written by. Led by Ben Baker, who's been on several of our podcast episodes, Men and Mental Health, as well as our triangulation episode. And he's just awesome and amazing and he'll be joined by some of our other clinicians and they'll be leading small groups. Like, it's just, it's gonna be awesome.

Pat Millea [00:54:10]:
Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:54:10]:
But. But yeah. So to, to slide into the challenge by choice, the obvious challenge is like, check it out, go to the website, look at the course, consider for yourself or someone else who, who would benefit from a greater sense of agency. Maybe it's a child of yours, maybe it's a roommate who hasn't found a good family fit in a therapist or doesn't really need a therapist, but needs the support, needs the skills. Maybe it's for yourself. So there's that. More than that, I would say the challenge by choice, the real challenge by choice is to consider an area of life where you have maybe fallen prey to this, because I think it happens for all of us, like, this cultural mentality of, like, victimhood and of taking a back seat to life and to consider, like, what is one area where this is happening? And. And how might I even turn the volume up two notches to step a bit more into that place of risk, into that place of vulnerability and discomfort and consider what I can be doing, what I can be taking charge of and owning.

Kenna Millea [00:55:15]:
It's. It's one of my favorite questions when I'm working with clients because, like, they're. They're human like me, and they're focused on the, well, if he would just this. And if she could just stop that. And if. And then I go, oh, be so amazing. They're not here today. So.

Kenna Millea [00:55:28]:
So what's in your garden of control? What would you like to control about the situation? What can you take? Even if it's 1% of the blame pie, what can you take ownership of? So I'd say that's the challenge for tonight.

Pat Millea [00:55:41]:
That's beautiful. Yep. Yep.

Kenna Millea [00:55:43]:
Well, I.

Pat Millea [00:55:44]:
Should. We. Can we. Rock, paper, scissors for who gets to pray? Winner, praise.

Kenna Millea [00:55:48]:
Sure.

Pat Millea [00:55:49]:
Ready? Okay. Oh, on shoot.

Kenna Millea [00:55:50]:
On shoot. Okay.

Pat Millea [00:55:51]:
On shoot. Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot. You win. Rock beats scissors for reasons that no one understands. Would you pray for us, my love?

Kenna Millea [00:56:00]:
It's obvious. I would love to pray for us. Okay, let's do this. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:56:08]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:56:09]:
Lord of life, we praise you. We thank you for creating us in your image and likeness, for giving us the capacity to. To think and to act with our will. God, you are so good. To want us to accept, experience, those faculties, those abilities to not just be. Yeah. Subject to circumstances, but. But to be able to make choices, to pursue you and to open ourselves up to be pursued by you, particularly in this time in.

Kenna Millea [00:56:49]:
In our Church's history, in our country's history, where we are experiencing such deep grief about the tragedy at Annunciation School this week. It is a time for greater agency to take all that we are feeling and let that be converted into. Into choice into action about the things that. That we spend our time and our money and our energy on and how that all connects to what we're doing, what we're feeling right now, what we're realizing right now. So, Lord, be with us and guide us in that process. Guide us in those areas of life where we are not feeling like we are making the choices that align with. With your vision. For who we are called to be.

Kenna Millea [00:57:36]:
We ask for your blessing upon this figuring it out course that those who are in need will receive what they need for from it. And that all things will glorify you all. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Pat Millea [00:57:51]:
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:57:56]:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:58:00]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:58:00]:
Thank you, my darling.

Pat Millea [00:58:01]:
My love. What a beautiful episode. What a beautiful night. I think it's time for you to go to bed. I'm a night owl, so I'm just getting going, but. Yeah, that's right. Friends, thank you for checking us out on This Whole Life again. Go to martincenterforintegration.com/courses or you can click the link below for the link to Figuring It Out, the live online course.

Pat Millea [00:58:25]:
You can follow us on Instagram @thiswholelifepodcast and on Facebook as well. Check us out on YouTube. You can find our website, which has all this information @thiswholelifepodcast.com and until next time when we get to talk about.

Kenna Millea [00:58:42]:
Do you want me to sing it?

Pat Millea [00:58:43]:
No, I don't. Kind of was about to go Salt n Pepa.

Kenna Millea [00:58:47]:
That was a real buzzkill.

Pat Millea [00:58:48]:
I'm just not sure what the licensing laws are. I can see the excitement in your eyes though.

Kenna Millea [00:58:52]:
So speaking of being a child of the 90s.

Pat Millea [00:58:54]:
Coming after this episode, friends, a three episode series on sex, health and relationships. Holy cow, am I excited. On behalf of my beautiful bride, go out there, choose your own life. And we'll see you next time on This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:59:08]:
God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:59:12]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com.

Kenna Millea [00:59:28]:
Keep trying.

Pat Millea [00:59:37]:
Seven kids want seven different meals. This is not freaking Waffle House. Just chill out. I'm as angry as the server at Waffle House. But you don't get to order like a menu.