An Agency Story
An Agency Story
Roller Derby, Donuts, and Doing Good - Upswept Creative
Company: Upswept Creative
Guests: Sarah Giffrow
Year Started: 2011
Employees: 1-10
What if staying un-niched was your more niche than you think? In this episode, Sarah Giffrow of Upswept Creative shares why she chose variety over specialization, and how it’s helped her build a values-driven agency that aligns with who she is. From helping mission-focused clients to overcoming the challenge of marketing her own business, Sarah offers honest insights agency owners can relate to.
Key Takeaways
- How there are many forms to niching, including just being your authentic self
- How to align your marketing voice with your values (without turning off ideal clients)
- A practical way to carve out time for your agency’s own brand work
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where we share real stories of marketing agency owners from around the world. From the excitement of starting up the first big sale, passion, doubt, fear, freedom, and the emotional rollercoaster of growth, hear it all on An Agency Story podcast. An Agency Story podcast is hosted by Russel Dubree, successful agency owner with an eight figure exit turned business coach. Enjoy the next agency story.
Russel:Ever feel like your agency is trying to help everyone but struggling to help itself? Welcome to an agency story podcast. I'm your host Russell. In this episode, we explore what happens when you lead with heart, serve with boundaries, and still struggle to find time for your own voice. I'm joined by Sarah Giffrow, founder of Upswept Creative, a Portland based agency that's just as passionate about social equity as they are about web design and digital storytelling. From building websites in notepad to becoming a voice for social impact and inclusivity in marketing, Sarah's story is as rich as it is real. We dive into the unique tension many agency owners face doing great work for others while neglecting their own brand. Along the way, Sarah shares how she transformed a layoff into a launchpad, why there's more to her niche than she gives herself credit for, and what it means to put wealth in the hands of compassionate people. Enjoy the story. Welcome to the show everyone. I have Sarah Giffrow with Upswept Creative with us here today. Thank you so much show on the show today, Sarah.
Sarah:Thank you for having me.
Russel:Glad to have you. It took us some rescheduling a few times to get here, kids and life and, some things along those lines, but we're here.
Sarah:We made it.
Russel:We made it. All is well that ends well. If you don't mind, kick us off here and tell us what Upswept does and who you do it for?
Sarah:We are focused on websites, social media and email marketing. We tend to work with service-based businesses, usually on the like small to medium side, and also non-profits. There always seem to be a couple of those in the mix. Those are the main categories. We aren't like super niched out and that's that's on purpose.
Russel:I wanna go back in time a little bit and understand how you got to where you're at today. But, what is the purpose behind, uh, intentionally not niching down?
Sarah:I think something that's always appealed to me, uh, in this work is, is having, having unique problems to solve. I've never really wanted the work to feel like rote or repetitive. I want it to feel like a new journey every time, because ultimately, every client's got their own struggles that they're, that they're going through. I like being able to dig into, why they do what they do and what the roadblocks are, and figuring out, okay, how, how can I use my skillset to make their lives easier and make these goals more achievable?
Russel:Obviously a lot of the market and talk today is moving them more, more the direction of more focused positioning, oftentimes in terms of this particular industry. But I help a lot of folks do that and I always just say, look, there's many ways we can go about this thing. Some routes make it easier, but some routes really just need to touch our creative soul or our passions and things like that. There's no one way to go about this and if it works for you and is, is leading in the direction you want to go, then rock on and do it. It sounds like you've been able to do that. Um, Let's see. Let's go back and find out what young Sarah, well, how, how she came about in the world. What were her goals, hopes and dreams? What does she wanna do with her life?
Sarah:I think the answer to that question changed so many times when, uh, when I was, uh, when I was growing up and going through school and college and all of that. Initially in my career I was all websites all the time. That was my gateway drug to, to like just the whole realm.
Russel:I love that terminology. Gateway drug. I built websites as a gateway drug.
Sarah:yeah. You know, I mean, I was like staying up and staying up late in college and like, yeah, just hand coding HTML in like notepad on a PC that I built myself. It was very old school. Um, I got into design through that and that's how I ended up coming around to getting a degree in design, which, uh, which yeah, after changing my major a few times. I worked in websites for an educational software company and then an education focused non-profit. So, very much in the education space, but also in the nonprofit space. It was kind of cool to have, one to have roots in that non in the nonprofit space and get a look at some of the challenges that those organizations go through, particularly with funding. But then also to be on the design side in, in a software company. I'd always been technically minded. I think earlier in my career I was a little resistant to being a developer, but I've embraced that over time. I, I like to say I'm an accidental marketer these days because the further you get into websites, the, the more you gotta understand the, the marketing aspect of it.
Russel:Isn't that the truth?
Sarah:It's such an important piece to making it successful.
Russel:So you went to a gateway drug as being the web tech side, and then it sounds like you're, I don't know what's next after gateway drug? Your hardcore drug became designed, but it sounds like you really have that left brain, right brain thing going on as you've developed and honed your skillset.
Sarah:Very much. I went the left brain direction for a short while. Had a little photography side hustle, but then, and that connected me with, a lot of like local makers and yeah, more in the small business realm. And yeah, A lot of times I would, I would look those folks up and look up their websites and just be like, oh my gosh, like, what they just showed me is not reflected at all in this online space?
Russel:You can't put my photos on your crappy website is what I'm hearing you're saying under your breath here. But what a great intro.
Sarah:I think that was really what, what made me want to go out on my own and, and do my own thing. I just really wanted to be able to use my skills to help the people who were doing really incredible things, whether it's through making or, or healing or, social justice work. They're just incredible skill sets that I, I don't have, but then I have skills that, that can support what they do. I just wanna solve problems for people.
Russel:That's all I want to do. That's your real hardcore drug is solving problems for people. I love that reference. I'm curious, just kind of get an understanding of your, where your risk tolerance falls, right? Clearly you started, sounds like, go down an entrepreneurial path with with photography and then, uh, it seems like the writing's on the wall and how that really parlayed into your official agency business. Was that like a side hustle and then eventually you're making enough to make that leap? Or did you just say one day I'm, I'm done with this corporate mess and I'm just gonna start doing my own things, and then that beget your evolution path that you already shared?
Sarah:I think I was doing like the occasional project, like on the side in a really small way. There were some funding cuts, um, at the nonprofit as they often are, um, and so and so, yeah, I got laid off.
Russel:So goes the DOW, so goes the nonprofit.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. I got laid off and one of the nice things about Oregon is that, um, when you're receiving unemployment benefits, they have, um, they have like a small business assistance program. Rather than being like, I applied for these jobs this week, you can say, okay, I did these things to develop my own business. That was actually a really helpful tool is that I was able to just put all my energy towards setting up my business.
Russel:Okay. I'm curious'cause I, I don't know that I've heard of a program specifically like this. Is it designed just to, hey, spend your time doing this so you can still get unemployment as long as you're working on, working on a business? Or are they actually giving you other tools, guidance and, and I don't know if even funding or something like that to, to move in that direction?
Sarah:It's basically, you know, you, you work on your business instead of, applying to other jobs to, to receive your unemployment benefits. They at least an email with some other resources like Score and, and a lot of those other small business resource center type of things.
Russel:All right. I'm curious. I know around here they have the, the small business development center. I think it's, it's kind of a function of SBA, I don't know if it's tied to any unemployment benefits, but I'm, I'm just curious how those programs work for folks and, do what they're intended to do. I'm looking for a case study, I guess maybe in that realm, but sounds like at least a partial one in terms of the program itself and, and what it helps your business do.
Sarah:I was pretty committed to my vision of what I wanted to do. Even if that vision has changed, uh, pretty dramatically over the years.
Russel:As they're wont to do.
Sarah:Oh yeah. It worked out. It was good to have the space to, to, yeah, to really think through all of, all those early pieces. Instead of, you know, trying to like cram it in after dinner on a weeknight.
Russel:Focus is key. How'd you come up with the name? Was it the same name as from the get go or what? I love a good naming story.
Sarah:It was just me when I started, so I was just like, Sarah Giffrow Creative, whatever, and didn't, didn't overthink that piece. Then I was reminded of the facts that people very frequently spell or pronounce my last name wrong.
Russel:I live this world too. I know what you're feeling.
Sarah:That was one factor, um, in terms of coming up with a name. And then also I, I came around to the idea that, you know, I actually, I actually would like to build out a team. Some people love the solopreneur life, but I like, I like having some collaborators, so I wanted to give it a name. I want it to be bigger than just myself. Upswept came out of the idea of just being really caught up in the excitement of what you're doing and what we're building together. That's pretty, pretty simple but, but I liked that, I liked that feeling.
Russel:Love a good on point naming story as well. Sometimes you just, you just never know what, how a name came up. What year are we talking here? What timeframe are we in?
Sarah:I started on my own in 2011, so it was a good while ago.
Russel:Got some notches under the belt and some experience there. You mentioned earlier just that there was a, you know, your vision and just what you trying to achieve has changed a lot. How do you just sum up what, what that, where you started to where you're at today and, and the key turning points in there?
Sarah:Where I started, I mean part of, it was partly fueled by the facts that, you know. Once the unemployment benefit, the small business assistance thing ran out, um, then, you know, I would have to like generate income. I was definitely in that space of can probably do it. If I don't know how to do it yet, I can probably figure it out. I feel like that's just one of my core beliefs. I'm always like, oh, well, I don't know how, I could probably figure it out. It was very just I will take the work that, that I, that pays, that I'm capable of doing. It was all over the place. There are websites. I still took photos for a while. I designed logos, flyers. it was just kind of all over the map. You over time when you like are just kind of taking whatever comes through the door, you sort of figure out like what you really want to be doing. There are just certain, certain gigs you like a little better than others. The niching down for me was not so much about like a particular industry as, as it was like, okay, I don't want to be designing literally everything in the world. I just wanna bring it down to websites, basically bring it back to my roots.
Russel:Which, I mean, is a form of niche, right? To your point, it's a form of niching. I don't even know if there's stereotypical niching or whatever, but it's, it's starting to say no to certain things, so you can say yes to other things. I've always asked myself, I'm curious, your, your thought on this is, does everyone just need to go through that experience? Because so many agencies do it, or they start out in their early years and they're doing everything for everybody and they eventually whittle that down some more than others. I always just ask myself is that just a natural order of things? Just so we can figure out what's best or should we try to start out at the gate with a lot more focus?
Sarah:I think it would probably be, easier at least emotionally to have a really clear picture of what your niche is gonna be and what specifically you're going to do. But yeah, I do feel like having a certain amount of experience to even determine what that is, is, is sort of necessary. Sometimes the, the gig that sounds really cool on the outside, you get into it and you just think like, oh my God, this is a nightmare for, you know, one razor or another. Maybe it's just pushing your boundaries in a way that you don't like, or, or maybe just managing particular types of clients. I used to do When I was in photography, I would do events and, and I pulled out of that because,'cause yeah, it was just such an incredible drain of energy. I would just get home and I would just wanna lay down for like a week.
Russel:That's a good sign way to listen to that signal that that may be, not be your, your forte.
Sarah:Some of those are definitely something that like sounded really fun on the outside, but then, but then, yeah, like once I'd done it, oh, maybe, maybe this is not for me.
Russel:We gotta try all the foods on the buffet. I mean, this is, I don't know if you're a big buffet eater or, this is how I approach a buffet. I try everything and then I go in for what I really, really want. Maybe that's what an agency business journey has to be, is you gotta dabble in all the things and then just like a buffet, you get the, you end up with the food, you know, you like the best.
Sarah:I'm definitely a sampler too. That's, uh, how I end up overeating every Thanksgiving because we do potluck with friends and, you know, everybody brings their A game and I'm just like, I wanna try everything, but I'm already so full.
Russel:It's tough and, but it seems part and parcel. so I, I think I'm gonna be in camp, um, you gotta, you gotta experiment and see what fits best for your vision and just explore. I can already tell, a key theme to how you approach the world is helping and giving back. Was that something you were born with? Is that a, been a learned experience for you? Why is that so important to you and your approach in business?
Sarah:I think that, you know, just that, that impulse to help was, I feel like that's always been there to some extent. Taking care of folks, sometimes to my own detriment. Although we've, I've also gotten better about that as I've gotten older. It's really dovetailed nicely with a lot of the social justice type of things that I've come to care more about. You know, as I've as I've just learned more about how the world works and built awareness about different issues. I'm involved with the, with roller derby, um, as, which is one community which is, very welcoming generally of, um, queer and trans folks.
Russel:Do you roller derby also or you just, or you just do work with them?
Sarah:I skated for, um, close to 10 years. And now I'm a referee.
Russel:Okay. That stuff looks brutal. I'm not gonna lie. I've had my share of physical contact sports, but I don't know that I'm cut out for, so especially now I'm not cut out for, roller derby. Sorry for the segue, but that's a very fascinating, uh, sport to participate in. Do you have all your arms and limbs?
Sarah:Yep, yep. I managed to get through it without, uh, without any broken bones. I've actually never broken a bone.
Russel:Not even a broken bone. You must have been the bone, bone breaker. You must have been the one.
Sarah:I hope not. Nobody likes seeing that happen.
Russel:I don't know how not everybody doesn't break a, I mean, I haven't seen it in a while, I guess, but I don't know how every game that there's not 10 bones broken. Anyway, sorry, I, I got you off track. You were explaining all the good things you were doing in the world and I had to talk about being roller derbies.
Sarah:I'm used to that. I'm connected with, um, with the queer community. I'm involved with the, with, um, Oregon Pride of Business, which is, uh, which is, yeah, very LGBTQ plus focused small business organization. I'm also a woman in a tech adjacent industry. Cause I'm in doing websites, so I'm very aware of the issues there. I'm half Taiwanese, so a person of color. There are a lot of these types of issues that I, that are, that, hit me close to home. Hit me or the people I care about close to home.
Russel:That's great. I think we had a similar approach in our business. Look, we, we're all techer, techies and nerdy nerds and all that stuff, and you know, we can't, we're not doctors, we can't cure cancer,. But when we're working on a hospital or just some do good type organization, we have such power or empowerment, I guess you could say to further great causes in the world. So not to take that lightly, and if we can marry business and making the world a better place, then I, I feel like that's, that's winning in a nutshell.
Sarah:I always appreciate just every opportunity we get to do that. Particularly with the nonprofit work. If I can like help someone boost the signal for a clean water issue. The Columbia River is huge in our region. Just such a resource in so many ways. I've talked to some organizations who, they've literally like come in and they're, um, and yeah, their, their developments, uh, their development consultant will come in to a meeting with us and they'll be like saying, yeah, so this organization, we're they, we were talking with them about, promoting their research. And they're like, why don't we do some radio ads? He was like, told them like, I don't think that's the space you wanna be in anymore. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of, There's a lot of folks who are just doing really excellent, important work who just don't know how to get the word out at all, or, or aren't able to get the right information out to the right people. And that's what I do basically.
Russel:1972 called, uh, wants its radio ads back. Again, points to how much we have to be the experts in these relationships, and a lot of times I talk about it in, you know, in 2025, marketing is such a complicated world, far more complicated than it was even 10 years ago, but go back 20, 25 years ago. It's night and day. Every day that goes by, it seems like we have to be more and more of the experts that guide our clients through. it Seems like you've taken that approach, not, not only just for the clients themselves, but in for great causes.
Sarah:And I think particularly with, with a lot of the being in the social media space, um, as of recent has been, uh, pretty interesting air quotes. Just with a lot of the, the platform changes at Meta the, and the TikTok ban and yeah, people are scrambling and they don't know what to do and are I, or just fully quitting platforms. I've been doing my best to be a resource in that regard and think, okay, maybe before you delete your account, if you're just fully done with this platform, let's go through some steps so you don't just abandon your whole audience there. Maybe let's take some of those folks with you.
Russel:Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That makes total sense. And something that it stuck out from, from a previous conversation that, that stuck with me is it sounds like this is kind of all, underneath what's, uh, I think it's your overarching goal, but you can share otherwise of just putting wealth in the hands of compassionate people. If I were to just ask you, what's your fundamental
Sarah:That's very much a thought that's in my mind, particularly in more recent years. I've kind of gotten a bit more radicalized. It's actually a goal of mine for this year to, to use our platform our platform on social and, and, uh, in the email space. Share some of the more like, more radical ideas, uh, that, that we really care about, the issues that we really care about, which. I don't feel like we've ever been super shy about it, but it feels like a time to be, to be louder about it. I feel like what I've always enjoyed, working with service-based clients too, is that there's just, there's always just that undercurrent of, of, that they want to use what they know, that they want to use their skillset to make someone else's life better. I feel like that's the through line of everything where, maybe a nonprofit is doing that on a larger scale, but maybe, a therapist or, um, or a, um, A DEI consultants, you know, they'll be doing that on like a smaller scale with like a smaller team or even one to one. I think I'm just trying to help people who wanna help other people.
Russel:Even that is a form of positioning, putting your, putting a brand out there and thoughts and ideas and just generally speaking, as long as they're in the direction of helping people, is a, is a great thing. And again, A form of positioning that is a way other businesses out there can think about positioning. Not always, just in the kind of binary sense of a industry, not industry focus or a very specific service focus or not. There are other ways to go about it, which, again, seems kind of part and parcel to your journey.
Sarah:And I think it is a way too of just like calling in the kind of projects that you really want to be working on and the people that you wanna be working with. There have been times when I've, you know, I think I've been approached about like marketing, like a weight loss product or something like that. And, and yeah, my, I'm more of a body positive human and I'm not into the, like, toxic diet culture, and so, you know, from an ethical standpoint, I, I did not want that gig. I think something that, It's something that I recommends to, to basically everyone I work with or where know, if you feel strongly about something, you, you don't necessarily need to hide that or be shy about it, particularly as a small business owner. Part of what you're selling is you know who you are and, and your why. I feel like if it matters enough to you, it's, maybe it's worth putting out there.
Russel:I think in 2025, going back to that complicated world, you've got to put the signals out there to the folks that you want to align with and work with, because it's hard to find otherwise. It's the lighthouse to ultimately find the right types of projects. That's a good segue. Something that I think a lot of agencies run into is taking the time to focus on their own voice, to focus on their own, call it marketing or just putting those ideas out there. I hear it often in terms of the painter's house is never painted, cobbler's kid has no shoes, all those wonderful analogies. Where do you feel like Upswept fits into that spectrum of really, really great about focusing on yourself and then the opposite of?
Sarah:It's definitely felt, definitely felt sort of cyclical for me. I've had my good periods and, and my not so good periods. It was definitely difficult to get into that mindset, uh, uh, early on. Part of my working theory about why it is so hard to do these things for yourself is that, I feel oftentimes when I'm working with a client, I'm hearing what they have to say about their work and why they do it. I'm able to look at that and see the things that are special about it that, maybe they, they never even thought about before. I'm able to actually, look at their blind spot and point at it and be like, hey, we could work with this. But I can't see my own blind spots'cause it's my blind spots so that I don't have the benefit of outside perspective working for me. It's also just a matter of time. And, and I think every entrepreneur like runs into that where they, you know, there are those things that you know you should do for your business and this whole struggle of like, working in your business versus, versus working on it. There's a point where you do have to just like set some time aside, block, block it out in your calendar. I actually did a really lovely, uh, quarterly planning party with, uh, with Devin Lee, a couple times and yeah, and the whole thing was just three hours at the end of the prior quarter where you would just, yeah, you'd map out these are the things I wanna work on. And then you would actually put it in your planning tool, put it in your calendar. You've got all of these layers of accountability. That's kind of what you're looking at doing is you gotta carve out the space for it. You can't just be throwing all of your energy at your clients all the time.
Russel:I mean in, in your particular case, curiosity,'cause I, I think I hear very similar kind of obstacles and, and kinda what you shared of blind spots or maybe just not knowing exactly where to put that time, or time itself. What is your bigger challenge, do you think, in that?
Sarah:I was actually talking about this in a, in one of, a Slack group I'm in the other day. Sometimes I will have an idea and I just need it to be out there immediately. I'll like write up a whole email or like set up a whole, um, whole series of social media posts or something, and I'll be like, all right, we're, we're putting this out tomorrow morning. I know it probably drives my team crazy sometimes because as you know, ideally, you know, I would be able to do things in a more planned out way so that we aren't having to adjust at the last minute. I feel like I tend to get inspired, like just, just late enough where it's really unreasonable to like do it in that timeframe, but I'm like, I just, I gotta do it. I gotta do it. Stepping back from that and, and doing something that's more mapped out and planned for myself, I think is a, is a challenge that I bump up against.
Russel:That's funny. I think I had someone that was talking about that similar in a previous episode. They tried to put themselves like, hey, when I get hit with the idea, just, just take action, right? Otherwise it'll either forget it or it'll just go to the back burner. There is some value in that, but maybe if we can just have a floor of consistency, uh, as well. One of the things I feel like I see a lot is that we don't really give that consistency or a particular effort enough time, and then if we start to not feel like things are working or we don't really see the lineup to being successful, then it's easy to dump back in kind of the default of what it sounds like you shared of client work. I know I'm getting paid fair there. I know there's a good outcome there. So let's, Let's go do that instead because I started down this path over here and it just, just didn't seem to produce a lot. I feel like, if we go back to the cobbler's kid example, if the cobbler was certain that their shoes were very valuable, that I think they would give them to their kid first. Or they would make the time to make sure to make shoes for their kid. But maybe that's the gap sometimes is we're not exactly, goes back to maybe the blind spot, we're not sure what to work on most to even be motivated to carve out the time to focus on it. Um, but I, I was just curious if does, how does that, does that apply to your own journey? You can push back and say, well, no, I don't think that's it for me.
Sarah:Yeah. Focus is definitely, I think that's a pretty common struggle too. It certainly is for me. I'm an ADHD human, so, which I think, you know, probably contributed to the whole, yeah, sure. I will do all of the work that you will throw at me like earlier in my career. My brain really likes to shift gears, so knowing what to focus on and, and also what my brain is willing to focus on in a given moment. Those two things can be a pretty snarly issue.
Russel:I heard a great term with a client the other day that they called Spicy Brain, that they had, they categorized themselves. I thought that was a pretty funny, funny term. But yeah, we have to, we have to work within the confines of talents and abilities and, and natural disposition. I think a lot of times when I talk with folks, the first place to start is there's probably a certain amount of things that are on your list that you shouldn't be doing, so that it's really, can we, can we get rid of some of that scar tissue buildup in terms of how your time's being spent so we, we can give some space to some of these other things. Then it's the hard work of, all right. Take the time to come up with a good strategy that we, you can get behind, versus just maybe going after a specific task or just a few things to do that may or may not bear fruit. And then that kind of leads the fall off effect. But, but, uh, thank you for being so open about your, your journey about painting your own house.
Sarah:Thank you.
Russel:To wrap things up, what does, what does the future hold? What's your 10 year plan, if this was a job interview?
Sarah:Definitely, I mean, keep doing what we're doing. Grow the team out a bit more. We're looking at, ways to, uh, maybe shift more away from individual services and so that we can look more holistically at the different components of their online marketing. What's happening on their website, what's happening on their social, what's happening with their email, because that's coming back to the what to even focus on thing. You can throw all the money you want at your social media, but if people are getting to your website and being like what do I even do? How do I buy a thing from you? All that energy you're dumping into social media isn't really solving the problem. I think finding new ways to, to look for those, those little holes and those unseen issues that they might not, uh, that they might not be aware of. That's where my brain is for the next while.
Russel:It sounds like a worthwhile cause and, and to the point in 2025, it's hard to have a one trick pony marketing strategy. Even if we have a specialized service, we have to think about the entire ecosystem that's involved in what it takes to make a client successful in their marketing. Wonderful perspective. Thank you so much for taking the time to share that. Last big question for you, Sarah. Are entrepreneurs born or are they made?
Sarah:I don't think it was something I saw myself doing until I started doing it. I think it was that photography side hustle. where, you know, like I was just taking photos as for fun, um, and then sort of looking around at like, you know, other local photographers work and I can take pictures as good as that. Why don't I just, you know, see if people will pay me for it? But it was a why not sort of thing. Being willing to take that chance on yourself, I think is all you really, all you really need. And then, yeah, just the tenacity to navigate the journey that comes after it.
Russel:You gotta be born to jump outta the plane, but then you gotta be made to, to get to the ground safely. Or sometimes you gotta get pushed outta the plane. That's another way that I guess you don't have to be born. You can get pushed outta the airplane. If people wanna know more about Upswept Creative and your journey, where can they go?
Sarah:We're at upsweptcreative.com. At least for the moment, we're still on Facebook and Instagram. We're starting to dip our toe into Bluesky. We're on LinkedIn. We've got a weekly email series called Social Media Snack Break where we dispense little snack sized, bits of info tactics about social media for folks who are running small businesses and feeling overwhelmed about it. That comes out every Tuesday.
Russel:See that's a form of doing your own marketing. Give yourself more credit than, where credits due. You're painting your house. Maybe not all the rooms, but you're painting your house. Wonderful journey. Appreciate you taking the time to share that from gateway drugs to really just your focus on making the world a better place. Can't go wrong with that. Thank you so much for for sharing that all with us today.
Sarah:Thank you so much for, for listening.
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Sarah:It's become less of a thing, um, since COVID, but pre COVID, we would do, we would have our, uh, weekly team meetings and, and there was a period of a good I think it was a good year or so where where we did the tour to Donut, as we called it. There are a lot of good donut places here in Portland, and we're all very emotionally invested in snacks, so we would, we tried different donut places for, every couple meetings.
Russel:Every week you just went to a, a new donut shop for your meeting?
Sarah:Yeah. Or, you know, I'd just go, go pick up like a half dozen and, and we'd all cut out little pieces and, and have a little sampling taste testing.
Russel:I love this. I definitely am a big fan of remote work, but there are little nuggets like you know, were fun. I think we did something similar. We did new food Friday. We had to go to a restaurant that nobody, most people, I guess you could say, hadn't been to before. Just as a little fun way to just break, break some monotony.
Sarah:Trying new food is, uh, always something I'm up to do.
Russel:And probably better if it's a donut.
Sarah:I definitely can't complain about that.