The Case for Catch and Release Engagements - Arlington Strategy

Building a better agency is about building people, culture, and meaningful impact. In this episode, Jennifer Mulchandani of Arlington Strategy shares a refreshingly honest perspective on hiring, leadership, and why a better practices might be to not aim to keep clients forever. 

Key Takeaways

• A strong, human-first environment can outperform higher salaries and reduce costly turnover 
• Growth from empowering clients, not making them dependent on you 
• Time, energy, and opportunity cost make every hire a high-stakes decision

Transcript

Arlington Strategy

Russel 0:01

Welcome to an agency Story podcast where owners and experts share the real journey, the early struggles, the breakthrough moments, and everything in between. I'm your host Russel Dubree, former eight figure agency owner, turned Business coach. Sold my agency and now helps agency leaders create their ideal business.

Jennifer 0:20

Every agency has a story, and this is your front row seat. This is an agency story.

Russel 0:32

Welcome to the show today, everyone. I have Jennifer Mulchandani with Arlington Strategy with us here today. Thanks so much for being on the show today, Jennifer.

Jennifer 0:39

Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about the conversation.

Russel 0:42

Well, I'm excited as well. Let's get right into it. If you don't mind, start us off. Tell us what Arlington strategy does and who you do it for.

Jennifer 0:50

We're local in the DC metro market, a boutique marketing agency providing full service brand management, so everything from conceiving of a brand, brand strategy, market research, all the way through providing ongoing outsourced marketing support, either as a business or nonprofit's team, or we work collaboratively, our clients. Whether it's subject matter expertise on certain aspects of marketing management or, staff augmentation services. So it really runs the gamut in what we do.

Russel 1:26

Well, we're gonna figure out how you do and what that looks like in your day-to-day later. But first I wanna start with, and I want to hear about the life of young Jennifer. Where and how did she come up in the world? And we'll go from there.

Jennifer 1:43

I grew up in the Midwest. I'm a Michigan girl, born and raised my whole life I wanted to go and quote work in government. I don't know if I wanted politics or bureaucracy, but I wanted to, uh, you know, change the world. I was very fascinated by politics at a young age, very sense of righteous indignation from a young age, and then pursued a career in government and public policy, getting an advanced degree, and ended up working, in the presidential management fellowship program in the federal government, achieved my dream. And then after, you know, doing that a few years and then, you know, the natural progression of one's career path, I, um, somehow ended up running an agency. There's a lot in between there, but you know, it's, I am of the belief and I think there's different types of people in the world. In my first half of life was very like, goal oriented. I'm gonna go for that. And I think as I. I started opening doors or windows and kind of exploring opportunity and taking interesting steps outside of my intended path. I realized that's sort of where the rich stuff starts to happen, that there isn't a linear way to get anywhere. And I, so when I try to tell people like, what is my journey? It's like, it's so unique and it's, you know. And yet it makes so much sense. So,

Russel 3:07

isn't that funny how that works out?

Jennifer 3:09

It really is. I mean, as it turns out, working in politics and policy, I was in the legislative space for a while and then I was in a, a advocacy role for a long time. I. I's marketing. It's just no one called it that when you're in that side of the house, right? It's like positioning, it's communications, it's pitching, it's the attention economy. It's just attention for not selling a product. It's selling ideas and and advocacy. So it correlates completely, but no one would've ever thought of it as marketing.

Russel 3:39

Well, when you talk about that. It makes it sound a lot sexier than the terminology. I think what comes to mind when you whenever you just use the more status quo or governmental type words. But I'm curious, before we get into how you started your agency, I mean, you, you mentioned a couple things of why you wanted to focus in kind of a government, or political path. Where do you think that came from that passion, that desire? Do you have a sense of why that was such a strong conviction and belief for you.

Jennifer 4:08

I mean, I. Probably very influenced by my father, who just was a very vocal believer in, in what he believed in. And, uh, that influenced me at a very young age that he knew. What did your father do, He was a credit executive for mostly in the jewelry industry, but no, this was at home. This was like watching the news and, and yelling at the news and this, he took me to political rallies when I was very young. That was extremely influential on me. I remember when Mondale Ferraro were on the campaign trail in Michigan and, and we went to multiple, like local events for this and you know, seeing a woman running for vice president when I was a young kid was. Very impactful to me. And, uh, it fired me up. And I think my dad wasn't even a guy who did this for a living or even did it in his volunteer time outside of, you know, maybe the occasional donation. But he believed in fighting for what you believe in. He was also, he was a World War II vet,

Russel 5:11

okay.

Jennifer 5:12

And so, you know, army guy through and through. And, uh, so all that patriotism and stuff was, was also bred into our family culture. So that led itself a little bit. Into my pursuit.

Russel 5:24

Very fascinating. Well, that does shed a lot of light on, on your path or at least the start of your path. So coming back to maybe not modern time, but what's the lead up to starting your agency? How did, how did that path go?

Jennifer 5:38

Yeah, so accidental, right? Like I, for me, this was a part of my life where it was, what do I want? Do I need to work? I finished a role that taught me a ton and it reinforced in me that I loved marketing from the, it's like this intersection of creativity and analysis and it's just this, like marketing is a really big Venn diet. Diagrams, right? But like, I love that it allowed me to play in, in these different parts of my brain, and there's no bounds in what you can accomplish or go after with marketing. I love that open-endedness. But when I was at this like juncture, I'd had this public policy life and I'd had this advocacy life, really trying to make change happen for things I cared about. And then I, I moved into a consumer marketing role. Through a bunch of other decision points, and I was like, how do I bring this together? Like mm-hmm. How do I, I didn't wanna be just simply positioning a singular brand in a singular way. But I also wanted to do something that sort of felt meaningful, and I didn't wanna go get a traditional JOB, as at this point with like young children. And I thought I'll just consult, I'll just, um, see if I can get a client, be my own boss kind of situation. And it just snowballed. And then very quickly. Lonely comes to mind, like working by yourself as a singular consultant. I realized that so much of my joy and work had been with collaboration with people and really feeding off of other people's energy, and especially in the, on the creative side of things. Like I can crunch numbers by myself. I don't need validation. Excel gives me validation. But it, like, in terms of like,

Russel 7:27

Excel can be a lonely friend,

Jennifer 7:28

can be. I'm like a good, a good hack and, and I'm more of a Google Sheets girl now, but,

Russel 7:33

okay.

Jennifer 7:33

I think I'm the, on the sort of brand side and, whether it's messaging or positioning or the pitch, it's, I could think I have the best work in the world, but somebody is gonna be able to do it a little better. And I, I, you miss that when you're just working on your own. So, very quickly I was. I was realizing that if I was gonna stay on my own, I needed to have people I could work with. And so that, that opened the door to, to building something. But substance. Yeah,

Russel 8:02

I don't know if I could just be too few data points, but it seems like an underlying theme that I'm already recognizing in your journey is just a lot of intentionality that when you're approach things, you think about them when you're coming to this decision and you go wholehearted and then, but you're not afraid at maybe at some point to kinda step back and say, how is this evolving? Where is this going? And what. What am I really trying to do here? I don't know. Do you, do you think of yourself as very intentional and thoughtful? Even going back to what you said of this non-linear path that you've been on?

Jennifer 8:32

Yeah. It's hard for me to see too many steps ahead for myself, so I kind of will have snapshots of what I'm trying to get to, but it's harder for me to. Do it sequentially or sometimes the intentionality is, it's more like it's an abrupt decision point.

Russel 8:49

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer 8:49

And then I could be very thoughtful about it and make that decision. But I almost feel like at every turn, like the things that have happened that have been, whether it's success in my business or happiness about my business, or whatever it is, it's almost the things I didn't know were gonna happen. So it, it's like I work with some level of intentionality. In theory, but I think in reality I tend to be very reactive. Like I, part of it is like just too much to do, not enough time to do it. And so you're always being reactive. I don't know. Sometimes I think that's where, and this is like the opposite of any business book I've ever read, right? It's like, well just see what's gonna come along and maybe good stuff will happen, but it's almost being willing to not be so wedded to, but I said I was gonna do that. I was like, Ooh, this is interesting and I'm gonna. I'm gonna see where that takes me. It's super intentional, but it is. I don't use this word like, but there was alignment with what I feel like, like that feels right for me. Yeah. To pursue different things.

Russel 9:50

All right. So, so a blend of instinct, passion, desire. Yeah. And whatever. Yeah. Well, you know what I said, I'm sitting here thinking about, and this, and I've, I've kind of long felt the pain of this observing the world that, I think a lot of people might be sometimes more tend to. Retrofit a more intentional path to what really was a more haphazard journey. Totally. Anyway, so, maybe there's kind of front stage backstage concept here where people in the world are sharing that, that they just blazed this very intentional path step by step. And, it all worked out in the end. But I think far more paths go along probably with what you're saying than the former.

Jennifer 10:27

But I do think it's really beneficial to like look back and be able to go. That was the turning point or that was, that's where Path diverged and I made the choice. It interesting sort of. Chart the course in hindsight, because even if at the time it didn't, you didn't know where it was gonna end up, it's like those decision points really did matter to the outcome. Yeah. So I think it's illuminating, and it can be validating. It could also help, maybe watch out for that one again. Yes. Uh.

Russel 10:57

Yes. Reflection is key. I mean, you're, you're speaking to the heart of the history major in me.

Jennifer 11:01

Yeah.

Russel 11:01

Of so much of my passion of that is I want to better understand how we got here so I can better understand, not try to predict the future, but to determine some sense of what's a better or best way forward. Okay. So when you, when you said, I need some help and I'm gonna evolve this thing beyond just myself, was there a different mindset shift that you had to approach how you were going about things than you had previously?

Jennifer 11:26

Yeah, I mean, I think my experience is probably not very unique. It's like you, you really quickly realize like, oh wow. At my literal capacity, this is all I could produce from a revenue perspective or from an impact perspective, like that's pretty limiting because I'm, you spend so much of your time doing all the things, so that was a pretty easy hurdle to realize that. This could not be a substitute for a more traditional career path on its face. So making that initial hire really was that I needed free up the time so I could do the more high value work so that part was not a a tough call.

Russel 12:09

What was your first hire, just outta curiosity,

Jennifer 12:11

The title was Marketing Assistant, and I wanna say when I hired her, and her name's Jess Owens and she's, she's part of my alumni, we call them agency alumni, like first employee. I hired her for 10 hours a week. I was terrified about the, the financial impact of that. You know, can I afford this? Home office, like where I'm sitting, like I have an office now, but at times. It was just, I needed a, a right hand. And that's what she, she provided and she grew and she stayed with the company over five years and ended up leading client engagements and, and, you know, went on to become an entrepreneur herself. So that was a fabulous first hire.

Russel 13:00

Oh, great. Uh, that's good to hear. I mean, it can go both ways. I've heard, uh

Jennifer 13:03

oh, I've heard that. I've had bad hires. Don't get me a eye.

Russel 13:06

Oh, we, we all have bad, if you hire, you're gonna have a bad hire. But the first hire, how does the first hire go? That, yeah. That's always a little more interesting in which way that ends up turning Totally. So. Right away. I think we have a sense of, you said this intersection of changing the world and then marketing and everything's really just marketing anyway, so you had a philosophy as you were going down this path and even why you went down this path to begin with. How much has that changed to where you're at today of just how you're approaching the work you do and

Jennifer 13:37

Yeah,

Russel 13:37

kind of the call, the positioning of what you're doing?

Jennifer 13:41

Yeah. I mean, I think the struggle now is. And I was just in a meeting with my operations director. It's the struggle is to try to keep. Not just Chase work, right? Not just Chase like the next sale. And like, I don't wanna be a commodity. And I never thought of it that way until I was talking to someone in our community who was describing his business. And as he's like, that was an intentional decision he made early in his positioning. And I was like, I love that description because. I never articulated it, but it's really important, like when I talk about why my, why me, why someone should hire me. I often talk about the fact that we aren't a quote unquote, just this type of agent. We don't just do digital. We don't just do web. We don't just do SE, like there's no, just because we really come in with a strategic perspective. And I also complain in lament that I don't have nothing off the shelf to sell people. And boy does, is that a terrible business model? Like it's terrible. It's like everything you're selling requires customization or a, a customized proposal. It's our lift is higher than someone who has package A, B, and C. I recognize that I've been schooled by business coaches on how to do this more efficiently and effectively. And so that is like, it takes work to resist that commoditization because I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna sell widgets packaged as, you know, a Google Ads package, right? I really like to get deep with the brands we're working with and better ourselves in what their culture is and what their position is and, and shape it strategically. And apps were outsourced. So we can provide the, all those buts and hours and seats or whatever you wanna call it. But I just don't wanna be manipulating things on the outside without really feeling like we have an emotional stake in all of our clients' brands because we do. And if it gets to, not to say I haven't had client relationships that have turned into commodity provisions and those start to not feel good and it's not what gets me to the office excited to work with the team. So there is work and. Letting ourselves become just robots and pushing buttons.

Russel 16:00

Well, it, it's interesting, I think this is what we're really witnessing now with ai is that, you know, just that floor of commoditization within the marketing space is getting a little higher and higher.

Jennifer 16:11

Yeah.

Russel 16:12

Which I think is, is all the more. Requiring out of agencies and requiring us to be a strategic partner. Consultative, and really everything, yeah. Is a snowflake and is a very unique problem to be solved and can't mm-hmm. Take cookie cutter type initiatives. Not to say it's not good to look for in efficiencies in our world, but I'd say your approach is necessary, to do effective, meaningful work.

Jennifer 16:36

Yeah. I, I think so. I think but that keeps it aligned to that, that warm and fuzzy stuff that like was my, is my, continues to be my why. You know? It, it's because we, we know what we're after in terms of our, the type of work we're doing. We're able to make sure that we keep that feedback loop of feeling like we're doing something impactful, not just for. People's bottom line, which obviously for everyone's in business, but for something we think a, a little bit greater purpose of community impact.

Russel 17:07

Which, which is amazing, And you know, I think for the folks that are on the early stages of their journey, that's a, that is a journey and a process to get to, but that's really the path we should be on, is doing work. We feel good about Good. Work, we feel aligned with work, we, we feel we're an impact, whatever that impact is and feels like that's really the name of the game and the goal with it. Exactly. It's always great to hear stories of people on the more mature side of that, living that out and sticking to that so you're, stake in the ground for others that can follow in similar, same footsteps. Something that that caught my attention, um, when we were speaking before was. This concept that you want your clients to outgrow you. I don't know if I'm wording that right, but what, tell us more about that, and why is that important for you?

Jennifer 17:56

Yeah, so you are saying the right words. I think I use those exact words. It's, we even write this some proposals that sometimes the what clients really need is not just outsourced. Right, like sort of like just being a temp service. If you'll to cheapen. To cheapen it all for some of the clients we're serving, particularly the smaller nonprofits whose business model should not be supporting, frankly outsourced agency. Support for the long term. It's just, it's not financially sustainable. It can't be justified in their business model. For the most part. Large organizations, it's a little different because there is this at a certain level where, particularly large organizations where agency, there's a cost efficiency to working with an agency often. But for the smaller ones, they really need capacity. They need upskilling. They need to know how marketing and communications needs to be embedded in their fundraising and in their stewardship and in their outreach to volunteer. Right? It's so I love if we can come in and do the strategic work to position them and get their team so that they can be capable, because then they can do more with. The limited resources they have, that's better off for our community than them hiring my team to do it continuously. Not better for my revenue, but it's better for the community if they aren't hiring an agency to do expensive work. But then even for our small business clients. There's a threshold with which businesses are ready to really work substantially with an agency, whether they have a certain level of direct spend that they can't, man, they don't have the skillset to manage paid placement or multi and omnichannel campaign. Though businesses that are have that kind of expenditure benefit greatly with working with an agency. But I also really love working with small businesses who are not yet there in. Growth. But again, it's like to working with nonprofit where we can come in and make a huge impact early because it's so much better to build right from the to like. Disjointed brand and bad messaging brand and you know, and then three years in the business owner's going, I don't know why. No one knows we're here and no one can find us. And we need to rebrand and we need to tell our story. And it's like, what a wasted opportunity if they spend three years or five years struggling because they don't know how to market. So if we can go in and work with a brand on the front end. And really create a marketing program that is sustainable for them, whether it's the principal or they have a junior person who can come in. But if that can help a business be successful and grow and not need an agency to just be continuously providing. A button a seat kind of support, like I think the more that small businesses can be enabled to have the tools and and know how to compete, then they're gonna invest more in our community themselves too, and I want them to then. Save some money, partner with a nonprofit, bring in interns, train the next generation. There's all kinds of things, and it's not all about just keeping my revenue because there's the, I have the next client I can start to help too. So I think there's a, the business mindset of I want Clients for life is you don't need to have that level of skill at every step of your marketing stuff. And so for me, the role is really, I wanna be the strategic partner. I wanna provide that CMO level lens and accompanying support to enable, I wanna see people be successful. I don't want them to feel like it's gonna fall apart if we're not being the ones to do it again. I, I think like business coaches everywhere rolling their eyes that I'm not doing it right because I don't,

Russel 21:47

no. With people listening, Russell is not rolling his eyes. He's, he's, he's not rolling his eyes one time because he agrees with that everything that Jennifer is sharing,

Jennifer 21:56

uh, disc you the melody. Thank you for the validation.

Russel 22:00

Yes.

Jennifer 22:01

I just think it really comes down to the end of the day, what, what do we wanna do in our time? That we have here to, for me to be an employer is number one, or on par with serving my clients. And, and it's, I don't want it to be anything less than I'm truly here to make you better.

Russel 22:18

Yeah. I love this

Jennifer 22:19

and, and that should mean that you, for a lot of the, my clients, they will outgrow us that's a win.

Russel 22:25

Well, you created 17 rabbit trails that I want to go down on by everything you shared there. Um, because it, it, there's, there's a lot to, to really unpack that I think is really fascinating concept that Right. I, I think an underlying premise, you know, like you're saying business coaches out there say this, that, that's crazy, but. You know, one, it sticks out to a lot of times that need of retainer income, recurring income is solving the agency's problem is not necessarily a product always designed to solve the client's. And so what I love about that approach from you is. You've really taken the market or the client need and built a product and a methodology that solves that. I, I think it's, I think it's great.

Jennifer 23:12

Thank you. So I think the key takeaway here for any, especially like kind of infant agencies is, and this is the same with parenting mind you, and I think you have kids, I think we talked about. Mm-hmm. I don't maybe not decide what really matters to you, and then you find the person who's gonna help validate it. And tell you you're doing a good job because. Yeah, that's my advice.

Russel 23:36

Yeah. Well we all need a little extra cheerleaders, but, I think it, it makes this a sense of, and I don't know how often this happens, right? But you know, I think of one you can probably charge a little bit, call it per hour or per time invested engagement when you don't treat it as a, Hey, this is something you're about to assign until you decide you're not wanna do this anymore, which could be years down the road. And at that point, it seems like a lot of times relationships can kind of just more. Fizzle out,

Jennifer 24:04

mm-hmm.

Russel 24:04

At that point, but I don't know if this happens with you, but, and, and maybe this sounds like the, the, what's happening in the, the larger engagement as well is you can come in and out as needed when new problems, new strategy is needed, and they think of you as the go-to person that. Hey, let's go back to our LinkedIn strategies Let's go back to Jennifer's and her team because they helped us get us through this last time, and they can help us do it again. Just to your point. Exactly. Small businesses aren't going through those cycles as quickly as large organizations.

Jennifer 24:37

Mm-hmm.

Russel 24:37

Which ate, so you don't need this. Recurring engagement. I mean, is that happening for you

Jennifer 24:42

hundred percent? Yeah. When you think about like how do you measure if you're doing it well, it's like having the repeated clients, people come back. That's the validation right there, that's telling you you are providing something that's special to them. And I love that. And we do have that.

Russel 24:59

There you go. And I don't know how the economics work out and if, if that happens enough times or you build up enough base of that, it's like recurring revenue. It just doesn't happen quite as linearly as a typical retainer type engagement. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Cool. Well, very fascinating, and as you were sharing all that, it just made me think back to young Jennifer and this passion and this desire to change the world, and she was coming out or still there in terms of how you were talking about all that you're making, making. Oh, it's fun to think about that. Making proud.

Jennifer 25:31

Aw, that's so sweet.

A Human Business

Russel 25:32

I love that. Well, another kind of area that's near and dear to my heart is, is I know culture and team and just being really inclusive is, has been important to you. Tell us a little bit like what that looks like in, in the day to day and how you operate your business.

Jennifer 25:48

It's key. People say, why do I like having an agency? It's, I think that there's a real special, something when you handpick who becomes your colleagues. Most of us in this world, when you're working in regular jobs, no matter what it is, you inherit who's at the table And I realize that people I hire are inheriting a team that they didn't pick either, but me, my selfish me, I get to. Make those decisions. I've not gotten, I am not a hundred percent hitter by any, any stretch of this. No one is, no one should be either. So, but yeah, I in fact, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm pretty proud of the team that we do have, and it's been the most rewarding. And so for me, it shows up a few ways. I often say flexibility is our middle name. I started this little business when I ha I was in this office with a nanny at the house and little kids screaming their heads off. So I have had, and have many working parents who work for me and sometimes it's frustrating, but I hundred percent. Amenable to the kid who needs to be picked up from school early or the kid who's homesick, or the doctor's appointment or the all fill in the thousand things that interrupt working parents' lives because I was lucky enough to be in jobs that were, the leadership valued that flexibility for me. And then I built this. To value the people more than the time of day that they're able to focus. And I think when you give your team sort of the space to be human and working, parents being only one element of humanness, people have other things that have, grief and other personal crises. And we have military attached spouses and like, there's all these different challenges on our team. But if you can create a culture that that is people first, not employee first, if that makes sense. Like it's not about the output. Output, it's about like we're humans and I often find myself frustrated. I'm a small business, I can't compete with the Edelmans of the, and thele of the world and like agencies that would, who can recruit and pay like very nice corporate salaries with benefits and. There, there's, it could, you could start to feel like, oh, I'm not enough. I can't do enough for my team, but I can give a place to work that puts them at the center. I hope that's what I'm creating. That's my goal. And I think just given the longevity of the people who work for me, I think it's been successful. Does my bottom line reflect? That probably like in, in not the way that people who are, who are only revenue or profit driven would like, there's a cost to creating that calling to culture. There's agency owners I know who, who will say to me, oh, well these junior people, like, I know I'm getting them, 18 to 24 months max, and I'm gonna have to replace them every one to two years because they, to them, the churn is part of their business model. That works for them. That works for them, that's great for me. Like that would kill my culture if I had that kind of churn all the time. Because for us it's deep, meaningful relationship building and to the clients like, boy, if my clients had to meet a new person on their team every year, that would be I. Stop them.

Russel 29:17

Yeah. Right. You know, one, I'm, I'm just a big culture advocate. I always say, look, we're an agency. Business is the most human people business of all businesses in the world. We have, the clients are humans. Their customers are humans. We're humans. And then we're trying to get all these humans together to do hard things and strategy and move. So, so we've gotta be very human centric. Yeah. And it's come up in other conversations before, but again something I always mention is. So much of our management practices, and I can't really necessarily speak for the rest of the world, but I would say in the US in particular, is driven from a more industrial age mindset of command and control. Yeah. And that just one, it's probably never a great strategy to begin with, but it was great for making widgets. But when we think about doing strategic work, creative work. Hard work that humans have to be able to feel taken care of, feel safe, like they have an impact and a say, um, they have to be vested and mm-hmm. And so I'm gonna stand behind and say it shows up in the bottom line. It's just not a dollar cent into being able to do great effective work. Uh, yeah. So, I'm team with you here.

Jennifer 30:25

Yeah. And I would also recommend as you hire teams, this is again, is like one of those business book things where you talk about stress testing your own business. Like can it operate without you as the principal for, for a pH? Can you, should you be able to take a vacation for a couple weeks and not need to take your laptop? To me, that's a huge win because I know other people who can't.

Russel 30:47

Yeah.

Jennifer 30:47

The other thing that stress, we had a staff member who had to take personal leave for a month and I found myself doing the work. You know, it like kind of hearkened back to the, those early beginnings of like actually being the one producing and, delivering the marketing work on a day-to-day basis and it was just such a good reminder of what the work really is. As an agency owner, it's really easy to especially as you build a team, like I get a little further away, a little further away from delivery, which I'm happy about. I like driving strategy and quality and relationships, but the, the minutia of it, so that social post makes sense of the context of what we're doing for the client, is that graphic on brand and all that minutia, getting a, a glimpse to have my hands in it again. It just is very. Reorienting to what my team has to do on a day-to-day basis and saying, oh, that chaos that they are doing as part of their job. Like, I felt that, and I hope it'll make me more empathetic or provide better systems, or you, it provides this stress test that allows me now to go back and fix maybe areas that are a little harder for the people than they need to be.

Russel 31:58

I love that you said the word empathy. I mean, I, I think if, if Russel got to wave a magic wand and only give one leadership trait, to any business owner or even any human out there, that empathy word is so critical to solving all the different challenges seems like you have to solve in, in business these days. Um, so I, I love that you shared that word. That's a very important critical word.

Jennifer 32:22

Mm-hmm. Agree.

Russel 32:24

Something that, stood out too. And, and I think I really, I did get to see this in dollars and cents, when I was running an agency, is, this narrative that you're sharing of, look, I can't afford to compete with such and such, these high salaries. But the way you do compete with that, and you might recognize this, is the great culture that one of the things I feel like I again observed in the numbers is that culture will buy someone. You know, not to say we're intentionally leveraging this per se, but someone will take a 20 to 30% pay cut to work at an amazing place. Mm-hmm. Um, when you get into 40, 50%, which is what we kinda experienced in the post COVID boom. Where people were like, okay, 50% more. That's just too much impact on my family. But it's funny too, is I've heard plenty of stories in the aftermath of that, of people came back once they found the bad culture higher pay wasn't worth it. Yeah. The math didn't match at the end of the day.

Jennifer 33:15

Totally. I agree. I mean, the cost of hiring who's not yet done it is significant. Even hiring a very junior role. If you as the agency owner are leading that, it's like the number of hours you are going to not be doing all the other things in your business to be posting, reviewing resumes, screaming interviews, references. It's insane. The opportunity cost for each and every hire. We, opened up what's like, we've had good hires. We've had bad hires. It's, I think when you really think about like what, what has potentially the largest impact on your overall bottom line as an agency? It's the people, as you said, because they are our product. We're leveraging people. Um, we're not making widgets, but it, it's like getting, doing those like strategic hires are so critically important because they're gonna cost you so much to execute.

Russel 34:12

Well, maybe that's just a reminder for the folks at home then to sit down and think about if you're lamenting about some of these things that we might have have been talking about through the course of this episode. Sit down and try to figure out the true cost of hiring, spinning up a new team member and all that, and it it might say there's a, a better investment to make elsewhere so you don't, aren't forced and not say we can control it a hundred percent of the time, but you can put the odds more in your favor by, being more empathetic, more people, first culture. So know your true cost to hiring and it, and it might, um, might align for strategy. Keep your people then. Yes. Yeah. Good, good reminder to us all. Well,

Jennifer 34:49

yeah.

Russel 34:49

Fascinating everything. Love a good people centered business. Love a, a mission, um, driven business. So, checking all the boxes today in terms of my passions, but where's the future going for you, Jennifer? What does that look like

Jennifer 35:02

for Jennifer? It looks like pickleball and golf. And

Russel 35:06

are, are you a really good pickleball player? Would, would you smoke Russel

Jennifer 35:09

on the ball? I'm terrible ball. I played, I played twice, but Okay.

Russel 35:13

Dreams,

Jennifer 35:13

pickleball

Russel 35:14

dreams.

Jennifer 35:15

It, it is. I think that's what I'll do one day if I retire. Okay. Uh, when I retire, not this. I feel like, you know, so my agency's 14 years old and uh, I'd like to think about retirement mode. Mm-hmm. That's about as far as I've gotten. I don't have the exit plan. I don't know the timeline. I think I shared with you in our pre-call, like, you know, I was not like schooled. I don't have an MBA, I don't, I didn't set this up, maybe with the exit in mind, which. I am, I'm now focused on that side of the business. Mm-hmm. So that's for me where a lot of the work is of the, of really just making this something that can outlive me. Mm-hmm. That would bring me great joy, whether it's the brand or the people, or just the cohesion that I think that our agency has built in our community. I don't want to just close the doors one day and have that be gone.

Russel 36:07

Yeah.

Jennifer 36:08

So I don't know what that'll look like,

Russel 36:10

but that's alright.

Jennifer 36:11

That's where my head is.

Born or Made?

Russel 36:12

It's a, a noble and worthwhile goal and something that, this impact that you've been able to create to a longer lasting version of that, I'm confident you will get there and look forward to seeing what that looks like for you. Well hate to start to wrap up this conversation, but I guess all good things come to an end. One last big question for you, Jennifer. Are entrepreneurs born or are they made.

Jennifer 36:35

Kind of think they're born. I have had a lot of conversations with folks that say to me. So I'm thinking about maybe starting a business one day. Do you think I should do that? No. It's a terrible idea. Like nobody should have to convince themselves because boy is like this anyway. The odds are not with you, my friends. No, I'm not saying like you're born to know how to do it, but I think the want to do it is not something you learn. You either want it or you don't, and if you want it, you can learn how to do it. That part comes, but to try to convince yourself that you should be a business owner. I think you're not gonna come from a place of passion.

Russel 37:19

I like that. All right. I, that's in the realm. I've certainly heard a gamut of answers to that, but in the realm of slightly unique of just the, the power of a want to is how critical that is to waking up every day and doing the hard things that it takes to be a business owner. And if you don't have that. It's gonna be real hard to do everything else. Yeah. So I, I can certainly totally identify with that. Well, awesome. If people wanna know more about you and Arlington strategy and your journey, where can they go?

Jennifer 37:47

Well, arlington strategy.com, uh, and we're on all of the typical socials and LinkedIn Arlington strategy, so you can find us there.

Russel 37:56

Beautiful. Perfect. Well. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to remind us of the power of humans and talent and taking care of them and all the things that go into that. First and foremost, starting with empathy and that not all businesses have to look like how do we work together for, but that there are ways to position yourself to come in and out as needed, and a powerful reminder in that as well. Really appreciate you taking the time to share that with us today.

Jennifer 38:25

Well, Russell, thank you for having me. This has been a great conversation. Really appreciate it, and I appreciate your validation.

Russel 38:33

There you go. I'm happy to provide it. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where every story helps you write your own, subscribe, share, and join us again for more real stories, lessons learned, and breakthroughs ahead. What's next? You'll want to visit an agency story.com/podcast and follow us on Instagram at an agency story for the latest updates.

Jennifer 38:58

I have one, one star Google Review, and it's from someone I didn't hire who is upset with an outsource recruiter reused. It's like, well, I'm now I. Do hiring myself. I've hired people who, who lasted literally one day on the job. All of that cost we talked about, they last one day. And, and this wasn't even that early in my journey. This is like, you know, in the last five years. And, and then you're like, it kills your confidence as an agency leader after thinking, like, did I get so cocky that I forgot how to, like. Assess for fit and culture and all of this and, but then the reality is like you don't know if other people are coming into the process with the same level of transparency and authenticity that I'm bringing to the process. Right? I think there are people who use the process too. Get their current employer to pay them more. They use the process to make other things happen in their life. It had nothing to do with me, but those couple examples have really shook my confidence on, on the hiring front. And, and then that's when I used the outsource recruiter to do a strategic hire, and that resulted in this one star Google review, which was like devastating for, for me as an agency who like helps clients get good Google reviews. Right. And it's, it's sitting out there. Part of it is, it's just a reminder that I had to, I have to trust myself. I got scared so I outsourced, and that didn't end up necessarily being the best fit for me either. So I guess there's not a good bow on that story, but to say that team building, there's dirty laundry there for, for every agency in terms of their hiring it. And that still sticks with me unfortunately.