The Win-Win Leader: Building a Culture Where Working Parents Thrive with Dr. Rosina McAlpine

Work doesn’t stop when school pickup starts and parenting doesn’t pause when the first meeting begins, yet most workplaces still communicate like employees can cleanly separate the two. That gap is where burnout, stress, and quiet quitting grow, especially for working parents carrying a second shift managers never see. We sit down with Dr. Rosina McAlpine, founder of Win-Win Parenting, to talk about why family-friendly leadership is not a perk, it’s a serious retention and performance strategy.

We get practical fast: how to run a working parent risk assessment, why averages hide the real problem, and how to gather safer data through anonymous surveys and aggregated EAP insights. Rosina also shares the WINS method and the leadership moves that bring it to life, including manager training, culture building, and a feedback loop that tracks return on investment over time. If you’re searching for actionable ideas on employee wellbeing, psychosocial safety, and leadership communication, this is a clear blueprint.

We also talk about the human side of it: how leaders can use simple storytelling to make flexibility feel safe, why one-off “family-friendly days” miss the point, and how equity beats one-size-fits-all support across life stages. You’ll leave with language you can use, metrics you can measure, and a stronger case for why supporting working parents strengthens the future workforce too. If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with a people leader, and leave a review with the most useful change your workplace could make.

Transcript

Why Parenting Belongs At Work

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. We've all heard the buzzwords, right? Work-life balance, bringing your whole self to work. But for the millions of working parents in the U.S., the whole self is often exhausted, overwhelmed, and navigating a second shift at home that our managers never see. The Surgeon General recently warned that workplace well-being is a top priority, yet most of our leadership communication still treats parenting as a personal problem rather than a professional reality. If your team is drowning in family-related stress, you aren't just losing productivity, you can be losing some of your best people. Today's guest is an internationally recognized expert who helps organizations bridge this gap. Dr. Rosina McElpine is the founder of Win-Win Parenting and also the creator of the Wins method. She works with HR leaders and executives to move beyond office perks and toward a culture of genuine family-friendly leadership. In today's episode, we're diving into the working parent risk assessment, how to use storytelling to destigmatize flexibility, and why the way you communicate about family might just be your best retention tool. Let's dive in and have some fun. Dr. Rosina, welcome. I'm so excited for our conversation today. This is an aspect of organizations like you're going to point out that we often don't talk about or we try not to talk about, or we try and separate. And you have been featured on the Today Show, in the New York Post, among many other really reputable and important industry pieces. And this is because you bring together that intersection of work and family. And here in the US, you know, we often treat work as one silo family or life as the other. And I'm wondering, in your experience, why is that siloed communication style actually a liability for today's leaders?

The Cost Of Siloed Lives

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 2:28

The real basic question, answer to that question is first of all, that no longer reflects our reality. We absolutely know that people are whole people and they bring their whole selves at home and they bring their whole selves to work. If we pretend, because that's what we're doing, that you can, you know, at home you're home and you don't have any work and you're at work and you don't have any home life, what we're asking people to do is to work as if they don't have a family and run a family as if they don't have to work. And we know today most families have both parents working or parents who are working. So what that results in is burnout, stress, and mental health issues because of the big challenge that we know of managing and juggling work and family life. And we've got a lot of statistics on that.

Dr. Leah OH 3:24

Yeah, and I think too, you know, my role as a leadership communication scholar, I think about modeling. And if we're at home pretending work doesn't exist, or if we're at work pretending home doesn't exist, what is how are we helping anyone? We are not doing anyone a service in that way.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 3:41

Absolutely not. We just add extra pressure. And, you know, the the problem then, you actually make it an individual problem instead of a systemic problem. It is a systemic problem.

Invisible Hazards For Working Parents

Dr. Leah OH 3:53

Yeah, exactly. And so let's think about that mental load. And I have, you know, and I was preparing for our conversation, I put invisible in quotes because again, I think it's this thing that we pretend it's the elephant in the room, but it's it's we can all see that we're just not talking about it. And so a lot of our your work, you talk about this mental strain that working parents face. And from a leadership perspective, I was hoping you could tell us what are some of these invisible hazards, maybe it's time pressure, emotional fatigue that managers should be aware of when checking in with their team members.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 4:27

I've been looking at data from around the world, everywhere. As you can hear from my exit, it's Australia. So, but whether you look at Australia, Europe, US, Canada, New Zealand, we've recently got some data from Asia Pacific as well. And the story is very clear. So the those hazards are those psychosocial risks, and what they are are stress, fatigue, burnout, mental health. And we know that all of those have a negative impact on employee well-being. And I think rates for working parents of stress, fatigue, and burnout higher than people who have don't have caring responsibilities or don't have children.

Dr. Leah OH 5:32

Yeah, I mean that that makes so so much sense, right? Or thinking about I clock, clock out of one job to start my next job, and then you're never off the clock. So right, yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

The WINS Method Framework

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 6:07

Exactly what's going on, and we know that that impacts physical and mental well being. So we created the wins method because we absolutely know that when we have a framework or a structure, it not only helps the leaders, but it actually helps the working parents as well, which we can talk about. So the wins method is simple, it's just four pillars. Obviously, we called it the wins method because it's win-win parenting. Our basic premise is that it's a win for working families and a win for business. Because if it's not a win in both domains, it's not sustainable. That's straightforward. So the wins method are four pillars. The first one is we know that how we achieve that. That's the next part, which is the I. The I is individual empowerment. When we've got employees who are empowered, you know, I got I'm good at home, I'm good at work, I can manage work and family. That's the second pillar. The third pillar is we cannot make this an individual problem. And and this is where that's very powerful for working parents. If this was oh well, we've just got someone who systems, support mechanisms. And the last part, I added this because we have to come back to this whole concept of social responsibility. Why? You know, we talked about that a lot a long time ago. My background is I worked in academia for 30 years in the business school, and so you know, this whole idea of corporate social responsibility, social responsibility was a big thing, but it feels like it's kind of dropped off the face of the earth. No one talks about it anymore. But it is huge when it comes to working parents. Why? Working parents contribute to the economy through work, but they also contribute to the future of society. If we do not have people who are having children, raising children, we don't have a next generation. And if our working parents are not well, they're not productive, they don't have good mental health, physical health, we don't have a good productive next generation. So that's why the S is that that last big concept that we need to get. Let's get back to yes, beautiful working parents are, you know, supporting the economy and they're also supporting the next generation. So I think that's just the overall framework. But if at some stage during this talk you'd like to talk about, so okay, I'm a leader, what do I do to achieve that framework to have the the wins uh pillars in my organization? I'm very happy to talk about that as well.

Dr. Leah OH 9:56

Yep.

Data First Leadership Actions

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 10:11

And then this is holistic, but exactly, and that's why we we have to have a framework, you know, especially in like academic. I like to have a nice framework, but then it makes sense, you know. W equals I and S, right? We got but if you're a leader, that's great, aspirational, but let's go to the actual practical steps. The first thing in organizations is to collect data, it has to be a data-driven approach. So the first one is find the data on risks for different segments of your organization. I was just looking at data on stress, burnout, etc. And when we looked at it holistically, what happens is it actually covers happening when you've got a non-parent and a parent. It averages it all out. But when you pull it apart, you're like stress levels through the roof, not so much, burnout through the roof, not so much. So, number one, identify your data because we know that what gets measured gets money. The next thing is we have to train our leaders, we have to entrain and empower our leaders. It's a huge thing being a leader, anyway. Like we know it's such a big responsibility. But what if so you start creating targeted programs and resources? The next thing is there's family-friendly workplace and the culture, if it's not actually a safe place to say, yes, we've got flexibility, but if it's not a truly family-friendly workplace and you're frightened if I say to my manager, my child's getting an award this morning, there's this Christmas play, or you know, I'm a teacher, or my child's sick today, I don't have emergency childcare. So if you can have all the policies and procedures in the world, if if an individual who's got caring responsibilities can't actually use them for fear of I'm not going to get promoted, I'm going to get seen as a problem, I'm going to lose my job, then it's not a family-friendly workplace. So actually having a real community for working parents. And then the final one, which is the loop that brings you back to collect data, is return on investment. It makes no economic sense if this doesn't have a benefit to the organization and to the individual. So this is where we have to monitor, we have to report, and then that data will send you back to leadership training new programs. You know, you've got that nice feedback loop. So that's success.

Dr. Leah OH 13:18

Yeah.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 13:19

Exactly.

Storytelling Makes Flexibility Safe

Dr. Leah OH 13:20

So I hope that's that's helpful. Bringing in stories, telling it.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 14:13

So it's you know, you're not like a therapist or a counselor, you know, being intrusive, but knowing that you can have that open conversation, that there is the opportunity to say, you know, my child's sick, you know, and and brainstorm ideas of what we can do. The next thing that's really helpful, this is huge, is what if the leaders have KPIs set around working parent well-being, working parent support? And that's that's something not many people talk about. You know, as a leader, you are empowered if you have a KPI around that, because you can't give responsibility without the resources to achieve it. So that really empowers leaders most important, and I've been doing this for over a decade now.

Dr. Leah OH 15:38

Yeah.

Beyond Perks Toward Real Support

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 15:48

Needs is completely different to a parent who has a neurotypical child and doesn't have the same challenges. Someone who's going through divorce or someone who's in the early stages versus the teenage stages. So going back to this point, there was a request to put in a program for additional needs. Now, a lot of people would have kept that private. A lot of people might not say, I have a child with additional needs, that that's a private thing. But what they did in the invitation is that the actual partner in this law firm had a child who had multiple sclerosis and had additional needs, right, throughout their life. And so in the invitation it said, and he's going to talk about his it lived that by this time his daughter was actually at university. So he was able to share. So you can imagine, you can imagine the difference in turnout, in openness, in being able to have that conversation with the partner in the whole of the law firm is saying, I get, I get you, I hear you, I know what it's like. So that's probably the biggest part that makes parents feel safe when there is empathy and lived experience of the leadership. And it doesn't have to be, you know, that dramatic, which is what I'm talking about, but actually writing to your team and saying, I'm coming in at 10 this morning because I've got a teacher, a meeting with the my child's teacher. I'm trying to find emergency child care. All of a sudden you've given to a thing. On the radar, thank you. Yeah, and that's why. So I'll be honest with you, I'll just be frank with myself. When I first started in this, I was myself at in the business school at the University of Sydney doing my thing, accounting, right? That's what I was doing. But part of my research was family integration, gender equality, which we know we've got a long way to go. And at that time, me, you know, this whole concept of well-being programs was just coming in, you know. But then you looked at what they were, and you go, You can't tell a working parent, why don't you just go and meditate for five, you know, for an hour or go up to the gym or what, what where are you gonna put that little toddler that how are you gonna peel that toddler off your leg? Or what are you gonna do teenage? Right, you know, what are you gonna do? So that was when we had to think bigger. And in those days, I used to talk about you know, if you have well, competent, confident employees who can manage work and family life, good for families, good for business. But now say no, no, no kids, no future. You know, those people who say, Well, I don't want to, you know, compensate for you or overcome you. What about when that who doesn't have children needs a podiatrist or a baker or a doctor or a someone in the future? We can't think like that. And that's that siloed, you know, small thing that you're talking about. So, yes, let's put it on KPIs, let's put it on the radar with social well-being that every time, you know, let's applaud working parents. I always say, Woo-hoo, you, you know, thanks for contributing to the economy, thanks for contributing to the future of humanity. Like, you know, it's a very different picture. So now I have the courage to tell these stories, whereas 10 years ago you would not have heard me say that because people would have been like, What? That's a step too far. Now that's like really pushing the boundaries.

Dr. Leah OH 20:45

Take my lot.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 21:00

Yeah, and I think that's the empowering part for parents because if parents feel lonely, very lonely, a little bit later in our conversation, I hope to share the feedback that we get when they're not lonely. I ran a people leader program a few months ago because you know, obviously that's part of our five commons, and just to let you know, have a free guide. I can send you the link, you can offer that to anyone who's listening. Yeah, so they can have that. It's you know, we've put it out there again from a social responsibility point of view. But what we can do is when we feel like we are making a contribution, when we don't feel like, oh, it's my problem, you are in such a better position for advocacy, right? And when you can, and I'll tell you what, just a simple thing you can do, you know, search internet for data on employees uh who have caring responsibilities, and you can see, hey, I'm not. Alone. This is not an individual problem. This is a systemic problem.

Dr. Leah OH 22:05

Yeah. Another thing you talk about and you've already and that easier for employees participate in this assessment. Are there other tips if you have leadership out there? Maybe they they don't have children or not yet, or they feel like things have been siloed, but they're hearing from their teams we need this. No, how do they what is their messaging? So this feels like a high trust measure.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 22:40

Rather there's two things to think about here. Number one, we want to position it as a system's problem. So we're gathering data because we realize that our system isn't supporting working parents. So we want this data to identify, and this is where making sure that it is anonymous, that it's a safe place to provide data. The other thing is, as we know, when we're creating surveys, if we don't have the data we need to make the right questions, so if you when you get these reports, we know what are the high-level stress, having work that you've got no control over, having too much work, having deadlines that are not easily met or impossible to meet, having timelines, having colleagues who are critical because you have different hours, you know, all things. So once you know some of the key measures of mental health, physical burnout, stress, work life. Most EAPs, employment assistance providers, are gathering data from what are the key incidences that are happening, and they gather that data and then they provide it back. Now we want our employment assistance provider to be gathering data on whether they're a working parent or not. So these are the sorts of things we can ask them because that's all private and confidential, and that cannot be in it can only be in just in aggregate. There's three beautiful ways you can gather data in a safe way to feel intrusive, but they actually feel like, oh, you're trying to figure out what is going to help working parents in terms of great employee there's a more traditional I I'm a white paper at the moment, a series of right white papers. So we're gathering data from mental health indices. And what we found for Australian working parents, and so it's the data I've got in front of me, we found out from the mental health index, we organization partners with a very EAP Telesealth. So they've got data from around the world. And so we were specifically writing white papers around working parents because of this stark issue. And let me tell you, it says 40%, and this is across the board, it goes, you know, 45, 43.

Dr. Leah OH 26:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just help me. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 27:54

Now, I always say it's a joke, but it's not a joke. Oh, okay. The kids are there on that day, but every other day we don't have to worry about them. They're only on the family friendly day. But the rest of the time, no problem, right? So what I try to say to organizations is if you want to embed well-being, you don't give a one-off programme. You don't go, could you go to the gym once and yep, you'll be right? I gave you that, I gave you that day. We're good now. We really want employees to embed practices for managing work and family life, whether it's you know, setting up routines, teaching their kids how to get themselves ready at night for the next morning. These seem like trivial things, but if you're fighting with your child every morning to get out the door, you're late for work, you're late for school, you're late for care, that's huge. That's very stressful. If you haven't got a good evening routine, so nobody is sleepy, has a big effect. So if we can have not just signal we're family-friendly, but actually have practical strategies, resources that are, I say, year-round, year long, which is exactly where the kids are. Year round, year long. And there's so many topics. That's what the competitive advantage is. Okay, now you've got one on bullying. Now you've got one on communication, as you said. Now we've got one on self-esteem and body image, especially like in the teen years. Now we've got one on supporting you to support positivity and mental health at home. You're like tick, tick, you know, like the university of the and work and family life. So that's why I say family-friendly leadership is a competitive advantage when there is true measured return on investment. And what we do know again from the research worldwide is that investing in employee well-being is much cheaper. You know, that whole adage prevention is better than cure. It's so much cheaper to help parents avoid mental health bullying, all of that, rather than okay, now we've got them in EAP with coaches and counsellors and psychologists and missing days of work. You know, that's so important. Don't get me wrong, please don't think I'm not saying that that's not important. But we can prevent it with, you know, and we'll be able to help a lot a lot more people with these preventative method measures than waiting till it's a problem.

When Jobs Create Family Stress

Dr. Leah OH 30:29

Exactly. Healthcare.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 30:56

This is why we need we can't talk about just a homogenous group of parents. Someone who has to get dressed in a uniform every time they're gonna leave the house. And if children are aware of that, that can just be a trigger straight away for wrap your legs around mum and dad's leg and don't let them go. If you know that your you know parent is in the emergency services, and of course you've seen on the news accidents, fire, you know, going into burning buildings, you know, you're scared every time that unit goes on. How do you talk to children about that? Now that's something another parent who goes into the office and types at a computer never gonna have a conversation about with their children. So that's from that side. The second side is when you're constantly living trauma, you very different view on your children and parenting, and it can actually, you know, that vicarious trauma can be brought home. And it's very important to make sure that we not that we identify so we can just give some hints. I know when we were working with the police, we had some parents who would sleep outside.

Dr. Leah OH 32:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 32:42

And the the other thing is they're just gonna need different a different kind of work family dynamic in the sense of your children might be like, Well, who's picking me up today? You know, do you know what I mean? So I talk about having an image like a picture on the fridge where every single day there's a picture of grandma, or there's a picture of mum and dad, or there's you get up in the morning and you go, guess what? Today it's grandma, tomorrow it's uh that one's this one's gonna be mum. And to make the unexpected expected, and so to have a little symbol where it goes, you know, like a little firework or whatever, something went wrong, and we can talk about something different. So there's a lot of different things that we have to think about when we have different roles. I hope that's sort of touched on it. There's more to it than that, but I hope it's touched on a little bit of that.

Dr. Leah OH 33:54

Exactly. Yeah, so we're gonna say another.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 34:36

And you know, we've we've worked with over a hundred thousand working parents over the years, and there's key things that come out. So I've pulled out some of the key things, categorized them, and I'll give you just one or two examples in each one. So the first thing that comes about is employees talk about the fact that you've given me practical strategies for managing work and family life. For example, balancing work and family life strategies really helped me cope. That's the word cope. Another one is the strategies for creating routines at home while managing a busy workload load have been invaluable. So these are the words we see. I yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 35:24

Yeah.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 35:38

I often feel torn because my manager about flexibility to better balance work and parenting. A proactive approach, these are the culture parts, and I say now I'm gonna add some culture parts. My employer providing this program demonstrates, and I think that's a very strong staying versus demonstrating a genuine commitment to family-friendly workplace culture. This is exactly the type of initiative that shows an organization understands the realities of working parents. Now, do you think that person's going to be more loyal and stay, or are they gonna go right? So, retention, these are the kind of culture retention things that are coming out. I've only got two more, but another one on retention is about loyalty. My workplace offering this program makes me proud. It's very heartfelt, isn't it? It makes me proud to work with what that shows me is, and I've seen this over the years, working parents want to do a good job. Let's enable them. And you know, seeing my employer invest in these sessions helps me to feel loyal and engaged at work. So, you know, these are the words that we want. And the final one is this has been helpful in managing my family life, which has a direct impact on my ability to work well. So they're tying the two together. So I just thought if I shared, and they're common things, like this is not this is not the one-off statement that you go, oh, that's a good one. I'll put that out for everyone to see too. These are the big chunks of things that we see. So, short term, that's what you're gonna start to see. Oh wow, thanks. That really helped me with bullying, that helped me with getting my routines in order. But long term, I'm I'm not going anywhere. What do we know about retention? People don't realize it affects the whole team. Yeah, yeah. Other people have got a cloak. We've got to find a new person which is very costly, we've got to retrain a new person, which is very costly, then we've got to make sure they're a fit, get them back into the team, and so that is our that's gonna be much more expensive than hey, we offer you parenting, you know, approach and work and family support so that you don't go anywhere. Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 38:36

So yeah. The pride, I think of or drop off.

Equity Across Life Stages

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 38:51

And I I'm able to balance focusing that help loyalty and the it's absolutely true, and we've seen it time and time again. And this is why I'll just quote a little bit more research. There was a Canadian study that was looking at the ROI on well-being programs, so it wasn't about working parents, it was just well-being, mental health, physical well-being. And what they showed is the longer the well-being program was in place, and they were specifically looking at two to three years, the greater the ROI, which of course makes sense. And and so that should be a number to show. And one of the things that I say is that because our organizations that we partner with see the difference that it makes, have pages and pages of feedback. As I said, we collect data, polls, um, and so we can offer you know more information. But what we see is they return year upon year because the working parents will say, This was so helpful. I hope it continues. This has made yeah. Yeah. Like, how do you walk that things that we need to do as leaders is frame our support around life stages and psychosocial safety, not parental status. In other words, this is not a parental status thing. This is life stages and psychosocial safety. For example, right now, although I've talked to you a lot about the data on working parents, if you also split the data into young people, they are idea, higher on uh financial stress, higher on. So we would then say life stages. So we are going to support you at different stages of your life, whether you're first entering the workforce, when you're you're leaving to have children or not, you know, you're uh you might have a care.

Dr. Leah OH 42:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Closing Guidance For Leaders

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 43:42

Yep. Right? So we have to identify that if we do what we see equal for everyone, we might actually unintentionally. Disadvantage those who have got the more complex demands. So we know that parents and carers have additional responsibilities, time pressure, emotional load, physical load, mental load. So we can't expect that they're going to get identical support. But to your point, we can't constantly say you don't have kids, so sorry, your weekend goes, right? Without saying, but you know what? To reward you for that, right? Again, equity, so not equality, but equity. How about you this that will you just have to give up your weekends, right? So we don't want to be disadvantaging anybody by advantaging another set of, you know, a group in our organization. But we know that when you look at the statistics, I was looking at the statistics in Australia on the number of people who have children and work. And it is super almost all people who have children work. There's only a small proportion who do not. So that is a life stage that has psychosocial safety risks. And as a and we can't just pull everyone out of the workforce and go, okay, sorry, we don't need you know you're parenting now. See you later, come back when you're not 17, 18 years from now, we'll see you back again. We can't do it economically, we can't do it, we can't do it financially, we can't do it. So that's how we do it. The final part, sorry about this thing, but I think it's important because we can't have that alienation, we can't have that negativity. When we do programs where leaders are actually informing, because they're trained, everyone about equity versus equality, about psychosocial risks, about workplace requirements to make sure everyone has the opportunity to work in the best way that they can. And then we go bigger and we go, no working parent, no future economy, no future generations. How about, how about we get cut them a bit of slack and we go, thank you, working parent, for doing two really, really hard things and juggling very complex competing demands. So when we change our mindset at that social level, which is why the wins method has the S at the end. The first thing I want to say is to leaders, thank you. Thank you, because a leadership position is not an easy position. So thank you for taking that role and for your empathy and care for the people that you have around you. You will be able to do your job much better if you have data and if you have those KPIs I was talking about. Your upper level management can't say anything if you're meeting those KPIs of supporting working parents, supporting your team, showing that long-term, hey, look, I haven't had any turnover. I don't, I have productivity, I don't have missed deadlines. So, first thing I would say is lead with empathy for yourself and for your team. Knowledge is power, data is power, because then what gets measured can get managed. Get yourself a KPI, and then you have no excuse for not working on that KPI. Exactly. And finally, what we were talking about before, we were talking about role model.

Dr. Leah OH 48:39

Excellent.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 48:40

So um Yeah, so for employees who are working parents, thank you. It's huge. You know, at the end now I can say our son is 18. Doesn't stop. It doesn't stop, right? It's different, right? But at every stage there are the challenges. Just do your best to take care of yourself. And I know that that sounds like a really strange place to start, but with this many years of experience with working parents, with as a working parent all the way through from tiny to now, if you have if you have an empty tank, if you're feeling alone, uninspired, tired, you don't have anything to give. So I always say to I say that whole concept of you know, oh, self is selfish. I say put selfish in the rubbish because that's where it belongs. And think about being self-ful. Because when you're self-ful, you can't help when you've got happiness inside them. When you've got love inside, it wobbles out. When you've got knowledge, it wobbles out. So I would say thank you for all you do. Thank you for contributing to the workforce and the future of humanity. Take care of yourself, and then you'll take care of those roles in a beautiful way. Be courageous, get the data you need, be seen, be heard, and make sure that you're you're taking care of yourself.

Dr. Leah OH 50:23

Yeah. Excellent. And that's so but I think parenting is is the first one of any I really like. Thank you first. How many of us don't rules, but particularly in that one, or it comes out, you know, in acknowledge.

Dr. Rosina McAlpine 50:56

I've loved our chat. Thank you for touching on all those tricky places because if we don't do that, if we don't have the courage to have these conversations, and even if we don't have answers, I think that's okay. If we touch on the problem, we can start to look for solutions. So thank you for opening up all those questions and thank you for letting me be on to have this conversation with you.

Final Thanks And Sign Off

Dr. Leah OH 51:20

I've loved it, which is so nice. Also, thank you. Thank you. All right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.