Always Listen for the Wish - VANCE

Public relations is no longer just about messaging, it’s about trust. In this episode, Kelly Vance, Founder of VANCE, shares a few simple but powerful philosophies on helping organizations communicate more effectively in a world filled with misinformation, public skepticism, and constant noise.

Inside this episode:

•  Why communications deserves a seat in the boardroom 
•  The impact of today’s “trust deficit” 
•  How to uncover the real problem clients are facing 
•  A unique approach Kelly implemented for hiring 
•  The difference between simply delivering and creating real value

Transcript

Introduction & About Vance

Russel 0:01

Welcome to An Agency Story podcast, where owners and experts share the real journey, the early struggles, the breakthrough moments, and everything in between. I'm your host, Russel Dubree, former eight-figure agency owner turned business coach, who sold my agency and now helps agency leaders create their ideal business. Every agency has a story, and this is your front row seat. This is An Agency Story. Welcome to the show today, everyone. I have Kelly Vance here with us with Vance. Welcome to the show today, Kelly.

Kelly 0:38

Thanks for having me, Russel. I appreciate it.

Russel 0:40

I'm excited to have you. I know we're gonna have no shortage of good topics to get to today, but let's just get it started right out of the gate. Tell us what Vance does and who you do it for.

Kelly 0:51

Well, uh, Vance, this is our 15th anniversary of being- Well, congratulations alive. Public relations firm. Yeah, we're excited about it. Um- You

Russel 0:59

can almost drive. We're, we're well done.

Kelly 1:01

We can almost drive. Yeah, there's some who would like to take us off of the road. But, um, no, it's- it's- it's really exciting. It's a PR firm. Uh, we really are a collective of senior practitioners that specialize in working with mission-driven brands. So I'll do a lot of work with the public sector, a lot of nonprofit work, and, generally speaking, we handle a lot of kind of complex and sensitive issues.

Russel 1:28

All right. Well, we're gonna find out all of the complexity that it- you might be getting into, and always love a mission-focused oriented company. Making The world a little better through your own skill set is always good to see. But so before we do all the agency talk, I'm more curious about young Kelly. Who did she wanna be when she grew up and what was the path from there?

Kelly's Origin Story

Kelly 1:55

I thought about this a lot, Russel- when we last spoke. Yeah, you had asked me how I kind of got here, and I was thinking to myself that I started in the usual way with a layoff. But then if I go back even further, I think about how I got into communications, and I do remember a seven-year-old Kelly who would go all over the neighborhood with my little tape recorder interviewing anybody who would listen or who would- who would indulge me. So, you know, it started with my dad and my sister and, of course, maybe even the dog. I don't know. But we would, I would... I have a lot of taped interviews, uh, from that period of my life- Do you still

Russel 2:32

have these?

Kelly 2:34

on tape. I do have some.

Russel 2:34

Oh my gosh. Not going to

Kelly 2:35

share some of

Russel 2:36

those. Uh, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just fascinated that you still have them. That would be, that would be some good listening content, for sure.

Kelly 2:42

They're, they're very cute when I was seven. They, they get a little cringier as I become a teen, and I think I know a lot more than I do. But, uh- I interviewed my, my grandmother, um, and those are treasures, too, because of course-

Russel 2:54

Absolutely

Kelly 2:54

you know, I got people to tell me about their lives, just like you. So I always had an interest in, in doing that. And then really I'm not surprised I got into, the public sector stuff because as a young adult, I went into the Peace Corps and found myself wanting to, connect with people there, too. So that's my origin story.

Russel 3:13

Wow. I, I mean, it's like the most perfectly laid out path it seems like to be where, exactly where you're at today, starting at the youngest of ages. What do you think about, doing something pretty cool, eh? I'm sure I wasn't doing anything that interesting when I was that age. Why do you think that appealed to you so much?

Kelly 3:31

That's a good question. I think I-

Peace Corps & Finding Her Path

Kelly 3:33

I've always been curious about people. I'm certainly a talker, so I don't know if I was the greatest interviewer. I just enjoyed- the conversation. But I've, I've always enjoyed learning about people. I have found that being able to help somebody tell their story has been really very rewarding. So I'm not really surprised that I ended up here. The trip was completely accidental.

Russel 3:55

Well, as, as sometimes many entrepreneurial journeys and probably 50% of all agencies were started because of a layoff. Yeah. Why, why in your particular case when that did happen, that you're like "You know what? I'm gonna go out on my own. I'm gonna start my own thing"?

Starting the Agency (By Accident)

Kelly 4:11

No, I never, I never thought I was going to do anything like this. Uh, I- it was a, layoff that happens all the time. I was going to just get right back out there and, and get another job. And, at the time, I had a client, it was a very small client. I was at a small, uh, PR firm, and I, I knew it backwards and forwards, and you're not supposed to leave with your former company's clients, and so It

Russel 4:35

happens.

Kelly 4:36

They did ask permission.

Russel 4:37

Yeah.

Kelly 4:37

And, uh, the company was very, uh, gracious and said, you know, "If you really do wanna work with her, you can." And so I had my first client really, uh, i- in my, my first week. So I picked myself- Okay up and, decided... I wasn't exactly sure. We only had one client, so I thought- Yeah "Well, I will-"

Russel 4:53

I mean, was that enough to pay the bills, or is it, was it more just like- "Hey, this is gonna, this is gonna cover the rent, uh, if only for- Yeah for the near and dear term"?

Kelly 5:01

No, this was, this was a small client. Okay. Um, big for me, I mean, big for somebody who hadn't planned to have an agency, and, and certainly a great one. But I hadn't really quite, you know, picked myself completely up. So I had this opportunity, and I thought, "Well, I'm gonna see what I can do," and I was interviewing for jobs, but I was also working with this client, and finally the client said, "It's been about three months. We, we are gonna need to know if you're fully in

Russel 5:28

or if

Kelly 5:28

you're out." Mm-hmm. Sure.

Pregnancy, Pivots & Early Growth

Kelly 5:30

So I decided to make the jump, and, uh, was going to just fully commit myself to doing it, and, uh, about two weeks later, I was pregnant with my first child.

Russel 5:42

Oh my gosh.

Kelly 5:44

So I thought for sure I was sunk, but I ended up being able to pick up some additional clients, and I was able to make the rent, as you say, and I even gave myself some maternity leave. So I- Wow was very, very, very lucky. But I mean, I had to I do remember, um, early, early in my venture and early in my pregnancy, I took a cross-country trip with Chevy coming from Richmond to Austin, Texas. It was my first kind of blogger trip really, but, uh- Okay that was an adventure I had not anticipated. It really has been a wild ride, but, um- Yeah I'm very, very lucky to have had that unfold the way it did.

Russel 6:26

And this comes up a lot on the podcast, and I think about my own experience, other than military and agency life, has been my professional career. But, you know, it seems like you get a lot of interesting, unique experiences in the agency business that I don't know that too many other crafts or careers would lend themselves to just the unique circumstances we often find ourselves in.

Kelly 6:49

Yeah, I think you're right. Well, you know, communications people are natural connectors. And we're a pretty resourceful bunch, and I think if you decide whether whatever field you're in, if you decide you're gonna give something a try and, and go with an open heart and an open mind, a lot of fun things can happen.

Russel 7:07

Absolutely.

Kelly 7:09

Very, very grateful. I, uh, that's

Russel 7:11

It's probably a good, good way to approach things, and we could always, walk through life with a little more gratitude. You know, when you shared, like you said two weeks later, you kinda said, "You know what? I'm gonna do this," and then you said you're pregnant with your first child. Did that solidify your decision, or did that make you wanna re-question or think things through more? I know that's a, that's obviously just a, two really- Yeah big life transitions happening almost simultaneously.

Kelly 7:35

It... I, I don't know how I convinced myself that that was the way- to go, but I, I... But, you know, to be fair, I mean, I was getting very similar feedback from, the job interviews I had, or, or the informational interviews when I was looking down that path, and it was like, "When you make up your mind about what it is that you wanna do, you just let us know." And I thought, "I think I'm being so clear," but I hadn't really committed, so I knew I had to pick a path, and, having done that- It would take a lot for me to- Yeah to shift. So- Yeah I, I had some milestones that I laid out, like anything else, and so I needed to, first, I think with a lot of agency stories, it was like, "I need to make this much in order to keep this going." And I was able to do that. I really couldn't believe I was able to, uh, hire somebody who would cover for me while I was on maternity leave. Yeah. That I will, a shout-out to Trevor, if you're listening. I'm very lucky. I think I was just very, very fortunate in the beginning. Yeah. We certainly had plenty of setbacks along the way. But my first year, uh, I, I really, really, cannot e- I can't even express, how grateful I am that it worked out. Yeah.

Russel 8:48

Well, look, it, we all know, I think anybody that looks back on, especially having a any amount of time in the entrepreneurial space, knows that luck somehow had to occur. but I don't know that you're giving yourself- Yeah full credit for, your own talents and capabilities as you were going about that process. But I am curious, right? And so that could be a very difficult situation relatively within a year in your business, having to take off some amount of time, for a very important cause and, and reason. Coming back from that, did that change your thinking on how you were approaching your business?

Kelly 9:19

No, you know, it's fu- I, I don't know if I've even asked myself that question. Honestly, I think I was much more committed. I couldn't believe that I was able to, to pull it off the first year, considering all of those things. And I was... I found myself having a lot of fun. I like to solve problems, and so at the time, I was working with a lot of small businesses- with normal small business problems. And coming in with a health background, which I have, I have a long history in healthcare and public health, and Being a resourceful person, I was able to come in and consult and, at the time I was doing a lot of media pitching. I had relationships. It was very local, but I had a lot of that at the outset. And so I wanted to, to build on that and really start to zero in on some of the client work that I really enjoy. So I started to gravitate to a lot of nonprofit. I even, uh, came back to do some consulting for, uh, the Virginia Department of Health, where I had previously served as their- Communications director, so I knew a lot about that, and it was kinda fun to be on the other side of the desk.

Russel 10:24

Well, that was gonna be my, my next question that was bubbling around in my head was at some point, you know, when did you move into this mission-driven, organizations and this being your focus And then parlaying that back to you said you joined the Peace Corps. And so it seems like that's been an important thread in your journey too, is this... I don't know how you'd label that, but some amount of give back or do good or make the world a better place is... sounds like that's part of your ethos.

Kelly 10:51

I mean, m- uh, yes, I think, I- everybody, I think, feels good when they do something good for their community or for the world. That's great, but, I think really it is about, for me anyway, connecting with people is really at the heart of it all. And so I have always had a love for languages. Before I graduated, from college, I had taken many, many years of French, and I thought for sure, when I interviewed with the Peace Corps, they did line it up for me to go to Francophone Africa. But as life always throws you a- another curveball, they said, "Oh, just kidding, you're gonna go to Russia."

Russel 11:31

Okay.

Kelly 11:32

So I went to Russia, and I had no Russian experience, um- Yeah or

Russel 11:37

understanding- Vodka, Sputnik. Yeah.

Kelly 11:39

Yeah.

Russel 11:39

That's the only two words I know in Russian.

Kelly 11:40

Those are the two you have?

Russel 11:42

Yeah.

Kelly 11:42

Yeah. I, I did, um, you know, I had a few months before I went, and, uh, I did, you know, try to learn a little bit, but honestly, by the time... I, I remember, you know, en route to Moscow, I had learned how to say, "Hi"- Mm and I learned how to say, "May I?" which are really helpful if you know nothing else.

Russel 12:06

Yeah.

Kelly 12:06

And I spent that weekend, I got off the plane, and I'm with this crew of Americans who are coming to Moscow for the first time, and we're immediately ushered to meet our families for the first, 10 weeks, that we're gonna live with, and they don't speak any English at all, and, you're gonna live with them for the next- Okay 10 weeks and learn some Russian. I did, point to everything, and it was like, "May I? May I? May I?" But by the end of it, I had been able to forge a number of relationships where, I'm still in touch with some of those folks- Yeah today. This has been, like, 25 years ago. But it was, it, it is a good example, though, of learning, not just about another language, but a- another culture, and I think, there's a, a parallel really between the two. You learn a lot about- a culture through language. But you need more than just a language to connect and understand, and if you grew up, when I did, that was such an opportunity because, of course, everything was Cold War. You know, all of our- Mm. Oh, yeah villains were Russian. And, anyway, I think that certainly helps with diplomacy. That's why the Peace Corps was brought to us back in the '60s in the first place. So it was really, it was an honor, but I think it also helped me build up my skill of- Being able to listen and to try to find common ground and to connect and exchange ideas, and that I think certainly helped me in my career later in life. At least as a whole person, if not for my career.

Russel 13:38

Well, for all the young folks out there listening, thinking about PR, communications, or even an agency in period, yeah, highly recommend the Peace Corps it sounds like, and, Absolutely you'll learn all the valuable skills you'll ever need to run an agency. And how do you say hi in Russian? I don't think I know how to say hi in Russian.

Kelly 13:55

Well, there's a, there's a hard way and an easy way. So formal, the formal way to say hello, so to someone you haven't met before- um, or just to, as a sign of respect, it would be zdravoozvatsya.

Russel 14:06

Okay. Yeah. Never- You can

Kelly 14:08

repeat after me

Russel 14:09

Zdra- zdravoozvatsya

Kelly 14:10

Zdravoozvatsya.

Russel 14:11

Zdravoozvatsya.

Kelly 14:12

Or you can say hi, which is privet.

Russel 14:15

Privet?

Kelly 14:17

Yeah. See?

Russel 14:17

Much easier

Kelly 14:17

Okay.

Russel 14:18

I feel like I've seen that one before. Maybe that would make more sense the casual version, but I never- I feel like I've never heard zdravoozvitsya, zdravoozvitsya.

Kelly 14:26

Zdravoozvitsya. Yeah,

Russel 14:27

yeah. All right. Well, we're- But

Kelly 14:29

that's okay. I'll tell you did a good job. Molodets.

Russel 14:32

Oh, thank you. And then I guess we have to, we have to learn your most common phrase, may I. What is may I?

Kelly 14:38

Mozhno.

Russel 14:39

Mozhno?

Kelly 14:40

Mozhno, yeah.

Russel 14:40

Mozhno. Yeah.

Kelly 14:42

Yeah.

Russel 14:42

Okay.

Kelly 14:42

Yep.

Russel 14:43

All right. You

Kelly 14:43

got it.

Russel 14:44

There we go. All right. I'm on my way. Russia, here I come.

Kelly 14:47

That'll be my next career. I'll do some tutoring on the side.

Russel 14:49

There you go. You can run a... You can do a small travel agency and go roam these countries some Well, okay, so that makes a lot of sense, creates the through line for your, um, who you're working for, who you might be inclined to do your work for. From a just service perspective, how you're showing up, what you're delivering, how did that evolve from maybe some of your early days to where you're at today?

Mission-Driven Work & Niche Focus

Kelly 15:12

I would say I have just continued to try to do more of what I enjoy, and I think a lot of what I'm learning about myself is that what I enjoy is not what everyone in public relations wants to do. So I have discovered that what I really enjoy doing are helping my clients who are in these mission-driven organizations, like cause organizations, nonprofits, public sector folks, really deal with difficult, complex change and problems, you know? So, for example, I was trying to think of some client profiles would be a group that's trying to just provide useful information, educate the public about something, but it's hard to be heard over just this unrelenting machine of misinformation. And so that's one. Or Trying to create a positive behavior change, but you're up against a history of, like, public distrust. A lot of times we're talking about struggling to deliver on promises. You know, they're trying in earnest to restore trust, but they're also dealing with a crushing bureaucracy and siloed departments and things like that. So they're, they tend to be complex issues, but they're certainly trying to create positive change. Mm-hmm. And so that tends to be where my wheelhouse is. I don't do a lot of publicity. We tend to be strategists in the boardroom trying to help navigate some of these difficult things. And so where I come to all this, I think that you have to have comms in the boardroom- And so often that's missing.

Russel 16:58

Yeah, you don't hear chief- And I guess it's- chief comms officer in, in too many, business circles.

Kelly 17:03

You're right. I- very often, you've got very important business decisions being made. And then comms is looked at a group to push out information as needed, and that is really amiss. And so, you know, s- I think a smart company or a smart mission dr- uh, driven organization really does need to put comms at the center of their strategy to be successful.

Russel 17:25

Yeah. But I mean, how do you navigate that then? I totally understand What you're saying. I think most agencies, whatever they do at the end of the day, they'd say, "Yeah, 'cause it's, it's very helpful for me to understand the overall context of what's going on in your business, and then filter that through the lens of what I'm ultimately gonna provide or do for you." So what have you found effective to say, "Yes, I need that seat to be effective for you and, and earn that seat"?

Kelly 17:52

Uh, you know, it's funny. I think that typically by the time someone comes to us, they know they need the assistance, because, a lot of times there's a lot of pressure, and they need some help navigating it. But they usually ask for the wrong things.

Russel 18:08

Hmm.

Kelly 18:08

You know, "We need someone to share this messaging," or... And we'll say- Hmm "Well," we'll, we'll s- ask why, or we'll say, "Have you thought of this?" And that usually leads to a more complex discussion. But sometimes it's not all crisis. I can tell you there's, uh, sometimes just not thinking about

Comms in the Boardroom

Kelly 18:28

it. So I had a client come to me and they said, "We have this strategic plan, and we would like for you to produce a video to launch our strategic plan." I said, "Great. Would you please send me your strategic plan so I can take a look at it?" And I did, and it was a very good strategic plan with very, specific goals and objectives, but there was no mechanism to cre- to, to communicate any of these things. So what I saw was something that was going to be shelved very quickly. It was a great plan, but in order for it to actually come to life and happen, you needed more than a video. You needed to have communications infrastructure to make those things happen. And so what we developed was a playbook, and we organized it so that, every work group at the center, like the very first thing you do is, A, make sure you have all the work groups you think you need. So we established a communications work group as well. But in each work group, they needed to have a charter. And if you didn't know how to write a charter, well, we also wrote how you could write a charter for your group so you understood what your responsibilities really were and how you were going to streamline your information and share information. And that's getting to breaking down those silos that I was talking about, so you're building communications infrastructure, infrastructure from the inside out. And so there is an element of if you build that kind of system, then you don't need to think of comms as just an external thing. It is really the result of that information exchange, of that cultural shift within the agency that helps you build relationships with your stakeholders, and it helps you ultimately tell your story in a more effective, impactful way.

Russel 20:19

Okay. Little tingling senses of thinking that's pretty cool when hearing you talk through that of, a couple things that I'm just hearing there is, one, and this is I think very common in the agency space, when clients come to you, they probably have the general, not absolute wrong idea, but a misguided idea of what's actually gonna solve the problem. And so can you take a step back, get them to see the problem differently, get them to see the solutions, potential solutions differently. And then more than once you're in that door, it's, it's to just walk 'em by the hand and show them the playbook it sounds like as you've created and, and then show that, yes, this is not an isolated thing, but this is how we weave that into the fabric of everything you do, which makes you probably- Yeah all the more valuable in that engagement and that relationship and that overall client dynamic.

Kelly 21:09

Well, it, it, it's one step closer to solving a very complex problem, right? Yeah. So I think that's where, it is the c- the client, like anybody else, it's just they don't know how to use communications. I mean, everybody should know how to communicate. We all speak English, right? We all under- you know, so it's like, okay, I understand how to communicate. I've been doing it my whole life. Well, of course you have, but there is an actual strategy behind it. And so it takes somebody who has that kind of training to come in and say, "I think I can help you connect some dots here that will make your life easier, and it will create the outcomes that you want to happen." So I do think that when you tap into somebody who is, a skilled communicator and they are not leveraged in this way, and they are actually just being asked to push information out in a press release or whatever, you're just not getting, you're not getting all of the talent. You're not getting all of what you could. Yeah. And, and it's honestly, when you think about how, we're in a trust deficit period, right? We're living in a time of deep, deep distrust. Um-

Russel 22:17

That's a great

Kelly 22:18

way to put

Russel 22:18

it

Kelly 22:19

right. So it's, you know, you have to think about how that impacts your bottom line because I assure you that it does. So whether you're in the world of mission-driven brands, which is my personal passion, um, business requires Building trust and building relationships. And so if you're treating public relations or communications as, really a mechanism to push information out, you're really missing the point, and I really feel strongly that it must be at the center of your strategy from the very, very start. So if it isn't- Yeah I highly recommend that you-

Russel 22:58

Call

Kelly 22:58

consider that.

Russel 22:59

If it isn't, call Kelly.

Kelly 23:01

Oh. You know, call, call your PR person, so

Russel 23:06

yeah. Yeah. It sounds crass, but it comes from a good place, and it reminds me what we talked a lot about in, in our agency, was just to put us in the frame of mind that when a client comes to us, we use this terminology. My apologies if there's any former clients listening out here. But we said, "The client is always wrong." And one, I think we were fighting the age-old notion that the customer is always right, but I think we were just setting ourselves up to say, "Look, we can't just be order takers. We have to assume that there is problems, that they're not seeing the picture fully, so that we can solve the problem at the root level." You, you have a nice, much better Communicator way of maybe saying that same thought process. But that's how that sounds- Sure in, in our own, my own- I'll give it to you agency experience.

Listen for the Wish

Kelly 23:48

I would, I would flip that to say, "Listen for the wish."

Russel 23:51

Listen for the wish. You know? Oh, look at that. There

Kelly 23:53

you go. What is it that the cl- But I'm serious. Like, underneath, you know, we need this, we need that, what is it that you really want to happen?

Russel 24:02

Yeah.

Kelly 24:03

And what are you really up against? So the next best question is what is keeping you up at night, right?

Russel 24:08

Mm-hmm.

Kelly 24:09

Because then you get into really understanding what those pressure points are. I... Certainly, we do plenty of research, and all of that is, integral to our success. But I think just those initial conversations about you can trust me with this, tell me what it is that you want, and there's a lot in the way of that. But I, I think that's where understanding that it's not always about pushing out information. There's a lot of different ways to use... But I don't expect, I don't expect my clients to know that. Yeah. Nobody seems to know that. So it's-

Russel 24:42

Yeah

Kelly 24:43

it's, we're learning together.

Russel 24:44

I don't know why this is coming to my brain now as you're sharing that, but it's just making me think of, right, there are movies or TV shows or media where the actors just say everything they're thinking and feeling and just use words to describe everything, and all right, that, that tells you information, but right, the really good scenes, the really good movies, actors, actresses, are the ones, like, they can tell you so much just from a stare or from a quiet moment or something, then that might be ways that companies can not naturally come to that idea of how c- but, I'll use less other things than words, but where can you find those opportunities? oh, is that, is that, like, too far of a stretch of an analogy or No,

Kelly 25:23

I think that, you know, that is where there is never one solution that's for anything, right? Yeah. So you have to understand what is going through the client's mind and what they're really worried about and what they think is... They may not realize that communications could be helpful, and also sometimes they think the opposite, that if we just had better communications, then my problem would go away.

Russel 25:48

Mm.

Kelly 25:49

And a lot of times it isn't a communications problem. You know? So I think, you know, that's something to listen for too. But, um, we do try to listen first and pick up on what's going on in the client's mind, and sometimes- Yeah it's easier to figure out.

Russel 26:07

Well, listen for the wish. I, I like this terminology. Listen for the wish. Okay. Well, and it really gets to the heart and I think this is the movement of the agency space that is, right, more outcome driven, not just showing up and doing the tasks or the whatever was asked for, too, that we could sell, but that we're responsible for the outcome, which I think just along the lines of what you're saying and doing in that context is we gotta look for the root problem, and we've just gotta be more open-minded about how we're gonna go about this because the clients aren't paying us to activity. They're paying us to achieve- Right their wish, if we wanna come back to that, and I just think that's just becoming table stakes or non-negotiable for agencies in today's era.

Kelly 26:51

Oh, yeah, a- and vanity metrics are, are just that, right? Mm-hmm. So I mean, I think that's the other part is to understand what it is that, obviously asking the client what success looks like, but being able to list specific objectives that you can point to and understand, are you even measuring the right thing, you know? We've noticed A lot of social en- social media engagement, for example, with a lot of the topics we deal with. I mean, we, we are in the center of a lot of controversial topics, so you might see very, very high levels of social media engagement, but that does not necessarily mean it is positive.

Russel 27:29

You can ask the, the so what, with what you're measuring and ultimately what you're delivering, the, the so what. What's it really matter? What are we really providing? Yeah that's a great reminder. Well, I don't know how much this relates to the question that's sort of been burning in, in my mind of, not to say that all marketing hasn't gone through a lot of transformation, but it seems like the concept of PR, I dare I say, I don't know, has gone maybe through the most transformation? Or just how has the world of PR evolved from when you started to where it is today?

The Trust Deficit & PR's Evolution

Kelly 28:05

I'd say PR is probably more important now than ever before, especially, I mean, every- you're waiting for me to say AI, so I'm just

Russel 28:14

gonna- No, I'm not. I'm not sitting here, so Sure I've, I just got back from an AI conference, let's be honest, right now at the moment, I'm just as I'm excited about what I'm gonna go do with it, uh, I'm tired of hearing those two letters for- I was- at least for today, so I'm perfectly fine with a conversation- I totally get that that doesn't talk about AI.

Kelly 28:30

That's fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, when I started my real, like, first job in public relations, I had a beeper, and I made... I'm telling you how old I am. Yeah. And I had, a red pen that would, go through the press release. I think we were still faxing press releases- Oh, yes. at the time. And so, yeah, I mean, obviously it's changed a lot, uh, since then. I think by the time I mean, I don't-- I think that certainly with all of the tools, I mean, that everything, marketing, public relations, it's all exploded. Um, but I say that PR has really become most important because of this trust deficit.

Russel 29:18

Yeah.

Kelly 29:19

And so when you think about how people go to find information out, you realize, like, especially when you're-- again, I, I feel like I'm mired in all kinds of controversial topics. People certainly use Google. They go to their ChatGPT, and if you do not have a communications system built for it, then who knows what they're gonna find. You have to have transparency, accountability, and consistency. And so if you are, you know, a big institution, you might show up very quickly, but you, chances are, unless you have comms in the boardroom, like I was saying, chances are you might show up inconsistently with, d- you know, conflicting information even online, and that is going to show up in these other places. And so I think that it's really important to step back and look at your communications as a system, and I do think that public relations professionals are very well poised to do that because they've had to think like that for a long time.

Russel 30:27

Yeah. I love this concept that you're bringing up of the trust deficit and, and it's so true. But, it's also making me think of, and I end up talking to a lot of owners, agency owners about this, of, look, if you don't fill the gaps with your team with training and the message and understanding about how to do your business, something else will, whether that's their past experience- Oh, yeah or outside information. But it sounds like that's the same approach you're taking with a company's communication is, look, you're gonna fill all the gaps so outside information doesn't destroy or take away or detract from the, the narrative and whatever ethos you're trying to put out there.

Kelly 31:03

You're absolutely right. And also all the tools, you know, whether we're talking about public relations or advertising or social media, whatever. All of those things need to be working together and, and in sync. And so yeah, I think, I, I definitely think that, uh, we are in this new evolving territory. It is exciting and terrifying at the same time. But I am convinced that the bots are not quite ready to take our jobs.

Russel 31:33

I'm with you in that camp. I think, I sent out a newsletter recently, and on the two sides of the coin, that AI is just another tool to the, a total AI takeover, slightly left of center towards it's a powerful tool. And look, it's just gonna require us to, us humans to be all the more human. And, um, and then if it really goes the other way, I think we've just got a lot of other different problems we're gonna have to worry about rather than my agency- Yeah uh, and how I'm gonna survive that.

Kelly 32:03

Yeah, yeah. Just don't forget how to think. I think if we lean on those tools too long, then, you know, you realize we all, we all look for the path of least resistance. Yeah. And, you know, ChatGPT lays out something that looks so right, and then you read it and you think, "That is-

Russel 32:17

Yeah. It's the smartest, dumbest- And

Kelly 32:18

even if it's right, it's-

Russel 32:19

Yeah it's

Kelly 32:19

vanilla.

Russel 32:20

Yeah. Yeah. It's the smartest, dumbest tool in the world. And, uh, I think I always knew this, but it's just coming out a lot more, right? It's, it's the aggregation of the mean of everything that's out there on the internet which we all know- Yep there's no, no shortage of slop out there. And so, yeah, I don't think I want that defining too much of my life anytime soon. No

Building a Senior Collective

Russel 32:38

I wanna move to something else that, it seems like has been a really powerful part of your journey is, uh, and it seems like you're intentional about this word- wording, senior team, and it seems like you've really surrounded yourself with your ideal A team of people you want to work with. How has that shaped your business and why is that- Yeah important to you and been effective for you?

Kelly 32:58

A- a- again, it's all by accident. But I'm

Russel 33:01

very lucky. I don't... I still don't, I'm still not gonna believe all this accident stuff. It's totally by accident. But, but go

Kelly 33:06

ahead. Go ahead and make your case. Uh, it started, uh, so I mean, I had been basically more or less a, a sole practitioner for many, many years and, you know, would bring in the, a freelancer or a partner, what have you. But I had been consulting, the Virginia Department of Health for my career. And so when COVID came, they called me and, I quickly found out that, one of my colleagues who owns, an ad agency here in town also, was contacted, but by the Department of Emergency Management. And- We had a working relationship, but our relationship was fused in this moment because that was the beginning of COVID, and we had no idea that over the next, what, six, seven years we would continue to, to work like this in lockstep. And that's been wonderful. During that time, I needed more help, and so I called the people I knew, and these were people who were, retiring. And so I started to hire my mentors. And so I have really the best brain trust because all of the people who basically taught me everything I know have come and are now working with me on, these projects. And so it's fulfilling. I learn a lot. Still, I feel like we are really enjoying our work together. So yeah, it's basically become this, this little collective of smart, very accomplished, public relations folks, and then me.

Russel 34:43

It's so fascinating. I mean, just you probably think of, when anybody thinks of hiring, right, the, the probably the just natural lens they go into is someone that knows less than them or more, junior talent or something like that, that you would be the mentor. But what a fascinating concept to go hire your, your mentors. That's such a great thought.

Kelly 35:03

It's probably the smartest thing I have- ever done, and it has made for a very rewarding work life. And you know, it's like I said, it's, it's really the two. It's, it's building this collective of very skilled, fascinating, I mean, fascinating people. I mean, my first boss I've got... I mean, honestly, like it's just been a, a really wonderful thing. But it's also the partnership, with the advertising agency I mentioned has also been, extremely rewarding and interesting, and it's taught me a lot about, and again, kinda going back to Peace Corps, being able to look at your, your own culture and your own experiences from another perspective. I guess in this case, I get to look at public relations from a different perspective entirely too. That is really rewarding. I think that has really made the work better, I would say. We've probably, as a result of all of those factors, I would say, very concretely that- over the past six years, probably the, the best work I've produced, or we've produced-

Russel 36:06

I can only imagine There's the rhetoric out there, hire, hire people smarter than you and let them do the work, but that's, that's taking that truly to heart. And love to see that for you. Well- Oh,

Kelly 36:17

thank

Russel 36:17

you as, as kinda start to put a close on it, I guess just how are you looking at the future of your business? What does success look like for you going forward? Tell us, tell us more about that.

Vision for the Future

Kelly 36:27

I mean, uh, it only recently did I put my stake in the ground to say it's going to be mission-driven brands heretofore, and so I am committed to that. I think, um, I felt like that for a very long time, and this colleague of mine said, "We don't sell soap," so we're really interested in focusing on this, uh, niche. It's a large niche but, uh, it's very fulfilling, and like I said, we're having a lot of fun doing it, so I think kind of like my business plan from the beginning is to just keep going as, as long as I still can. So that's, that's really, that's my plan and, um, I'm having a lot of fun along the way.

Russel 37:07

That's amazing. I love to see that in, in the wild, and it, it just highlights, what I always share with folks, and look, this is a hard I think an agency is a hard business of any type. And look, it, it has to be leading, all this hard work has to be leading towards the life you want, and, and you gotta enjoy the work, and you gotta enjoy the journey. And so if it's not doing that, find a way to make that happen. And so it's really cool to see that in the wild with, with your own journey, and looking forward to watching the next 15 years advance.

Kelly 37:38

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And it's been, it's been a pleasure. It's been fun kind of walking down memory lane and, and talking about it.

Russel 37:46

Yeah. So

Kelly 37:46

thank

Russel 37:46

you. You're most welcome. Well earned. Well, I have one last big question for you, Kelly. Okay. Are entrepreneurs born, or are they made?

Are Entrepreneurs Born or Made?

Kelly 37:55

I thought about this too, Russell. And I was trying to think of how I'd answer this. I have to say they're made. I, I think they're made. It's probably both, if I'm honest, but, most of the entrepreneurs I know were, were forced into it just like me, and when two when you're tossed into the ocean, sometimes you just gotta keep swimming.

Russel 38:13

Just keep swimming.

Kelly 38:13

That's what I'm doing.

Russel 38:14

There you go. All right. Well, the, the words of Dory ever present in our minds, uh, so maybe the most prolific advice ever from a cartoon. If people Want to know more about Vance, where can they go?

Kelly 38:27

They can go to vanceagency.com.

Russel 38:31

Easy enough. There we go. V-A-N-C-E, and, gosh, thank you so much, Kelly, for taking the time out of your day to share your amazing journey, ups, downs, but so many great just little, little phrases to take away, from listen to the wish and understanding the trust deficit and, just very unique thing of hiring your mentors. Just really appreciate you taking time to share all that with us today.

Kelly 38:56

Well, thank you so much for having me. It really has been a pleasure.

Russel 38:59

Likewise. Pleasure's all mine. Thank you for listening to An Agency Story podcast, where every story helps you write your own. Subscribe, share, and join us again for more real stories, lessons learned, and breakthroughs ahead. What's next? You'll want to visit anagencystory.com/podcast and follow us on Instagram @anagencystory for the latest updates.

Kelly 39:23

This is probably not what you're looking for. The only thing I could think of is I mentioned Trevor from way back when. I mean, I This is, this is a guy that, this is back in 2012, where we would work at my dining room table, and I remember saying something to him, something about how, you know, "I'm funny." And he says, "I know you think you're funny."

Russel 39:46

Ouch.

Kelly 39:47

And I always think about that. I was like, gosh, Trevor. Um, I don't know. What could I say about that? You gotta surround yourself with people who will be honest with you, so I guess that is, that is the example of humor. Uh, I get my own humor. I don't know if it always lands with everyone else.