Conflict Literacy: Transforming Tension into Innovation with Dr. Jen Fry

Conflict isn’t the thing ruining most teams. Avoiding it is. We sit down with Dr. Jen Fry, TEDx speaker, tech founder, and conflict literacy expert, to get painfully practical about what leaders actually need when tension shows up at work: language, timing, boundaries, and the nerve to say the thing before it becomes a forest fire.

We start with Jen’s surprising background in sports geography and use it to unpack a powerful leadership lesson: culture and context shape how people give feedback, hear feedback, and interpret “nice.” From “Midwest nice” to blunt directness, we explore why politeness can delay clarity, how that delay hurts performance, and how leaders can adjust without watering down the message. Then we get into the behaviors that define conflict management skills, including apologizing with real accountability, refusing to be the middleman, and creating space for coworkers to work through disagreement without a supervisor shutting it down.

From there, we connect conflict to innovation and organizational culture. Jen explains why first drafts are supposed to be ugly, how curiosity and pushback refine ideas, and why time management in meetings directly affects psychological safety and participation. We also cover workplace boundaries, the difference between urgency and emergency, and what to do when a conflict triggers a deeper reaction. One of the biggest takeaways: build your “feel-bad muscle” so you can be empathetic without turning every no into a negotiation.

If you’re serious about leadership communication, conflict resolution, and building a team culture that can actually innovate, press play. After you listen, subscribe, share with a colleague who needs better boundaries, and leave a review. What’s one hard conversation you’ll stop postponing this week?

Transcript

Welcome And Why Conflict Matters

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. We often hear that communication is key, but the truth is most leaders aren't struggling with regular communication. A lot of times they're struggling with conflict. They're avoiding the hard conversations, letting boundaries blur, and allowing tension to simmer until it just stalls progress. Today's guest, Dr. Jen Fry, argues that talking isn't enough. We need the actual skills to navigate conflict if we want to build a culture of innovation. Dr. Jen Fry, an international TEDx speaker, tech founder, and conflict literacy expert, she's also the founder of Jen Fry Talks. She works at the intersection of conflict and culture, helping teams move from being leveled by conflict to leveraging it for growth. Dr. Jen holds a PhD in sports geography from Michigan State, Go Green, and is the author of the new No BS Guide to Boundaries. I said no. She specializes in giving leaders the courage and the literal language they need to set boundaries and stay unbothered while doing this work. Today's episode, we're diving into why conflict can be a source of innovation, how to build conflict literacy, and why your inability to say no might be the biggest barrier to your team's success. Hello and welcome to the communicative leader, hosted by me, Dr. Leah Omilion Hodges. My friends call me Dr. OH. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. Dr. Jen, welcome to the communicative leader. I'm so excited that you're here with us today. And you have this really unique background as a sports geographer. And I'm wondering if you can tell me how geography shows up in sports.

Dr. Jen Fry 1:58

Yeah, so I think it's such a beautiful thing, but people don't realize how geographical sport is. So if you think about there's a great 30 for 30 from ESPN on the Raiders. And it talks about how the fan base, whenever it moves cities, because it moves cities like four times, how the fan base changed. And so let me preface, I'm from Arizona. I'm a Gen Xer, I'm 45. And in my time, the Raiders were a very black and brown fan base. Like you would see Ice Cube and Snoop Dogg with the Raider hat on. And like if you had a Raider champion jacket, you were in the upper echelons of the world. Like you saw that the um the low rider cars that bounce with the Raider school, right? You saw a lot of the cholos and cholas that had raider tattoos. And so when we talk, and so I'd say anyone go watch that 30 for 30 because now you're thinking from a geographical perspective, it shows you how when they moved, it literally cut off that fan base. And then when they tried to move back, it didn't. Because one of the aspects with geography, we have to think about who has access to get to facilities. Because that if you have access through trains and buses, it's going to shift the geographical fan base versus if you can only get there through cars. So the first part is thinking about where are these facilities at and what does it mean for the fan base, who can get there and who can't get there. And that really changes it. I think the second thing we talk about sport through a geographical lens is we look at training styles. So I come from volleyball, but I'll use baseball. It's kind of an easier understanding for people. So if you think about a Dominican or Cuban baseball player, you think about a lot of chains, you think about a lot of swagger, slow moving, right? Like they're coming up. And then if you think about Japanese or Korean, they are tight with their movements, they're coming up, right? It the training per geographies, per countries is so different. And I think it's when we think about sport through a geographical lens, we don't just want to think about the places that people play at and like that singular focus, but really spreading it out. And what does it look like to look at sport through where arenas are located? What does it look like for the accessibility for fans of different types to be able to get there? Um, I think about super random. A few years ago, I was in LA and I was able to go to an SEC football game and a UCLA football game at the same time. And USC is in the middle of the city, right? Like decently accessible, you'll say, for where their facility is. And then you have to go for UCLA is out to the Rose Bowl. Have you been to the Rose Bowl area?

Dr. Leah OH 4:54

No, I haven't.

Dr. Jen Fry 4:55

Girl, you have to take a plane, train, automobile, camel to get all the way out there. It's it's like an hour to get you.

Dr. Leah OH 5:06

You don't end up there by accident. Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 5:09

If you're out there by accident, I don't know what to tell you. And then you get like you take the train out there, and a lot of people don't take the train because there's kind of, you know, this opinion of it. But you get there and then you have to bus from the train station to they have their own Rose Bowl buses. Like the fan shifts from the person who randomly is going to go to the game to the person you have to be intentful, probably have a car, right? Yeah. All of that type of stuff. And so for me, when we think about sport and geography, we think about all elements of it and how it affects the actual game.

Regional Culture Shapes Hard Talks

Dr. Leah OH 5:43

Yeah, that is fascinating. And things that I've never thought about and now will think about. And thinking about your, you know, your expertise in geography and bringing it into, you know, difficult conversations, how does the geography of a room, those boundaries, how does that change how someone could approach a difficult conversation?

Dr. Jen Fry 6:07

Yeah. So I think when we talk about that, understanding where people come from is a really important thing. I was just in Lansing, Michigan, giving a keynote. And in Michigan, it's kind of that area of Midwestern kindness. Right? It's got to be Midwestern kindness. I hear you. Yep. Midwestern nice. Yep. The Midwestern niceness, excuse me. And, you know, it's gonna be one of the things I said is that niceness won't keep your job. Right? Like when you're nice, you're gonna get stepped over, you're gonna get used, you're gonna get burnt out. And if we think about it through geographies, we're looking at this idea of Midwestern niceness and how people approach hard conversations, is that there's a lot of layers to it to finally get to the truth. I can't just bring you in, Leah, and say, hey, Leah, we've seen your performance, it's gone down the last you know year. We want to discuss that and how we can help you. That that straight conversation is not going to happen. It's gonna be how's your family? How are you doing? There's 30 minutes of conversation. And and the the problem with that is that niceness has the employees in there stress the hell out. Instead of just getting to the point, yeah, I'm fine, the kids are fine, and they're sitting there just wanting to hear the thing, but you're layer and layer, layer. Yeah. And then what tends to happen after that is that the thing actually isn't said. So now you spent all this time talking to me and you haven't said the thing that I need to work on, you haven't said the thing that that needs to be done. Like you haven't said the thing in clear, concise ways. And that's a big problem because then I, if I'm that employee, can't fix the things I need to fix.

Dr. Leah OH 7:55

Exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry 7:56

And so you have to think, versus if you have a New Yorker in the room, you you bring him in there, you're like, yo, what are you doing? Yeah. What you like, what are you doing? Right? Like, yeah, you you different areas can tell you how to navigate those difficult conversations. And so if you have a boss who's Midwest niceness and an employee that's New Yorker, that's gonna butt heads because the New Yorker's like, just give it to me. And the nicest is like, well, yeah, and they're like, just yeah, hedge, hedge, hedge.

Dr. Leah OH 8:24

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 8:25

And I'll tell you, I'm very much a just tell me what you need. Like, people will call me and talk to me, and I'll and I'll be like, I don't mean to be rude, tell me what you need. Like, I just need to know if I can do it or not, and then we can go. But like all this other stuff, just tell me what you need, and then we can get to going.

Dr. Leah OH 8:41

I love it. And that brings us to your mantra. So talking is good, skills are better. So, in your work with leadership teams, Jen, what do you see? Like, what are the biggest gaps between the leader who's just talking and the leader who's actually possesses that conflict literacy?

Dr. Jen Fry 8:57

The one thing, the first thing I'll see is that they are willing to engage in difficult conversations early. They're not waiting till it's a forest fire. They see that it's a little fire and they're they put it out quickly. Right. So I think that's the first thing is that there's a willingness to engage in hard stuff early on and not wait till someone's done it four, five, six times. And now they're they have to fix it because they're about people are about to leave it, right? And work is down and money's down. Now they they have no other obligation to fix it. And so now there's a lot more stuff that's having to be fixed than one small thing. So I think the first thing is a willingness to engage in difficult stuff early on. The second thing I would say is that they have a willingness to apologize and not like the I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sorry the group hates it. But if I if I yell at Leah in public, I am apologizing in public to everyone. Hey Leah, I just want, you know, I know we're about to start this meeting, but I just want to apologize to Leah. What I said was inappropriate, I should I should have waited until we had the whatever it is, and a willingness to apologize in depth about what they did. I think that's the next thing. The third thing is one that that has the skills is that they allow their their co-workers to engage in conflict. And what I mean by that is that it's easy for supervisors to play the daddy role. And what I mean by that is the dad comes in the room and is like, quit arguing.

unknown 10:26

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 10:26

That's it. Yep, strike one. Right? Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's easy for co-workers or it's easy for supervisors because of the power to just stop conflict. And when you do that, that is hurting everybody because now we can't figure stuff out. We just know now we can't talk about it. It's still there. You and I still have beef, but we can't talk about it. And I think the last thing that Supervisor does that is really good with conflict literacy is that they don't allow themselves to be a sucker. And what I mean by that is say if you and I are having a problem, maybe I I use this simple example. We were hosting an event and the food was there at 6.15. And you and I had communicated a few times, and in instead of you, there's two ways that I see a sucker happening. The the first way is that instead of you coming to me and you saying, Hey Jen, we agreed that the food would be here at six o'clock. Instead of that way, you go to you go to our boss and say, Hey, I'm uncomfortable giving Jen this feedback, but can you tell her to have the food on time for this? Yeah. I like I know who it's from. It ain't exactly and so spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. We know who we know who the villain is. Yep, yep. And and so the first way that they're the sucker is that instead of saying, hey Leah, go and talk to Jen about this and report back, they handle it. Hey Jen, I just want to let you know uh I've had some conversations, right? Can you please have the food on time? Yeah. And then I say, What are you talking about? Here's here's the email that shows that we actually agreed at six o'clock. Then they have to go back to Leah, say, Hey, Leah, Jen showed me the email at six o'clock. And then they're like, Well, no, the text message, and now they're in the middle, they're battling out with having both of us go through. The second way I see that they're a sucker is when they do the whole anonymous thing. Hey, Leah, I have some anonymous feedback for you. I can't tell you who said it, when the event was. I can't tell you any of the contextual stuff you need to get better. But I'm just gonna tell you that you're you just were a little too aggressive in the email. What email?

Dr. Leah OH 12:43

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 12:44

I can't tell you any of that. Well, what am I gonna do with you telling me the barest of bare bones of this house?

Using Tension To Drive Innovation

Dr. Leah OH 12:51

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. And that leads us to conflict as innovation. And I'm so excited you see, you know, conflict as a source of innovation. And that's something I'm an organizational communication scholar. We embrace it. But most people, especially many leaders, they see conflict as a sign of failure or breakdown. So, Jen, from your perspective in your work, how can a leader shift that messaging to signal to the team that healthy tension is actually a vital component for growth?

unknown 13:23

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 13:23

Well, there's a few ways. The first way is that they have to be okay with their events, their with their stuff being picked apart. We can't innovate if our boss brings the idea and this is the only idea, right? It's the only thing that we can work on. And instead of us saying, well, it's missing a lid, the shape of instead of us doing that, we're like, oh my God, it's so great. So the first thing is how does the person in charge handle their idea being picked apart? The second thing about it is really pushed to have the thought process that the first idea is never gonna be our best. Like the you're whatever for I know I'm a tech company, and the first the first iteration is not gonna make you the billion-dollar company. The first iteration of anything is not is not gonna be it's uh you have a raw diamond, and you have to sit there and you have to make it the diamond. And if you just put this raw diamond and say, This is it, and then when any anyone ever says, Well, it's kind of dull, and you're like, No, it's not, this is it. You're gonna have this beautiful diamond, and so there has to be an ability to understand, like your first ideas, they they need to be manhandled. That when you put stuff forth, you're you're hoping it it gets manhandled. And so yesterday I went to this. We have this really cool thing. I live in Baltimore, and we have this really cool thing called profs and and pints pints, profs and pints, profs and pints. Yeah, and so essentially what happens at different like bars, a professor will will talk about a topic, give you a lecture style. And this one was talking about curiosity. And what was interesting to me was how uncurious people were. Like the questions they asked, I was like, you're not, I'm just a naturally curious, I'm a rabbit holer by nature. I'm a rabbit holer. If I see a married couple that their pictures are not together anymore, I'm rabbit holing. Like I feel like I thought everybody did that, right? Like, if I see a word or ingredient, I'm looking, I just was shocked with the type of questions they asked that I was like, y'all ain't curious. And I'm looking up stuff all the time. And so I say that because with my tech company, a a woman was like, I think you should look at this group. And I was like, okay. And so I looked at the group and I was like, well, they might be too young. And then I was like, well, I wonder if they have a next level, like another age group. It doesn't make sense that they would have this group and this group. There has to be some middle group. So I am looking for that, and I find the middle group that's the group I actually need to go after. And I'd say this as an example of had I had I just listened to the one thing and then it didn't work and been like, well, it's not working, I wouldn't be able to get to the next levels. And that's why I feel like when we talk about ideas and innovation, that your first thing you said might not be it, right? What she told me is not it. But then the next things you add on are. And if you're not looking for the the the grappling of conflict, you're not gonna have the layering on that create the diamond idea. And that's a part of it, is that my first part is is just the starting blocks.

Dr. Leah OH 16:52

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 16:52

We we need other people's knowledge, experience, and lived experience and all of that to layer on to get to the winning thing. And if you don't have innovation, yeah, you don't have the pushback and the pulling, then you're not going to grow and scale the way you want to. And the last thing I'll say on this, yeah, is when we're talking about innovation, like the first parts of it are are ugly when you're trying to figure it out. Yep. You know, it's really ugly and you're you're trying to figure out, but when you have people pushing back on your idea, you're able to then talk about it more eloquently, more detailed. You have stuff behind it. You're not just saying that this is the cup, and I'm and if we don't take this, well, fine. No, you're able to say the reason why I picked this shape is because it's ergonomic for the hand and 50% more people have it. And the reason why we use this lid is because we found blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we're able to level up. But if you don't have the grappling and the and the idea scaffolding, you can't get to that. And there's nothing better. I feel like like my chief of staff and I are both we are like whenever somebody has something, the other person will kind of start it for us. Like we know I'm gonna start this, and then they're gonna go. It might be Dog will say, Here's a graphic, and I'll say, Okay, let me add this stuff on, or here's my newsletter. And so we always know like the other person is just the starting block to build it. And and to truly innovate, that needs to be your mindset. Is we're just the first person is the starting block for the idea.

The Real Cost Of Avoidance

Dr. Leah OH 18:29

Yeah, yeah. And I I really love that John. Cause I think there's a gift, and when you you're evolving and you're looking back at the breadcrumbs of where you started and where you are, and again, there's a lot of tension that has taken place, but it's also led to all of that growth. So let's think about avoidance. And on this show, we talk a lot about the bottom line cost of poor communication. So I'm wondering from your perspective, what is this hidden tax an organization pays when its leaders are conflict averse or really prioritize politeness or niceness over clarity? I know you kind of talked to that already, but what do you see? What else comes along with that, that type of culture?

Dr. Jen Fry 19:11

I'm gonna push back. I don't know if it's a hidden tax. I think the reality is everyone knows it's a tax that's occurring. It's that they are so conflict avoidant, they would rather lose than not pay the tax. Right? They would rather, because to be conflict to not be conflict avoidant is a pretty strong thing. And and here's what I say by that is that if you are a boss that's conflict avoidant, all of your employees are gonna be conflict avoidant. Because they're not gonna, you won't give them the opportunity to engage in conflict.

Dr. Leah OH 19:47

Yeah, right?

Dr. Jen Fry 19:48

Like you won't, you're gonna consistently stop it over and over and over again. So the first tax will say is that your conflict, your your employees can't engage in conflict, they can't innovate. Uh I think the second thing that's a hidden tax is that their relationships are not gonna be deep. There's a beautiful quote, I love it. And if you don't have that depth of relationships, I can't call you at six o'clock on Sunday to be like, Leah shit, I screwed up. And they'll be like, God damn it, Jenna, yeah, yeah. Let's figure this out.

Dr. Leah OH 20:28

Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 20:29

There's not that. Because what happens if I call Leah at five, a she's not answering her phone.

Dr. Leah OH 20:34

Yep.

Dr. Jen Fry 20:35

And if she does, she's so afraid that she doesn't want to get involved.

unknown 20:39

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 20:39

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 20:40

Because we know our boss can come down on us with confidence. I think the next thing that happens is that you have organizational culture of people just walking on eggshells and not saying the thing. Because they're so afraid that they know that they'll get their hand smacked if they say the thing. So they're not gonna say anything.

Dr. Leah OH 21:00

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 21:01

I know people who are working with CEOs and they're having to tell them no, and the CEOs are getting mad because people don't want pushback, right? People don't want pushback, they want whatever they say to ride. And so then maybe one of the last things is that what happens with conflict avoidant people is that when you have people that truly engage in conflict, they become the villain, right? They become the villain because they oh great, what does Leah want to fight about now? Yeah, what problems does Leah have now, right? And that type of language that makes Leah the villain. And you're just like, I'm just trying to figure out this situation. I'm just trying to get clarity so we can do our job. But the language that is creating the culture is this conflict avoidant that is not, I'm not directly telling you Leah to not engage in conflict. I'm just making it so miserable that you don't want to.

unknown 21:59

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 22:00

Yep. Yep. And I love too how you are saying it's not a hidden tax. We know it. We're we're willing to pay it because the alternative has more of social cost.

Dr. Jen Fry 22:11

Yeah, a hundred percent. And people don't want the social cost. You know, yeah. I said I'm okay being the villain. Like I've said that okay. Like you think I'm okay with that. And because I've come to realize that I can't be who I'm gonna be, and that everyone needs a villain because and they want a reason why they're not doing that. And I'm okay with that because I know the truth. I'm also 45 and I've worked, I own my own companies. Some people who are younger, they can't afford that. And that's why I tell people is that you have to be able to know at that point in your life what you can really afford. And it might be that you see things going wrong, and you've tried to talk about before, and you knew what was gonna happen, and now you're like, hell no. And not only am I not talking about it, five o'clock comes, but like there's um, yep, there's the funny Instagram videos where the person will like be on the phone and they'll be like, I actually love this job. And they'll be talking, they'll be helping a customer. Yeah, and five hits and they slam their computer and they're like, Yep. I think it's the funniest thing. But that's the truth, right? That's the absolute truth, is that you have these situations where people they don't want to be around, they're going to stop that at five because that cost of what of how they're being treated, and they're like, I'm not gonna deal with it, I'm gonna do my job, I'm not gonna cause any waves, and I will be gone the second five o'clock hits.

Dr. Leah OH 23:43

Exactly. Yeah, yep, yep. It is uh that assessment, and you're right, and sometimes that costs are like not in a position to pay it.

Dr. Jen Fry 23:50

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 23:51

And I get that. And that oh, sorry.

Dr. Jen Fry 23:53

Can I just add on to that? Yeah. I try and be very transparent. So I was a college coach for 15 years, and I decide to leave. And when I decide to leave, I also own two properties, and so I made sure to save money so that if anything went wrong, I could pay pay for that. And I left, I didn't know what to do, and then I ended up getting a job. And so, whenever anyone tells me about, like ask me about entrepreneurship or asking me, should they leave, I say, I don't, I'm not gonna tell you, like, quit your job, go into entrepreneurship, because you got two kids, you got a mortgage, you can't, you care, take your mom, right? Like, you do all that. I I would be doing people a dishonor if I was like, nah, you got this idea. What's the old saying? You leave your nine to five to work 24-7. That is entrepreneurship. Yes, right. That is it. Yeah, and so that's why I try and be very honest. And so when people come to me about conflict of should I leave, I'm like, how bad is it? Do you have another job lined up? Because what is it? You can the best time to get jobs when you have a job. Yes, exactly. Right? Like, I'm not if if it's not bad, it's annoying, and you're a poor job, stay there. Exactly. Yeah, don't like, especially in this economy, don't leave 80% job to go do a 20% job.

Boundaries That Protect Relationships

Dr. Leah OH 25:15

Exactly. Yep. So let's look at boundaries now. And so I know you have this new book out. I said no, and it's about standing up for yourself without the guilt. And I love that. Awesome. Yes. And in corporate environments where we're always throwing, we're like lobbing it around, be a team player. You know, it's code for don't have boundaries. How can a leader communicate their own boundaries without damaging professional relationships?

Dr. Jen Fry 25:44

You know, I think that's a very, that's a very interesting topic. And I say that because, especially now, given unemployment, what's going on, it's almost the expectation like if you won't keep your job, you better not have boundaries.

Dr. Leah OH 26:01

Yep. Yep, exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry 26:04

And and so it gets to be one of the things I think is to front load and be proactive. And a lot of people don't think about that. And so what happens is that they're not proactive with it, and then all of a sudden it's like, well, I can't be available now, versus you know, telling people I will not be available after five on these days, or I'm not gonna be available for these things. I'll when I get back into the office in the morning, I'll do X, Y, and Z. But really be proactive and telling people about your availability and to give them an idea of what things to contact you and what things not to contact you. Because I I will be transparent. I think it's hard, and I get and people can do what they want, but to have the blanket, I will never answer my five after my phone after five. Yeah, like you can like I would say you can do what you want, boo. Yeah, and that just is a it's a very hard line, I think, especially when you're managing people.

Dr. Leah OH 27:00

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 27:01

It's a very hard. But if they have an ability to know, here are the things I can call and ask about. You know, and also there was a phrase I was I don't know what I was watching, but they said, is it an emergency or just urgency? Oh, I like that. Yep. Well, and having that conversation, yeah. Many times it's just urgency.

Dr. Leah OH 27:26

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 27:28

Very rarely in jobs now is it an emergency. And like depending on whose job, if something crazy happens, well, maybe for the communications person, it's an emergency. Yeah. Different positions, different things. But really getting to have people understand is it an emergency or is it just urgency? But also with that, even if it's an emergency, what is it that you think I can do or we can do in this scenario? Yeah. Is it that it's an emergency, but in reality, we just need to prep for tomorrow. Like having those type of conversations to get people to really think if it's an emergency or is it just urgency and what does that mean for what needs to occur? Because sometimes what happens is that it's people's anxious, their anxiety calling.

Dr. Leah OH 28:29

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry 28:31

And and I've had to pay attention to that with my team of if I'm anxious about something, I I just need to do it. They don't need to do it. Or put in Slack a bunch of notes so that they can get to it first thing in the morning. Right. And so thinking of stuff of that nature versus me saying at 10 o'clock, this needs to be done. I'm like manic and frantic.

Dr. Leah OH 28:55

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 28:56

I can do it myself, or add the notes that, and then we can hit it first thing in the morning.

When Conflict Triggers Trauma Responses

Dr. Leah OH 29:00

Exactly. I love that. And that's a really nice nice segue because I know, Jen, you combine leadership strategy with this deep understandings of humans and of course the traumas that we carry with us. So I'm wondering from your perspective, and especially in terms of communication, you know, how can a leader adjust when they realize there's a certain conflict or maybe approach a way they approach conflict, it's triggering maybe a deeper trauma-based reaction in an employee.

Dr. Jen Fry 29:30

Can you repeat that again so I can just sit with it?

Dr. Leah OH 29:32

Yeah. So I'm wondering, you know, if you're a leader and you're engaging in discussing attention or trying to resolve a conflict, but you're starting to look at an employee and realizing that it's probably triggering something deeper for them and maybe a trauma-based reaction. What does that leader do in that moment? How do they adjust their response? Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 29:58

So I think there's a few things. I think it's you first, you don't want to be like, I see this is traumatic for you. Don't do that. Don't do that. But it can be where you just say, can we take a pause? I think right now, and not just saying, You're getting really emotional, Leah. I think you're getting really emotional. Not that, but like, yeah, I think we just need to take a pause so that we can both have a breath. Let's and let's bring it back. You know, let me look on my schedule. We can bring it back in 10 minutes, an hour, but let's bring this back. And so you're giving both of you time to just breathe. And it's like, and not a like, I'm not trying to fire you, nothing. I just think we both need to just pause with that. And I think it's also a big part of that supervisor being able to understand their own emotions and what's going on in that situation. The hard part is when we're talking about that type of stuff, is that I don't want it to be where you stop naming the thing. Because that can tend to happen. Well, maybe if I just say it this way, and again, you water it all the way down. No, you still have to say the thing, but you can also preemptive, hey, this is gonna be a little hard, but we're gonna work together and manage it.

Dr. Leah OH 31:09

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 31:10

And you're preemptive, like you know, I know this can be hard, I know this can be frustrating, whatever it is, and you're preemptively explaining it and naming the thing, versus again trying to water it down, and it ends up being that they don't even know what what they're brought in for, they don't know what the problem is, that's when it's the worst thing. So I would say those are probably two things that can help out. And depending on how it ends and how your relationship is, I always think it's worth to say, hey, I think this kind of maybe bothered you a little bit more than you anticipated. I'm not sure if you have a therapist, but if you don't, I think it might be a good thing just to have a conversation to help you better understand that. Because sometimes, you know, I think we've all been in the middle of it, of this is making me more upset. And it's like, why is this making me more upset than I'm realizing? And we don't, we don't know why. And so, how do we have that conversation of like this seems to have made you way more upset than the topic? Or is there other stuff we don't know about? Right? Like, what are the layers to it that might be occurring?

Dr. Leah OH 32:21

Yeah, yeah, that's really, really helpful. I really like in and it's so simple too, right? That idea of a pause is something where people are saving face, we're helping to de-escalate the moment and letting people come back together. And that's a nice I wanted to think about, you know, those moments in meetings when someone is heated, right? It may be a perspective, it's starting to become more personal. So I'm wondering, Jen, what are, you know, one or two go-to, maybe it's a phrase or an action that a leader can use to de-escalate a situation or address a person who seems to be really upset.

Dr. Jen Fry 33:00

So I think there are kind of two aspects of it is that first, are we naming the person who's upset, or are we naming the problematic thing that was said? And if that was said, so I think there's there's layers to this. I think the first thing is that if the if because you had mentioned kind of people going personal, if something was said that's going personal, and as a leader, you wait to see the person it was said to, what's their response? And if they're like, hey, that was personal, you know, then allow them the space to say something. You're not coming in like, you know, captain save a person. But if you notice that it keeps going on, that's when you're like, hey, I'm gonna pause this. I understand, John, you're frustrated, but we're not gonna be personal. So if you need to take a breather a breather and we can come back to this, but we're not gonna name call, we're not gonna make it personal. Yeah, and yeah, no, I am yes, you are. The thing that you're saying somehow team is personal. So if we need to come back, we can come back. And you you stop it, you nip in the butt, and you name what it is. Because what I'll tendency is some people be like, hey, hey, hey, we're not gonna do that. Do what? Yeah, some people might think it's a conflict, some people might think it's a thing. What are we not gonna do?

Dr. Leah OH 34:12

Exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry 34:13

And so you name what is going on and what the specific behavior is. We're not gonna sit there and and tell someone that everything that they did, everything that messed up with this is their fault. We're not gonna do that. Exactly. And so you name the exact behavior of what's going on. Yeah. And one of the things that Don and I, I think do well is that if we're mad and we have to take a pause, we can trust each other that we're gonna have the conversation. Yep. And I don't think many people have that, right? They'll get mad, they'll have the pause, and they they use it as a time to never talk about it again. Yep. Versus the ability to have the pause and know that we're gonna come back and do this. And we're gonna come back and finish the conversation. And that's where a lot of people have problems is that they they get mad, they have the pause, life happens, maybe they do good on the next project and they don't talk about the thing. And how do we make sure even if everything is good and dandy, we still talk about the thing?

Dr. Leah OH 35:13

Exactly. Yeah, because you're like the elephant in the room is still in the room, whether we acknowledge it or not.

Dr. Jen Fry 35:19

Just because it's under the rug doesn't mean it's not still in the room.

Build Your Feel Bad Muscle

Dr. Leah OH 35:22

Yeah, exactly. So, Jen, one thing that you talk about, and I love this, is this idea of the importance of staying unbothered by others' feelings when setting boundaries, and that's so important. And I think this can be hard for empathetic leaders in particular. So, how do you communicate empathy while still holding a firm line that that's not inviting negotiation?

Dr. Jen Fry 35:46

I had a phrase, I I so I said that you have to build your feel-bad muscle. Because what tends to happen is that an empathetic will be like, I just feel really bad. You have to build your feel bad muscle. Like you have to be okay and be able to feel bad and not have action with it. You have to be okay to be able to sit with it and to not make your feel bad have to be something. You need to be able to be like, man, I feel really bad that I have to set the boundary that I'm missing this thing because I have to get my kids recital. And I like it's okay that I feel bad. Yeah, right. It's okay. I understand that, versus I feel bad, so I'm gonna move everything around to make it happen. No, you can feel bad and just feel bad, but then still know you made the best decision.

Dr. Leah OH 36:44

Yeah, I love that. That is so important. I think that's something I was just thinking of what a healthier work environment would look like if everyone learned that earlier on and recognizing like it's okay to feel bad and know that I still made the best choice. And when everyone has built up that muscle, right? Then we we naturally have more empathy built in to these relationships.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:13

Well, and I think the thing that people also know is if I can get you to feel bad enough, you'll do it. Yeah. Oh, that feels yucky. Yeah. You'll finally do it.

Dr. Leah OH 37:23

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:24

I am now the queen of if someone says no, I'm like, yo, they said no.

Dr. Leah OH 37:29

Yep.

Dr. Jen Fry 37:29

Because what people try and do is they'll try and keep going and keep trying. And it's like, okay, you said no. Okay. Yep. And and I think that's the thing is that some people have been like, surprise. Okay, you said no. Like, I ain't got time. Yeah. Yeah. So to be able to understand that if I can make you feel bad enough, you're still gonna do it. So I'm gonna make you feel bad. Oh man, I just wish you could do and that they right, they do all that stuff. And no, no, no, yeah. And so you have to build that feel bad muscle. You have to be okay with feeling bad and not having action behind it.

Dr. Leah OH 38:01

Yep, so powerful. I promise you, Jen, that one's that one's gonna stay with me.

Dr. Jen Fry 38:06

Yeah, I like and there have been times. So helpful. Yeah. Like everyone, I just feel so horrible. Oh, it's okay. Like, it's I'm glad you feel bad. I'm glad you wanted to do it. You have emotions, yeah. Exactly. I'm so glad. And it doesn't mean you still have to do it because there have been times. For instance, yesterday I'm on this board and they have this event in DC, and I had flown back home yesterday. And I and it's like about a 45-minute train ride to DC. I'm a 10-minute walk, but still, I mean, I have to make sure everything's going. I had appointments and stuff having to go, and I was like, Matt, you can't go there. I feel like I feel bad. I'm like, but I had tickets to this event and I can feel bad, but still go to my event and do my things versus rearranging my whole schedule. Yeah. It's okay if I feel bad. Like, yeah, it's okay. It's okay if you feel bad.

Better Meetings For Diverse Perspectives

Dr. Leah OH 38:59

Exactly. I love it. And I love thank you for sharing that example. I I think that's so helpful. So, Jen, with your Gen Fry Talks, you help organizations harness diverse perspectives. And I'm wondering, how does a leader communicate through some friction that might naturally arise when we have diverse teams? And like, how do we help them arrive at having these thoughtful conversations, you know, embracing differences to lead to better decisions rather than siloing?

Dr. Jen Fry 39:28

Yeah, I think it's that when we have the point where voices are coming in, that we don't stop them from coming in. It was funny, I was listening to something and it said, you know, if you want curiosity, don't stop when you know, say you're in a meeting, and I think we've all been there. We're in a meeting, and the meeting comes, it's an hour, it's it's supposed to be an hour, it ends up being an hour and a half, it's two hours. No one wants to be in there again, right? Like, let's we've all been there, no one wants to be in there. And then at the end, guess what? You have that one person. Yeah, it's always, always and what do all of us do? Yeah, right? We're all like, are you serious? Like, are you? Yeah, and we're all like, you gotta be, you gotta be crapping me right now. And you know it's the person, they're gonna have a long and so I think with that example, here's a few ideas I would have. A, you gotta manage your damn time better. Yeah. Because if you're over, you're doing everyone a disservice and it's unfair to everyone. Yeah because now no one wants to ask some people gonna have some amazing questions, they don't want to ask it because everyone wants to leave, and no one's going to invite the conversation in the way it should be. So you need to do a better job of managing your time. The second thing is allow questions throughout the process, but they have to be actual questions and some maybe with some solutions. Because if people just want to have friggin' commentary, we can tell that.

Dr. Leah OH 41:06

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 41:06

But if it's actual questions, actual, you know, things that's gonna make this better, that's a different story. And I think that's the thing about it, is that some people don't a, like I said, the managers go so long that everyone is so frustrated by the time the ending. It's an hour and a half, it's it's an hour meeting, that's an hour and a half. Yeah, everyone's looking at their watches, they got stuff to do, they've moved meetings, all of that stuff, like they don't have time. Exactly. You have to, if you want innovation, you've got to respect people's time, damn it. You gotta make sure that this meeting isn't 13 hours that it should have been shorter. And you and now you're wondering why people don't want to ask questions because everyone wants to leave. Leave.

Dr. Leah OH 41:56

Exactly.

Dr. Jen Fry 41:56

Everyone wants to go. Yeah. So I think that type of stuff.

Dr. Leah OH 41:59

Uh-huh.

Dr. Jen Fry 41:59

And I think it's also, you know, when you're talking about innovating on something, it really is the questions that you're you're not asking are stopping the innovation. So say we're talking about this, these earbuds, my little French fry earbuds. Yeah. And instead of being like, okay, y'all, what do we think about it? Well, what do you mean? Instead of that saying, okay, friends, what do we think about the top making easy access to open source? What do we think about the easy way of grasping it? What do we think about the easy way of plugging in? What do we think about the for the little hook thing? And be descriptive to get people what how can we do it better? Who, whose experience are we maybe missing?

Dr. Leah OH 42:46

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 42:47

You know, and so I'd be able to say, well, you know, I think the first thing I would say is that in this, you can't see the light to see if it's charging. So how like how do we make that be seen? Do we need to put a hole there? What do we need to do? And so you're talking through it versus it's okay, what we need to do, and you're asking this big question versus maybe narrowing on it.

Advice For Leaders And Employees

Dr. Leah OH 43:07

Excellent. So, Jen, I have two final questions for you. They they work together. This is the way we end all episodes of the communicative leader. So the first part is, you know, what is the tip, the challenge, the advice for our titled leaders out there? And then the second part, what is your advice for our employees across all industries and ranks in terms of, you know, that advice tip or challenge?

Dr. Jen Fry 43:34

So my advice for leaders who are titled is the next 30 days, see how your your staff handles conflict. Like literally just start paying attention. Yeah. See how it handles it. How when do they bring you in? When do they CC you on? What happens when two people disagree? Just for 30 days, have it. I just need to see how everyone handles conflict. That'll be my first piece. My for them, my piece for employees, staff, that type of stuff, is no conflict through Slack email or text. Face to face or the or the conversation as soon as possible. Because if you have it in Slack or Teams or whatever your messaging devices, you now have a show that everyone is watching.

unknown 44:19

Yeah.

Dr. Jen Fry 44:20

You know, you we all sat there and watched two people back home and we're like, and then someone adds someone adds a check mark, and now it's just fuel. And then there's side conversations. Now baby, pull it off as fast as possible. Yeah. So then this way you can get tips fixed.

Dr. Leah OH 44:36

Uh-huh. Yep. I love that. It's really helpful advice. And you're right. And I think so many people haven't, especially our entitled leaders. I mean, entitled leaders have so many things on their plates, never ending, but taking the time to observe how conflict is presenting, when, where, is really, really powerful data, right? To understand and move forward with.

Dr. Jen Fry 45:01

Yeah. So if you realize that every single conflict in the office you were being CC'd on, well, that tells you what's going on. If you see that people aren't talking about the thing, that people are exposed, like just take 30 days and say, how does how is conflict happening? Yeah. If there's no conflict, then there's a conflict.

Final Thanks And Sign Off

Dr. Leah OH 45:20

Exactly. Yes. Jen, this was such an insightful conversation. I've learned so much. I know I'm going to take away and start integrating so many of your tips. So I know it's really going to help our listeners. So thank you for sharing your time and expertise with us.

Dr. Jen Fry 45:35

Of course, Doc. I appreciate you having me on here.

Dr. Leah OH 45:38

All right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. Looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.