The Joosi Sex Podcast

Pride, Throuples, & Swinging Couples: Adventures in Ethical Non-Monogamy

• Alisa Eddy • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Have you ever questioned whether you’re "gay enough" to claim your identity? Join my guest Carlie and I on the Joosi Sex Podcast as we challenge stereotypes about swingers and dive into the intricacies of bisexuality and open relationships. I share my personal struggle with sexual identity and the profound impact of living authentically. Discover the importance of being open about one's orientation and how it can positively transform your life.

Celebrate Pride with us as we recount the emotional journey of coming out. By sharing my own experiences of publicly acknowledging my bisexuality and the mixed reactions that followed, we highlight the complex dynamics of family and societal acceptance. Hear about the heartfelt reconciliation with a mother and the overwhelming support from those around me, illustrating the highs and lows of this transformative process.

Shifting gears, we explore ethical non-monogamy and the importance of honesty and openness in relationships. Through personal stories, we discuss the fluid nature of relationships, different forms of ethical non-monogamy, and the significance of creating safe spaces for self-expression. Unpack the misconceptions surrounding open and closed relationships and learn how personal fulfillment can come from diverse sources. This episode is a celebration of love in all its forms and the journey toward living a life true to oneself.

Speaker 1

I'm in an open relationship. My partner and I have defined our own thing that works for us, wherein, like we kind of like I don't know there's a lot of stereotypes about swingers and I don't know how much those? Of you who are listening are aware of those stereotypes.

Speaker 2

Well, the main one being it's all about sex.

Speaker 1

The main one being it's all about sex.

Speaker 2

That's the only. Thing.

Speaker 1

And and that's the only thing, and that that's the only thing and that it's very much about is transactional, and that it's uh, it's always a swap which means like that you trade partners and that that's like a hard swap, um, but really for me I feel like we fuck other people but we don't date other people, and so that's why I sort of identify a little bit more swinger and not as much polyam, but we definitely fuck our friends. Welcome to the Juicy Sex Podcast, where my friends and I have raw, unfiltered and hilarious conversations about all things sex. I'm Alisa Eddy, the founder and CEO of Juicy Sexual Wellness, where we try the toys and help you find the right one for you. Now on to the podcast. Hi, everybody, it's Pride Month, so last year we had a bisexual trisexual episode of the podcast and we talked a lot about bisexual pride. I shouldn't identify as bisexual because I am not quote-unquote gay enough to be bisexual fascinating to me, which is an interesting thing, right?

Speaker 1

yeah, because nobody told me. Nobody was like hey, you're not gay enough to call yourself bisexual. But this was something I told myself internally yeah, yeah, go, yeah, go on.

Speaker 2

That's very fascinating. I'm very curious about that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So this was all about not wanting to claim a marginalized identity where I felt like I had had the privilege of being able to fly under the radar with it, and so my idea, ethically, was that it wasn't right to claim that identity. However, upon further examination, when I knew I was going to have an episode about bisexuality, and I was like I I know that I'm technically not just technically, but definitely bisexual, and I was like what do I do? Do I call myself bisexual? Am I bisexual enough to call myself bisexual? Right? That was a big battle for me and I came to the conclusion that yes, I am, and a big part of that journey for me was realizing that I help no one by hiding it, that I help no one by hiding it.

Speaker 2

That is a really good point.

Speaker 1

No one, Nobody's helped by being like well, I'm kind of bisexual, but I'm going to pretend that I'm straight.

Speaker 2

Nobody's helped by that and I feel like it's just super, first of all, super, fascinating. I don't think it's necessarily like you have this there. Might you might feel like you have a duty, but it's like you have such an interesting personality, like mine, where it's like I would be executed for the way that I live as a bisexual person, right.

Speaker 1

So in truth, I am, of people who exist in that space is, or I for me, I came to the conclusion that that was not in the greater interest of what mattered to me. Let me tell you a story. I was really excited to buy a new clit-sucking toy. So I went to the world's largest online sex toy retailer and I found hundreds of options with no indication which ones are quality and which ones are right for me. So I had to make my best guess.

Speaker 1

I ordered the toy, got it in the mail, super excited to try it, and bummer, it's way too strong, even on the lowest setting. Turns out I can't even use it, and I wasted 80 bucks. So I throw it in my nightstand. And a couple months later I look to discover that it has actually melted into another sex toy in my nightstand. I was so mad I decided to start my own sex toy company, juicy. At Juicy, we sell a highly curated selection of body-safe sex toys and we test them so that we can give you all the deets about whether or not it's right for you, such as how strong or gentle it is, how loud is it and how easy is it to operate. So support this podcast and buy your next sex toy at GetJuicycom. That's G-E-T-J-O-O-S-Icom, getjuicycom.

Speaker 2

G-e-t-j-o-o-s-icom level, though, because it's this responsibility, you feel like you had to offer this information, to make a difference, which, by the way, commendable beyond words. But it's like. This is your experience and it's okay that it's hidden.

Speaker 2

It doesn't have to be a negative in my head that you don't share it right, yeah right, yeah, um and yeah and like they say a lot of people, like they say whoever it's, just when it's your time and you feel like it's right, and maybe that was the reasoning to push you to that's fantastic. Whatever gets you to be yourself and, as I have found for me, the more I've been myself, the more I've offered who I am, the more I have shared it. Yeah, the happier I have been, the more me I have been and the more inspired to be my best self.

Speaker 2

I have been able to be yeah, yeah, every single day.

Speaker 1

Totally.

Speaker 2

Otherwise it's just and again, without putting the negatives. It's not like negative to hide it, it's not even hiding. It's just maybe not ready and that's OK too.

Speaker 1

Totally okay to not be ready. I think for me I was ready. I just had sort of an intellectual barrier about it. That was happening and I also, in full honesty, when I was contemplating, like wow, I've been someone who people know is vaguely bisexual, like people who know me know that. Right, but then to talk about it on a podcast is like a permanent matter of record Right.

Speaker 2

It is.

Speaker 1

And that is a totally different level of coming out.

Speaker 2

Versus what.

Speaker 1

Versus just people, kind of knowing it about you. You know everybody.

Speaker 2

I feel like a lot of people are stuck in that, so it's pretty incredible and admirable, if I might say, that you would do it on such a public space A similar experience for me as well, so I can understand.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and I think one of the things that I, in full transparency, contemplated was a loss of privilege, of the status of being straight, and I really actually did think about that.

Speaker 2

It's a privilege to be straight.

Speaker 1

It's a privilege to be straight.

Speaker 2

Really.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Honestly, I really would love you to explain that to me.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. So I guess the idea of I you know, I meet the normal standards, I am the normal, what I'm supposed to be All of that privilege that I was able to just kind of live my life under However, it's not how I actually lived my life sexually, but it was how I lived my life socially Right.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

That I realized oh, I'm taking a bit of a risk here Like there are people that are going to feel differently about me because of this. There are friends I've had since high school that are going to feel differently about me because of this.

Speaker 2

If my family hears this, they're definitely going to feel differently about me, but I have a feeling you knew all those were going to occur and yet you still took the time to do it. And I feel like it's pretty incredible when people take that moment. They think about all those same things, right, and to consider yourself privileged to have hidden it is, I think. I don't know if it's necessary, because we all have that, we all experience. Everybody gets the ability to hide who they are because they don't say it.

Speaker 2

So to say it's privilege, I think is a far more common experience than I think you think. Yeah, it's, even I well, it's a guilt, in different ways for sure, for different people. But it's like seeing it that way is a fascinating experience that I guess I don't, I guess I can relate to actually, but all people right, you don't, you don't know till you know, until you release that information, yeah, and to see it as privilege to, to be able to hide, it is interesting to me it is.

Speaker 1

It is interesting. Yeah, and but that was definitely part of it. For me was being like oh, I'm giving up that privilege how do you, how do you feel about it now? Completely fine I know right totally good, yeah, fascinating, like I immediately was like oh well, that's like it now.

Speaker 2

Completely fine, I know right, totally good yeah.

Speaker 1

Fascinating, like I immediately was like oh well, that's like.

Speaker 2

Wasn't even like. Why did I do that?

Speaker 1

It's like a relief. It's like why didn't I say that forever ago, you know? And all my reasons suddenly felt kind of silly.

Speaker 2

While valid.

Speaker 1

Yeah, they were valid.

Speaker 2

Commonly quite silly at the time.

Speaker 1

But yeah, after the fact I was like, nah, that was a little bit silly.

Speaker 2

I think that just being open about that was the way to be Fear of the unknown and the reactions and the world that you grew up in and the things that you hid for so long from the situations, environments and people that you hid it from. Yeah, Not knowing how they're going to react is understandable.

Speaker 1

Totally Well, and I grew up in a super religious, super duper religious environment Baptist yeah so definitely had an idea of people thinking about you differently if you're not straight. Even though that no longer matched my values at all, it was inside of me as this, like relic.

Speaker 2

Oh my gosh. You know, but how cool is it that you had that realization and the ability and the bravery to actually just make the change anyway, yeah, and to just be like fuck it, I'm not going with the relic, fudge it, fuck it, yeah, sorry, fuck it yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1

So I'm curious how, in the spirit of Pride Month, how do you identify and what was your journey like?

Embracing LGBTQ+ Identity and Pride

Speaker 2

So I am bisexual. I it's one of those things where I always it's not necessarily new, but it's like had this pride. I don't know that I identify the same way as you do with like this privilege so much as just like, maybe this inherent. I need to have this moment, and maybe a lot of people feel that way too. I need to have this moment where I can come out and, to be honest, I don't just like I'm not going to delete that moment. That was so important for me and for people that I even know. But when was it? It was June, june 21st, 2020.

Speaker 2

On Facebook, and after just not wanting it to be whole conversations with individual people in my life and honestly, I kind of think everybody knew anyway, it's just I was lying in bed with my husband and I had my phone out and I said I think I'm gonna do it. He's like okay, like he, he knew he knows me Right, and so I I I typed out um, I am bisexual. Hashtag, this is me coming out. Uh, hashtag always have been Hashtag happy pride. And it took me like a minute and then I, as soon as I pressed post or send Colton, was like good job, babe, you did it Finally, because I mean it had been a conversation and a moment where I almost did it multiple times. Now, what that was met with was a good combination of a few things right.

Speaker 2

It was, oh my God, an epic amount of love, right? Just hundreds of likes and loves and people that I was working with at the time taking the time, even even at work, to be like, oh my God, so proud of you. It was. That was wonderful, and it's not overshadowed by the things I'm about to say, but it definitely is a competitive reality because, you know, we all tend to be like negative and focus on those things. It's one of those things I expected my personality to be like, prepared for those things, right? So epic amount of love.

Speaker 2

And then you know some bigotry and arrogance. So people from like high school were like, hey, so you're married. Essentially, why bother? And what are you guys? Just an open relationship right now, and that's an arrogance and that's fine. I think that's a lack of understanding and an experience or whatever. Arrogance doesn't have to be this just purposeful lack of information. I think arrogance can also come from just literally just not knowing and asking questions while to me sounding kind of stupid, yeah, yeah, understandable.

Speaker 2

And so, while I didn't feel the need to respond, I actually found those people with a lot of love to respond on my behalf for just epic amount of, and I followed it and I was like, wow, I don't think I have anything to say because to tears, was like supported Right. And then, thirdly, was like you can't really expect or require your parents to feel anything. They're going to have their own thoughts. And I was empathetic and ready to feel whatever they were ready to feel. But I still was so like surprised between my mom and my dad, so I texted them saying hey, I posted a thing, if you have questions, feel free to reach out.

Speaker 2

And my dad, on a conversation he's the first one to call, was like does it affect your marriage? Because, again, I'm married to my husband. And I was like, no, it actually adds to right, it makes me more me. And he was like okay, then, I love you. Oh, my God. Like well, almost had a tear there. Um, it made me so comfortable with who I was. And then I actually didn't hear from my mom all day, and I love her to death. We've moved on past this, but I'm sure she can understand this experience, which was she had said didn't respond all day, and I followed up. I was like, is it like hello, kind of thing. You know, I don't really understand the pomp circumstance. Of course, I already knew that and I wish you said nothing because she's embarrassed.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that was really hard that's, that's really hard it lasted years where we had this disdain relationship I had. It's not a difference in respect, um, and how she saw the world, um, while today I will say, just to kind of like quick close, that three years later she had been like you know what I actually understand. It was a whole conversation we had on the phone to tears both of us. It was an amazing conversation where she had said you know, I now understand that love and acceptance they have to go together in order to be reality and if, oh my God, what a moment. But in between and before then, it was really tough. It was pretty tough. You can see the variance in my experience just from doing it. It's still at the end of the day, like I said for you, I'm I'm sure it felt amazing to do this atlas off my shoulders yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1

And and I felt like I was finally like, um, like I was finally being honest about what team I'm on, like which everyone. The thing is, I've always been super like pro gay rights, pro lgbtq, so there's never a question about that in the first place. But, like, here's also why I'm on that team.

Speaker 2

Here's one of the reasons you know, appreciate the honesty of what you just said is that we just didn't pick a team anyway. Yeah, Right. Why should?

Speaker 1

we, we don't have to no. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Oh God, that was funny yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but I think, just being really clear, like this isn't just something that I support from afar, this is something that I live and I support it both up close in my own life and from afar. This is something that I live and I support it both up close in my own life and from afar, in all the ways that that I can yeah, it's.

Speaker 2

It's an incredible experience to finally feel like yourself and then suddenly feel less to others so even after all the trauma, whatever, it's nice to finally have people see it that are the most important to you and just not question it yeah, yeah, yeah it's it.

Speaker 1

It takes time to get there too, for a lot it does, it does and I think it's just for me the timing and everything. For me it was. It was a great thing to do. It turned out. It felt very good. Right away. I felt like why didn't I do this sooner?

Speaker 2

but also it happened when it was supposed to it did exactly.

Speaker 1

I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 2

Thank you, that's pretty incredible that you did it in the channel that you did so good job.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yeah, and I, and honestly I didn't even realize until I was about to do that episode that I wasn't out.

Speaker 2

Oh my gosh Interesting.

Speaker 1

I didn't even realize it, because you were so world and I was like, oh, but there's a label that does sort of belong to you that you have eschewed. And I was like, oh, we have something to think about.

Speaker 2

But it's cool that you kind of had that realization and you were already so far past it that you're like here's the thing.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it was a good experience for me and you know.

Speaker 2

Different for everybody. I'm sure there's a combination of both our worlds. That occurred for most people. I've seen videos, the whole thing, and it's just do it when you feel is right, right and it's OK. If you don't, I don't think hiding it is a problem.

Speaker 1

And it's not hiding You're right, it's not.

Speaker 1

It's not even about being ready, it's just like why, if you don't want to do it, if you want to, and about what feels right to you. So I think, like it might feel right to you to not say something, and it might feel right to you to say something and like that sense of like connecting to your own inner righteousness, about, like, what is right for you at that time yes, matters, and and because we live in a world where, like there's, there's still different like acceptances and and generations that accept different ways.

Speaker 2

For example, I never, I didn't tell my grandma, right, it wasn't something I actively needed to share, and that's just, I think, an intelligent move, emotionally intelligent understanding of what should and should, without changing the relationship you have. It didn't add value, right, yes, and I still got to still be myself.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yep. I think that there's like what is the positive impact and doing all that math for yourself, everybody's everybody's situation is different.

Speaker 2

I'm not good at math, but I'm good at that math, Definitely math. Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1

So I'm curious like how do you choose to celebrate pride?

Speaker 2

Yeah, so different ways.

Speaker 2

You know, over the years I am working in like corporate America, many different consulting firms and IT businesses, whatever.

Speaker 2

I have taken pretty great pride in establishing a number of the affinity groups and ERGs or employee resource groups, like the Pride plus and plus all like ally group, the other things aside, like women's groups, the book club group, the um philanthropy or fun whatever.

Exploring Ethical Non-Monogamy

Speaker 2

And with it came this privilege and and ability to find myself, especially with pride, organizing a collection of different community or social events um, educational or like advocacy opportunities for people whether they're just allies or not even involved or people that are actually in the community, and then volunteering, fundraising, whatever, anything that essentially raised awareness and invited people to join at the comfort that they are interested in, regardless of who they are, and and then support the LGBTQ pride, the whole the June month thing in their own way, right. So I, I I pride myself in being a leader in that, for wherever I am at, and with it I I would also add that at the end of the day, like you don't have to do anything right, you can do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but being supportive, I think, is just important yeah and so offering channels was basically.

Speaker 2

It is my yearly way of engaging with the humans around me and, whether I do it or not, I think that it's important that I share how I do it have a safe, trusted, comfortable place to be themselves is the most beautiful way that you could celebrate.

Speaker 1

I think that's awesome.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and I think for years, even before I was able or out, I just engaged in being in a space with the people that probably already knew who I was even without being out. It's kind of like you know, know, they knew, yeah, and just being myself and whatever that is at that time. And that's enough, more than enough.

Speaker 1

Yep, absolutely yeah, and so I think that's where I think that those are. All the ways are great. Celebrate Pride however you want. I also would encourage you to not just celebrate it by buying rainbow colored merchandise from Fortune 500. As pretty as it is, as pretty as it is, and we love it. And we talked earlier about these Pride rainbow colored Converse that they came out with this year that are just fucking gorgeous.

Speaker 2

They get us, though, come on, they get us.

Speaker 1

I was like they're perfect, they're like and they reflect on the rainbow, like, oh, they're so cute. But at the same time, I think that it's extra important to support LGBTQ businesses and to support nonprofits that support LGBTQ people during this time, and that that's even more important than buying rainbow stuff at Target.

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly Essentially be yourself, go out and enjoy the rainbow that is the world.

Speaker 1

Yes, exactly yes, especially during June. Yeah, so our main topic actually is not pride, however, it is ethical non-monogamy, from everything from polyamory to swinging, and we're going to talk more about all of that. I want to set intentions a little bit before we dive into that everything from polyamory to swinging, and we're going to talk more about all of that. I want to set intentions a little bit before we dive into that, which is to say, we are going to have an exploratory conversation between two people. We're going to talk about our unique experiences and thoughts and feelings, and we're probably going to get some things wrong.

Speaker 2

Or right or right or right. Irrelevant. Yeah, I like the conversation.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and that the whole point is to just make it safe enough to talk about tricky stuff, that we don't have to be so afraid of saying something not perfect, that we can't have the conversation. So we're going to have the conversation.

Speaker 2

I'm excited.

Speaker 1

And so if you identify as one of the things that we talk about today and we got you wrong, I'm so sorry. We love you, we'll fix it, or we'll you know.

Speaker 2

I hope they add to this.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I hope so too.

Speaker 2

They're invited. Oh my gosh, totally add. But also, we can't define everybody. We can just say our own experiences. We can only talk about our own experiences. That's all I can offer.

Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly, exactly so. We're going to make it safe to explore this rocky terrain together.

Speaker 2

Yes, Rocky terrain, I would say this wonderful mountain we chose to climb.

Speaker 1

This beautiful mountain. Yes, even when difficult it is people who either date or fuck more than one person, I say at a time, but I don't mean literally, I mean like that they're not monogamous, but they're honest about it in the ways that matter to the people in their lives. And so it's a pretty loosey-goosey definition, but that's kind of how I see the broader thing.

Speaker 2

Well, and I'm curious what you say when they're honest about it.

Speaker 1

So honest, just being that you're not intentionally deceitful. So some people don't there's. Don't ask, don't tell relationships there's all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2

Yeah, there's the military.

Speaker 1

There's places where you don't need to be telling people things. You know what or what not, but when it's a partnership, I think that you need to be honest with your partners about what you're doing.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

If you're doing things that are not inside of that relationship. So that's where the ethical part comes in for me.

Speaker 2

Yes, that's definitely, and honesty applies to the ethical Just like, yes, they go together.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, I can see that, yeah no-transcript either sexually, emotionally or extended Right.

Speaker 2

For me it's this interest and application in having a big heart.

Speaker 1

So and.

Speaker 2

I've always explained how I feel and I'm sure there's more to this that we can get into, but I have a big heart and it's it's not necessarily been to my benefit um, and a lot of love to give right yeah, yeah and like I love people, probably faster than they are comfortable saying it to me.

Speaker 2

It doesn't work. I don't need you to say it back, I'm just, that's just who I am, and I would say that it takes a combination of, like practice, right, um, doing the things, going through the motions and when I say pain, it's not necessarily pain, it's lessons where you couldn't have known, possibly beforehand, that it hurt you until you do. But the interest in talking about it after and learning from it and still going. So that pain which comes with persistence, so persisting past it. And then this panache, so persisting past it, and then this panache, right, still being yourself, being this interested, whole human that you are capable of loving so big and, in your own way, exploring the people, that you're with people, whether you're in a partnership or even if you're doing it solo, yeah, but E&M essentially is just, oh my gosh, I said it my way a little stylish in fact, but it's like everybody's so different still.

Speaker 2

It is so true, I was saying earlier, it's like EDM.

Speaker 1

There are as many categories of EDM as there are of.

Speaker 1

E&M. Yeah, it's a huge umbrella thing, I think for me. I think part of what's interesting about ethical non-monogamy is what got you there, and I think for me I was. I met my ex-husband when I was 20 years old and we were married. We were together for like five years before we got married and we were married for 10 years and that was a long ass fucking relationship and um I it was definitely not a sexual relationship for the end for a while I can relate yeah and um, I felt like my sexuality was being held hostage, because the only person I was allowed to fuck was somebody I didn't want to.

Speaker 2

So you took one for the team on his behalf, Basically that was how I felt. That's tough.

Speaker 1

It was tough, and when I left him I was like never again.

Speaker 2

Oh, my yeah.

Speaker 1

Absolutely never again. We're not doing that.

Speaker 2

Pretty damaging for your confidence Every action you took after yeah, I mean it was.

Speaker 1

it was something where I I had gotten to the point where I remember saying to a friend when I was still married, maybe like a year before we broke up I said I don't care honestly if I ever have sex again. And that was where, like, my sex drive was at that point, because the only person it was an option for me to have sex with was somebody that I was like really fucking angry with and really didn't want to have sex with, and that was being married.

Speaker 2

What an experience.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's quite an experience and it made me. After I left that arrangement I was like never again will any one person own my sexuality other than me?

Speaker 2

I All I can say is validate and understand and relate to feeling like this asexual person when you know you're not.

Speaker 1

You know you're not.

Speaker 2

You're absolutely fucking not. Yeah, you're not asexual, but you're almost forced. And it's not necessarily narcissistic so much as just like, is this what I am? But it's like you knew, no, no.

Speaker 1

It was so weird to me because I'm like this is not who I am. I don't understand why do I feel this way, but that was how I felt, and immediately, almost immediately, upon severing that commitment.

Speaker 2

And how many years total was that one again?

Speaker 1

It was a total of like 13 or 14 years. Almost immediately I was like, oh, I have a sex drive again.

Speaker 2

Oh wow, oh wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I can so relate to that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I guess in, in, and that's kind of like what led you to where you are now.

Speaker 1

It is. It led me to say so. When I started dating again, I was listing myself as, like, ethically non-monogamous on the dating apps, because I just was not interested in getting into that kind of a contract with somebody ever again.

Speaker 2

Contract.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it felt like a contract.

Speaker 2

Oh my gosh, what a good way to say that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it kind of did Okay, so I can relate to you super hard. So, near the end of my relationship. So I was with Colton for 10 years and towards the last half of it we were married for only a couple and engaged for a couple as well it ended up being somewhat sexless and you know, I'll be honest, one of the things that I received towards the end in addition to me working really hard and feeling like it was going well was I'm no longer attracted to you. Well, I'm so attracted to him. So it's this loss of I thought this is what I offer, this thought of who I am. So I can imagine the pain, just similarly to the indifference that he had and the focus that I had. But again, what led so back to your original question, like what led to the E&M side? I will actually go back in time and say you know what. It's actually a really good experience overall. I think it was highly educational and E&M.

Speaker 1

Honestly and I don't know if you agree it's not actually much of a term I ever used Me either.

Speaker 2

I never, I never, I don't identify as E&M I know, again, like I said earlier, a kind of umbrella. It really was more of an interest in and not even interest. It was just like let's go explore swinging Right. I he knew I was bisexual, I had came out pretty early, even before we even had any sort of sexual relationship.

Speaker 2

He knew what I was and it's this emotional intelligence that we had, this connection that we had, that he knew not necessarily what I required, but he knew that would make me more me Right, which I can appreciate and super adore in a person and a partner seeing in their partner and in me, for example for him, and super adore in a person and a partner seeing in their partner and in me, for example, for him. So really the start for me was this exploration in bisexuality in an open way, right, and being bisexual or being open in any fashion. While him being completely straight his whole life was, I think I had a more just, better understanding of what could be, whereas him being straight, a little bit more closed, while interested, less experienced, just in an emotional intelligence way or a growth way that allowed him to just have that and be okay with it. So I, interestingly, when he came to me randomly, I think about a year into our relationship, again about 10 years together, he said hey, I want to.

Speaker 2

I saw this swinger one, this swinger 101 night at club sapphire in tequila and I was like okay and it my interest was more like wow, you, you're taking such an interest in who I am. And it's not about swinging, it's about relating and seeing and just being myself with other people, right and people. Again, the misconception I'm sure you can see is this it's about sex.

Speaker 1

Right, right, it's not about sex, it's included. Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's a bonus, in fact, but it's about relating to people that see the world that you the way that you do yeah Right, not necessarily the exact same, but at least are intelligent enough to want to explore it together, each other, when it's either bad or good. So my exploration always had started with him, colton, and people always ask me like, oh, were you the one that asked? Like no, colton was interested and I was like, um, hell, yeah, let's do this. So we went to a Swinger 101 night and from there it evolved so to like having rules, to then dating people together, to dating couples, to dating individuals, to dating separately, to dating back again people together. It's just, it evolved so much and the rules disappeared and the emotional intelligence grew so much that, even through what I said earlier, which is this practice and panache and this pain, right, you're so interested in keeping it going.

Speaker 2

Yeah, right, and it felt it's felt so right and I felt like, in fact I always explain that first night where we went to Swinger 101. Well, I'm not a swinger, I don't identify that way and we can get into that it's.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It just felt like I was coming home.

Speaker 1

Yeah, oh, that's so nice yeah. Oh, I's so cool To the people that were emotionally intelligent and capable enough to experience the world in the way not the same, but interested in the same way of just being open and being okay if it's different from me. Yeah, that's where you know labels can be helpful and they can be harmful.

Speaker 2

Misunderstood, in fact.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and they can cause us to really like pigeonhole ourselves when it doesn't make sense. I know that for me, I don't identify as polyamorous or swinger um, but I'm closer to a swinger potentially, um, in that I'm in an open relationship um, my partner and I have defined our own thing that works for us, um, wherein like we, we, we kind of like, and I don't know. There's a lot of stereotypes about swingers and I don't know how much those?

Speaker 1

of you who are listening are aware of those stereotypes, but well, the main one being it's all about sex the main one being it's all about all, and that's the only thing and that that's the only thing and that it's very much about is transactional and that it's uh, it's always a swap which means like that you trade partners and that that's like a hard swap, um.

Speaker 1

But really for me I feel like we fuck other people but we don't date other people, and so that's why I sort of identify a little bit more swinger and not as much polyam, um, but we definitely fuck our friends. We don't just like it's not like something where so a lot of swingers in the traditional sense and I think it's probably just a generation before us have rules where, like, if you swing with each other, you can't contact each other ever again after that oh gosh, that's interesting yeah, there's some interesting rules.

Speaker 1

There's a lot of rules about like that.

Speaker 2

The men should never have anything to do with each other sexually and only the women should and there's some I think a lot of those stereotypes still exist as a general thought process and approach, but the reality tends to be a little different and a little bit more open, at least in today.

Speaker 1

I think people start there because they're scared.

Speaker 2

And that's just like that's what it is. Yeah, and then they explore and realize at least in my experience, similar it's. I just love the connection and it doesn't have to be that simple yeah we can dig deeper it doesn't have to be and like for us.

Speaker 1

We play with other people at parties and gatherings and we set our own roles literally day to day, like how do you feel about me hooking up with other people today? How do you feel about it? How do you feel about this person, that person, whatever? And that's how operate and it works really well for us because then we can adjust things based on our current security level as a couple or as individuals, even like if we have something going on. So that's how we personally operate and those are fun, in which case it usually ends up in group sex. It's not like a hard swap situation. It's like you have a whole extra, like four hands, a whole bunch of two mouths and a bunch of body parts that you can do all kinds of things with.

Speaker 1

There's no reason to be strict, Just boundaries right. Yeah, just whatever works for you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and so.

Speaker 1

But for everybody there, yeah, for everybody that's there. So you know, we don't really fit any definition that I've heard honestly Does anyone, though?

Speaker 2

Hold on, Does anyone? The beginning of this conversation started just like this which? Is how could you possibly simplify your and who you are with any topic fitness, how you want to do your life, how you're working to one article?

Speaker 2

right to one thing and it's because we're looking for that relatability, sure, but I think it limits us in our ability to explore who we are on our own without that it totally does, and I think it's like a huge relief when, when my partner and I are able to communicate with other people and be like here's our, our deal.

Speaker 1

We're, you know, we're open to all kinds of things. We don't want to go on dates, but we want to explore together and we are totally cool being friends afterward and potentially doing things again and and all that stuff. Yes, yeah, yeah. So it's like it's our own sort of thing. Um, but for us personally, a line has been that we don't. We don't date other people. So I'm curious, like what's your current style and arrangement?

Speaker 2

from. A lot of my experience was with Colton right. It was Mike's husband and late best friend, right, Wonderful human. We I learned so much from starting with all right, let's go on a date with one person together and then evolving to a right eventually and it's a big step to like rules and then growing from there. But fast forward, right, Getting separate. I found myself being less interested. It's not even like the experience I preferred with my person. Now today, if you think about it, because I am single, essentially right, I'm by myself or I have all this experience and I'm just me. So my current thought process is what makes me my best self and, after having been through a great number of years post-divorce and again, we love each other colton, wonderful human.

Speaker 2

Yeah, um, a lot of people in the world I think that might even hear this know who he was. Yeah, um, it's just dealing with that, with loss and all these things. Depression is a whole other, separate world and affects everything that we think about. But getting to this point in my life where I know myself enough, where I require being happy and happy can be different levels, but also making decisions and being around people and inviting people into my life and relating to humans that actually inspire me to be my best self is critical. So that's actually the baseline of every decision I make. So so, right now, when you say current style and arrangement, I'm actually in a throuple right now and it's, it's, it's, it's closed, and it's one of those things. It's one of those things where I think we'll talk about this in a minute. It's like how do? What do you do with that? Right, how to have?

Speaker 2

I struggle with, or have struggled, rather with, people thinking exactly or thinking about me and knowing who I am for me, on my behalf, saying you know what you know? Carly, I've always seen you in the swinger world Sure, a lot of people in the past. It's been nine years. I knew you all. You all saw me that way. But knowing me that way doesn't mean that's who I am now. So my arrangement now has actually been, while enjoyable for myself, a little bit of a struggle with relating to who I've been. So I've even heard the sentences of like oh, you're going to close off that relationship, carly. That's not going to be good for you, and I'm like you don't. I'm actually kind of sick of people telling me who I am and what I can do. My arrangement is again, like I said, what makes me happy, what makes me my best self and inspires me to work towards all those things that are up.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Right, I don't want to be depressed anymore. I'm sick of that. I've been through so much and it's hard for people to understand that. I think sometimes they might relate in their own way. And it's hard for people just initially from a surface level when they hear these things get it, especially when they know a Carly that's been an open, kind of fun checklist kind of gal.

Speaker 1

You know what? I 100% agree with you and I think that there is a little bit of a toxic attitude in the ethical, non-monogamy world that is open is always better, closed is toxic. There's this idea out there that that is the case and I can tell you there have been times when my relationship has been closed that I've been very happy that it was and it was the right thing for us, and I think that it is really fucking hypocritical.

Speaker 2

Unbelievable.

Speaker 1

To be telling people that they shouldn't judge you for not being monogamous and then judging people who are monogamous so here's the deal.

Speaker 2

First of all, fuck, yeah, right, okay, exactly my experience, when I say I'm so sick of it, comes from multiple. So I dated a female for 11 months, um, and monogamously. To most people's minds, right, as soon as I started it, they're like Carly, you've always been so good. You and Colton were always open. Why would you do that? You know what? Because this is what I'm going to fucking do. Yeah, and I feel so happy about it and this is, I'm in love and I want to do it Ended up not even being that closed.

Exploring Polyamory and Individual Expression

Speaker 2

We experienced things together. I'm all about. It's not about education. We just I do appreciate how on board she was with just exploring my friendship and loving me as I am, and people just thought you know what, carly, you shouldn't do that because that's not you. You know what. You don't know who the fuck I am. I don't know at any day what I am and I'm just going to go with again original point, with what feels, exactly what makes me happy and my best self Granted, right, it's not about the monogamy part failing, it's about narcissism and that relationship not being appropriate for me. Moving on. So again, end result to the previous question was like I'm in a throuple and it's closed, and I still have today, experienced people being like Carly. Why are you doing that?

Speaker 1

I'm like.

Speaker 2

I'm sorry, do you? Last time we talked was seven years ago and I don't. It's not judgment, but it's kind of it's odd to me for you to have such a strong opinion about who I am slash was, slash am at any moment. For you to not understand that I'm happy right now. Look at me.

Speaker 1

I'm.

Speaker 2

I'm. I'm experienced something that makes me my best self, and for me it's almost to tears, like how much better it is. It's not even like the relationship, it's just that it's me. I am my best self, finally. So it's silly to think you should say anything otherwise or make someone feel bad, and you can't necessarily make people feel things but like to insinuate that that's not who you are when I'm showing you exactly what I am.

Speaker 1

When you're saying this is what I have chosen, I'm happy. Just listen to me. Respect what I have chosen.

Speaker 2

Respect and hear me when I say I'm happy. Don't question it. Unless you're like my best friend, it's like but are you sure I'm like cool? Yeah, yeah, I am sure.

Speaker 1

It is fair for people who are close to you to be like, hey, hold on, I'm into that I just want to double check. That's cool, right, like that makes sense. And yet, at the same time, you have to respect what people want and need at the time, and I really. What I have seen in this world that I have chosen to be a part of, where there's a lot of people who are ethically non-monogamous in 100,000 different ways, is that everybody evolves, everybody is fluid, everybody it depends on.

Speaker 2

More than you think.

Speaker 1

Way more than you think. It depends on their situation and what's going on with them and what's going on with their partners and who their partners are and everything. And so I think there is a tendency to put non-monogamy on a pedestal like it's superior.

Speaker 2

This is where you are. That's it. You can't have anything else now. You can't have anything else.

Speaker 1

Anything else is less than or, which is not necessarily true. You said you're here, so that's all you can be, or it's your identity, right?

Speaker 2

That's so stupid. The identity is so much more flexible. It's ironic how we have this identity fluidity and it's like they can't, and as soon as we tell them something, no, that's it, yeah, why. And also there doesn't have to be them, just yeah, you guys also fluid and all that Like there's no either side. People are just that way.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yep, people are, and I think it's really important to. If you want people who are monogamous to respect people who are not, you have to also respect people who are monogamous, when you are not like.

Speaker 1

Oh my gosh yes, you just do. It's. The bottom fucking line is that we respect people's choices about their sex and their sexuality and, um, I think that's like hugely important. I I feel like so, I being that I'm not poly and that probably most of my friends are I think I feel like sometimes I feel judge, not because in my situation, not because my friends are judging me, but because I'm judging myself by what I think they're thinking, or whatever Projection yeah.

Speaker 1

Total projection, total projection, total projection. But like, really, I've thought about all this stuff a lot and for me, I just simply think that people who are poly have different needs than I have at this time in my life.

Speaker 2

Interesting Go on.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I personally do not have the fucking bandwidth for more than one romantic partnership. I just don't have it. I don't have it. It's not how I. Another thing even close to that, because it's a lot, and so I think for some people their needs are more in terms of multiple romantic partners and that they feel a sense of abundance from that. That I don't. I feel drained, the idea of it drains me and it may change at some other time in my life.

Speaker 1

May not heard some polyamorous people say is that being? And I'm not monogamous? Obviously I'm in an open relationship, but so many terms that being like not polyamorous is like expecting all your needs to be met by one person, and that's definitely not, there's only, there's only two options, obviously right, exactly that's that false dilemma.

Speaker 2

It's silly, right, it's the false, but I can understand the worry because, yeah, it's the, the projection of the insecurity. About that alone, right.

Speaker 1

Exactly and then. But for me I'm like, no, I have, like I have the most wonderful, robust group of friends and I feel very lucky to have them in my life and they support me emotionally in all these ways, and we also sometimes have sex, and so I don't feel like I'm asking for everything from anyone, but it's, it's just an interesting line that for me and my partner we figured out it just doesn't work for us to date other people.

Speaker 2

That honestly okay.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So interesting. Go back to the so you said. Polyamorous people have tended to say that they their experience was what exactly it was? What was it Expecting your needs to be met by one person?

Speaker 1

Well, I think that, and as we've discussed throughout this chat, it's that's such a absolute.

Speaker 2

That's not. That's not how everybody thinks. As someone who identifies not in a different, but not opposite, but a different, like I'm pretty polyamorous and even then I've still seen those type of polyam people that speak that way too, and it, that's okay. I don't. There's there's probably a million different versions like polyam a, b, c, d, e, f, g, whatever oh, there are a letter, yeah right it's the letter, yeah, for sure it's. Polyamory for me is your individual experience that allows you to feel at home yourself.

Speaker 2

like I said, your best self and at the end of the day, relate to people in a way that you're the most comfortable with. So, like when you're saying, like sexuality, right, you said you're more swingerside, yeah, right, I still think, just to speak to you and my experience in the past with that being a priority and that's where I started is it's still not necessarily about sex, it's about connection, yeah, relating and seeing each other. For the intelligent, emotionally capable people that we are Right, and then with that comes this just spark Right A lot of people. I mean, you don't lean into it when you're monogamous, necessarily, but whether you're a couple, individual or some sort of open individual, when you go into that world you feel so seen and validated on a different level that you're like, you can lean in and you can connect and you can go to a boat party, you can just have a potluck with them and their kids, you can just see each other.

Speaker 2

That is the most important part of polyamory to me is relating and just being yeah.

Speaker 1

Just being yeah.

Speaker 2

Again, sex, even in both worlds, still being the last thing. If you look on the internet, swinger is just all about sex, or at least forward with it. Yeah, I still just don't agree. I still can't agree with that. I think it's still about connection, feeling validated and relating on a level that makes you feel like yourself.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think for me the difference is for me, at this point in my life I like for sex. I have like a main partner who sex is very emotionally intimate with and I really like, outside of that, for sex to be playful and for it to be play. It's a form of play. To me it's adult play and so I don't want or seek that intimacy level outside of my primary partnership.

Speaker 2

I see that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and so I enjoy. It is connection, like I like connecting to people, but it's a very different spirit of connection.

Speaker 2

I can I understand that?

Speaker 1

yeah.

Speaker 2

I so even with and people can take this for what they want, right it. When I got divorced, people are like oh, it's because you were open it is nothing right to fucking do with that at all. Swear word necessary yeah.

Speaker 2

I just we just didn't make each other our best selves again. So, in that spirit, when we had an experience having a girlfriend, having a couple, having our own boyfriend and our own girlfriends whatever it might be, as long as it added to our relationship, it interested us in moving forward. That was a big piece of it and and I think I've shifted over the years with what I need I will say and I don't know if I mentioned this earlier so I'm again, I'm in a throuple, yeah, and I love it, and it happens to be closed, right. So, as with any status that I am, in there's some argument that that's not you, Carly.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you know what, who?

Speaker 2

how could you possibly know?

Speaker 2

it every day. Right, it can change and I can appreciate that. Who I am, how I experience life in the daily life and how I feel is better than even in the experiences I've had with past partners or individuals. So I've experienced both being with a partner and having each other to go play and I do appreciate what you said, which is the play partners and having play. I honestly there's a place for that. That's good fun. It doesn't take away from your interest in connection and building and even just like having regular events with people that you just want to be around that make you feel good about yourself. You can do that alone or with a partner.

Speaker 1

You can and I think it can be. To me the sense of sexual playfulness is like super central to my interest in any kind of sex outside of my primary relationship. It just needs to be playful and needs to be fun, needs to be lighthearted, and then I'm like all into it. But if it feels too serious or whatever, then like for me, I'm like oh, and while sometimes you can kind of work through those, it's just learning.

Speaker 2

Yeah Right, learning moment.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and also yeah, a learning moment, and also just like, ah, that's not what I want, and that's okay, and it's okay to not want that.

Speaker 2

It's pretty cool how long it takes to realize that too, though.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, the spirit in which and the experiences you have to have to know that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, I think. So. We had an interesting experience, my partner and I, where recently we were questioning again the idea like do we date other people? Is that something that we do?

Speaker 2

just like casually.

Speaker 1

No, like separately, Just to like separately, in a very casual sense, to like have sex. Do we go on dates with other people, which I would call a fuck date Aggressive.

Speaker 1

That's what I call it, just you know. But I thought about it a lot and I was like, you know, hmm, interesting, hmm, and for me, the real, the real issue was it felt like opening up to a type of emotional intimacy that I personally, and my partner personally, only want to have with one person, um, and that it just sort of goes down that road and I once again, you know, after questioning it and being like, is that something that we want to do? Do we want to do that? I don't know. It's time to time to question it right, was like nope, I don't want to do that, I'm not interested in that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that is so fascinating. I there's nothing that really can compare in my experiences to being with such a very important partner and the love of my life, essentially, and experiencing something that made us so amazing together that allowed us to experience people, know each other better, make those decisions. Like you know, this doesn't add. This is awkward. Sometimes we lead into the awkward and just kind of have sex?

Speaker 1

Yeah, for fun.

Speaker 2

It's a good time, and that's okay and it doesn't make us more swinger. It's just you know what. That's what we leaned into and made us kind of happy and playful that day. Playful, right, yeah. And there's ones that were like, wow, this is more serious and we should talk about it and it is awkward but we still want to go through it. And polyamory in this world, compersion, is essentially like you're turned on, it's not even sexual, it doesn't have to be sexual, you're interested and there's this joy, excitement in seeing your partner be so happy. So I do appreciate A that. Just because this is a large part of my experience Colton is involved in this is I got to see a lot of that when we got to that level where we did date separately. The joy and even the not so good experiences where he got to go date alone. It wasn't a good date. He got home to me and I was like it's okay, babe.

Speaker 1

It's okay, I'm here.

Speaker 2

So there's a joy in the pain and the joy that still adds to the relationship either way. Now compersion, while still incredible, there's so much complication the further you go where you date separately.

Speaker 1

Right, it's just, I wasn't there, so I don't know, right, yeah.

Speaker 2

So I can understand why there's a disinterest in it as well, and at the end of the day, the best experiences are when you do it together.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think for us that's been like. Our litmus test is always like do we feel like, whatever this experience is, whether it's something that's for just one of us, because we definitely will have sex with other people just one of us or just the other person, like it's not, we don't always have to do that together. But our big thing is does this like add to our connection or does this take away from our connection?

Navigating Personal Identity Evolution

Speaker 2

right, and that's kind of our litmus test at this point in time yeah, and I I think what's interesting is I've I've more recently experienced this level in several years of doing this alone, and it's not like I've changed in my understanding and experiences that you can't take that away. It's how do I apply it to this single life and how do I experience it and how do I understand myself now, yeah, and there's a lot to learn from it, and it comes with the people that be like oh, it's still not you, carly, again, still stick with that shit. But, yeah, like it.

Speaker 1

It's a very different experience and, um, I can appreciate it, yeah, and also struggle with it at times right, yeah, that's that's so interesting and that's such a good point is that navigating all of this in a couple versus navigating all of this more as a single unit is so different and so interesting and just like.

Speaker 2

And I don't have an answer. I don't know.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I've just I know, like I said earlier, what makes me happy, makes me feel like my best self and inspires me to just be more me. Yes, and, like I said, throuple, that happens to be what makes me feel my best right now.

Speaker 1

Yes, and.

Speaker 2

I love it Awesome.

Speaker 1

That's so awesome. That's how I feel about my current arrangement is like we're so fluid about it and we check in about it a lot and that this is what feels good and right, and it feels like it enhances our lives and we're like we're into it, like it enhances our lives and we're like we're into it. So I'm curious. In fact, this kind of touches on what we were talking about is like is being polyamorous who you are?

Speaker 2

as an identity or is it what you've chosen as a circumstance? Or it could be both, or it could be Neither. That's a great question. You know, I give myself the grace to rediscover versions of myself, right, and that losing myself and who I thought I was the first time and that had nothing to do with necessarily the lifestyle, but so much as just like getting a back injury and losing being a great bodybuilder at the time Rediscovering who I was was like, oh, you can do that and still be happy, right, you can also rediscover and still fail at the same time in my head.

Speaker 2

So to disappear, to come back and still keep going, I think, is the most important part, or at least it has been for me and the caveat is that it's still inspiring, like I said multiple times, the happiness and or at least a path towards it where you see a little light, if you think of like Beauty and the Beast, where she's going down the dark or light path. Right, it's not necessarily the dark is worse, but it's like, at least go that direction. Maybe it's more, I don't know, but yeah, it does. That kind of answer.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, I think, going toward what feels right for you and what aligns with you at the time, and I think the most important thing is like recognizing that it's going to shift over time.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and being okay with it is a whole other level of understanding that it takes time and probably multiple rediscoveries at the same time as losing yourself, and it's rough to feel like you've lost who you are. We put a lot of eggs in one basket because that's just who we feel like we're going to be forever, and the reality is that we just absolutely, absolutely won't right. We're so many things, we're so many different colors, and so realizing all those things takes so much time and it's going to take our entire lives. To see it that way it's true.

Speaker 1

I feel like it's something like um, maybe right now my favorite dessert is dolce de leche and maybe in a couple months it's going to be a molten chocolate lava cake, and maybe you know what I mean, and I, I, just I, I kind of like to think of it that way, like whatever is right for me is going to continue to evolve, and I don't think evolve might not even actually be the right word. It's going to shift.

Speaker 1

I don't think one is better than the other. I think they're just a better fit, or less of a good fit for who you are at the time.

Speaker 2

Like my mom said earlier in this is loving and accepting have to go together for either to be true, right yes, loving yourself for who you are and what happens, and accepting for whatever actually occurs, whether it's a different version, whether you lost something and it's over here now. They can't exist without each other. So seeing that for yourself, I think, is pretty critical to the future of being who you are.

Speaker 1

That's true. I think that you're right. I think you're onto something. Maybe, All right, awesome, all right. Well, thank you. We've been on for a while. We could talk forever. I know All day, but thank you so much for coming on and talking about this. I really appreciate it. It's been an awesome conversation.

Speaker 2

Really though.

Speaker 1

Yes, so good, all right, thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 1

All right, Bye y'all. No-transcript.