Ep92 Thank God for My Anxiety? w/ Catherine DiNuzzo

"Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you."
~ 1 Peter 5:7

What is anxiety, really?
How do I process my anxiety when it's not helpful?
Seriously - thanking God for my anxiety?

In this episode of This Whole Life, Kenna and Pat welcome licensed professional counselor Catherine DiNuzzo for a deep dive into anxiety—what it is, why it happens, and how to manage it. Catherine DiNuzzo shares her insights on the biology of anxiety, her work with clients, and the importance of approaching anxiety with self-compassion rather than fear (or more anxiety). The discussion covers the reasons that God built anxiety into our experience, practical strategies for managing anxiety, and how parents can support anxious children. Highlights include Catherine DiNuzzo’s perspective on thanking God for anxiety, grounding techniques, and the ways the Catholic faith naturally integrates mental wellness. With relatable stories and actionable advice, this episode offers hope, empathy, and spiritual wisdom for anyone looking to find peace amidst the struggles of modern life. And yes, you'll even thank God for your anxiety.

Catherine DiNuzzo, MA, LPC is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice, who also operates Sacred Heart Mental Wellness. Catherine earned her Master's Degree in Counseling and Human Services from the University of Colorado-Colorado Springs. Prior to her private practice, Catherine worked for several years in both schools and in agency counseling, especially with Veterans. She has spoken internationally and with many Catholic events & organizations on the topic of mental wellness.

Catherine and her husband, Dave, live in a small rural town in the middle of Kansas with their four amazing children.

Episode 92 Show Notes

Reflection Questions

Chapters:

0:00: Introduction and Highs & Hards
14:02: Why did that make me anxious?
21:55: What is (and isn't) anxiety?
28:06: What causes anxiety?
34:44: But the Bible says to NOT be anxious...
41:30: How do I calm unnecessary anxiety?
48:34: Helping our kids with their anxiety
52:37: Challenge By Choice

Transcript

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:00:00]:
Anxiety makes us feel helpless. And my goal for all of my clients when they first come to me is that by the end of our work, you will make decisions for yourself.

Kenna Millea [00:00:16]:
Welcome to This Whole Life, a podcast for all of us seeking sanity and sanctity and a place to find joy and meaning through the integration of faith and mental health. I'm Kenna Millea, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm happy to bring you this podcast. Along with my husband, Pat Millea, a Catholic speaker, musician, and leader, we invite you to our kitchen table.

Kenna Millea [00:00:40]:
Okay.

Kenna Millea [00:00:40]:
Not literally, but you're definitely invited into the conversations that we seem to keep having once the kids have scattered off to play and we're left doing the dishes. We're excited to share this podcast for educational purposes. It's not intended as therapy or as a substitute for mental health care. So let's get talking about This Whole life. Welcome back to This Whole Life. It is so good to be with you, my darling love. Welcome back, everybody know what was coming there. And our special guest, Catherine DiNuzzo.

Kenna Millea [00:01:20]:
Welcome, Catherine, to This Whole Life.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:01:23]:
Oh, I'm so, so excited you invited me. And I'm excited to talk about anxiety today. So let's get started. Yeah. I like your energy.

Kenna Millea [00:01:31]:
You don't often hear.

Pat Millea [00:01:32]:
Absolutely. Let's do this. That's right. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:01:35]:
So to bring our listeners up to speed, I'm going to share a bit about our special guest. Catherine DiNuzzo is a licensed professional counselor in private practice who also operates Sacred Heart Mental Wellness. Catherine earned her master's degree in counseling and Human services from the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. And prior to her private practice, Catherine worked for several years in both schools and in agency counseling, especially with veterans. She's spoken internationally and with many Catholic events and organizations on the topic of mental wellness. She and her husband Dave, live in a small rural town in the middle of Kansas with their four amazing children. And we'll hear a lot more about your work today. But welcome, Catherine.

Kenna Millea [00:02:16]:
It is a privilege to have you.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:02:19]:
Absolutely. I'm excited.

Kenna Millea [00:02:21]:
And Catherine, we start our episodes with a high and a hard. Just to help bring us all in the know of, like, life lately, what's been going on. And I'm going to hand it off to you first as our guest. What's a high and hard of life in these recent days?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:02:39]:
So I'd like to start with my hard. So I have four kids and they're all teenagers. And this in the last two weeks, two of them bought their first cars.

Kenna Millea [00:02:53]:
I literally just Got chills in my body.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:02:56]:
It's like this. I've like moved them to adulthood. You know, they like bought their first car and it was one of those really powerful moments where they worked their tails off and they saved and they had a goal and they searched and they did all the right things to finally purchase this, you know, 2007 vehicle. Right, that was in their budget. And so in one moment, it was this moment of just feeling so proud of them and excited for this journey. And then both of them, within two days, their cars broke down.

Kenna Millea [00:03:30]:
No lemons.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:03:32]:
They had the reality of adulting. They had the joy of adulting. Like, I got my wheels and oh, now I gotta fix my wheels. And so it was just one of those moments where it's just hard to watch your kids suffer and to watch them have to figure it out. And both of them have done an amazing job really getting out of their comfort zone. And my son worked for three hours yesterday and fixed his truck on his own and came in with, you know, a smile ear to ear of what he was able to accomplish. And my daughter learned about radiators and coolant and how to check it. And I've just been so proud of them.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:04:13]:
But as a parent, you don't want them to have to go through that. So it's been hard just watching them have to live life and realize that those things are hard.

Pat Millea [00:04:22]:
Yeah, no kidding. Oh, that's painful.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:04:27]:
And then my high is that, as you said, I wrote the Catholic guide through anxiety and it's been out for a while. And a couple months ago, an amazing woman came to me and said, have you ever thought about making it in Spanish? Have you ever thought of a Spanish translation? And I said, yes, like we've thought so many times. But just finding the right translator and how you do it, I have no idea even how to start. And she said, can I do it for you? And I'll do it just as a service to the Spanish speaking population that they could have your book. And so this week it was officially published and so now it is available in Spanish. And I just coming having Puerto Rican background, I just feel so proud and excited that I'm going to be able to offer this resources to Spanish speakers. And I'm just so thankful for her for taking a, a step with us and saying she would help. And so, yeah, just a very big high to finally have that resource available in both English and Spanish.

Pat Millea [00:05:33]:
What a service. That's amazing.

Kenna Millea [00:05:35]:
Yeah, that's incredible.

Pat Millea [00:05:36]:
I love that.

Kenna Millea [00:05:36]:
Yeah, the, our awareness at our Clinic of just how few resources are translated into Spanish. And yeah, so I'm. I'm grateful to know this. And we'll link all these things in the show notes so that listeners can. Can check it out. So I'll do my high and hard in. In one event or one. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:05:56]:
Incident in our household, which is Christmas break, was rough in the way that our family, all the togetherness really cemented some poor habits. Habits being yelling, being coming at each other with what John Gottman would call a harsh startup. A lot of criticism, a lot of blame, a lot of. Yeah, just kind of victim screaming at each other. And Pat and I were not immune to this. And we were.

Pat Millea [00:06:29]:
I thought you were just talking about us.

Kenna Millea [00:06:30]:
We were very drawn into the culture that was being incubated here in the Malay House. And so the. The high has been that since then. I think it was like, I don't know, maybe the first week of the new year. You and I had. We'd had many conversations behind closed doors of like, this is not working and this is not moving us to who we believe God is calling our family to be. And we are not teach our children the skills they will need to, like, function in relationships in the real world. And so had to sit down with the kids and really talked about, like, blessed are the peacemakers.

Kenna Millea [00:07:03]:
And what does that mean concretely? And how can we live into that and have just been regularly revisiting that. That's the high. Like, we just. We. There's a lot of energy and motivation and some strong stamina right now around that. And it's. It is making a difference. It's not perfect as the incident with the snow pants this morning would tell us, but.

Kenna Millea [00:07:24]:
But it is. It a vast improvement. And it just reminds me how much our children need us to lead and how much. Yeah, like God will meet us there in those moments. Like, he will give us the grace to do the hard thing. Because I really want to yell a lot still, and I'm not as much. So that's my high. And hard wrapped up in a burrito.

Pat Millea [00:07:45]:
I have to work hard to not use the Beatitudes as a threat, too. Like, do you or do you not want to inherit the kingdom of God?

Kenna Millea [00:07:53]:
Stop screaming at your sister this morning, kid. Without the snow pants, I think you would have been like, no, I just want my snow pants.

Pat Millea [00:08:00]:
A peacemaker, for Pete's sake. Oh, my goodness.

Kenna Millea [00:08:04]:
You, my friend.

Pat Millea [00:08:06]:
I think my high has to have been a lot of different elements of Christmas break like you were talking about. My love I. Catherine, for those, for you and for those who are not aware, I am a well professed Christmas junkie.

Kenna Millea [00:08:24]:
Buddy the elf.

Pat Millea [00:08:25]:
I just get yeah, Buddy the elf, Clark Griswold without all the snafus. I just love everything about Christmas. But, you know, normal family life is messy and reality doesn't always hit my expectations. But this Christmas I think I did a kind of slightly better job managing expectations, being a little more realistic. And I think we just did a good job kind of planning out a relatively manageable Christmas season as well. So we did a lot of. We do like a twelve days of Christmas thing with our family. Mostly just events, like some things in town, some things that we don't even leave the house for, just like things that we can do together as a family.

Pat Millea [00:09:04]:
So we went to the science museum. I think some of the kids highlight was we prayed a candy rosary together. Every kid made a rosary on the table in front of them of marshmallows and M&Ms. And you eat as you go. And they. It was the quietest rosary we've ever prayed as a family. They were very focused.

Kenna Millea [00:09:19]:
Even the teenagers were into it.

Pat Millea [00:09:21]:
So it was great.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:09:22]:
Teenagers would be all in.

Pat Millea [00:09:24]:
Yes, exactly. Can we do that again tomorrow, Mom?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:09:26]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:09:26]:
Daily rosary. Let's go. So it was great. It was, it was one of the more peaceful Christmases that I think we've had.

Kenna Millea [00:09:32]:
And despite the screaming.

Pat Millea [00:09:34]:
Despite the screaming, yes. Yeah, that is still true. Both things happening at the same time. But it was really joyful, really peaceful. I think the hard is. And this will, you know, date the episode, but that's just the way things like this go. We, especially here in the Twin Cities, but nationwide, have been going through all of the ICE and immigration related issues lately. So last week was the week that Renee Good was killed here in Minneapolis, you know, less than two miles from where we're sitting right now.

Pat Millea [00:10:07]:
It just. Minneapolis just. I don't know what it is about this poor city and these cities. I texted my buddies that night, like, how is it always Minneapolis with stuff like this, right? And it just, it's super heartbreaking. The whole thing is a mess. I hate getting into the politics of it because I don't think either side is really right. At least, you know, the harsh left, the harsh right. I think the truth politically is somewhere really in the middle.

Pat Millea [00:10:31]:
But really the hardest part has just been like the human aspect of it. You know, folks that we are connected to in some of the parishes that we're connected to that have been detained or deported, families that have been torn apart. People that we know that are of Mexican or Latino descent who are just on essentially informal house arrest. Like they're afraid to leave their home because they're worried that they'll be grabbed. And some of these are legitimate born in the USA citizens, you know what I mean? But the whole thing is just really messy and it's bringing up all kinds of human brokenness and challenge for everybody. I'm sure in the country is dealing with some of that, but it feels like a really heavy topic, especially locally. So it's been, it's been good in the sense to be able to talk to our kids about it and to bring it back to the gospel and lots of good, like Catholic social teaching principles, things like that, but still just I wish these were conversations that we didn't have to have with five and six year olds to give them a glimpse into kind of the, the suffering of a fallen world. So definitely lots of, lots of hope, lots of prayer, lots of work to be done, but hard in the meantime, for sure.

Pat Millea [00:11:46]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as you said, Catherine, you are thrilled to talk about anxiety, which I don't know if you're the only person in the country, but I'm really glad that we found you because we are coming out of, you know, this is the third and kind of like a, almost like an accidental miniseries, a little bit about genuine mental illness. So two episodes ago we talked to Beth Hlabse of the Fiat program at Notre Dame about loving people who are experiencing mental illness, how to be true companiers and how to manage our own kind of fear and discomfort, how to truly be charitable in moments like that. Last episode we talked to Anthony Isacco about the reality of depression, depression which is different from normal healthy sadness, depression related to our faith. And now we get into another very common but no less painful experience of anxiety in people's lives. And we've got Catherine, who's something of an expert here to be with us. Catherine, maybe just to start off and kind of frame it, you know, the idea of anxiety is thrown around a lot. The word is used sometimes very accurately, sometimes incredibly exaggerated or misunderstood.

Pat Millea [00:13:03]:
So maybe to start off, can you help us understand what is anxiety and why is it so difficult and painful for someone who experiences it?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:13:13]:
So I want to start by probably touching on something you just said before I answer your question, if that's okay. Because one of the things that I do pride myself on and I'm. And I really think we need to be able to do is not be afraid of Talking about anxiety, that anxiety doesn't have to be a hard, scary thing, and it doesn't have to be sad. I can't tell you how many podcasts I've been on that after the interviewer goes, they say, wow, I didn't even know that could be such a fun conversation. Because it's. Because it feels scary and heavy and no one wants to talk about it. And, you know, as we talk about what's happening in our world, how could we not be anxious?

Pat Millea [00:13:53]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:13:53]:
It feels like every day we're hoping that this was the bottom and that I'm going to open my. My newsfeed, I'm going to go about my day, and I'm going to find some good news. And it feels like every day there's more unknown and more hard and more scary. And we live in a world that's just that. It's just a hard time. I really do believe that this is a hard time. We have lots of information and lots of things that we didn't have, you know, 50 years ago at our fingertips. And so anxiety and the feelings of anxiety are rampant.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:14:25]:
And I really do feel that it holds so many people down because we're afraid to talk about it. Also because we think it has to be hard and sad, and we can maybe even laugh and enjoy as we're learning. And. And so I hope that today we see that. And I am very dorky, and my kids make fun of me all the time because I do get excited to get to talk about anxiety, because, again, I feel like it keeps this lie that we're not strong enough, we're not smart enough, that we're weak, we're not holy enough. And I feel very excited and proud to be able to challenge that and be like, no, that's not it at all. And so to go back to answering your question, like, what is anxiety? So at the very beginning of my book, my first challenge is that by the end of the book, you'll be able to thank the Lord for your anxiety. And whenever I'm doing a retreat or a talk at a conference, it's so hilarious to watch everyone's face go, obviously she doesn't know about anxiety.

Pat Millea [00:15:23]:
Yeah, right. Who's this?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:15:24]:
There's no way that I would ever be happy about my anxiety. She don't know what she's talking about. And I think that. So it's a fun challenge for me. I like to win you over by the end. And the idea is that anxiety is a feeling as a label that we put towards A feeling of where our heart rates are racing, our tummy is turning, we have brain fog. And all of that is our physical response to fear that God gave us to keep us safe. So let's imagine that we're walking down a path and we see a big, scary bear.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:16:01]:
We hear its roar, we see its teeth. The way that God made our body is we're gonna take those senses and they're gonna go up into what is called our limbic system. And this is the part of your brain that keeps you alive. It makes sure that you're either safe or you're not. And then as soon as it assesses that you're not safe, that there's something dangerous, it starts pumping out adrenaline and cortisol. And these will help you to get your heart rate up. Because if I have to run away from a bear, I want to have as much oxygen as I can to be able to run from the bear. My stomach starts to turn because if I have to fight the bear, I don't want to be eating my burrito I just ate, right? Like, my body's like, get that out.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:16:45]:
We got to work on fighting this bear, right? My muscles start to feel like a tiger in a cage because it's ready to fight or flight, right? So I kind of just feel my muscles getting pumped up and ready to go. And then there's also a disconnect between what I call our thinking brain, which is that front, right above your forehead is kind of your frontal cortex, where all your decision making is taking place. And so there seems to be like a fog between, like, what I know I know and what my body is telling me. And again, the Lord did this as a gift. Because if I am thinking about the probability of me beating this bear, probably not gonna go after the bear. I'm probably not gonna run. So out of God's love for us, he's like, you know, we're gonna, like, take that guy down a little bit so that your body just reacts. And when there is a bear, this is a good thing.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:17:39]:
This is a place where we say, thank you, Lord, for wanting to keep me safe in a moment of danger. The problem is, is that I say that the limbic system is kind of like the post office. It gets all the information, but sometimes it gets it wrong. So sometimes it's not actually a bear. It's going to the grocery store, it's talking in front of people, it's taking a test, meeting your in laws for the first time. But to that animal brain, to that limbic system, it doesn't know the difference. All it knows is I sense something as dangerous and I'm pumping all this adrenaline and cortisol. And so when we can understand that that reaction within our body isn't bad, but we have to understand it.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:18:24]:
And then we, when we understand it, then we can manage it. Then everything about anxiety changes from something scary and uncontrollable to something that is empowering and manageable. And that's the way that I like to address anxiety. Yeah.

Kenna Millea [00:18:43]:
So. Well, I have a million questions, but let me, let me start with this. Can I can actually take us back, Catherine, to why this? You know, of all the things in, in the world of mental health, all the things that you could kind of specialize in as a clinician, what drew you toward anxiety? So much so that you've written this, you know, Catholic's guide through Anxiety. What has made this, you know, the passion within the field for you?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:19:11]:
I know this sounds like a cop out answer, but I feel like the Lord because I never went to school thinking anxiety is my thing. Now. I did do my, my internship at a vet center working with veterans of the military. And I had an amazing supervisor who really taught me the biology of anxiety. And I saw these big strong men who defended our country and were so noble, feeling so weak because of these feelings of anxiety that were caused by traumas that were real. Right. And how they would wrestle with it and that they wouldn't just hate the anxiety, they would hate themselves for hanging, having anxiety. And I just felt so passionate that if I could help teach people to better understand anxiety, then they wouldn't hate themselves.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:20:07]:
They would see that they are good. They would see that the Lord gave this as a gift. We just have to use it correctly. Like instead of using it against us, we can use it for us. And I just felt very passionate. And the more I learned and the more I combined it with my faith and the understanding how God created us. Good. It just felt like peanut butter and jelly.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:20:27]:
I was just gonna do it and no matter, I would learn different things and I would just always end up back. So I just felt that the Lord really put it on my heart to say, you have a special unique way that I'm going to ask you to share this and put it on my heart. And after a little kicking and screaming, I said, okay, I'll do it.

Kenna Millea [00:20:49]:
Yes.

Pat Millea [00:20:49]:
The Lord's call is never a cop out, by the way, on this show at least. So that makes perfect sense.

Kenna Millea [00:20:55]:
Okay, well, so I have a follow up Question then. So you've referenced this idea that for so many of us, there are real substantial situations of fear where we need that limbic system to kick in, where we need that fight flight. Right. To be able to survive. And then our limbic system gets maybe stuck there, our prefrontal cortex doesn't come back online, and we are doing normal, everyday things that are registering with this heightened sense of anxiety. Like, can you help us understand? Like, how does that come to be? Right. So there's things. As someone who suffers with anxiety, as I do, I know there are certain moments where I'm like, yeah, that's warranted.

Kenna Millea [00:21:38]:
And then there are moments where I'm like, why? Why did I have that response? When I know logically, intellectually, there was no threat, there was no danger. How do we mix those things up?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:21:52]:
So the first thing I also like to do when I do a talk or a retreat is I do a little experiment. And I know it's going to be hard over podcast for anyone to see this experiment, but we're going to do a little experiment to answer your question.

Kenna Millea [00:22:07]:
Okay?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:22:07]:
Okay. So one of the things that really gets us stuck in our anxiety is believing that we have mental control over our limbic system. Now, again, as I said, your limbic system is the part. And I call it the animal brain. So just as we go, I'll probably call it the animal brain because it responds, it doesn't think, it's, like, impulsive. And so this animal brain is in charge of regulating the things that we don't think about. So right now you're not like, breathe, breathe, breathe into making sure you do that, making sure your heart's beating. Thank goodness it's doing all these things again to keep us alive because the Lord doesn't want us distracted with our kids.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:22:48]:
And then we stop breathing and we die. These are all things that he did because he loves us. Right. So this limpic system is in charge of keeping us alive. And we like to believe that we have cognitive power over it, that when it's upset, we can just say, oh, don't be upset, be fine. There's no reason to be worried. And we just think it's going to listen. So we're gonna do this little experiment to see if you, too are one of the only people in the world.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:23:15]:
Okay, Are you ready?

Pat Millea [00:23:16]:
Ready, Ready.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:23:17]:
So with all of your mental ability, I want you to stop your heart from beating.

Pat Millea [00:23:25]:
Working on it. Just a second. Almost there.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:23:29]:
Did it work? I give up. I give up. And again, like, I call that the international giggle. Because it's been very interesting to me that I've done this conference, I've done retreats in Korea, in Europe, throughout America, and I use the same exercise. And no matter what culture you come from, there's a giggle. There's a giggle that says, well, that's dumb. I can't do that. I'm like, yes, exactly.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:23:57]:
So when we're dealing with our anxiety, we have to realize that our animal brain will sense something that. And it makes a decision before our cognitive brain is even aware. An example I give in the book is that if you imagine that you see a scary movie and something jumps out at you, you don't see the thing and go, oh, that's a scary clown. Oh, I'm gonna move back, right? Something jumps out at you, your whole body moves. And then your brain goes, oh, that was a scary clown. So to better understand anxiety, we have to understand the power of that animal brain to keep us alive, and that we have to give it grace, that sometimes it gets it wrong. And that animal brain, again, out of love for us, when something scary happens, it never wants to be scared again. It takes a picture of that moment and says, anything like, this is going to be.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:24:53]:
I'm not going to be surprised. So as soon as I have a memory of that similar to this area, it's going to go into that fight, flight, or freeze immediately producing that. That response. And so an example that I tend to give is that. So I've been married for a couple years and been doing the talking about anxiety. And every once in a while, I'll get anxiety at night. And it's because when I was a little girl, my dad was an alcoholic. And so at my house from seven to midnight was a scary time because you just didn't know if it was going to be a good day or a bad day.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:25:32]:
And so even now, after I've been married to an amazing man, sometimes at night I'll just start to feel anxious. And one time my husband asked me, he's like, Catherine, you are the anxiety counselor. Like, why would you still be having anxiety at night? And I'm like, because my animal brain is sensing something from the nighttime that's reminding it of when it was little. And it's like, I know what to do. I got you. We're gonna be safe. And so I have to stop. And I truly, the first thing I always.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:26:02]:
I say in my book, the first step is to stop and thank the Lord. Like, thank you, Lord, for this response that saved me When I was a little girl, it was helpful at the time. And now I'm safe, like I'm not there anymore. And then I start doing all the strategies I talk about to overcome anxiety. So even me, as someone who talks around the world about anxiety and is very passionate about it, I still have an animal brain that I don't have cognitive control over.

Pat Millea [00:26:30]:
Yeah, yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:26:31]:
So we have to understand in that first initial bit that we have two choices. We can either feel that initial anxiety, anxious response and get worried about it. And then I call it getting on the hamster wheel. You get anxious that you're anxious. And now I'm even more anxious, and I can't stop Ojimmy, which is only telling your brain, we are in danger. We need as much adrenaline and cortisol as possible. Or I can step back and say, okay, Lord, thank you for giving me a brain that keeps me safe. I'm actually safe right now.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:27:02]:
And then I'm going to do things to calm and ground myself.

Pat Millea [00:27:06]:
Yeah. We talked in our episode last week about depression and about how with any mental illness, it can be tempting to try to pin down one cause for why this happened. You know, and the reality is it is just never that simple. Right. You've talked a lot already about biology, about our physiology, hormones, things like that. You also were just talking about kind of external, contributing environmental factors, relational factors, things like that. What do we know about what causes anxiety, either just day to day or like generalized anxiety disorder? What do we know about the factors?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:27:47]:
Well, I think we have to realize that our body is always sensing. So the way that anxiety starts is that we think that our eyes see and our ears hear and our mouth tastes and our skin feel. They don't. They just sense stimulus. There's a stimulus. It sends it up into the brain. The brain processes it. And so what happens with anxiety is that our bodies are always processing things around us all the time, even when we don't notice.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:28:15]:
So, for example, before I said, you have clothes on, you didn't feel your clothes on you, but you do now.

Pat Millea [00:28:24]:
Yeah, yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:28:25]:
Because your brain does not want to go all day long going, I have clothes on, I have clothes on. I have clothes on. Do you feel it? Do you feel it? Do you feel it? So out of, again, God's love for us, he's like, yes, I get. The stimulus is getting sent to the brain, but the brain's gonna go, that's not important. Right. So what happens sometimes is that, well, you will send something that our animal brain will sense as Danger. And our thinking brain is like, that's not important. And we don't even notice it.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:28:48]:
Right. So all day long, our brain is going through this thing. Are we safe or are we not? Are we safe? Are we not? And then what I think really starts to happen with generalized anxiety is that one, we live in a scary world that just keeps giving us more things. Like anxiety tells us this lie that if I just figure out the future, if I just know and I figure everything out, then I'll feel good. Yeah, it'll be okay. But the reality is there's no end to that. There's. I've never met someone who's anxiety who's like, yes, I have figured out the future, and now I'm not anxious.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:29:20]:
There's always like, but then this could happen, and then that could happen. Yeah, right. So. And our body is always sensing. And then again, I do believe one of the crux of anxiety being a real problem is that hamster wheel. Because when every time we get anxious, we reinforce our brain that the anxiety is bad and we need to, like, we're doing that negative reinforcement, it's going to tend to lean that way. And so what we really have to do is start kind of challenging that. That hamster wheel so that we give some space where we can say, like, yes, I know I feel this way, and then what is truth and what do I want to do? But when we haven't done that for years.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:30:00]:
Right. It just starts to become like, everything is anxious. And I'm always trying to avoid the feeling. But again, if I told you right now, don't think about apple pie. What did you both just do so good?

Pat Millea [00:30:11]:
Think about apple pie. Yep.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:30:12]:
Right. So I'm telling myself, don't be anxious, don't be anxious, don't be anxious.

Kenna Millea [00:30:15]:
What am I tend to do?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:30:17]:
I tend to be more anxious.

Kenna Millea [00:30:19]:
I mean, so I'm hearing you say that perhaps it's not anxiety per se that's the issue. It's our response to the presence of anxiety and how we narrate that for ourselves. And the meaning we make when we feel anxious has a lot to do with whether we stay stuck in a place on the hamster wheel or whether we're able to move through it, like you said, with an attitude of thankfulness and maybe resilience to say, oh, that's interesting information. Okay, let me. Let me keep walking.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:30:53]:
And yes, 100% and in the same breath, when we can see anxiety as not a bad thing, because when there's a bear, I Don't want you taking deep breaths and grounding yourself. Right. Like, it actually is a good thing when I need it.

Kenna Millea [00:31:10]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:31:11]:
And so when we can stop seeing it as just this bad thing and more as informational system, and then we decide how we want to handle it again, anxiety makes us feel helpless. And my goal for all of my clients when they first come to me is that by the end of our work, you will make decisions for yourself.

Kenna Millea [00:31:31]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:31:32]:
Because most of my clients, anxiety makes decisions for them. That's when you know you really need help. When your life is. When your decision making is based more on what your anxiety is telling you than what you want. I think that's a really good, just simple analysis of ourselves, like for your listeners. Like, if I'm doing that, then I need to get help because I want you to make your decisions, not anxiety.

Pat Millea [00:31:55]:
My brain goes to like it usually does pop culture and cartoons. Because the most probably recognizable manifestation of anxiety in the past five years has been Inside Out 2. You know, and there you can. There are lots of reasonable quibbles about some of the details of different expressions of emotion, things like that. But what I did appreciate about the movie is exactly that principle, Catherine, that when Riley, the main character, is struggling the most, anxiety has the wheel and anxiety is deciding her life for her. So she doesn't feel like she's in control. She doesn't feel like she can make rational choices. She doesn't really feel like herself anymore, even, because anxiety is dictating her movements in reaction.

Pat Millea [00:32:42]:
Not true response.

Kenna Millea [00:32:46]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:32:46]:
And I'm glad you brought up that movie because I'm a big fan of that movie. I wish, I wish I had a video of going to see it with my kids and they are all like, looking at me like, mom, that's like everything you talk about.

Pat Millea [00:32:59]:
Like, same with us. I know. Yeah. It's. It's a. It's an occupational hazard for children of people like us. Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:33:05]:
Yes. And but one of the things I think that people miss in the movie too, though, is that the way that anxiety kind of sometimes gets a hold is it works.

Pat Millea [00:33:15]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:33:15]:
Right at first. It starts that the anxiety's idea helped her or she felt that it helped her. And so again, when we can change the idea of it's all bad or all good, it's more about, like, what is the feeling I'm feeling in this moment? How am I going to address it and what steps am I going to take to address it? Changes just how we see even the word anxiety.

Pat Millea [00:33:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Kenna Millea [00:33:40]:
Go ahead.

Pat Millea [00:33:42]:
Just. I was going to switch gears a little bit. So for, for us as people of faith, I think oftentimes any, any conversation around mental health, mental wellness can get tangled up oftentimes with the truths of our faith and what we know to be true about, about God, about us, about our destiny. And I think anxiety really fits into that category. You know, from, from a faith context, we get things like Philippians, chapter four, have no anxiety at all. And we get Matthew, chapter six, do not worry about tomorrow. And we get St. Teresa of Avila, Nada te turbe.

Pat Millea [00:34:17]:
Let nothing disturb you. Right. So for us, as you know, Catholics, Christians, how can we relate anxiety to what some of these, like, kind of core Christian principles would hold up as the goal?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:34:31]:
Yeah, and I think the way that I talk about it in my practice is more on the idea of surrender. So I call it the 9010 is that we are going to do 90% of the things that I can ground and that I can know, and then I'm going to give and surrender the 10% to God. And yes, I know some people are saying, oh, you should give 100%, it should be 100% to God. And I say, yes, but I think that's for the other side of like, of when we're in heaven.

Pat Millea [00:35:02]:
Sure.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:35:02]:
I don't know how humanly possible that is for anyone. And even if you listen to the saint stories and just the struggle that they had with that is that it always is, tends to be like, I'm going to do what the God gave me here on earth to help me. And then at the end of the day, I have to surrender this. I have to know that the Lord is working in whatever is going to happen. And because again, anxiety wants to control, to make sure it fixes the outcome to the way that we want. And again, the best outcome we have is the one the Lord wants for us. And so when we can use the strategies that we have and our knowledge and the gifts that he's given us to ground ourselves, and then when there's always that little bit like, yeah, but what about this? Like that part of that kind of anxiety's voice, I just say, almost. Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in thee, and I'm going to give that to you.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:35:58]:
I'm going to keep my, my mind on this side of heaven with what I know, and then give that 10% to the Lord that he's going to take care of whatever. I can't plan, think about or organize or.

Kenna Millea [00:36:10]:
Yeah, yeah, well, And I'm. As I'm listening to you, I'm like, yeah, I mean, that is a relationship that is founded on faith. I mean, if I could know and control all hundred percent, I would have no need of God. Like, I have no need of his providence. I have no need of staying close to him, because I've got it all mapped out. And so I. I think this is interesting, Catherine, because I was just speaking with someone about it, and I'm actually writing a little bit about it now. I haven't quite landed on it.

Kenna Millea [00:36:40]:
I feel like I will totally get booed off stage for what I'm about, what I want to share. But. But the rough edit so far is something like. I think there is a temptation to become obsessed with full healing, full perfect wholeness and. And even holiness. And that I think when we. When we really look at the lives of the saints and we don't just take a snippet or a sound bite from them, but look at the things they say in the context. We see that their.

Kenna Millea [00:37:14]:
Their faith was so heroic and it's so inspiring because they lived with doubt or because they lived with suffering or because they lived with sin. Perpetual, habitual, you know, and. And so, yeah, I. I love that invitation you're making for us of like, yes, let's use our resources well. Let's engage the skills that we've learned. Like, let's not let our lives be small. Let's be in the driver's seat, you know, as much as possible. And then let's recognize that there's always going to be this peace that.

Kenna Millea [00:37:40]:
That is outside of our control or our knowledge or our, you know, manipulation to get it the way that I want it to be. And I'm really speaking primarily to myself right now because that is the reality of what it is to live on this side of the veil, as you pointed out.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:37:56]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when we're able to see that, if you even look at Eve, what did Eve want to know? Everything. Yeah, right. He wanted to, like, if I just want to know as much as God. I mean, it is like in that very core of that struggle of wanting to think. And again, my challenge always is. And this is a book I'm working on right now, so pray for me, because I really want it to come out. But it's this idea of so much of what we do is to avoid suffering if I do it right.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:38:31]:
Like, that is just especially for parents. So my book is more for parents, but it's this idea, if I Parent. Right. If I'm a good mom, my kids will avoid suffering.

Pat Millea [00:38:40]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:38:42]:
And Mary's son was bullied and crucified. She was the perfect mom, and she couldn't avoid suffering. He was perfect, and he didn't avoid suffering. So what if we as parents change that whole narrative and we're like, I am not trying to avoid suffering. I'm trying to surrender to the Lord's. You know, like, even with the story of my kid's car, I was thinking, oh, should we have not got it? Where do you pick the wrong ones? Did we not look close enough? And I'm like. And then I see my son come with his chest puffed out and his big smile, and I think, thank you, Lord, for breaking this part of his car. Because I can see that this suffering in the moment was so good for him.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:39:29]:
And if we could just hold on to that, I think we would start chipping away at anxiety. Because, again, if our animal brain is trying to keep us safe, it's trying to avoid suffering. And when we say, lord, I give, like, whatever suffering comes, I surrender it, and I know it is for my good and just really kind of working that space. Spiritual muscle.

Pat Millea [00:39:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. You've made a good distinction between the goodness of anxiety. I'm starting to be a little bit grateful for it. I'm working on it. By the end, I'll be there. But the two different kinds. These are two big buckets that are a little bit too broad.

Pat Millea [00:40:07]:
But the one bucket is, I am anxious and afraid because there is a valid threat to my physical, emotional, spiritual safety. So I need the bodily response to respond to that threat. The other bucket is, I'm having the physical reaction, but the threat is not valid, or at least I don't need to respond in the way that my body is preparing for. So in that case, in the case where the anxious response is healthy and valid, but it's not necessary right now. You've hinted at it already, but what are some of the ways to kind of start to calm those responses, to react and make choices, to bring myself back to a state where I'm able to think more with my human brain, not my animal brain.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:40:56]:
And so the first thing we have to realize is that we do have to speak to the animal brain in the way that it understands and through the senses. So, again, like, the first thing I. And I've said this before, but I'll say it again because I still think it's the most important, which is you have to get off the hamster wheel. If you're anxious, that you're anxious or you're bullying yourself or being anxious, nothing I'm going to tell you is going to work. You have to be able to say, you know, I even say, okay, Lord, I know I'm scared. I know this. You know, give yourself a prayer that helps you to, like, get off of the hamster wheel. And then we have to realize.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:41:33]:
So the first number one that I have is what everybody hates. And I know this. Everyone's going to roll their eyes. I get it. Is that we have to give ourselves time. Because what happens is we want this adrenaline and cortisol to be in our system and me to will it away. And now it's just gone. But it's like alcohol.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:41:53]:
You know, you can't drink a couple beers and then be like, well, I'm ready to go home. I'm gonna will myself sober.

Pat Millea [00:41:57]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:41:58]:
Like, your body actually has to work through the adrenaline and cortisol. And there's. There's been a lot of studies that show that for most people, their anxious response, which is the actual production of the hormones, is happening 10 to 15 minutes before you even feel it. So they do studies of, like, following your blood pressure and your heart rate and seeing. And so you're actually producing that adrenaline and cortisol a long time before you've actually feeling the results of it. And so one of the things that I'll say is, you know, you need to take deep breaths. And I always tease, because people, this is their deep breath. I don't feel better.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:42:35]:
They feel better at all.

Pat Millea [00:42:36]:
It's like, you're in our house, Catherine.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:42:41]:
So first of all, one, those aren't deep breaths.

Pat Millea [00:42:45]:
Those are fast breaths.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:42:47]:
They are fast, and they only exacerbate the problem. But that's what they do. Like, I did it. I did it. It's not better, right? So we do need to take those deep breaths that, like, where we hold it for a couple of seconds and we breathe so deeply that our heart, that our lungs fill up. And why those are so important is because that's a sign that we have control over to tell our animal brain that we're okay. Because if we're taking deep breaths, then we're in control. And so when we take those deep breaths, if you did it right now, you'd actually feel your heart rate slow down.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:43:18]:
It's amazing to see if you, you know, just an experiment with your kids, you know, give them a pulse ox and let them see how much they can control their heart rate through Their breathing. So that is assigned to the animal brain that we are okay and that we're safe. And so taking deep breaths. But again, you take five deep breaths, you still need time for the body to process. So what you're doing is instead of exacerbating the problem, we're going to slowly decrease the feelings of anxiety. So again, I think deep breathing is important. Then we have so deep breathing time. And then another one that I just think is really important is grounding.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:44:00]:
And why we talk about grounding is that anxiety lives somewhere in the future or somewhere in the past. It's not concrete, it's not here. So what we want to do is we want our animal brain to go to a place that it's like right here. I am safe. So what does my coffee taste like? What is the coldness of the computer? You know, can I see the light? Can I? You know, what do I smell? And so the more that we inundate that animal brain with different senses, the more it starts to say, okay, I'm safe. And we can even do this sometimes with memories, because our memories are actually done through our senses. So I gave the example of an apple pie. If I said, think of an apple pie, right now you can almost taste apple pie because your memory is through your senses, right? You can smell it, you can feel the crunch of the apples.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:44:51]:
And hopefully you have crunchy topping and not double crust, because we all know that's better. But, like, when we're able to really start to inundate our senses, then we can start helping the animal brain realize that it is safe and to calm itself. And I'm sure you're going to go here, but just in case you weren't, I'm going to like, tie something in that I think will make you believe me. But you should read the book, because then the book will seal the deal.

Pat Millea [00:45:20]:
That's right.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:45:21]:
Is that proof that this is all true? Is that when the Lord made our Mass, when he made our sacraments, all of these things are considered. See, in the world we live in, and this is one of the reasons I'm so passionate about talking about anxiety as much as I can in every way, is that the devil is winning in the idea that if you want to deal with your mental health, you need to leave the church, right? Because Catholics, they don't have anything. You got to have this new person and this thing. And I am very passionate that we had it first. Because what is the Mass full of? You're standing up, you're sitting down, you're kneeling, you're smelling, you're singing, you're praying. It's like he knew that we needed a place to go where we would have our senses inundated with beauty. And him. Right.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:46:14]:
When we think about the rosary, it's meditative, it's repetitive. It's like Mary rocking you to sleep. It's all those things that we can talk about in the secular world that they're like, this is what helps with anxiety. And I just challenge in the book, like, look at how the Church already has it all.

Kenna Millea [00:46:36]:
Yeah. And, and I think too about how the Mass is such a place of peace and grounding and as you describe, maybe some of the physiological reasons, there's certainly supernatural and grace filled reasons for that. But even just the natural on the human level, how we are nurtured, how we are nourished, how we are given these signs that, that we are okay. Yeah. Through our senses. That's beautiful. So can, can you help us, Catherine, like, especially as parents, you know, a couple of our kids right now are demonstrating some separation anxiety, some anxiety related to school or to like conflict with peers. What are some of the things that we as parents, and maybe we just need you to say the same things you just said to us, but help us relate it to our kids.

Kenna Millea [00:47:27]:
But like help us connect the dots. Okay. I thought it was Tuesday when we started recording. So clearly my brain is not fired up. It's not Tuesday for those of you out there. But so how do we help our kids? How can we walk alongside them as they're figuring this out for themselves too?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:47:45]:
And I think the. If I was to give two simple goals is first is don't be afraid of them feeling anxious. Let them tell you why they're scared. Let them explain to you what's hard about it. Because when we have these anxious thoughts about am I safe or am I not, A lot of times we cognitively dismiss what's actually the scary part. Right, so example, I'm going to have a test and I'm anxious that I'm going to fail the test. And you're like, well, tests aren't going to kill you. They're not a bear.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:48:19]:
Right. But sometimes our brains are. Well, if I fail this test, then I fail school, then I don't go to college and I have no money and then I'm homeless and then I die.

Pat Millea [00:48:27]:
Yep.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:48:27]:
Right. And their brains do that like this. Right. It's not a slow process. It's immediately. They've already gone through the thought process. So I think that the worst thing that we can do is minimize it. Um, the worst.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:48:42]:
I always wanted to write a book, the 10 things you should never say to someone who has anxiety. And it's the thing that people say the most, which is, it's okay. It's gonna be okay.

Pat Millea [00:48:52]:
It's not a big deal.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:48:54]:
It's not a big deal.

Kenna Millea [00:48:55]:
Right.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:48:55]:
And then anxiety is like, let me tell you why it's a big deal. Let me tell you how it's not gonna be okay. Right. And so the first thing that we have to do is, like, just give them their humanity to acknowledge that they're, like, feeling this feeling and that there is a reality behind why they feel the way they do.

Kenna Millea [00:49:12]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:49:13]:
Then you can start saying, okay, well, you're safe here. And how are we going to work through that? Because, again, like, that's the new trend. I think there was a long time with anxiety, especially during COVID and I think we needed this. A little bit of, like, I'm anxious, and I just am.

Pat Millea [00:49:30]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:49:30]:
Like, it just is. And we just kind of stay there. And I think that just again, is that hamster wheel. It just tends to build. What we want to be able to do is say, okay, I acknowledge these feelings. What's going on? And then what are we going to do to work through them? Let's do the 90 10. What do we know about this test? What do we know about this teacher? A lot of times with my clients that are younger, I'll be like, let's actually do the. Figure out the grade.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:49:54]:
Like, what do you need to keep. And keep a B in this class or whatever you're wanting, or, you know, like, well, if I fail, my parents will hate me. And I'm like, okay, well, let's go there. Like, will they hate you? And they're like, like, when have they hated you in the past? Well, never.

Pat Millea [00:50:10]:
But this would be the thing.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:50:13]:
Right. But again, if we don't give them that little bit of time to talk it through, to kind of see it, then those truths in our mind are all real. But sometimes when we're able to kind of talk through it. And then again, I think it doesn't ever hurt to have some practices on deep breathing or grounding or, you know, giving them some of those tools. And what I tease with my. With my teenagers is that the tools I give you are all things you can do inside your head.

Pat Millea [00:50:40]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:50:40]:
Right.

Pat Millea [00:50:40]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:50:41]:
Because no one wants to be in the middle of the test and be like, excuse me, I'm breathing.

Pat Millea [00:50:45]:
Grounding, break Right.

Kenna Millea [00:50:47]:
Yeah.

Pat Millea [00:50:47]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:50:48]:
They want to do the things that, like, can be keeping quiet as they manage their anxiety wherever they are. And so really empowering them. And that would be the key, if I would challenge any parent, is that when we can empower someone to manage their anxiety, that is very successful. If we're trying to make it never happen, make it go away, that's trying to stop this spill of the dam with a band aid. It's not going to work.

Kenna Millea [00:51:14]:
Yeah, yeah.

Pat Millea [00:51:15]:
And it's not going to help our kids develop the skills that they'll need for the rest of their lives to respond to anxiety when it comes up. You know, like if I. If I try to protect my kid from everything scary or if I try to minimize the thing that they're experiencing, then they'll never need to learn the really good and healthy resilience when things get hard, you know? Oh, that's beautiful. Now. Okay. You have been wonderfully practical this entire time, but I still want to ask, you know, we like to wrap up with some kind of a challenge by choice, some kind of a practical thing that somebody could try to kind of make this real in their own life. Feel free to restate something that you said before or bring up something revolutionary and brand new. But what's one challenge by choice that you might put to our listeners here today?

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:52:02]:
Okay, so on my website, I sell this little sticker, and it's a sticker that I wish every person bought. And my challenge is the sticker. Okay, so in really big writing, on the top of the sticker, it says, don't be a bully. Everyone agrees with that international. No one. No one says we should be bullies. Right?

Pat Millea [00:52:21]:
Right.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:52:22]:
But then in really small writing where you have to look a little harder and read a little closer, it says to yourself. Because the reality is, is we say things to ourselves that we would never say to someone else.

Pat Millea [00:52:39]:
Yeah.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:52:40]:
So as your list, as your listeners are listening to this podcast today, and there's probably parts that they're resonating with, and there are parts that aren't, and they're just, you know, and you're like, what am I going to do? I want them to challenge themselves to speak to themselves like a friend who came to them and said, hey, man, hey. I just heard this podcast, and I think I'm anxious and I don't know what to do. What would you say to them? Would you say, gosh, you're weak. Pray more. Figure it out. Don't be a loser. Or would you be like, I'm so sorry you're suffering. How can I help? Like, I'm so proud of you for telling me.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:53:14]:
Thank you. Thank you for trusting me with this information. Like what can I do to support you? And I just feel that if we could change that one narrative for ourselves, for our kids, for the people around us, if we always asked ourselves before we self talked, what would I say to a friend who said. Who came to me with the exact same thing I'm dealing with. I think our self talk would be much more kind, loving and productive.

Kenna Millea [00:53:40]:
No, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for that. And again, we will link up all these things on the show. Notes, notes. So whether it's the, the sticker, whether it's Catherine's book or the workbook that goes along with the book, like all of that other podcasts that she's appeared on, those will all be linked up. So why don't I close us in prayer and we can be on our way today, guys. All right. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:54:05]:
Amen.

Pat Millea [00:54:05]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:54:08]:
Come, Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus, we know that you entered into our human experience that we might have the fullness of life. And we know that this earthly pilgrimage is just the beginning, that we need your grace. Because we will not know perfection. We will not know total freedom from suffering and pain in this life. And we can know joy, we can know peace. We can no hope. By staying close to you, Lord, we pray for those voices within us that are not tender and kind and gentle and merciful like you are to us.

Kenna Millea [00:54:55]:
And. And we invite you in to help transform that voice that maybe wants to be critical, that maybe wants to be harsh and ask you to teach us how to be self compassionate.

Kenna Millea [00:55:09]:
How to see ourselves as you see us and to speak to ourselves as you speak to us. We place ourselves under the protection of Our Lady and St. Joseph and we pray this prayer in your holy name, Lord Jesus. Amen.

Pat Millea [00:55:27]:
Amen.

Kenna Millea [00:55:27]:
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:55:30]:
Amen.

Pat Millea [00:55:30]:
Amen. Catherine DiNuzzo, what a gift. Thanks so much for being with us. Where can folks keep up with you and with all the good things that you're.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:55:40]:
They can go to sacred heart mental wellness.com again that sacred heart mental wellness.com and there you can get the book the Catholic Guide Through Anxiety. Tomorrow you'll be able to get the Spanish version of the book, which is really exciting. There also is a companion book on the site that is just really interesting. And it's the reality is that a lot of counselors are hard to get into today. And there's not a lot of counselors, Catholic counselors. So I created a companion book that would be as if we were walking through it together. What would I want my clients to do as we walked through the book together? So that's on there. I'm a dyslexic.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:56:20]:
It's in the book. I explained kind of how the Lord asked me to write one even though I'm dyslexic. And so I had to create videos that have information of the book there for those who don't want to read. So there also is some videos on awesome. The Biology of Anxiety, Understanding what Mental wellness is. There's also a free mental wellness assessment. Where are you on this journey of mental wellness and what areas can we work on? So that's a free assessment. And then lastly, 2026, I've really put on my heart to be a year of speaking and being on podcasts, and I just feel the world needs help with this area.

Catherine DiNuzzo [00:56:59]:
And so there is also a place where you can book me to speak at a women's conference, retreats. I've done eucharistic congresses, various things around and just really trying to get out the message and empowering people to manage their own anxiety through the help of the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Pat Millea [00:57:17]:
Beautiful. Oh, that's so exciting. Thanks so much for sharing all that and we're really excited to help kick off your 2026 year of speaking. So thanks so much for joining us. We'll be praying for you, for your ministry, for your family, and for all the good that you do. If you were listening, feel free to check out those links to get to Catherine's resources. And as always, you can check out more on our website as well. This whole life podcast.com you can follow along on Instagram at this Whole Life Podcast and you can let us know your own story of anxiety, what's worked well for you.

Pat Millea [00:57:47]:
And please feel free to share this with a friend, especially if there's anybody who has intimated to you that this is a struggle in their lives. There's just so much valuable, real, treasured wisdom here to help somebody on their journey. So on behalf of my beautiful bride, Catherine DiNuzzo, thanks so much for listening and we will see you next time on This Whole Life.

Kenna Millea [00:58:06]:
God bless you.

Pat Millea [00:58:13]:
This Whole Life is a production of the Martin Center for Integration. Visit us online at thiswholelifepodcast.com. My Asian bride used to be used to be?

Kenna Millea [00:58:35]:
No, never, never.

Pat Millea [00:58:36]:
You were never fluent in Italian?

Kenna Millea [00:58:37]:
No, no, no. When you study abroad in Italy, you lose Italian.

Pat Millea [00:58:40]:
Actually, she used to attempt it.