Welcome back to the interview room Here at Come with Casey. As always, I am your co-host, Dr. Casey Sanders. And I'm Carrie Sanders. And today we have another, as always, very special episode. Today we're talking about a non monogamy and to help us through all of the ins and outs and all these questions that we have about what it is and how to navigate it. We have with us Kelsey Eisenberg. Welcome to the show, Kelsey. Hey. All right, so before we get started, before we dive in, I'm gonna tell everybody a little something about you. So Kelsey is a community organizer, uh, a retired unicorn, which I loved reading that little bit right there. We're gonna talk about that more too. And, uh, the friend that you called asset is this normal. Kelsey has been studying sex and relationships since 2009 and has exclusively been non-exclusive since 2015. Um, she describes herself as a queer polyamorous, fem, a submissive switch, and a, a aspiring fuck, an aspiring relationship anarchist. She's an authentic intimacy coach who works with ethically non-monogamous folks to uncover unha and express their values, dreams, and desires so they can live their fantasies and create secure, authentic connections. Kelsey is the education chair for the Utah Polyamory Society, a student of the Sexual Health Alliance, and a Master of Social Work candidate. And. She likes cats. And you love
Kari:cats. That's
Kelsey:my favorite thing to read. So many bios.
Kari:I love this little quip. Everyone tells us we have cats and I'm like, I don't know what it is about this lifestyle and cats, but we all love
Kelsey:them. We all, well also after like the tongue twisty, you just need to be like, I'm a person. I don't know. Right.
Casey:Absolutely. Here's a little, here's a little extra something just to fucking throw into the, the ring here.
Kari:No, we are so happy to have you on. Uh, Polly is something that in my opinion, is vastly misunderstood. And so to have someone come in and just relay it out, tell us, explain it. Uh, we have been wanting this, our viewers have been wanting this. And again, thank you so much for taking your time to, to be on
our
Kelsey:show. Yeah, absolutely. I'm super excited to be here and I mean, I actually start asking like, How do y'all describe your relationship? Do you describe yourselves as ethically, non-monogamous, monogamous, opening? Like where are you guys in your journey?
Casey:I love that question because we have spent years on this at this point. Um, we, we always consider ourselves, whenever we're asked that question, we consider ourselves monogamish, um mm-hmm. So like partially open. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's like a slow burning flame. We had, whenever we first started kind of opening up a little bit, we, we dove in into one particular type of thing. Um, realized pretty quickly that that wasn't the way to do it. And so we took a large step back and then took time to start going over, uh, re like really, really diving into learning about more about boundaries, communication, opening up to each other mm-hmm. And being way more secure and who we are before we start becoming secure with other people.
Kari:Yeah. We've really been like diving into the concept of dating other couples now, and like how we want to start to engage. Uh, I think this is the most open that we've been, and it, it's, honestly, it's been a, a lot of fun. We really enjoy and just like how close it has made us too.
Kelsey:Awesome. I love
Casey:that. That is, that is probably one of our biggest ones. I like that you say that. Is that, uh, we've realized just how secure our connection has become in exploring all this because it forces us out of this shell and really makes us sit down and like, take a good look at each other and ourselves to figure out what's comfortable, what, you know, evokes emotion. Mm-hmm. What creates this need for more boundaries or which ones can we kind of change over time? And the conversations are always, uh, in our, in our, the way that we like to handle it in a non-judgmental, safe space. Mm-hmm. A good environment where we can say things that might make the other person feel uncomfortable and just navigate those emotions as they come up.
Kelsey:Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like the thing you are describing has so been my experience and my journey of polyamory where people are like, what's the best ethical non-monogamy? Is it the orgies? You know? And I'm
Kari:like, yeah, constant orgies. You know, like
Kelsey:the orgies are great, but like I had to learn how to really identify my. My values really how to sit with big feelings, how to communicate those big feelings to a partner without blame, right? Mm-hmm. And accusation, and it's, you are responsible to fix the fact that I hurt right now. Um, yeah. And like creating that intimacy, right? Like when we stop saying, Ooh, it's off limits to talk about our desires as they relate to other people. Mm-hmm. Actually, that allows us to bond and see each other and have more intimacy by sharing those things. And for me, I'm like, that's the gift of Polly, right? Like, I don't really give a shit whether or not I have eight hot dates a week. Um, like I've, I've done that phase. That was fun, you know, that was hot. Um, and the sex is great and having lots of connection in life is great. But like really being intimacy with myself and building intimacy with people in my life through having. Fewer limitations on what we can be honest about. Mm-hmm. Um, has been like the benefit for me. Um, and then also for me, like, and I don't know if you guys relate to this, but I walked around for such a long time feeling so much shame that I couldn't do relationships. Right? Yeah. Right. I always felt like in monogamy I felt like just the way I am, cuz I'm a person who I want like a really, really high degree of emotional intimacy with the folks in my life. And where like, if I'm excited about connection, this conversation, it feels the same thing as sexual attraction in my body. Right? Um, yes. And so in the context of monogamy, whether or not I was actually fucking anyone else, I felt like every interaction had with somebody else was inappropriate. And so I walked around with all this shame of like, why can't I fucking do this? Right? Like, there's something wrong with me. I'm a slut. Yeah. I can't, you know, I can't, you're out. How to like do this monogamous thing, right? And if I could only be a good girl in this good relationship that my community supports and get it together and figure it out. And I, I was so filled with shame and also really lonely and isolated. Cause I felt, well, I guess I can't have any relationships except for my partnership. Right? And we're really not meant to have no friendships, no connections outside of partnership. But I felt like I couldn't cause it was inappropriate. Mm-hmm. And so for me, embrace like just saying, you know what? Fuck it. Like, I'm never making a monogamous commitment again. And I was terrified that that meant I would be alone for the rest of my life, right? Mm-hmm. But I'm like, I'd rather be alone than continue to, to be in relationships where I'm hurting people because oh, that I really don't want monogamy. I'm dating these monogamous people and hoping that one day they'll chain open up. Right? And so I'm hurting people and I'm like living so inauthentically and so filled with shame all the time, and I just can't fucking, like, I'd rather be alone. Fuck it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No,
Kari:I love that you say that. That's super relatable. Um, and that's even really relatable for me personally. And I don't think I've had, you're saying out loud what I have felt in my head so many times, or it was like, what's wrong with me? Why am I. Wanting to talk to other people. Why am I wanting to engage? Why can I have it in my head that, no, this is the one thing for me. And I think that that was a, a really big moment for, for him. And I was, yeah, for sure. I mean, we joke that I'm a siren. We're like, oh, but like, but in, but it's true. And so to be so stuck to like one concept and not being able to share your thoughts and emotions with other people, like it did, it made me have guilt. It made me feel like I was in the wrong when instead. It was just that we needed that opportunity to grow and understand and him see where I was coming from. And then I, it was crazy when I came to him about it, thinking I was gonna be met with shame. I was met with like, thank you, thank you for telling me this. Now we can actually grow as a relationship. And from that moment we have, and I mean, that's almost what, like kickstarted all of this Yeah. For us was being able to share how we felt and not have that shame. Yeah.
Casey:It's, well, it's the, it's the like core value, right? That we have grown up in a place where we're told, go into the box, get in this box, here's your monog box, monogamy. You must find the one person and they're gonna be your soulmate and you're going to marry them, and you're gonna just be with each other. And there's not gonna be any relationships outside of that. So diving into the study of like relationships as a whole, um, how they develop the different types that there are and what they can mean for a person. Developed within me a core philosophy of as long as we're honest and open about it, then we can have the discussion discussion's. Not always gonna be great of like, yes, let's dive into this and do all these things. But having the discussion and opening up in in that safe way creates so much more of a connection and allows you to, to navigate and build your own box for your relationship and not worry about all the fucking other stuff that's out there telling you to do things in a certain way. You can just create your own. Mm-hmm.
Kelsey:Totally. Well, and I love that you've really cultivated that. Thank you. Right. I think sometimes when we're communicating in relationships, when our partner comes to us with a hard. With something hard, right? And it triggers big feelings in us. We're so like in our reaction that sometimes we fail to see like, oh, this person who I love sitting across from me to be super fucking brave to tell me something that they felt shame about, that they were afraid that was going to trigger big feelings in me. And they trust and love me enough and respect our relationship enough to believe that his container can hold that. And so like I really try to focus on cultivating like, yeah, it's okay for me to have big feelings about what my partner says and where's the thank you? You know, like, mm-hmm. Can I say thank you for being so brave and thank you for loving me and trusting me. And notice that like they're probably having a big feeling too, and we can create space for those things. Things to exist.
Casey:Yeah. See what that does. See what that does. It creates like all this good stuff. Well, okay, so then, I mean, I guess we can go over right with the question then. Mm-hmm. Of we can define ethical non-monogamy for any person. I, I wanna hear it in your words about like what your experience has been. What have you come to know as ethical non-monogamy, and where does it fit in your life?
Kelsey:Yeah, I mean, I can talk about my experience, I can also sort of give the, the general like sex educator answer to that. Mm-hmm. Right. You know, and so I think of ethical non-monogamy as a really big, broad umbrella term mm-hmm. For constructing relationship commitments and agreements, um, that are outside of a monogamous framework. That are based on honesty and honor the needs and desires of the individuals making the commitments. Um, and so under there is like swinging is polyamory is mm-hmm. Monogamish where, you know, maybe sometimes we have a special guest star. Sometimes we hire a sex worker to have a threesome with or is, um, you know, parallel polyamory where we both have separate partners that never, no one ever gets to meet and we kind of date on the side. Or is blended families where we're trying to meet other folks or other couples to raise children in a multi adult household with, or, you know, there's so many different types of relationships with within ethical non-monogamy. And so when people are like, Ooh, we maybe wanna open, um, often the first advice I give them is like, There's not one way to do this. Right. Um, so most, most couples, um, or many, many couples who are newly open are like, we wanna be polyamorous and in a triad. And I'm like, they're like 17 million ways to do ethical non-monogamy that aren't that. Um, and so like maybe look at what that might look like, right? Like yeah. Is what you really want to just like, explore having sex with other people. Well, it's gonna be a lot easier to do that going to like a swinger's club or an organized sex party than it is. So maybe we start there, right? Maybe like, yeah, what's your why? And figure out, you know, what is it you're really trying to get at least right now. Um, cuz oftentimes people like choose the hardest path forward in right, in poly or in ethical non monogamy. So for me personally, um, I did not arrive at polyamory partnered. I was a 25 year old bisexual single lady. Um, so I was very popular when I got here. I bet. And, and so my first non-monogamous relationship was, um, a Kinky DS dynamic with a couple I was, I, it was a triad. Um, and I've had since then, so many different types of relation. Mm-hmm. Um, I've lived in poly households with folks that were, You know, beloved friends, non-sexual, but romantic partners and the person with whom I was legally married. Right. I've had all sorts of types of poly configurations in my journey. Um, and like today, where I'm really at is I'm like building community, right? So, um, I love sex, I love dating, but I'm really like, Ooh, I really post pandemic. I'm like, I need people who are gonna like, stick around. Like, I'm so very focused on friendship and community building right now. Mm-hmm. So I have an anchor partner that I live with. Um, Who I just fucking adore. And I have someone else in my life that I've been dating for about a year and a half who's real sweetie. And then I'm just like rebuilding community post pandemic when we got so isolated from each other. Yeah. Um, and I identify today a little more with relationship anarchy, um, than, than any sort of other framework of non-monogamy. Um, so like the only rule in my relationships is like promise to tell the truth and mm-hmm. When I lie to you, I promise to tell you the truth about having lied to you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so. And not everyone needs to do non-monogamy the way that I, right. So if you're like listening to this out being like, I need rules. Cool. Like, if that
works
Casey:for you. Right. Find, find out the way that works best for you. Yes. Ab absolutely. So then did you have, you were talking about like all these different types of relationships that you've experienced. How did you feel, or like, I, I hate to do like, comparison of one to the next, but like the hierarchy of a relationship. You talked about being in a DS lifestyle with another couple. Did you find that that dynamic of potentially having like, uh, the hierarchy of maybe having like a couple up here with them viewing you as either, uh, subservient or, uh, a level below do, how did, how did that affect you versus the other types of relationships that you've been in?
Kelsey:Yeah, I mean, I was just, Ryan, my partner, my nesting partner's name is Ryan. I'll probably talk to him, talk about him a lot. Um, You know, the thing about triads that people often don't think about is the power dynamic and the power differential. And it doesn't matter if it's a DS triad or not. Mm-hmm. Um, and oftentimes there are all of these myths people have or these ideas people have about what a triad is going to control for. So if we date as a couple, um, we won't feel jealous, right? We'll be, we'll be sharing it to, we'll be sharing this experience and so that precludes us from every ever feeling jealousy, right? Um, and then all of a sudden you're watching your partner fall in love with someone or fall in, like with someone, or fuck someone right in front of you. Like, holy, should I feel jealous? But this wasn't, it's a. So I think people walk into triads with a lot of ideas about like why it's gonna be the easiest relationship configuration to find out. That's a really fucking hard relationship configuration. It's, yeah, it, it
Kari:absolutely is. I always te say like, you don't take three people to six flags for a reason, like, You know, it just doesn't work. And so where it can be a lot of fun, sometimes it's harder to maneuver and it's harder to, to make sure that those three individuals are kind of on that same page. Cuz yes, jealous is going to happen. Yeah. Um, and, and in it, it's, it's just so funny that you say that because yeah, that's something that we have both kind of noticed too. We're like, you know, three is actually a little bit more hard than it would be to even just to to date a couple or, you know, however it is. But yeah, this whole like triad concept is what everyone assumes to me. Polly is, and we're like, no,
Kelsey:it's not, it's not really
Casey:that. It's something we've seen so damn much is that, especially as we like peruse apps like field or any of these, these poly style apps. Just the, the sheer amount of people and it's like, A single, a couple where it is a straight male and a bisexual female and they're looking to bring a third into the bedroom and they're looking to spoil someone. And they're, and I, that peaks my interest so much because I personally feel that it stems from insecurities from one or more parties within the relationship who they've thought about the fantasy of opening up a little bit, maybe having a threesome, but they're like, no, and I need, I need to feel secure. And they go into this assumption that bringing someone in, uh, that would be a bisexual female into their heteronormative relationship is going to be the thing that like works well for them. And they'll quickly realize that that's not going to be maybe the best way to do it.
Kari:Which, and all honestly perfectly leads to the question that we're gonna ask you is how would a couple know when they're ready to like embark into this lifestyle? Like, what would be some tips to give couples to be like, Hey, don't try it unless you
Kelsey:know, Yeah, I mean, I, I have like 10 million thoughts. I'm gonna scatter shot. Good. And you, it's fine. You guys can, can cut me off wherever. I mean on the, like, threes really hard and, and sort of these. And, and this is very, again, like all sorts of people are non-monogamous, right? So it's not just heterosexual couples, but, right. Mm-hmm. But it's very common. Heterosexual couples wanting to open their relationship, you know, or wanting to have a threesome and, and they're on field. And it's like, you know, I, I sort of talk to people about realistic expectations cause people get so frustrated, right? I, I see, I moderate a Facebook group that has 3,700 members, right? So I like see the constant, like, I can't meet anybody. We, we wanna ha we want to have a triad. And like, why aren't people just lining up around the block? Right? Where are they? Yeah. Yeah. If you wanna have a threesome, like patience, right? Like mm-hmm. Like, this is the thing that, and this speaks to sort of your question of like, how do people know, like slow down, be patient, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and if you wanna have like a three-way in the next week with a bisexual female, third hire an escort. I promise it's gonna be a really hot three, three-way, right? Like, yeah. Like it's gonna be her full-time job. She's gonna know how to do that thing. She's gonna know how to walk you through that experience. Right. And it will show up like that. But yeah, if you want to take the dating online route or meeting, you know, meeting folks in the wild route, you've gotta be a little bit patient. Yeah. Um, and the other part of that is like, like cultivating that patience is a good thing. Cuz another thing I see really commonly in polyamory and experienced as that corn is people are just like, oh. You're a bisexual single woman. And I'm like, yes. And there are many other features about my personality. Like I'm also a huge pain in the ass. Like, do
Kari:you wanna sign up
Casey:for that? You know, you dunno what you're getting into. Yeah. Right. And so step away from the shiny object and like, let's take a, a larger look at what's going on here, ex.
Kelsey:So you hear a lot of people who've like been doing ethical non-monogamy for a while. Like, you hear this saying like, just because we can doesn't mean we should. Yeah. Right. It's like, just because we're both interested in non-monogamy, just because on the surface it feels like, you know, maybe it could be a fit. There are all of these levels of compatibility under there and so like slow down and be a little bit gentle and not so hard. Right? Because we're like, I wanna try it. We finally have conversation. We're fi like, it's like. Okay. Take a breath. Yes, ma'am.
Casey:Yes, absolutely. 100% agree with that. We've seen, seen, yeah, because
Kari:we, we dove in and that was wrong and, and then, and now we are going about it a much slower way. Yeah. But it feels right because through every step of the way we've communicated it. We've talked about it. Yeah. You know, it'll be like, oh, you're chatting with that girl. Awesome. I'm chatting with this dude. But we keep that communication open. So then that way, if. Any of like, insecurities might come up. We bring that up. Yeah. Um, yeah, and, and I will say we have gone about it a lot slower this time. And so I love that you say that because we have been on the opposite end of diving in, and then it was just, it really wasn't the best for, for every person involved. Mm-hmm. And, and so yeah, I love the, just take a deep breath and, and if you can't, and if you're like, no, I need it now, a sex worker, that's such a good idea. Damn, that's such a good idea. I wish I would've thought about that. I have clients telling me, asking me all the time and I'm like, fuck, I don't know. Give it time. But that's such a good idea because you're right, that's their job, so not they're gonna be able to like, set it up, you know? They, they know what kind of needs to happen. I mean, if you're experiencing your first threesome, we don't know what you're doing. And so to kind of have someone instruct you, uh, I love that advice.
Kelsey:Yeah. I mean, the other thing is, again, like four couples opening sometimes we're so laser focused on. Our fears, right? Yeah. Afraid I'm gonna feel jealous. I'm afraid this is gonna destabilize our connection. Mm-hmm. I'm afraid. I'm afraid, I'm afraid. And that we kind of fail to see, you know, our emotions get so big that we fail to see the people on the other side of us. And so you asked like what was it like being on the other side of that power dynamic? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it felt really lonely, right? Like, I'm dating these two people who have two, who have eight years of history, who are like so in love with each other and they're building with me. And so that level of love and knowing isn't appropriate for someone you've been dating for six weeks. Right? But like being around that for me could feel lonely. And then there's this risk differential. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where like I knew that if the relationship between the three of us didn't work, I like, I'm the one who leaves alone. Yeah, yeah. Right. And, and it's not that that's like a good thing, a bad thing, a new that's, that was just the fact of it. But sometimes I feel like couples are like, well we need to do all of this to protect us. And, you know, the people we date will never be able to spend time with us individually. And that's reasonable. And, and it's like you get to have whatever limits or boundaries you wanna have, it's totally fine. But remember there's a real human being interacting with you on the other side of that. Mm-hmm. And so it's very likely no one's going to say to you like that you're gonna have a really hard time finding someone who's going to feel like their needs and desires are being met. If your entire relationship is constructed around making sure nothing changes. In your existing dynamic, which definitionally has to change cuz your existing dynamic was monogamous and now it's not. Mm-hmm.
Casey:Right? Yes. Yes. See, God, I love hearing that.
Kari:It just, it, I'm taking my own notes right now. Right now
Casey:actually. Nowadays it's, it's something that so many people don't think about because Yeah. Especially, and I'll go, I will go man brain on this one is you talk to someone that's like, oh man, I'm gonna have a threesome with my wife. There's gonna be another girl there. It's gonna be amazing. And they fail to recognize that these are people that you're dealing with. Mm-hmm. They get caught up in just the fantasy of it and they start to objectify the other person. And so now they're looking at'em and just seeing it as them fulfilling their own fantasy versus actually building a connection with someone and creating something that is a relationship. Mm-hmm. Because even if it's just sex, even if it's just like a hookup culture kind of thing, it's still a relationship. On any level. So
Kari:just the fact it's still an intimate moment that you're sharing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I mean, like you were saying earlier, like, yes, I'm a single woman that's bisexual, but I also like cats and I also, you know, like, so I I, and I love that you're saying it too, because again, it, it is pulling that person out from being almost like they're toy, they're, you're not their, they're not your toy, they're not your, like, couple's play thing. Like they, they are a person. And so to, but also that's what I love the most about it is not the toy thing, but the actual, the connection, the bond that we then three share. And, and that was something that was probably my favorite thing when we've engaged with other individuals is just this fun playfulness that, that we can all have. And so there's a lot of fun that can be done as long as like what you're saying, making sure that you're having these check-ins, you're making sure that everyone is feeling in a part of the relationship and the connection that y'all are growing
Kelsey:together. Right. And, and the exact thing you're saying of like, and create, create a more honest container. Mm-hmm. If like the thing you're really interested in is a hot hookup where you're gonna be really attentive in the moment, but you wanna preserve every other aspect of your relationship and keep that really compartmentalized. Hiring a sex worker, organized swinging. Mm-hmm. Going to play parties where those containers exist really for that play. And then you're away from it afterwards. And I think sometimes, you know, people come to non-monogamy with our cultural baggage, right. Which is like, it's not okay for me to desire just sex, so I have to desire a relationship as well. And it's like, it's okay to just desire sex, but you're gonna hurt a lot of people if you say, oh no, I'm not looking for sex, I'm looking for love. Mm-hmm. Thing you've created space for that. Is sex,
Casey:right? Yes. Right. That's why we discussed the ethical side of that. Why it's ethical non monogamy. Right? Yep. Doing some with enthusiastic consent, cuz that was a conversation me and Carrie were having this morning about the difference between things like, uh, non-monogamy and ethical, no monogamy, and what's differentiates infidelity from ethical, no monogamy. Mm-hmm. And, and it all does boil down to those very things. Are you going out and finding somebody and saying, Hey, listen, no, I feel this strange way about you, and you're doing all these like lines on them and making them, putting'em into a false security thinking that they're developing a relationship with you and then you sleep with them and do the same thing that has been going on for thousands of years with a lot of, you know, hookup culture and it's tricking people and to, to get what you want.
Kelsey:Yeah. Where I'm like, and that's where kind of the un shaming stuff comes in from is like, we ha it's, we've developed all these adaptations right, in order to get our needs met. Um, because for a lot of us telling the truth about like what our desires are mm-hmm. Is too fucking risky. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. So it's not like we're, you know, I, I am of the opinion, like, first of all, people are assholes, right? Just because someone says they're poly doesn't mean they're not a fucking asshole. Right. You knowing no such thing as safety in community. Right. And so when we claim our communities are safe spaces, we're setting people up to be harmed. So like mm-hmm. Please, you know, don't, don't be so excited about finding kinky folks or poly folks that you assume that they're good people because they're, they're shitty assholes everywhere. Also, I think most of us are like doing the best we can, you know, I, yeah. And, and have grown up in an incredibly sex negative culture. And so to expect that people, you know, a hundred percent of the time are like really great at communicating their sexual needs and desires and truth. Um, You know, we kind of adapt all of these other ways of going about it to get our needs met. Um, and it takes a long time to unlearn that shit and a lot of safety. Right? Like you guys are unlearning it in your safe, healthy relationship with two people are super educated about sex and relationships. Like I'm unlearning it in my safe, healthy relationship mm-hmm. As somebody who's been studying sex relationship for years and years and thought I was a fucking good communicator, you
Casey:know? Yep.
Kelsey:Um, so it's like, it's not easy. It's not easy to get to this place of like, um, so we have to like, have a little bit of patience, fall tolerance with each other too. Yep. Um, cause you're gonna fuck it up, right? Yeah. Like to your, to your question of like, how do people know when they're ready? Like, I can get, you know, I wrote out a whole like last night of, of tips for, for folks, but also the truth is like, you're never ready. You're gonna, you're gonna learn from your. Successes, you're gonna learn from your failures. Mm-hmm. You're gonna think like, you know, if my partner does our secret handshake with somebody else, I'm never gonna be able to survive that. And that thing's gonna happen. You're gonna be like, oh yeah, that didn't bother me at all. And then you're gonna find out that your partner listened to Taylor Swift in the car with somebody else, and you're gonna like, Loose fucking mind. Right? Yeah.
Casey:I love that. I love having that. We've had that conversation with so many of our friends who ask us questions about opening up, and they're, and one of the big things that we tell'em, they're like, listen, what you're not gonna be prepared for is the small little things that you didn't realize we're gonna bother you as much as they do. And not, it's not always gonna be something that maybe happens in the bedroom. It's not always gonna be something sexual. It could be something where it's, you know, everybody's in a conversation and your partner does something and you see it and you go, whoa, you
Kelsey:did that to me. That's, that's,
Kari:that was
Casey:my thing. I didn't know that I was gonna bother me and it bothers me and we need to talk about it. And so dealing with that level of it, I'm so glad you bring that up, because we talk about that to people all the time. That it's just those,
Kari:it's those little things. Yeah. It's never what you think it's gonna be. Yeah. You know? Um. Mm-hmm. But again, uh, we communicate that though, and that's the biggest thing, like with anyone that's looking to dive into this lifestyle. My advice is just to be open with your partner. Tell them what you want. Yeah. And then communicate that shit every single day.
Casey:It's that concept of fucking up freely.
Kelsey:Exactly.
Kari:Yeah. Cuz I mean, we're going to
Kelsey:Totally. And, and it really drives home the point of like, you know, we're, I have a saying like, we're nervous systems that tell stories. Yep. Right. So we can have all of these stories about what's gonna happen or what did happen and what it means. And like a big part of it is just noticing like, oh man, sometimes I just feel uncomfortable, sometimes I, mm-hmm. I just feel threatened. Sometimes I just feel jealous. And it doesn't necessarily mean that my partner's done anything wrong really mean that anything has to change. I'm just gonna have to learn how to like be with that with compassion. Yes. You know, and mm-hmm. And that's a huge gift to polyamory or ethical monogamy. And it's like the opposite of what you hear most people say, which is like really focus on rules, right? Yeah. Really focus on all of these structures you can put into place to create safety. But again, that's great, and like I'll help people work on rules and boundaries and whatever. Mm-hmm. But also I'm like, let's focus too on the repair, right? Mm-hmm. Like, what's gonna happen when somebody gets uncomfortable? You know, go in, are you ready for polyamory? How are those conversations going right now, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Are y'all doing conflict really well? Yeah, exactly. Someone's uncomfortable. Can you talk about it?
Casey:Yeah. What's sort of emotions, our emotions are coming out as we're bringing up these conversations? How are you doing with it? Because if you're already finding yourself rising up and getting uncomfortable and, and getting frustrated or all of that, then maybe take a step back and learn how to have those conversations first. Mm-hmm.
Kelsey:Yeah. Like, and Right. And what does that frustration look like? Does that look like, you know, I'm storming out of the house and slamming the door behind me and coming back and saying, you can never, or does that look like saying, oh, I'm feeling really uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, can we work through this together? And, and I really think that folks focusing on. Building some of those skills. Mm-hmm. Um, of noticing and being able to process and hold their own feelings. And then how to communicate with a partner is like so fucking crucial. Like get a polyamory friendly therapist or coach that's mm-hmm. But not to work out your poly, but to like work on your existing Yeah. Sort of emotional intelligence and communication skills,
Casey:you know? Yes. That. See, that's, that's another thing that, that we do all the time is like, one of the, the most important aspects we have in our relationship is ensuring that we don't fall into too heavily into codependency, uh, maintaining self-identity and exploring ourselves as individuals and really learning how to build up that, that emotional intelligence in order to better serve each other. And so we can have that nice ability of opening up the re relationship a little bit because we know we're going into things like doing things like going into argument with the intention to grow. Mm-hmm. Not to create further conflict and being able to have these like, secure ver versions of ourselves that way that we can project out to the world. Mm-hmm. And that just makes our relationship stronger and allows us to feel that security and doing things like opening up a little bit.
Kelsey:Yeah. And, and that's so important, right? That you're like, Like you have to have a sense of separate identities and the ability to tolerate some se, some separateness, separate friendships, separate interests. Mm-hmm. You know, if you're gonna do ethical non-monogamy. And I think that's one of the most missed steps. So I love that you raised that. Um, cause I think it's so important for folk where it's like, okay, so you can't go out to dinner separately. But you're gonna start fucking people separately. You know, you're like, right. It's like, take a step back.
Casey:Oh. But so with, with, with having said that, and so we're, we're, now, we're, we're navigating, uh, polyamorous relationship. Mm-hmm. You have people that are going and they're doing the da they're dating, they're looking to, to get into the pool. They're building their social circles. One of our big ones questions that we have for everybody is always, um, what are some red flags to look for in the world of polyamory whenever you're starting to date people, uh, specifically to like couples or, or anything mm-hmm. Larger. What are some big red flags that you're like, I know that if I hear this, it usually perks my ears up a little bit and I, and I investigate further.
Kelsey:Yeah. I mean, so general of a person who's like, let's talk about green flags, right? Let's talk about what to, let's
Kari:avoid the red flags. Talk about those.
Kelsey:Um, like one of my, when I'm dating people or if we're building a connection with anyone, like the first thing I look for is how does this person talk about their exes? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you know, like, listen, I've had some really hard breakups. I certainly have an X or two that I don't really have a nice thing to say about, um, But I don't feel that way about all of them. Right? Mm-hmm. And what I find in people who, like, the only thing they have to say about previous relationships is like, that person's a fucking asshole. Mm-hmm. Here's all the ways that they were wrong. Yeah. Here's all, you know, here's all the way they, they fucked me over and they have nothing to say about like, here's all the shit I learned in that relationship. Here's how I was the dick in that relationship. Here's what I fucked up and didn't know going in. Here's what I learned coming out. Like, if people have nothing but nasty shit to say about their exes, I'm like, other direction. Get me outta
Kari:here. You know? Mm-hmm.
Kelsey:Um, like for me, that's, that tells me a lot about people's accountability, how they manage conflict, um, how they view themselves as either being active and creating their own relational narratives, or whether they see themselves as passive victims of life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And again, I'm not saying that abusive relationships don't happen that, right. Like, we don't all need to have a positive story about every single relationship we've ever been, but Yeah. But if you have none, yeah.
Casey:I'm, if you're not taking any accountability for the, for the bad, bad relationships in your life, maybe there's a little more to it than that.
Kelsey:Yeah. So I mean, that's really, and it's so easy to spot early on. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's so easy and it, it gives me a lot of information. Um, and then for me, you know, other red flags, like I, people get to break up with me once. Mm-hmm. Um, So, you know, Kayla, one of the things I do love around polyamory is that you can transition relationships. So I have people who are former partners who became friends, who became lovers again, who became friends again, who became family, who became mm-hmm. You know, whatever. But if in a fit of rage, You're like, I'm fucking outta here. I'm like, great. Would you like me to help you pack your things or would you like me to give you some space to pack your things?
Kari:Oh, yeah. We have the, like, we have the rule. Like, you're not sleeping on the couch. Yeah. I told, I'm like, Uhuh, no, we don't do that. I'm like, yeah, we don't. We can take things. Yeah, we
Casey:can take time, take breaks and all that, but no, you're not, we're not sleeping in separate rooms over this one. No,
Kari:no, I totally get that. And, and I think that one of the things and why we talked about like, kind of like the red flags is even like, we kind of have one, like if we are talking to a couple and they're like, we've never done this before. Mm-hmm. That for us, it's, and it's not that you don't deserve the first opportunity or the chance, but we know as a young couple, Experimenting, we should not be with another couple, that this is like their first experience. And so I think that you can kind of personalize red flags to like what y'all are, you know, like seeking what y'all are looking for. But, and or if someone, like, what we've also noticed is someone be like, I'm only interested in your wife. Okay, well that's kind of a red flag. Like we
Kelsey:are
Casey:a packaged, we've made boundaries very clear. Yeah. We've communicated what it is we're looking for. So for you to already cross that boundary and try to try to overstep and advance on it, that's a red flag. Yeah.
Kelsey:Yeah. Showing that you're not recycling, you know, for me, I'm like, It's both compat, like compatibility and the, and absolutely. That thing of like, okay, so the first time I said no to something, right? Or the first time I said, Ooh, not today, or mm-hmm. I'm not really feeling like a saucy text message, or, I actually am only comfortable doing this thing of my partners around. There's like an immediately pushback, like, that's super, a red flag. And then the rest for me are like green flags, right? Like mm-hmm. How does this person with conflict, when this person has a big feeling, how do they communicate that thing? Mm-hmm. Um, are we aligned? Right? Are we aligned on what we're looking for? Do we have compatibility around what we're looking for? Yeah. Do I feel like safe and gushy being in space? Right? So some of like, we're so intellectual. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, what's my body saying when I'm in space with this person? Do I find myself like wanting to be here? Right. Mm-hmm. Where I'm like a little bit on edge, I feel like something in my body is telling me like, Ooh, this person's gonna push me in a way that doesn't feel good. Mm-hmm. Or am I finding myself like here? Yeah. Um, and learning to trust my instinct on that a little bit.
Kari:Absolutely. I mean, between just like general, like body language and self un understanding, and then also just the general communicating all of this, like for any individual looking to put themselves into a relationship with others, or a couple looking to bring someone in, or multiple people in. I, I really feel like the biggest message I've been hearing is communication, communicating to yourself what you want and what you need communicating to your partner or partners, what you want and what you need. Um, I, I really do believe that anyone could be in this type of environment as long as you. Offer up a lot of that for yourself. You know, like your honesty and what you want and your honesty and what my partner would want. You know?
Kelsey:It's that
Casey:brutal honesty too. Yeah. That like, that like fully transparent.
Kari:So anyone looking to, to do this, understand that you have to communicate. Yeah.
Kelsey:And you know, like on, on that front get fucking support. Mm-hmm. You know? Yes. Like hiring a coach, hiring a therapist is great, but also listening to podcasts like this one where you're hearing other people doing this thing, you know, finding a network of people, like again in, in Salt Lake City, Utah, where you don't, you don't necessarily associate sexual liberation with Utah. You know, I admin a group of 37 poly folks. Right? Yeah. And, and I think that's so important because. You know, if you go to a sex party and have a great time, but this one thing was super weird. Like, you don't necessarily wanna call mom to process that, right? Yes.
Casey:You're likely not sitting, sitting down with a, with a friend who's not the same way that you are and talking about these kind of things. So yeah, building, building a social circle circles huge. And we, you know, we try to tell people as often as possible that anywhere that you can do that, whether it be on like through Facebook groups mm-hmm. Or through, I mean, you have to be a little more careful, but through things like Fe life or some of these, these group, these areas where you can start to build. Any social circle mm-hmm. Where you can have the conversation openly and people can go, Hey, um, here's a thought. Like I was looking through, um, uh, a sub redd the other day on polyamory, and there was just, I mean, some of the stories that were on there of people saying, Hey, is this a red flag? And just diving into a triad story about things like just going off the rails and they don't even realize that it's happening yet because they're ignorant to what they're getting into. But you have this great support system of people who are coming in and commenting and being like, listen, here's what you should probably think about doing. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, building that social circle, getting, getting everybody involved or the, the group that you need mm-hmm. That core group that you need, that you can expand your consciousness around polyamory is, is key to making it successful.
Kelsey:Well, and, and on, you know, the communication thing, you know, those two are related cuz I sometimes I'm like, Okay, you're telling me to communicate about it, but what does that conversation sound like? Like I need someone to say to me, like, well, you could go to your partner and you could say, Hey, I noticed I'm attracted to the mailman, and I'd like to have a conversation about that. And I'm, oh, okay. So, okay. I can't, you know, like, and that's the other, the benefit of community is like, we can model to each other. We can say like, God, I'm just, I'm feeling so nervous about having this, this conversation and, and I need the words to escape my body before I can say them to somewhere else. You know? And so again, that community, that support piece, other people are doing this. I'm not alone. I don't have to like forge a path ahead with no fucking models. Mm-hmm. Um,
Casey:Like, you're not exactly Lewis and Clark here. This, there's plenty of
Kelsey:people. You don't have to
Casey:be the way. Yeah. Plenty of people have been there and paved the way for someone to try to dive in and be like, I'm just gonna start hacking them away at trees and see if it makes a path that I like, like, yeah,
Kelsey:yeah, yeah. You don't have, you don't have to be, and everybody's advice might not work for you, you know? And that's total, like again, it comes back. You have to find what's authentic for you. Mm-hmm. The way, the way you guys do. Non-monogamy is different and the way I do non-monogamy is the different, but, but it's still helpful to have people who are like trying and you can try on maybe. Okay. Like Carrie and Casey are doing that. Like how, how might that feel? You know, what if I took that approach? Okay. That doesn't quite feel like the thing. So maybe I can adjust to look a little bit more like, um, Or you can lose it and it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be hard. And it's gonna be painful. Yeah. And you, you'll probably get through it and you're gonna learn a bunch of stuff and it's gonna be great. You know?
Kari:Exactly.
Casey:Oh God, I love it. Well, I mean, we've covered a lot today already, and we're, we're hitting the end of our time, unfortunately, but we're gonna be doing plenty more episodes on polyamory. Mm-hmm. On ethical non-monogamy. We have, this is, it's probably one of our most requested episode types is that people either A, are monogamous and they want to have that like, That door. Mm-hmm. Or at least that window to like look into polyamory so they can kind of fantasize about it. And we're happy to provide that. Oh yeah. I love being
Kari:people's fantasy. Just kidding.
Casey:We, we also have the, the practical application that we get to go through for and help instruct people that are like, Hey, you know, we, we've really been talking about this. Mm-hmm. Or, I'm single and I want to be poly. I don't know what that looks like. Or, you know, we're a couple and we've been married for a long time and we're looking at opening up, but it scares the shit of us to do it. Where do we start? So, mm-hmm. Yeah. We're gonna have plenty more episodes coming up on, on polyamory, on ethical non monogamy. The entire
Kelsey:concept
Kari:of it. Yeah. We are normalizing this shit. I'm tired of people being like, wait, what? Like, no, this is the shit. Come on, join our side. It's a lot funner over here.
Casey:No. Anyway, with that, Kelsey, thank you so much for coming on today. You've been a huge help in spreading the message about what polyamory is, isn't kind of how to navigate that. Mm-hmm. And for that, we thank you. Um, and the last, before we go, if, if people wanna get ahold of you, if they have any questions or they wanna know more about, you know, the career side of you, where, how, what can they do to get in touch?
Kelsey:Uh, the easiest place to find me is on Instagram at fake Kelsey Rose. Um, that's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. Um, and I can drop some other contact information to you guys to throw in the show notes. Um, yeah. Perfect. Sounds good to me. But it has been such a fucking blast talking to you, so thank you so much. What a great conversation. And I'm like, I wish there was more time, cause I wanna hear all about your guys' journey and like, Dive in. So I know
Casey:that's, that's, that's been a fun one. We, we, well, we'll just have you on again. Yeah.
Kelsey:Yeah. I love,
Casey:that's what we kinda keep doing. We'll have people, we'll sit here and do an interview and they'll be like, all right. And then, um, we're gonna go ahead and get you on again. And a like, this is a lot of fun,
Kari:but it's just, there's so much that can be like to dive into this concept. It's hard to do in, in an hour. So yeah. We would absolutely love to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us today. Um, so this is our another episode of Come With kc. Mm-hmm. Uh, I am your co-host Carrie. And I'm Dr.
Casey:Casey. And, uh, we'll see you next time. Yeah.