An Agency Story
First hand interviews of creative, digital, advertising, and marketing agency owners that have walked the talk of running an agency business. These are riveting stories of the thrill of starting up, hardships faced, and the keys to a successful business from agency owners around the world.
An Agency Story
A Month in Manhattan - White Canvas & Loop3
Company: White Canvas & Loop3
Guest: Nico Pisani
Year Started: 2015
Employees: 11-25
What happens when you pack a bag, buy a ticket, and bet everything on yourself?
In this episode, Nico Pisani, founder of White Canvas and Loop3, shares how one bold month in New York transformed his mindset, business, and approach to risk. From humble beginnings in Argentina to building two successful agencies, Nico’s story is a testament to action over perfection and the lessons that only failure and courage can teach.
Key Takeaways
- Why sometimes taking action without a plan is the fastest path to clarity and opportunity
- The hidden danger of growing too fast
- How learning through failure builds wisdom you’ll carry forever
- The importance of saying no to stay aligned with your bigger vision
Want a more clarity and control for your agency in 2026? An Agency Story has three coaching spots available for 2026. Let’s see if one of those spots is right for you. Visit AnAgencyStory.com and click “Let’s Talk.”
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where owners and experts share the real journey, the early struggles, the breakthrough moments, and everything in between. I'm your host Russel Dubree, former eight figure agency owner, turn Business coach. Sold my agency and now helps agency leaders create their ideal business. Every agency has a story, and this is your front row seat. This is an agency story. Welcome to the show today everyone. I have Nico Pisani with White Canvas and Loop3 with us here today. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Nico. Hey Russell, thanks for having me. I am excited to have a conversation. So I guess, if you don't mind, tell us what White Canvas and Loop three does and then we'll, we'll get to some stuff for sure.
Nico:So, uh, white Canvas and Loop three are two siblings agencies at White Canvas. We do. WordPress development for agencies, uh, top agencies in in the us. So basically what we do is we help them in times of work overload. They send us the Figma files and they can expect, uh, high-end quality WordPress custom theme, uh, delivered to them. And in loop three, we develop. Custom solutions software solutions for venture capitals, like huge venture capitals would need to make sense of their data and reach some information automate some processes, create custom tools. So for instance, uh, last week we created an integration with an LLM and a lot of databases for them to be able to speak with their data in natural language and not needing a data analytics for that.
Russel:Okay, well, we're gonna dig into, I mean, it's hard enough to run one agency now. You, you got two under your belt, but we're gonna find out about more about what that looks like here in a little bit. But, we'll start earlier in your journey and work to that. And you are from a very beautiful land from far, far away from me anyway. Tell us about young Nico. Where are you from? Let's
Nico:Sure. So, well, I'm from Argentina, Buenos Aires. Uh, so yeah, a bit southern, uh, from you guys. Uh, and, uh, young Nico was always an entrepreneur. I consider myself an entrepreneur about everything, so I was always. Curious about building businesses, doing stuff. So I started really young at in high school selling PlayStations too, in like the eBay equivalent here in Argentina, digging my first steps as an entrepreneur. There. It was not a really good business model. I think like only sold like three or four, PlayStation two, but for a 15 year olds old was good enough. So, uh, right after high school I had to start doing something and my dad said, alright, like, while you study, you come and work for me at my law firm. He has like a small practice around. Three employees. So, I mean, were you excited
Russel:about that? Like when Dad says with me, no, not at all. Like,
Nico:I didn't wanna do that, but I had to pay my bills, my own things. Like I, I was still living with him, so like the bills were not huge, but I still need some money to go out with my friends and do stuff. Fair. So I was there, I remember being there, sitting in the chair doing random things like, and looking at the clock. Watching the, the seconds ticking and hopefully like one, one time to go home. So I think like a year in or whatever he hired someone to create the website for the practice. And naturally I was the. Kind of, not project manager, but like basically trying to get all the information to give to the developer. It was like a freelance developer and sending over, I'm doing that stuff. And to be honest, the process was awful and the result was even worse. So at some point I say, Hey dad, like. I'll do this for you. And just to recap a bit, I was being nerdy in terms of, I always like to code. I did some games when I was at high school okay. Stuff. Okay, that makes more sense. So it was, yeah, I was walking. This was not uncharted territory
Russel:for you.
Nico:Yeah, no, I, I was always into computers, but I, I've never developed a website. I say how hard it could be. So I started digging around and discover there that I really enjoy that. So in that process. I said, alright, if this guy is making probably the same amount of money that I'm making working a month here, like I should definitely do the same. So. Right there after developing the site which it was decent. It was better than the freelancer developer. Like, looking back, it was probably not so good, but still the first shot. So, uh, what with that, I say all like, I, I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna go, full-time into this. I'm gonna learn as fast as I can this, because I really enjoy this. So I did that high quit. And, and start learning as fast as I could. How to develop websites and start pinging all my network and saying, Hey guys, I'm doing website. Like who wanna hire me? Uh, and at some point there was, uh, another guy from my high school who was doing design for websites and I told him, Hey, I'm doing websites I liked, like that part of things you are designing stuff. If you ever have a project, let me know. And he did have a project, so that was like my first. Paying project, which was not actually my dad. So probably that was like at 19 years old. Okay. So that's when I started like doing the freelance business.
Russel:Okay. So, okay. So you've basically been an entrepreneur since, well, since, since you graduated school.
Nico:Yeah. Yeah. And in the meantime I always had, uh, do you know love socks there, like the bean bags that you have? Oh, yes, yes, yes. Somewhere between the PlayStation two and the websites. I tried to create a copycat here, and I still have one like walkie we'd call it here in my office. So. I probably only sold two of those, like one to my dad and one to myself or whatever. Oh, that's funny. It was fun.
Russel:What was your inspiration like? Why that as a product? I mean that seems quite a departure, like you said, a tech guy and, and all that.
Nico:Uh, to be honest, as I was saying, like I consider myself an entrepreneur, so I got really excited about. New stuff. So I probably was watching YouTube or whatever. I saw these bean bags were huge and amazing and say like, well, that's something cool to do. I, we don't have this in Argentina, so I definitely should copy that. So I figured it out. I, I do it, but it was like super expensive to produce. They were big. It was like the audience was, yeah, it was hard to sell and I had no experience. I probably quit. Way too quickly. Probably if I would push a bit more, I would've been able to sell some. But, but yeah, like you, I was trying to start something, but then, you know, when things get a bit complicated, I was tend to quit. So, uh, those, the first startups were hard for me. Uh,
Russel:I'm sure you learned some good things from the beanbag, uh, yeah. Entrepreneur journey and so, yeah. All right. So you're doing the freelancer thing. And I mean, when would you say you went from freelancer to being an actual agency?
Nico:So I think I freelanced for around three years or so. I was doing. One side every other month or whatever was good enough for me to be able to to pay my bills. Uh, did you still live with your dad? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, in between. I went to live with my girlfriend at at least little remote town in cor, which is like, have you seen the cars movie? Uh, right here on, right here, Springs. So you can think about that. It was like these one main road. A lot of shops there. And I was there with, trying to sell websites and actually that was an in-between, between freelancing and agency. But it was like, I think something cool for me, which is like, I was there trying to sell websites. People there like, they don't need a website because it was like a super small town. So I say, what if I create a listing for these little town, like. So I spin up our WordPress pretty quickly and when I win my iPad, I can start knocking on doors and hey, say, Hey, I'm creating this listing. I can take a couple of pictures of your shop. We can put it online at the information and people will see you there and we'll call you. So I start charging like$50 a month or whatever to be there. And I got a lot of clients, so I bet it was right. If I go and sell, which I, it's hard to sell because you need to get out of your comfort zone. I can get things there. Okay, so there moving then, at some point I get back to Buenos Aires, uh, to a big city in Argentina, and I was, all right, let's try to get some clients. How come I stop being a freelance and build a, a bigger business for myself? And I had this amazing idea where. There was, Facebook was a thing back then. And they have these groups where I was like a designers group where I come in and my logic was, if I can find. Some designers to find work for me, then I can do the coding and then we can sell a couple of websites. So I can start an agency with every designer and then I can have some flow coming in, which was a terrible idea. But, um,
Russel:what you're saying, your, your idea of finding designers to be referral sources for you?
Nico:No, the idea was like, because I started saying, Hey, let's build an agency together. So literally I created. Five agencies in parallel at some point saying like, we had a name with the designers and whatever. Oh, so it was nuts. Um. Not a lot of work came from there. And someplace say like, I'm trying to sell myself as an agency, maybe that's not worth it. And what I should do is like, be more realistic. Like, I'm Nico, I'm a freelancer. I'm someone that you can rely to. I created a landing page, which was Nicolas designing, um, web designer on web developer. You can hire me. I'll never speak in tech language or whatever. So I had a website which had a compelling story, and then it's like, how do I get people to see, to watch the website? So I found a Udemy course about Google AdWords. So started learning about Google AdWords and with that. Basically run my first campaign and at the moment I think it was like 50 bucks a day or whatever, that for me was a lot of money. So I remember thinking to myself like, if this doesn't work for five days or so, like it's gonna hurt. But I. Click the play button and start praying and one hour after I hit the play button, people start calling me. So, wow. Yeah, I, I started getting a new business and the flow was getting bigger and bigger, and I think like within two weeks I say, Hey, I need to hire someone to help me. And that's when I decided, right, let's stop being a freelancer and create an agency.
Russel:That's fascinating. I mean that might, you know, I've done a ton of these interviews now and I cannot think of someone that really said their first book of clients came from running ads. I mean, existing agencies really struggle with that as a lead gen source. Like why do you think that was effective for you?
Nico:I think first there are a couple of things probably I think like the website that I had, like being a freelancer and not trying to oversell like right there, like I probably was like 2011 or something like that, or 2012. So not trying to oversell myself as a big agency, but being genuine about like, Hey, I'm this guy who it's techie who knows about websites and can do this for you. Was like a really compelling message. Also, I think it was like another time where you literally Google, I need a web designer or whatever, and then you appear first. People click on that and it work. Like I tried to replicate that afterwards a couple of times and it didn't work anymore for me. Literally kinda a lot more
Russel:crowded, I guess, too, these days than Yeah, it's crowded. It's more
Nico:expensive. Um, and yeah.
Russel:Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. And then, so that was White Canvas. Yeah. And I, I know a little bit about your journey and you've evolved and obviously you've evolved into another agency, but you've gone through the positioning journey and kind of whitting down what you were doing. When did that come about for White Canvas? What spurred you to better lock in on what you do and why you do it?
Nico:Just for context, when I first started White Canvas, I was 23 years. Didn't know what I was doing. I was just going with it and trying to like sell stuff to people. So people would call me and say, Hey, like White Canvas was born as a Marketing 360 agency, that we do everything. So they will call me and say, Hey, I need a logo. All right, no problem. I'll do it for you. And I had the designer, I need some social media manager. Alright, I can do that for you. And I, at some point I need a. Software, it was like a web application, super complicated managed talk, whatever. Yeah, we can handle that. And so I getting a lot of projects that are, were way outside my wheelhouse. And at some point I had like around eight employees different projects, but I didn't get the economics quite well. So the projects were not super profitable. And at that point, WordPress started to. Become like a pattern that it was repeating on the projects that were right. So I decided, all right, let's remove all the clutter. Let's try to focus on WordPress. Let's do these really well and try to make it profitable. Because like, to be honest, in those periods there were like. Long months where I didn't get a paycheck. Some, yeah, red numbers. They're on the balance sheet, so it was like they, they were not fun.
Russel:Yeah, I mean that sounds exactly like the same path that we did. I mean, we were web and I'm pretty sure, I'm actually pretty sure we sold one time somebody, one of our clients was having trouble with their internet. We went over to their office to help them troubleshoot their internet. But yeah, technologies we're all, you know, we're doing every call kinds of technologies, net and all the, you know, nuke and I can't even remember all the ones that were around back then. And then, yeah, we woke up one day and said. This is not gonna work. Yeah. We can't hire for this. We can't be profitable. Uh, clients are not happy. It's, um, we gotta whittle this thing down.
Nico:It's hard. I remember one time this guy calling me about, Hey, I need you to come and fix my printer. Right? It's like, not what I do. And like. For me, printers have their own soul. So that's where I'm gonna draw the line. Isn't that the truth?
Russel:That that was, that was your boundary. I don't do printers, but, uh, uh sure. I'll change your tire and I'm gonna guess that, right. One of the things and, you know, talk a lot about it folks, and you know, it's definitely becoming more pervasive now that gotta specialize in some way as an agency. Uh, but I have yet to talk to an agency that specialized and went back. So I imagine, um, I'm gonna guess that worked out well for you.
Nico:Yeah, uh, definitely it did. I think it was, uh, the right path and right now we are thinking about expanding a bit more. Outside only WordPress, uh, to other technologies. But only after we were able to get the processes in place and we know how to replicate that into different technologies, but trying to get everything right at the very beginning was like a really cost mistake for us. And I think it was like, yeah. Something that was, was not, not the right choice.
Russel:Yeah. And I think that is, that is very common and why we end up in that place, like as an agency is what you were talking about there, right? Is the product build phase. Like before we go just launch a thing and start selling and think we're gonna be profitable, it's, we gotta figure out all the same things we did on the things that make us specialist so we, we actually have a viable product that we can sell. And not only sell, but deliver effectively. I know at some point in your journey, you, the words you might have used were grew too fast. Um, has this already happened yet in our discussion, or is that yet to come?
Nico:It did, uh, it did somewhere in between. Uh, basically it was like I hit the, the gas on Google AdWords and I was receiving a lot of phone calls. I'm I. To be honest with you, when I started receiving the phone calls, it's like, all right, I cracked the code. I'm gonna go volunteer. Like I'm gonna be a millionaire in no time. So these, I, I already sort this out. So I, I was selling like, you need a website, I'll sell that to you. And I was selling, selling, selling, selling. And at the same time, I needed to do that. So I started hiring people. So probably within a year or what, I think it was like a year or so. From being a freelancer to being like an eight people team. But my numbers were for a freelancing business and I have a lot of the economics that were not definitely in place. So those was one of the, the bigger mistakes I made. And it was like growing too fast without having like solid foundations in of what I was doing. So. People will come create a website, but then it took like probably four months and at that time, in my mind, websites were taking 30 hours or so. So it like the, the math were off like by all meanings, so yeah. So yeah.
Russel:Nico, I think you're my agency brother from a different mother. I literally remember having this exact same conversation with my business partner, I think it was around 2008. And we were like, you know, came into the beginning of the year like, we're gonna blow the socks off this thing. We're just gonna sell like wildfire and we're gonna grow this thing to millions of dollars along the same basis. Like, just, just sell everything and we'll figure it out. And I mean, that was literally, I think what. That was probably the most dangerous words I've ever said in my life. And what almost caused the entire, all the wheels to fall off. Uh, and the way I always tell folks is, you know, very lucky to still have been in business after making a lot of bad moves like that. So, yeah. We gotta learn from the school of hard knocks, I guess.
Nico:Yeah, I think it was, it, it was hard, but it was, it was good learning that, and I think like when you learn with your own pain, it's, it's something that you'll take forever. So.
Russel:Right on. Right on. And then, it sounds like a lot of your early business, I mean, I, I know at some point you transitioned to wanting to focus on a US market. Um, were you already doing that at this point or is that coming, coming later as well? That,
Nico:that was, um, in, in that between, I grew too quickly. I have these eight people, team member. I didn't get the economics right. And also the other thing that started to happen, it sat in. Argentina, we're like a rollercoaster in terms of the economy, so we have ups and downs all the time, so it's hard to to project. So I had these eight people working for me. A lot of things that were my mistakes, but then a couple of other things were like. I was not able to bring as much work as I was able to because the economic was a bit down. So there I decided like, I don't wanna be depending on the cycles here in Argentina, so let's try to focus on growing other markets. And I started reviewing, and the US was one of the. Spots for me, the time zone, it's like pretty close. I we're one hour ahead of Eastern time, so it's like, all right, let's shoot there. So I started, yeah, trying to get into that market. So it was like starting from scratch, you know, like I didn't like Google ads. It was not an option for me because the cost per click was wakes like way too expensive for me. So trying to find other ways to get clients.
Russel:Okay. Like, what did you do? You wake up one day and said, I, I need to get more US clients. What, what did you do from there? So,
Nico:yeah, that was a process. Uh, one of the things like, uh, at this time I was at coworking space. So, uh, a friend of mine was doing this thing called email, which was the first time that I was hearing about it. So he said, all right, I'm gonna run some cold email campaign for you, uh, before. We screwed it up. And now cold email, it's hard to sell things with. So we started doing cold email and then it's like, all right, let's do that. But then I say like, if I'm gonna go to the US market, I need to go to the us. So I book a ticket, I go to New York and say, I'm gonna go there for a month and I'm gonna figure it out. So I remember packing my bags, going there, uh, renting a room in an Airbnb, uh, an. New York, it's an expensive city, but if you're from Argentina and you have Argentina pesos, it's way more expensive. So it was like a really big bet for me, uh, but I was determined to figure that out. So I remember going there. And saying, all right, I'm gonna go to a coworking space, meeting a lot of cool people and figure the things out. So well, I went to New York, I keep doing the cold email stuff and say, Hey, I'm here in New York. Let's grab a coffee. I went to the coworking space, which were way different from Argentina. In Argentina we had this, uh, small coworking space where you launch with people I ended up in a WeWork with, was not what I was expecting. And yeah, money was tied and trying to go to all the meetups that I can, uh, think of, uh, trying to meet people and uh, and, and yeah, trying to make my way in that month. And I remember walking to the coworking space because the subway was so expensive. Skipping some meals and eating Pringles, uh, at night. So yeah, trying to, oh, my push through the, the US market.
Russel:Oh my, there is so much to unpack there, Nico on so many different levels. I wanna break down some of this. Okay. So I mean, where do we even begin with that? I mean, you just like woke up one day and just jumped on a plane.
Nico:I think I'm not a huge planner. I'm more like a doer and sometimes it's like I feel that I need to go for something and I do it. So probably it was a process of like a month. It's like, alright, I'm gonna go next month to New York, so I need somewhere to stay. I need to start doing this cold email campaign. And I need to. Go to a coworking space to meet new people. So that was all the plan, and it was alright, like, let's be there for a month and figure it out. In retrospective. I think I learned that maybe spending there a month, it was not the most efficient. And probably a good, like, if I would have prepared that a bit better, I would like, maybe a week would've had the same effect with way, uh, yeah, way cheaper. Uh, but, well I had it to try it out and experience what happened there.
Russel:Yeah. I mean, I think again, probably similarities is I tend to be like, the best way that I'm gonna just immerse myself into something is, or get going is just throw myself in the middle of the ring. And then I, I know I have no choice but to fight my way out to the point. If I don't do that from my own personality perspective, I might take three or six months or sometimes later to plan it, and then maybe I stop planning and something else. So, I'm with you on this, just dive in but I mean, I just, it's one thing just. Go to a new place and do that. I mean, I don't know, had you spent time in the US before?
Nico:Yeah. And I've been there, I've been to New York before that, like for a week or so, like on vacations when I was younger. Run, yeah. A couple of other times to the us with my dad. Uh, but this was the first time that I was. First traveling alone. So I was like, completely alone. And I remember at some point I get some fever and I was like, there in my, in my bed, no one took care for me. So that, that was an experience. So it was like, all right, let's do it. I don't know, see what happens.
Russel:I just love, I love the hardship, I love the bravery, the courage to do something like this. I mean, it's even telling like not even enough money from the subway, which is a relatively cheap form of travel, but you know, I get it, right. You're kind of, we were over there trying to make it all work. I mean, by the end of it, where you're like, you know what, that was worth the while I did what I came to do and I'm, I'm glad I did it and I achieved what I,
Nico:yeah, yeah. Definitely worth it. Mostly in terms learnings. Things that I took, like from business that I came from, like I came with some good leads, some people that I knew there, uh, and stuff, but mostly the experience of going there, I think it was like changing for me, like. Sometimes you need to go to see stuff. You order to do it. Doing these trips like a couple times a year, it's hard. I know in the run. Do it over and over again, like that builds up momentum. But it's hard to, if you said, all right, this trip specifically, was it worth it? Like, if you don't come up with one client, then it's hard to say, all right, yeah, if it was worth it, but sometime it leads you the next to the next client or to the next move or whatever. So
Russel:yeah. Yeah. I love that thought. It just reminds me like, you know, and I, and you mentioned it earlier about your love sack copy business, that we might start down a path of doing something if we don't find success quick enough. We tend to abandon, right? It's human nature to some degree, but you know, there is some just messy, unfamiliar, unknown, just. Let go and figure it out aspect to a lot of these endeavors as a business. And yeah, we can abandon something good too early if we try to find success in every activity that we do. Definitely.
Nico:Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's definitely the case. Like sometimes you want to have like. The wins super quickly and try to say, all right, this is what I'm doing. I need to get this result or this outcome. And sometimes it's not as clear to see the outcome, but you can feel it that it's there and you're moving towards where you wanna be. And yeah, I felt that for this trip, it was like probably if I put it in a balance, like the amount of money that I spent versus the clients that I got, like it was negative. But in terms of like. My long-term goal of having like a US presence and understanding the culture and seeing how people work there, it was definitely, yeah, super helpful for me.
Russel:Yeah. Well, and me personally, I could see even being something like that, making me more successful is if I just get her out outside of the day-to-day life and responsibilities and I'm just plop myself in the middle and I have one focus. I feel like I might need to try this. I know I hope someone listening, someone out there, takes inspiration from this and goes and plops themselves down in another city, maybe even another country to drum up some clients. So I, I'm challenging a listener out there who's gonna take me up on this, and then, uh, I'll report back to you, Nico, if, if someone does or whatever. Um, well, really inspiring. Love that story. Um, all right, so you came out and that set you up for getting the US market. What year are we talking, where are we at in the timeline at this point?
Nico:I think probably we're four years in or five years in on the business. I think the transition, I was like growing White Canvas in Argentina for four years when I started to hit this, grow pretty quickly, these economic cycles and stuff and say, all right, like I need to go to the US market. And there were like probably, yeah. It was one of the World Cups. I don't remember which one. But it was one of the World Cups. And so I remember seeing the, one of the Argentina matches there in the, in WeWork.
Russel:Okay. And then just, I guess, give us a sense at some point you decided to start Loop three.
Nico:So let's say that was, uh, around year five or six in the White Canvas journey. Around that time, within two years, I was able to ship big part of my business to the us. I started onboarding agency clients there, started building good relationships. Word of mouth, started spreading and we were doing good there in the us but what started happening was. People were asking me, Hey, do you guys do web application outside WordPress? And I had learned a lesson, so I said, no. One of my ex-employee was starting this dev shop called Loop Three with another, uh, dev partners. So I would say, Hey guys, like here you have, like, I have this project. Do you want wanna grab it and gimme a cut for that? So after sending a couple of projects to them, I saw that they. They, they were really good in the dev aspect, but they were about to make the same mistakes that I did with webcam. So at some point say, Hey, like instead of me only sending words, to you guys, do you want me to come on board and help you organize this a bit better? And. Structure this as a company, they say yes. So I was able to start offloading a lot of the the, what commitment was like, I'm not gonna get into the operations whatsoever. Like, I can lead the way, I can bring new clients, I can do stuff, but you need to take care of like the delivery and handling the clients, all the stuff. So. I was doing that, I was receiving the clients and telling them on all this relationship that I had built, Hey, I'm starting this new agency where we're doing software development and we can do A, B, and C. And at that point we were doing software development within like some now web stack, but we were not niching down yet to venture capital. So a year in with Loop three, uh, this. Ex White Canvas client. He joined venture capital, uh, as a CTO and naturally needed like a dev shop. He hired us and we start niching down to the venture capital industry. And luckily that was like. The second time I learned the experience that the niches, like the moneys in the niches. For me at least, it was like we did the great work there. We start getting a name we get this big BC and then he referred us to another one. And right now we have a couple of like. At least four bcs that are, uh, top tier and we're doing really amazing things with them, so, okay. So yeah, again, like niching down there and starting to say no to all the other software development and trying to see where we go with that.
Russel:It's such a tough thing when we talk about positioning, right? So when I talk about a lot of folks is there's this fear, right, of if you're trying to grow, you're worried about the bottom line. A little bit of saying no to opportunities, but there is so much power in that, in. I mean, I don't get the sense that you're, you, you operate on a lot of fear per se. So it seems like when you latch onto an idea, it's just, all right, that's the new idea and let's just, yeah, look at work.
Nico:But it's always hard to say no to opportunities. Yeah. Like sometimes it's super clear. Sometimes it like the printer example, like, do you wanna fix my printer? And I said, no. But sometimes I remember I migrated like. 20 accounts worth of emails from computers to cloud providers. At my early days at White Canvas, and it was like something outside, but they were paying good money, so I was saying yes. So at a different level, sometimes now it's still happen. It's like, Hey, you're going for BC but we are doing this mobile application for whatever. Do you want us to give us a hand? And, and yeah, it's hard to say no. So, yeah.
Russel:When you're faced with that saying no, and like, not the easy stuff, right, like printers and stuff, like you're saying, but, but the things that are close, like what gave you or gives you the confidence to do that maybe in the early stage, right? I know eventually it comes a lot easier, but in those early days, like why were you able to do that? What'd you tell yourself?
Nico:I try to understand what are all the yes that I'm saying too, because for instance, someone would come and say, Hey, what do you develop this small application for me? And I might say yes, because I have an available resource, but what happen if then I get another venture through capital, which is. What I'm going after, and I don't have the resource or the developer to allocate to that project. So maybe saying yes to a project just for the money, it's derails you about the bigger vision and doesn't let you say yes to the things that will move the needle in the direction that you wanna go. So every time a project comes, I try to understand the economics of the project if they make sense.'cause sometimes. It makes a lot of sense and it's alright, like I can get this client and I get a lot of money to do other stuff, the client and if it has an opportunity and if it can grow and it's aligned with the vision that we're trying to have for ourselves and those two things, I think it's, they're super important to make the the right call and then if it's a fun project or if it's a fun client as well. You know, sometimes there are fun projects that you know that your team will be exciting on working and stuff and sometimes that. I don't think, like, even though this is a lot of money, this doesn't seem like a, a good client to work with. So those are easier to say no to.
Russel:Yeah, it certainly, uh, it's not a black and white scenario in anything like that, but breaking some of that down is something I talk with folks about a lot is I, I love what you said, the opportunity cost is not the fact, I'm just saying yes to this, but what is it going to force me to say no to elsewhere or what that trade off is? And yeah, the conversation I have a lot with folks too is. One, if we take that something on like that, that's maybe not ideal know what it is. Maybe it's just runway. Right. And we need runway sometimes. And yeah. And that's okay if we're taking on something from runway, but don't confuse it with growth. Yeah. And then yeah, break down the economics. Just, you know, not all money is green and, um, what is that gonna look like? And then really, it sounds like what you're saying there is just take the time to take a step back and just. You know, not just get caught up in the moment of opportunity one, but great. Is it fun? Is it, you know, the economics, whatever those factors are, um, just really take a minute Yeah. Before, before you answer and look at it at those levels.
Nico:Yeah. And sometimes it takes a minute to identify that. And it's good that you mentioned that because it happened two times this year. Uh, of all clients that came to me and say, Hey, like we have this problem. We have this product that we're developing. Would you mind helping us out? And we get into the process. Review the projects and stuff, and we're almost sending a proposal and at some point in there I say like, Hey guys, like we're not a good fit. Like this is not gonna be worth it for us. Like, I don't wanna be working in a project that we're not gonna be full committed about. Like, you're not gonna be getting the best auto fast, so let's. Move on a separate direction. And I think doing that, it was like a great call, but sometimes when you are on that sales process and you're embracing and say, Hey, I'm gonna close this. So your mind is like, I need to close it. And sometimes you need to stop and say, I really need to close this. Identify it's an opportunity that is worth getting or better passing on.
Russel:Uh, it makes me think of as you're kinda sharing that, you know, I think if you talk to people that really got good at something, or even maybe like professional athletes, I'm even sitting here thinking of this concept of losing to win. And the more I think we can make those sacrifices and still keep the lights on and know that that's the good, you know, have a vision or have something and, and that we're heading towards that allows us to do that a little sharper, a little faster, a little more focused, uh, to the extent that we can do that. That's, yeah, that's gonna be a better path more often than not.
Nico:Definitely. Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with that.
Russel:Great reminder there in, in many different forms. One other thing I, I wanna talk about, and you've brought it up in different ways throughout this conversations, is just understanding the economics of the activity and the business that we're doing. And I know for a lot of owners, especially when the bank account doesn't look as pretty as they'd want it to be it's easy to ignore the economic side or not give it its due and proper. Go into a little bit about what that journey's been like for you and how much you do, and don't pay attention to the, the economic side of this.
Nico:Yeah. So what I learned the hard way is that sometimes when I started, the economics that I was doing was pretty much super basic. It was like, this is the salary that I'm paying and this is the website I'm selling. So this is the money that I'm making. But there are a lot of. To that and understanding what that overhead cost is, like the occupancy of the agency, like how billable you can get your team all that stuff that are into the weeds or the products that you need to use to the project, or if you scope a project and then takes longer, all the stuff like you need to factor them in because they can hurt really, really quickly. Getting back to loop three, like if you want to be at a certain level, you need to be able to hire certain talent. So in order to do that, you need to have like an hourly rate that allows you to hire the right people, then make a profit out of that. I try to think about it like in reverse, like, all right, like what's the people that I want to hire to do what I need to do? How much should I charge my clients in order to do that, and what's the overhead cost that I'll have for these operations? And then what I'm doing with Loop Three that I learned the hard way as well with White Canvas and some of the process is trying to stay lean in terms of overhead costs, because you can get a lot of overhead pretty quickly and that start adding up to stuff. So trying to stay lean or to stay super billable, it's super important to stay healthy.
Russel:It just goes back to, it's just something you can't ignore. And if you want to stay lean, not different than our bodies. You gotta, you gotta work out, you gotta show up, you gotta pay attention to it. You gotta measure, you've got to work backwards. It's not just about, well, I wanna lose 10 pounds. It's how many times a week do I need to go to the gym? And, you know, how long do I need to work out and what kind of food I need to eat? And can we break it down and pay attention to it at the right level? And then I think this is the thing too. It seems to me it's so important to go through and unlearn, really learn that. And then once we learn that and understand that, then we can outsource it a more Yeah. You know, um, because it is not gonna ultimately long-term be the highest best use of your time once you do figure it out and put in the right mechanics and where you have more strategic financial help within the business. How does that look for you?
Nico:So it's amazing for me to, the more you learn, the more you learn that you know nothing about, like at the very beginning I was this more cocky in terms of like when I hit the first home run with the Google ads, it was like, I figure this out. Now 10 years seeing and it's like, alright, I know nothing. Like there are a lot of things for me to learn here and I know way more than I did in, in, in the very beginnings.
Russel:Yeah. Well, that says a lot about your character. I mean, I think they say that is wisdom, intelligence is the, the. As we get older and we learn more, we learn, we know less. And yeah, but it's that mindset that keeps us going. And I totally get it, man. I always think like if you went back and told like, I don't know, high school age, Russel like, Hey man, someday you're gonna own a$500,000 year business. I mean, I would've thought right then, like, oh my gosh, I'm the richest guy in the world. And then, right. We'd got to 500,000 in the first year, like, I got no money. Um, yeah. And, so it's we live and we learn. Well real quick, uh, we start to wrap up here. I'm just curious, what does the future look like for you? What's the big plan here? Cool.
Nico:So the big plan right now, we're betting a lot into ai, mostly for White Canvas and, and Loop three the same. But with White Canvas, we're building a product to offset a lot of the development work that we're doing with AI and try to be more efficient. I think there's gonna be a fundamental shift into how we do websites in. Near Future, future. So we wanna be prepared for that and be like right there on the forefront. So we'll build this product to use internally to be able to meet the standards of what the high quality work that we wanna be doing with a tool for ourselves and keep expanding on that direction and seeing if we can sell it as a SaaS product as well. Always. I had this. Trying to have a SaaS product, so we'll see if that works. And we're getting a lot of market in the BC area, so to keep expanding there, doing amazing work and getting other big clients and become a top player in that regard.
Russel:All right. Well, I can't wait to see that journey continue to evolve and the more things we'll have you on again, that you can say you didn't know the last time and learned in that process. Yeah. I'm excited to see that for you. Well, I got one last big question for you. Niko or entrepreneurs born
Nico:or are they made. I don't know if I have an answer to that. I think in my case, I was definitely born an entrepreneur. Like for me it was always something, but I knew it on my soul that I was an entrepreneur and I couldn't have it any other way. But I know for a fact that there are other people that are kind of entrepreneurs by chance, like they start doing something and it work and they're entrepreneurs. So yeah, I, I can speak about my, uh, experience and it was like I was born an entrepreneur hardcore. I
Russel:mean, I love a good born story, but so I'm hearing I was born, but I understand they can be made. That's yeah, we'll sum that up. Yeah. I think that's right there. There's no one right way or one way. It takes all kinds. if people wanna know more about White Canvas or Loop three, where can they go
Nico:so they can hit our website? It's uh w canvas.com or loop three studio.com.
Russel:There you have it. Awesome. Well, Nico, thank you so much for taking the time outta your schedule to chat with us here today. So many lessons about just diving in and the power of that to, the power of positioning and learning to say no. So many great insights and I really appreciate you taking the time to share those with us today.
Nico:Thank you for having me. It was super fun.
Russel:Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where every story helps you write your own, subscribe, share, and join us again for more real stories, lessons learned, and breakthroughs ahead. What's next? You'll want to visit an agency story.com/podcast and follow us on Instagram at an agency story for the latest updates.
Nico:When I was doing this PlayStation two stuff, I was four 15 years old. So at some point we need to get cheaper PlayStations in order to sell and make a better profit. So there was, uh, MSN like my Microsoft Messenger, and we found this guy online who was selling really cheap PlayStations. So we say, all right, we hit the chatbot. So they say, all right, like we have the PlayStations and we are in, in a little town like. Two hours away from, from, so you can send us the money over whatever. And we were discussing, they were sending the pricing. The pricing was good, was like 20% off the market. So say, alright, we'll definitely we'll do that, but we'll tell all right, like we are gonna go there and we'll go and see the PlayStations. My business partner, uh, dad, uh, he drove us there to find the PlayStations and when we were there it was like, Hey, there's no one here. And they were creating all the story about that they have the PlayStations in customs or whatever, but definitely we made it to the spot or to location on the street and we were ringing some bells and ringing neighbors and say, Hey, like. These guys are selling PlayStations and they told us, no, no, there are a lot of people coming here. This is, they're trying to steal you. So we went there. We have, um. Two hour trip to go to a little town to buy some PlayStations, but it was good that they didn't rob us or get our money for the PlayStations.
Russel:Yeah. Crisis averted another major jackpot opportunity. Missed air quotes. Um, but yeah, it sounds like you, you made it out about as good as you can. Just a, a little, a few bucks in gas in some
Nico:time. Yeah. But we was this really amazing sandwich on the side of the highway, so it, it was a fun day. There you go. There you go. And a learning experience as well.
Russel:It kind of just falls in the realm of, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.