Designer Boss
Designer Boss
How to find your Design Biz Path
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0:04
Welcome to the designer boss podcast, listen, learn, love and level up with the ultimate success guide for web and graphic designers.
0:17
My name is Anna Dower. I'm a cake lover and success-slaying graphic design mentor.
0:23
And I'm Emma Kate, your personal sensei for mastering the wonderful world of the Web.
0:30
Together, we'll show you how to harness our tried and tested experiences and hard-earned lessons while you soak up everything we know about building a successful design business.
0:46
Hey, everyone, welcome to the Designer Boss Podcast with Anna Dower and Emma Kate. Today, we're going to be talking about the evolution of our businesses, and how we decided that we wanted to do what we do, and the journey that we took to get there. I know everyone's journey is different. So hopefully, it will be interesting for you guys to hear about our journeys. And hopefully it motivates you, inspires you, lets you know that you're doing better than you think, basically. So em, when did you know that you wanted to be a web designer and developer? I didn't actually know I wanted to get into that until I was in my degree studying. I really went to study graphic design. I wanted to be a graphic designer. I wanted to create logos and brochures and posters and all that cool stuff. I didn't really know much about websites or anything until I started. And there was one subject one or two subjects in my degree on web design and web development, just using Dreamweaver and HTML and stuff. And I was like, Oh, this is pretty cool, actually, like this whole coding side of things. And oh my god, I remember Dreamweaver, I think you must be the only person in the world that thought it was good.
2:13
It was so bad.
2:16
I loved it. I felt like a total computer hacker when I could like put something together. And it's great now having students where now I have some design students that like teaching the web and they're like, I'm like you. I'm a code-loving designer. I love all this stuff, too. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm not the only one.
2:36
Yeah, so that's when I figured out that that's like, I kind of wanted to go down that path. But it took quite a few years before I really focused on that. More so than just doing branding and logos and stuff. I did both side by side for a long time.
2:54
And eventually got into WordPress and stuff later on. But WordPress wasn't even a thing back in the day when I was at uni, you will probably know it's just Dreamweaver. Yeah, no, no mobile like no iPhones, no mobile websites, none of that stuff.
3:13
So yeah, back in the day, I remember at art college, when I was learning design, it was all about Quark Express. Do you remember Quark Express? A lot of people probably don't remember it. It was basically just like the InDesign now. But yeah, I pretty much knew that I wanted to be something creative, all my life. But I didn't know what that looked like. I came from a family where they were Greek, very hardworking, very traditional. And they were kind of like, well, you can't really make a living from being creative. And that's when I kind of got into high school. And I was like, oh, there's this job called graphic designer, and you get to be creative. And it's not labelled an artist, which means that I'll actually make money from. Apparently, my family seemed happy with that. They didn't argue too much. And then I decided, you know, I was gonna go to art college, learn to be a graphic designer. I finished grade 12. And I didn't get into my first choice, which was graphic design. And I was like, oh my god, the world's gonna end. And of course, my overbearing Greek family was like, well just go to uni and do any degree, you know.
4:38
And I listened to him. And I went to uni for six months, just doing an arts degree which was, which is terribly useful. I did that for three years.
4:52
Funny, I was the same. I just like I know what to do. So I'm like, I'll go, I'll just go to uni. I'll do arts. I did arts For three years coming up to graduation, I was like, I'm qualified to do absolutely nothing. Wow, it's gonna employ me and all these jobs for graphic design, and we're coming up. And I was like, what's that? That's when I didn't even know what a graphic designer was. Until then. So then I went back again. So wasting six months. Sounds very good compared to waste years.
5:23
I think I had a low tolerance, and I just felt like university was not for me. Like, it just was not for me, it didn't feel like I was in my place, you know. And then I was like, six months. That's it. And then the last six months for the year, I just travelled and tried again, to get into the design course that I want it to be in the next year and got in, thankfully.
5:55
So I went and did graphic design at uni, after I did my Artsdegree. So I got like a semester's credit. So I still did another two and a half years of uni. And yeah, I feel like I learned a bit, but not like two and a half years worth.
6:06
And the massive hex debt that I'm currently paying off like, Oh, really? Yeah, it's just like, you know, you learned a bit and I enjoyed uni. It was a fun time of my life. But so many of my friends over the years that I've mentored and stuff, and they wanted to get into graphic design, web design, and I'm like, you don't need to go to uni, that there's so much you can learn yourself. There's so many online courses and things like that, like you can so teach yourself and that it's a shame that a lot of I do still find a lot of designers feel like they're under qualified when they don't have that certificate.
6:46
I guess Yeah, give you a bit of credibility. But I you so don't need it. It comes down to talent.
6:54
totally. Like, no clients in the history ever have asked me what's your qualification? Like, you know, did you go to uni? Did you go to TAFE? What's your qualification with design? Basically, your work speaks for itself. And like I said, the programs that I learned when I was in TAFE, no longer exist. So basically, I then had to teach myself Illustrator, InDesign.
7:23
So I do think if you're a self taught designer, you're fine. Yeah.
7:30
Yeah, definitely. Being self taught and just picking the selective things that you feel like you need to up your skills in whatever that might be. Finding specific, like, yeah, online courses, or even YouTube channels, or things like that. There's so much you can teach yourself and I think being part of like a lot of these Facebook groups and stuff like that, I find even I still learn heaps from other people. And, and also like, all the like, the tools change, like you said, like the tools that you learn, obviously, no one uses that now unless they're like a really ancient print shop.
8:11
I worked for a printer back in the day, one of my first jobs out of uni, and they were using CorelDRAW. And I hadn't used that before, because I learned illustrator and all that at uni. Yeah. And no one makes up actual printed physical design work anymore. Like, I feel like I'm not sure what the point of that was. But yeah, things change, things change. So after uni, Did you get a job straight away?
8:41
Um, yes. So before in my last semester, I actually started working full time, because I only had like, I think, two subjects or something. So I was able to do that. I don't know how. And I saw I worked for like an event management company or something. I think they were only work for them for a few months, I think.
9:07
So I did that for a while. And then I started working at a print shop. That's when I started working at the print shop, which was kind of fun. It wasn't like the most exciting work in the world. But it was like different jobs all the time because it was like different clients coming in. So that was kind of cool.
9:24
And then I got a job, which I thought was like my dream job working as like mostly a graphic designer, web designer for a company, but with a bit of reception work. And that bit of reception to 90% reception work, 10% web design. And it was just like soul sucking and terrible pay and stressful. And yeah, so I worked there for I think a little over a year. And it got to a point where I was freelancing on the side. And that started actually earning me more money, the stuff I was doing at nights and on weekends than what I was pulling in from my day job. So I was like, Oh, this is a good sort of motivator. Like, why am I still doing this day job that's stressing me out. I was having wine every night when I got home because I couldn't switch off otherwise. And it was for like, $37,000 a year. Like, it was like, one day and I was so stressed out.
10:27
So yeah, that's, that's when I kind of made the decision. I think I was 24. At the time, I was lucky enough to be living back at home with my parents and the granny flat. So I've barely had any expenses, and I was like, this is the time to do it. So I went out on my own, and I've never looked back. It's been amazing.
10: 50
Wow. You're so lucky that your journey from a shitty day job to running your own business was fairly quick. Yeah, like you didn't waste a huge chunk of time.
11:03
No, it was quite a quick decision to make. I kind of just like freelanced on the side just randomly, because like my uncle was in marketing. So he was sending me some work. And then I just kind of like grew it up a bit from there. And I'm glad I did, because I never actually had any intention of running my own business. Like it was not something I'd thought about. Granted. I think as the years went on, I probably would have thought about it, but because I sort of jumped so quickly.
11:25
I'm really grateful for having that really shitty job. Because if I had a really good job, I would have never done it, I don't think, yeah, I wouldn't trade it for the world now.
11:36
So when you started, your business was just designed mostly.
11:42
it was mostly designed. But yeah, I was doing some websites, I had just started in WordPress, unlike with Dreamweaver and stuff where I could build the websites myself, with WordPress, I was like, this is too hard, I can't do it. So I would just design them in Photoshop, and then have a developer and he would build them for me. And I ran into a lot of dodgy developers that I work with and had a lot of headaches over the years. So I've obviously technology changes and over that sort of evolution of my business. So with a few, but the past 10 years, excuse me.
12:16
Technology's changed. And now they are tools like Divi and Elementor. and stuff so I can build the websites myself. And so now, as I was able to start taking on sort of more, more of the development role of those websites, I've really moved into web more than and not doing much of the graphic design stuff anymore.
12:42
The thought of designing something in Photoshop makes me cringe. My designer brain is just like exploded if I had to design something in Photoshop, but that's the difference between someone who lives in the web world versus the graphic design world. I think, yeah, there are a lot of differences.
13:04
I used to like now I actually design. If I have to design a home page, I'll do it in Illustrator. I do prefer that. But um, yeah, we got taught Photoshop was the way to go. Because it's pixel based, and web is pixel based. And there weren't all these X, there's really cool exporting tools in Illustrator. Now we can export the assets really well, where they didn't have that before. But illustrator so much easier now. And I probably should start next day. Actually, I have a lot of students that use XD to design websites now. And so really, yeah, well, my journey wasn't that quick. I feel like I wasted a lot of years. When I finished my graphic design diploma, I was looking for a design job. I couldn't get a job. Honestly, it was like the most soul destroying time. Like I was just going to interview after interview. And when I think back to it now my folio must have been horrendous, like when I think of the design work that I did then
14:06
Don’t think that though and it was probably quite good. Like if you think about, you know, at the time was probably quite good. But we always look back on our old work and cringe,
14:18
I think, yeah, totally. But for some reason I couldn't get a job. Then a friend of mine, who I went to design college with got a job at a studio. And she basically said to me, Oh, they're looking for someone else. Do you want to come work here? And that's what I did. I started working there. We did a little bit of like branding stuff, but it was mostly real estate ads.
14:45
And yeah, at the time, I was like, I'll take any job because I was just in that zone of like, I'll never become a designer. No one will ever hire me. So yeah, and it was good to it was fun to work in a studio with your friend, you know? Yeah. And the women that owned the studio, they were two women. It was like a pretty relaxed place to work. One of the women, I would say, basically told me everything about design. She was like my mentor for 10 years.
And yeah, I was there for 10 years designing real estate ads, the business changed over time, and their partnership ended. And it just got messy, got messy really quick.
15:35
And thankfully, I guess I fell pregnant. And that's when I decided I'm going to start my own business, I had had enough of the soul-sucking stuff. And it's not like I got to be creative at all for 10 years. But I did learn a lot of stuff like how to deal with clients. eye for detail. I did learn a lot.
16:00
but there's only so much you could do with real estate ads, I guess.
16:04
Yeah. It's just like moving stuff in a box. Yeah. And then I started my business. And it started off as a stationery business. Doing wedding invitations, birthday invitations, baby announcements, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, I enjoyed that for a few years until I got over, like the print management side of things. Oh my god, that is so sucky when you have to deal with printers. And you have to deal with brides and colors and paper and postage and all that sort of stuff. I got over it. And then I just moved my focus to graphic design, branding, and female entrepreneurs. And I did that for, I'd say, seven years, maybe. I feel like in my business path, I've been so many different things. Sounds like it definitely.
17:01
Yeah. And I've tried lots of different things. I had designers working for me, I had, you know, all sorts of things, digital magazines, I held retreats and all these things. But yeah, it all led me to the journey of where I am now. Which is my happy place. I think where I was always meant to end up.
17:33
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, you, you rock at what you do. So it's definitely well suited to and I think, like all those, you know, all those nightmare things that sort of happened over the years, it's all it's all happens for a reason it makes you really appreciate what you've got now. But it also makes you a better mentor, because you can really relate to what other people are going through and also help them prevent going through that as well. Yeah, like if you are working a real estate design job, do not stay there for 10 years.
17:59
Yeah, but like you said, yeah, it definitely was all part of the puzzle.
18:10
I found that to even like over the years in my business, all the sort of different avenues I sort of tried to go down and you know, I to begin with, I was you know, doing branding and graphic design were but also like, you know, setting up MailChimp and helping people with their emails and like turn into IT support and all this stuff. And like even like designing things in Word docs for clients, and there's like, all these things that you sort of you try out all these different things, and then you realize, okay, I hate like 80% of them, I'm just gonna focus on these ones.
18:45
Yeah, totally. So if you feel like you're in a really shitty place right now, perhaps you're like doing an arts degree just so you have something to do. Or you're working in a print shop or you know, realize that it's just one tiny piece of the big puzzle. And like, there's a reason why you're having to do that. Right now.
19:05
Another thing I think I realized too, is like a part of my journey. At one point, I got so busy that I employed I had a designer working for me for 20 hours. And then I think 30 hours a week at one point and then developer working for me as well. And the designer she was like perfect. She's like a little mini me. She was the best thing that I could have had. Best designer. I just love to Yeah, I still hated having an employee like having someone else manage and I think it was great that I had someone that was amazing. To make me realize that it's not the designers fault. It's not like I've got the wrong designer. It's the fact that I don't like doing that I like to sort of I'm not much of I don't like the whole project management having to like go out and like hustle for work to make sure I can pay her like all that stuff. I think it made me really
I realized that I didn't want that. And I actually I had a coaching call with a student a couple of weeks ago. And we were talking about that because she was looking at like hiring someone. And I said, well just have a think about this, because this is kind of what your role turns into. And I have, and then she realized that, oh, yeah, maybe I don't want that. It was a good thing to think about. But then I have other friends like Haley, for instance, just loves project management, like that's just like her zone of genius. And she loves being in that position. So I think it's good to sort of like, really think about what your, what your day to day is going to be like, and certain things that sometimes it's good to just try it out and see.
20:44
I have a similar story, because I had a designer working for me, she was pretty much full time seriously, the best designer better than me at designing, I loved her. And I just didn't want the responsibility. And the thing that I've learned over the years is, I hate being locked into anything. Like, Seriously, like, I did not realize that I didn't know it was a trait I had until I started my business. And people wanted to like schedule things. Let's do this at this time every week. And it kind of makes me feel like, No, I don't want to do that. And being an employer really locks you into shape. Because now you have to make X amount of dollars, not just for you, but for your employees as well. And, you know, by you got to try these things, it helps you figure out what your idea of success looks like. Like, for me, originally, when I started, I was like, I'm gonna have a studio, I'm gonna have all these designers working for me. You know, all I'm going to do is liaise with clients, I would never in a million years have thought I would have ended up being a mentor for other graphic designers, and that would be my full-time job.
22:06
When did you sort of have that idea, then.
22:13
like when I'd been doing my design business for a while, I had this digital magazine for female entrepreneurs. And a lot of those people were coming to me for business advice, and wanting to kind of replicate what I had created in my own business. So a few of them were like friends where they'd be like, I want you to mentor me. And I was doing that for a bunch of people. And they weren't even designers. One of them was a copywriter. And the other one was like a sex expert. Another one was, you know, though, all different things. And I worked with them. And I liked it. And I felt like oh, this is really awesome. But then I just took it one step further and made it specifically for designers, because that's my zone of genius, basically.
23:07
Yeah. And you're all about niching down, you needed to find that.
23:07
Yes. And then I just like one day decided, I'm gonna send out an email to my list and see if I get anyone for this kind of three-month mastermind for designers. And at the time, it was massive to me, it was going to be three months charging $3,000 each. And I was like, if I had three, I'll be happy. And I think I ended up getting five just from sending out an email. Awesome. And then I was like, Yeah, this is what I'm gonna do. I tried it. And I've got a good response and haven't looked back since basically.
23:47
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. And how long ago was that? Like? How long have you been mentoring for now?
23:54
Seriously, I'm so bad at times. Probably like mentoring as my full time thing, maybe two or three years, three years? Maybe. So what about you like How did you go from like doing design and stuff to then just doing web? And then doing e courses and mentoring and all that sort of stuff?
24:15
Yeah, well, I think um, I mainly started really focusing on when really I got to a point in my business where I wouldn't really take on design work from clients unless I was doing their website too. So it was more like, I've rebranded my business to all our websites, like it wasn't designed, it was websites that people were coming to me for a website, and then often they didn't have a logo, then no branding, yet. They didn't have things like that. So I would do it all for them. But I wouldn't just do the odd sort of design or branding job for people.
24:45
So that really sort of started phasing out the branding and stuff. And then it's only in the last couple of years actually, since I've been doing e-courses in that that I've kind of just got rid of all that branding stuff altogether. And if someone needs that I have obviously a whole bunch of other designers, I can refer them to now.
25:04
But then as far as like mentoring and stuff goes for years, they're actually just, you know, I had friends that were trying to get into design or starting their own businesses that I was just kind of mentoring for free. You know, they just come to me for advice. And we do Skype chats because zoom wasn't a thing.
25:24
And we, you know, just I'd share all sort of like my email templates and stuff like that, because I'm just, I'm one of those nerdy organized designers, I just have like email templates and stuff and like, brief phones, all that for everything. And so I just share that all with them. And they started saying, oh, like, you're really good at this IVs, sort of less thought about, you could probably do this. And it's sort of it. It sparked that idea. In my mind, I didn't even really think about it. And I was like, oh, imagine if I would just spend my days helping other designers. And that would be my living. Like, that just sounds amazing. That would be so much fun. And so it kind of sparked that idea. And then yeah, and thought, Oh, well, I'll build an E-course. Because obviously, my first e-Course is teaching designers how to build websites. Because I realized over the years, not every designer knows how to build a website, a lot of them don't want to, but there's a lot that want to and don't even know where to start. And I was just lucky enough that I kind of figured it out over the years. And I'd had a lot of designers coming to me with their beautiful designs and getting me to build them for them. And I'm like, with tools like Divi and stuff, you can do it these days, it's really it's not like you have to be in there coding HTML and learning all that hardcore stuff. So putting that course together was really exciting. Because I knew that there was a. there was a lot of designers out there, they would really benefit from that. So that's how I got into it.
26:47
I loved hearing your story. I feel like there were a lot of similarities between us along the way. Ya know, I'm probably like, a lot older than you.
27:03
And you probably got there faster than me. But yeah, there were similarities. Um, I guess the moral of the story is that it's all fluid, you know, and they you will change along the way, and it will make your business change to.
27:24
I feel that change. Like go with it. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for listening, guys. Hopefully, it helped you realize that your journey is not so different to everyone else's. We'll talk to you soon.
27:47
You've been listening to the Designer Boss Podcast with Anna Dower and Emma Kate. If you'd like to learn more about us and our upcoming digital summit for graphic and web designers, head to our website designerboss.co