Leadership Beyond Boundaries: Building a Culture of Shalom with Dr. Kevin Foreman

Leadership doesn’t break down because people “can’t communicate.” It breaks down because trust gets thin, clarity goes missing, and the hard conversations never happen. I sit down with Dr. Kevin Foreman, known as the People’s Bishop, to talk about a different standard for leadership communication: shalom, a whole-life kind of peace where nothing is missing, nothing is lacking, and nothing is broken. That idea sounds spiritual, but the way Kevin uses it is intensely practical and results-oriented. 

We dig into how leaders build one cohesive voice across sectors without becoming performative, why progress beats perfection when you’re trying to launch a vision with zero initial buy-in, and how consistency becomes a brand people can rely on. Kevin also reframes “generational curses” in a way every organization will recognize: repeated dysfunctional patterns that quietly lead to failure. We talk about how to replace stale narratives with a new story people can believe in, and how values-based conversations help you confront gossip, misalignment, and underperformance without turning everything into a personal attack. 

Then we connect the dots between wellness, money, and boundaries. Kevin shares why “more is caught than taught,” how physical discipline communicates leadership before you ever say a word, and how financial anxiety can derail culture if leaders don’t teach alignment and meaning around resources. We close with sharp advice for titled leaders and for employees at every level, including what it really means to call the shots and take the shots. 

If you want better leadership, healthier culture, and clearer communication at work, listen now. Subscribe to The Communicative Leader, share this with a leader on your team, and leave a review telling us which idea you’re putting into practice first.

Transcript

Welcome And The Shalom Idea

Dr. Leah OH 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of The Communicative Leader. I'm your host, Dr. Leah O. We often talk about leadership in terms of strategy, metrics, and bottom lines, but at its core, leadership is a human endeavor. It's about shepherding people toward a shared vision and creating an environment where they can truly thrive. Bishop Kevin Foreman argues that true leadership communication is about establishing shalom, a state where nothing is missing, nothing is lacking, and nothing is broken. In many organizations, we see the opposite broken communication, lacking trust, missing clarity. To fix these organizational headaches, we have to move past superficial boundaries and engage in a kind of bold, practical, and honest dialogue that transforms lives and cultures. Today's guest is a true Renaissance man who has mastered the art of leading across diverse landscapes, from planting a thriving multi-generational church in a church planter's graveyard to coaching high-level executives and entrepreneurs. Bishop Kevin Foreman is a renowned pastor, success coach, and author of five books, including The Evolutionaries and Making Money Moves. Known as the People's Bishop, he has a unique ability to take complex, often taboo subjects and make them approachable for audiences of all pedigrees. In today's episode, we're diving into how to lead with shalom, the communication communication shifts required to break generational organizational curses, and how to build a culture of holistic success from the ground up. Let's dive in and have some fun. Hello and welcome to the communicative leader, hosted by me, Dr. Leah O'Millian Hodges. My friends call me Dr. O. I'm a professor of communication and a leadership communication expert. On the Communicative Leader, we're working to make your work life what you want it to be. So, Bishop, I'm so glad you're here. You're joining us today. And you know, you're bio, you do it all. You're a multidimensional man, a pastor, an entrepreneur, a success coach. So this is, I love this because I think so much of the messaging for leaders today is stay in your lane. And that's what you need to do to be effective. Yeah. But you are leading across sectors and using different languages. And as a leadership communication scholar, I love this. And I'm wondering, you know, how do you take all of these strengths that you have, these identities, and put them into one cohesive leadership voice?

One Voice Across Many Roles

Bishop Kevin Foreman 2:39

Oh my God, I love what you said. And I agree with you. A lot of times, to stay in your lane, just do this, focus on this, lock in on this. I think that robs us of the humanity of what we're doing. Because there's so many aspects. That's like I I look at like a butter knife. And uh, you know, everybody, I think at one point or another has had a door locked in your home or something. And that butter knife took on another role as the door open.

Dr. Leah OH 3:04

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 3:05

Which took on another role when you were dealing with a flathead screw or something as a screwdriver. That one thing, although it had the intended with the purpose of it or what it was intended and created to do, it's able to do other things and it can in fact do those things well. Now, I use that analogy because sometimes people think, well, I can only deal with butter, and that's it. And the reality is there's so many other things. And so for me, I had to adapt and both and the lifestyle approach versus an either four. The either four is so limiting. I think the challenge that many people have is how can everything get my focus? And I think the reality is everything won't get the same amount of focus, but everything doesn't need the same amount of focus.

Dr. Leah OH 3:50

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 3:50

There's certain things that when you set them in motion, they are able to run, they're able to flow, and you build systems, you build structures, you use strategy in order to set some of those things up. So does every day get 100% focus of me and all of the different things that I do? Absolutely not. But you know what does? Me. And because all of these things involve me, uh, I am able to output 100% or you know, as much as I can, I'll wish I'm gonna get better, of who I am into everything that I do. And for me, creating this cohesive thing was just about being myself because it's very difficult to have to get in character to go do something else. Get in character to go do something else.

Dr. Leah OH 4:29

Yep, exactly.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 4:30

So I just keep, I just at who I am and I do these different things. And to me, that has been just the most effective way for me to express all of the gifts, the talents, the skills, the abilities, and not lock myself into a box because somebody said that that's what I should use.

unknown 4:48

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 4:48

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that too, because then I it doesn't feel performative when you're showing up as yourself in all of these different arenas. Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 4:57

Yeah. And I think too, when you mentioned the performative piece, it's for many people it feels that way because using that analogy, like I'm doing this, so I used to do a lot of traditional TV. And tradition, of course, now everybody's podcasting and home studios and all that. But back in the traditional TV days, this wasn't that long ago. You know, you go and sit in a makeup room, they'd have the makeup artists, they get the oil off your forehead, they get you ready for the lights, they sit there, they're doing checks and all of that. And so what happens is it's like, okay, boom, lights, camera, action, I'm on. And that's not who you were on off camera. So it feels like you're putting out a lot of energy because you're not being authentically you in every space of person that you show up. So that that does feel performative, and that can feel drained.

Shalom As Results Oriented Leadership

Dr. Leah OH 5:39

Yeah, exactly. And so a follow-up for that, you have a philosophy of shalom. And I'm wondering how that informs the way you maybe speak to a CEO differently or maybe even similarly to the way you do your congregation.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 5:55

Great question. So that that's shalom is it's a Hebrew word. It means peace, but it but it means it's a it's a bit more than peace. It actually means nothing missing, nothing broken, nothing lacking, all is well. It's often the word that's used in scripture for prosperity. So a lot of times people think prosperity, they just think money. Money is a form of prosperity, but it's the lowest form of prosperity because it's a tool, it's a resource. It's like saying I have a million tools to do something versus um the thing that I did with that, those tools or what have you. So and in that, for me, I generally approach every conversation results-oriented. So as a leader, as a pastor, it's everything is results-oriented. Everything I teach, every counseling session is a coach of very successful individuals who, you know, we go through the process many times. For example, if it's business coaching, taking them from Genesis to I love seeing my students that one of my students has crossed the $8 million mark, and which was such a journey because when he came here a few years ago, he was at a half a million in like you know, three years, we've gotten him up to that. So I have the same type of conversation, results oriented. Some people like to talk for the sake of talking, they like to ideate for the sake of ideating. For me, that shaman word, nothing missing, nothing broken, nothing lacking, all as well, means let's get some results. Let's have something to show for what it is that we're doing. So it literally bleeds into everything that I do. I mean, down to friendships. My friendships are the exact same way. When we're on the phone, we, you know, you have human moments. And so I may be having a human moment, and they'll throw it back right back and they'll say, okay, so now what are we gonna do about it? And vice versa. They may be having a human moment, this and it's theirs, it's theirs, it's theirs, it's this, it's this, and then that started into, okay, great. Now, all right, now we've whined about it, and what are we gonna do about it?

Dr. Leah OH 7:37

Yes, yes. I love that. I love that action-oriented approach. And it you're not gonna get stuck, right? Or not for very long.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 7:43

Right, exactly, exactly. And I think that's the key. Keeping it moving. That's one of my life's mantras. Keep it moving, keep it moving. It becomes difficult to get a target that's always moving.

Winning Buy In With Consistency

Dr. Leah OH 7:54

Exactly. And so now I'm gonna talk about harvest. And you you founded this church in a region often called the church planter's graveyard, and you didn't have a financial benefactor. So you literally turn nothing into something so significant. So when a leader is trying to kind of sell, present a vision or culture shift with zero initial buy-in, from your experience, what's the first thing they need to change about their way they're speaking to their stakeholders to move them from skeptics to believers?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 8:27

Yes. I think first of first of all, it is having a clear idea on where you want to go and realizing that that clear idea is going to change. I think many people never ever start that conversation because they want perfection instead of progress. And so something that is a good plan that's executed is better than a perfect plan that is only talked about. And so it's about then the action. So, for example, I can remember the day we uh held our first interest meeting. It was in the clubhouse of where my condo was. And we gathered a bunch of people, and I said, This is what I want to do. The initial vision was something very, very different than what it is today. But I started, right? And so we gather all these people, we talk about what we want to do, we feed them. You know, people are a little bit more malleable to feed them.

Dr. Leah OH 9:22

Oh, yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 9:23

And uh, you know, and you give up, if you encourage, you know, give them something. People generally, when you give people something, they feel almost this level of indebtedness to at least hear you or at least to receive from you. And so we did that. I got up, presented this meeting, it was amazing. It was very well attended. In fact, we had overflow, and and so I presented something, and then we executed on what we presented. What I did was the best thing to answer your question is one, I remained consistent. People knew that even if where we were going changed, they knew that I was still gonna be at the front.

Speaker 3 9:57

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 9:58

They knew that I was still gonna be there. They knew they could depend on me. And that's become one of the staples of my brand, if you will, is that consistency. Like vision for this is gonna happen. It's gonna happen.

Dr. Leah OH 10:10

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 10:10

He may not do it the way he said he originally was gonna do it, right? It had to change because we're married to results, not the not the not the vehicle. Second thing that I would say that really taking people, and I love how you said it from skeptics to believers, is also then showing people look at what we're doing. So one of the things we often do is this thing called harvesting a glance, and we show all of what we've done, right? Because you've got people who are serving or bowing to me, as most would say. You have people who are giving and contributing to what we do. You have people who are, you know, participating in what we do in a variety of different ways. So here's what we've done. So I make it a point, and I did back then, I did it now. I'm too do it now, rather. To make a point, this is what we've accomplished, this is what we've done. You'd be amazed at how people, when they know that what they're doing is making a difference, they'll do it with a greater level of intensity, even in a volunteer space, even more so than they would in just be, you know, a staffer or executive or whatever it might be. One of the movies that I love to watch is the is Godfather. And I forget which one it is. And uh, I never watched it. My cousin said, but you gotta watch The Godfathers.

Speaker 3 11:17

Yeah. Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 11:17

And uh I said, these are long movies. And so we we look at one of them and he makes his statement. He says, which which group? There's like a war going on, and there's got the rebels and the and I think like the people or something government, I forget exactly the specifics. And he said, Who's gonna win this war? They said, the rebels are, because they're doing it and they're not getting paid. And the point was is that they had something bigger than money as their motivator. It was purpose. And when you constantly give people purpose, it's a bigger motivator than I think pecuniary, you know, rewards and and even financial rewards. Which is why you see so many people that'll work and have a side hustle. Work and have another business. Work and do this because this gives them purpose, even if this gives them, you know, compensation.

Dr. Leah OH 12:01

Yeah, exactly. And I think too that I love that you showcase, thinking of purpose, the different ways that people serve and give and show up because they think I think some people get stuck thinking there's only one way to do it or there's one right way to do it. And then that is like, nope, we it takes all of us.

Breaking Destructive Organizational Patterns

Bishop Kevin Foreman 12:21

Yes, it does. And I think too understanding that, showing everybody that their contribution is important, uh, whether they may think see it or not, I think it's so essential to building anything of success and anything great, because at the end of the day, that really is just a much more efficacious motivator to get people to move than just money. And let's prove it. You know, Thieves, you can make someone an offer and offer them more money than they've ever made, and they'll still be on the fence power because they'll say, well, but there's the the work is not purposeful to me. It doesn't, it's not doing more than just giving me a check. So money alone is a poor motivator.

Dr. Leah OH 13:00

Exactly. And so let's talk about breaking generational curses now. And something I love that you've written about. From my perspective and my work, I see organizational curses, right? These toxic, this is, you know, we've always done it this way, kind of scripts that keep organizations and teams stuck. So I'm wondering how can a leader use communication to kind of get rid of that old stagnant company narrative or a personal narrative and replace it with a new story that people really believe in. They want to be a part of.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 13:32

So good. You know, let's define a curse. So I think it's difficult to mind a thing if you don't first define the thing. Define the thing. And so a curse, uh I would generically say a lot of people hear that and think, well, you know, witches and ghosts and goblins and demons and things like that. Curse is just a dysfunctional, destructive pattern of behavior, right? Uh that ends in failure. And so, you know, you can even leak look at Greek mythology where uh it talked about uh Sissippus, how he would roll the boulder up the hill and it would go back down, roll up and we're going down. That's a curse. Like you were doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. It's a curse that in the in the curse of insanities. I think organizationally, there are things that uh we consistently do, and individually things that we consistently do that aren't producing results. And then we have to ask ourselves the question why do we do it? And often it's because one, it's institutional. We've always done it this way. Well, nobody ever stopped to say, let's do it different, let's view it different. And the truth is most people don't. There's a million ways to simplify things and to make things better and more efficient. Most times no one ever asks the question. Number two, I'm not only institutional, number two, a lot of it is in our individual makeup, how we were formed as individuals, how we are as individuals. So no, the joke is I came out of my mom's room with a Bible and a briefcase. So I had this spiritual side, I have this business side, and that's I've always been that way. So I never saw those two things as conflicting. I saw them as converging.

Speaker 3 15:04

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 15:05

And so for me, I can bring the two together. So I can talk faith and finances. And a lot of people say, oh, no, you can put those together. No, to me, no, put those two things going together. And so that's that's individual. And I think the third, some of that is unintentional. Some of it is we're just doing things because we were in survival mode or we were just trying to figure out the easiest way. That thing became something that became part of the program. It became something that's how we normally do it. And it hasn't worked. It doesn't work because it's not producing the highest and best results that it could. And that book, Sins of the Fathers that I wrote, talks about that. Because the opening story is actually about my stepfather. He had never met his natural father, or his, you know, his biological father's natural father, but yet he became exactly like him. And womanizer, an abuser. Uh, lots of things you see in a man and an individual that'll just say these are not great qualities. And the book talks about how things are passed down and around. And I think it's it's such a powerful thing because when people step back and begin to look at it on the individual level, you can see it play out in your family, you can see it play out on your business. Wherever you look, there you are. So a lot of times we look in different things and say, well, this is that, this is that. Wherever you look, you are, you've impacted how that thing has been shaped.

Dr. Leah OH 16:23

Yeah, exactly. And I think that goes back to your point of showing up as your whole self and all of these iterations and helps you to see things much more clearly rather than I'm in my work lane or my congregation or whatever that is instead of shipping. Exactly. Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 16:38

Exactly. And it it makes it, you know, just to add on to that, tack onto it makes it so that life is actually lived and enjoyed. So then you build a life you don't need a quote vacation from. Not that you don't have vacation and recreation, but I think most people need an escape from their real lives because they've built a life that they can't actually maintain. And I don't just mean from a financial standpoint, they can't maintain constantly, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, versus do all of these things, and I do all of these things well. Not perfect, but well.

Dr. Leah OH 17:12

Yep, exactly. Yeah, and to the point I tell my kids, I'm like, perfect doesn't exist. Perfect is a myth. It is a unicorn. Like we're not gonna, we're not gonna try and chase that. Right. So I like that. Do these things well. Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 17:25

Yeah. I yeah, not perfect, and not without error. And not, you know, yeah, not without messing up and making a mistake. I think the one of the most beautiful things about life, life, is being able to make mistakes and say this is recoverable. Nothing, there's there's very few things that we cannot recover from. And I I'd even submit there's nothing that we can't recover from. And most people live there, especially leaders, especially leaders who have achieved success. Sometimes they struggle with getting new success because their previous successes become a prison for them.

Dr. Leah OH 17:53

Exactly.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 17:54

It becomes a challenge.

Dr. Leah OH 17:56

Well, yeah, yeah. So let's switch gears a little bit and think about the ROI of wellness. And you pioneered hashtag fit harvest after losing 95 pounds. Congratulations. That's not a small feat.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 18:10

No.

Dr. Leah OH 18:10

And you're yeah, you're connecting your physical health to spiritual and leadership health. And I really love that because a lot of folks, I think we've been taught to keep some of these things private, right? It doesn't belong at work or in these conversations outside of close friends or family. But you've made it a you know a public leadership value. So I'm wondering, Bishop, in your experience, how does your leader's physical and mental health or discipline communicate a message that words alone won't to their team?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 18:42

More is caught than taught. More is caught than taught. People, they just look at even social media, for example. People are scrolling, most people aren't reading your captions. So people go through all this work to get these long captions. Most people aren't reading your captions. They'll see what's on the screen, and you've got a few seconds to get to grab them. More is caught than taught. And I think that principle, it translates into every other sphere of life. So I had, you know, I had always been, you know, like built like a middle linebacker, I call it. So I always built a linebacker. I carried it well. And I remember one year going to dip my annual physical, and my doctor's sister said, Bishop, um, if you continue this path, you are one click away from, you know, being pre-diabetic. And I said, You gotta be joking. So, you know, I tried everything. Slim slow, slim fast, all the protein you want, no protein, eat all the carbs you want, drink this bottle of juice, and in 48 hours, you know, come a taboo life. I mean, get that bold exercise, Billy Black's. I tried it all. And I said, this is not working. We were on a 21-day, what's called Daniel Fast, so basically fruits and vegetables. At the end of that, I literally prayed. I said, God, you gotta give me a strategy. I think sometimes in our lives, our lives are anomalies in so many ways and supernatural in so many ways. And sometimes we try to revert to regular and revert to natural. And so if my life had never really followed a natural course or statistical course, then why in the world would I be trying everything else? I literally prayed for a strategy, got a strategy, and it worked. And I lost the first 75 pounds in three months. I didn't even realize I was losing them because we were being super casual that year, suiting jeans and stuff. And um, and I found out the day that we had to go speak in the mountains at a leadership event and I need to wear a suit. So I go to put my suit pants on, suit coat on. The suit coat's hanging off of me. The suit pants won't even stay up. Like, how do you I'm basically sagging suit pants, right? Yeah. And so I so I look over to my assistant at the time and I said, Well, suit is this? I said, Y'all pack me the wrong suit. I said, sir, we are seeing you this is your suit. I said, Tell me, look at this. I said, Yeah, like look at it.

Speaker 3 20:45

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 20:45

So we go, I we are on the way back down the table. And I said, give me a scale. I say, something's going on. And I don't know. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm like, what's going on?

Speaker 3 20:54

And I get on the scale and I said, Yeah, what is this?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 20:57

I just give you, but no. Then I lost another 20 pounds. Now the total weight loss is probably about 120, 125 pounds.

Dr. Leah OH 21:03

Wow.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 21:04

And now I've got the fitness in the gym and all of that, and all of that later. But it really, what really began to encourage me in such an amazing way. I was doing it for my own health. But when I began to see other people tell the sh their stories, they said, I I I I've lost 100 pounds. I've lost 130 pounds, I've lost this, I've lost that. Some people did it very natural the way I did it. Some people said they went and got a surgery, some people did whatever it was. But to me, the key was I began to watch people take their health into their own hands.

Speaker 3 21:33

Yes.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 21:34

And people across America and around the world would send their before and after photos. Um, then hear my story and say, you know, I changed my whole life. Pastors, leaders, executives would say, This is me, and because of you, I'm doing this. I never pre most interesting to this day, I've never preached a message on it. I've never given a lesson on it, other than a masterclass about how I began to do it. People just watched, and then watching, was there Inspiration. So I think as a leader, to answer your question, people are always catching more than you're teaching.

Dr. Leah OH 22:06

Yes. Yeah. I love that. I wrote that down. More is caught than taught. Yes. Right. So powerful.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 22:12

Yeah.

Dr. Leah OH 22:13

So thinking about again the work that you do with finances. So in making money moves, you address financial order. On the show, we talk a lot about organizational headaches. And few things can cause more headaches than financial anxiety. And so I'm wondering, Mishap, from your perspective and your expertise, you know, how can leaders better communicate about value and financial health, both for the company and for employees, in a way that empowers people rather than triggering fear?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 22:43

Yes, such a good point. You know, I wrote that first book, uh, Making Money Moves. Already getting you a financial. I wrote that book after having built a very six. So by the time I was 21, I built the largest black-owned mortgage company. And then that entire industry collapsed over the weekend. Like it literally, the entire industry collapsed. I mean, I was on Friday doing amazing as an associate pastor at the time, uh, in ministry simultaneously. And then on Monday, I was like, everything is on fire. Everything is on fire for everybody. Like it wasn't just us.

Dr. Leah OH 23:15

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 23:16

So in that, I remember saying, okay, how am I going to get through this? And so I began to just pay attention to the lessons that I learned. I wrote that first book, Denver. We were in Denver. We had a blizzard. And uh I wrote that book in three days because we couldn't go anywhere. So it was big time to write the book. So I just got there and sat at my kitchen table and wrote that book.

Speaker 3 23:34

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 23:35

And so, in that, a couple of the principles in the book with how we approach money and our relationship with money. One, seeing it as a resource, not a source. Because for many people, the anxiety is that they see money. This is my source. And this is this is what's providing versus a resource. And so when you see it as a resource, you're always able to replenish it, always able to recreate it. Because often sources can't be, can't be. And so I think that's the first thing. So that's got to be an empowerment organizationally and individually. These are our resources. So the goal is to not just be profitable for the sake of profitability. When we're profitable, now we can make sure that our employees are taken care of. Now we can make sure our facilities are well maintained. Now we can make sure we're reaching more people. The money has to have a bigger motivator than just we want to be a profitable company. We want to hit these numbers for the quarter. We want to do that. Okay, there you want them to help you hit your numbers. Well, they're trying to worry about their own numbers that they're trying to hit.

Dr. Leah OH 24:36

Exactly. Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 24:37

And so it's got to have something greater. Number two that I would say, organizationally and individually, is taking the time to teach. I began to, when I learned the principles and walked the principles out, I began to make sure that everyone connected to me, that these are principles that they knew and they could live out. Yeah. Because it's very difficult, again, for people to coalesce around a mission and they're concerned about their own personal things. They're concerned about how you know how they're going to do what they need to do. And so to me, it became important. Let's make sure the people around me are financially empowered. Same thing with health, or empowered with health. If I get them new, for example, I remember one year I started doing chiropractic. I never had an accident or anything like that that it happened, but I started doing chiropractic work. And they gave me this printout that showed me that depending on your vertebra, that you can have obstructions that can have all these different issues in your body. And so it just was something that piqued my interest. So I literally brought the chiropractor into one of my staff meetings and said, now, all of what you taught me, teach everybody in here what you said, and then I want them to all get these tests so that they can see. Because sometimes there's a misalignment that's having global effects in your body. And you think it's this, you think it's that, you think it's this, you're taking this pill for it, this pill for it, not knocking any of that. But sometimes it's just because something's out of alignment. I use that to say from a financial standpoint, if you help people get into financial alignment, it takes the anxiety off of them, which means they are generally able to perform better because they're not stressed out about money.

Dr. Leah OH 26:09

Exactly. I love that. I love that idea about alignment and that connection with the chiropractor. And you're right, like it might not be these huge things, or you know, I I had a a close family friend who's like, I need to get a new hip, but it was actually they just needed to be aligned. Aligned. Walking, yeah, in a way that was hurting. Slam dunks.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 26:28

You just dad and slam dunk that would yes. That's it.

Dr. Leah OH 26:32

Exactly. So let's think about, and this is something I love this question when I was preparing and in this, you know, a little bit of time we've spent together, your approachability is just off the charts. You're so warm and welcoming and engaging, and I can see why you're known as the people's bishop. So I'm wondering, you know, for our other titled leaders out there, sometimes, especially, you know, the higher you go in the leadership ranks, the further you can be from your frontline staff.

Speaker 3 26:59

Sure.

Dr. Leah OH 27:00

So if you are someone who feels like you've kind of lost touch with your people, what are some practical communication touch points or suggestions you have so they can show that they're really there for their people that they lead?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 27:14

Oh my goodness, I love that. You know, and you just said it. This is me all the time. Going back to where we started the conversation. So if you were to see me at a restaurant, if you were to see me out jogging at the gym, this is me all the time. People always come up to me, they'll have one of my videos or something, and they'll turn their phone and they'll say, This is you, and you know, they'll they'll point to it and whatever that's like. It's me. I will stop what I'm doing. I will engage with people, I will have a conversation with people, I will pray with people, I will give people point people in the right direction. I am notorious for calling one of my team members on the spot and saying, This is you know, so-and-so. Okay, go ahead. So hey, talking. Okay, get them what they need, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, because at the end of the day, to me, why have a platform if you're not gonna connect with people? That being said, I think one of the simplest ways to connect with people is to just show some level of interest in them as an individual. Most people are never heard and never seen in ways that make any difference. And so they're just another number, they're just another this, they're just another that, they're just another this. And so what ends up happening is that they just don't feel engaged. They just don't feel connected. And I can't tell you the number of times I've just remembered something simple. And I'm I'm a visual person. So names, I gotta be honest, not the best with names.

Speaker 3 28:31

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 28:31

But I'm visual, so I can remember your face. I can remember your hair, I can remember how you had your hair. And so I said just this past Sunday, I said to someone who came in, I said, have we talked before? We've met before. She says, I've I've talked to you several times. Ms. said, Well, you changed your hair then, because I remember your hair. She says, I did. She said, I just changed it yesterday. And so she this big smile comes on her face because she was seen. She was remembered. Someone in a seat of authority or power remembered who she was and asked her about that. And so I think for me, again, it's not perfection, but it's about just practical ways that you can engage with people who are on the front line that show them I'm seen, I'm heard, I matter. And it doesn't have to be that deep. It could be as simple as you're walking past their desk and seeing that they've got a dog in the photo. This is, you know, old Dale Carney, the How to Win Friends and Influence. Yep. Seeing that they've got a dog in their photo and saying, you know what, I've got a dog too. Tell me, uh, tell tell me about your pup. Yep. Oh, how did you know I had a dog? You know, that type of thing. And you know, the picture's sitting right there, you know. So it's like it's you. So someone's seeing me, someone's paying attention to me, and that makes all of the difference. And I think making those practical touch points. The other things that I always always used to do too is I would use I would go around and uh I'll use the church for example. And then I've, you know, other businesses that I own too, but I use church for example. I would go around on a Sunday after I've opened up the service and I'd walk the entire campus and I would go and greet everybody that was outside that never got to be in during the music. And so I would go greet the person in the parking lot that's waving, you know, get the park. Yeah. I'd greet them, you good, check on them. I'd go greet security and then make sure security, everybody good up. You know, everybody good, you good. And they tell me one thing that I remember, and that one thing that I remember next time I saw them, I'd say, now, you know, tell me, give me the update on what happened with this. Sir, you remember me? So you've got all these people, and you remember that?

Speaker 3 30:30

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 30:31

Uh when I go on the stage, the singers, I'll give the singers a quick side hug because normally that's all the time. Yeah, and I'll say, How's the situation going with you? Oh, it's good, sir. It's good, it's good. And people feel sick, and you can see it because the smile. Exactly. The instantaneous response is joy. And when a leader can bring people joy, I know it may seem pretty insignificant, but the impact it has, you will get more out of people. Back to the analogy from Godfather. They will lay their lives down, philosophically speaking. They will lay their lives down to accomplish the mission or the vision because they know this person doesn't just want something from me. This person wants something for me. And there's a difference.

The Cost Of Silence At Work

Dr. Leah OH 31:11

Exactly. Oh, yeah. Huge difference, right? All the difference. Yeah. So let's look at the cost of silence. And this is, I love that you will tackle these taboo issues head on. And it's so important because I think silence on one topic grows legs into other topics. And so in many offices, you know, there's this elephant in the room. We all see it, we don't talk about it.

Speaker 3 31:35

Yep.

Dr. Leah OH 31:35

But from your perspective, in your experiences, what are like the tangible communication costs? So maybe it's lost productivity or trust that organizations pay when leaders choose to be polite over honest and engage in raw, important discussion.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 31:52

You know what? The thing you ignore will become the thing you can't ignore. And so there's so many analogies I get used to, but I think the point is made to say this. One of the best things a leader could do is to decide that I'm not gonna let something become something when I could have killed it when it was something. And I said it that way on purpose because many times the thought is, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I learned as a leader, you can't treat everything, but you have to treat the things that you already know have the propensity to become cancers to your organization.

Speaker 3 32:27

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 32:28

So, for example, a gossiper, somebody that's always gossiping. Gotta treat that. Well, you know, people are grown. I don't want to get in people's business, I just want people to work. You're gonna keep doing that, and what's gonna happen that gossip is gonna create a toxic work environment so that your high performers who are probably quiet because high performers aren't necessarily people who want to do a bunch of talking, they just want to get there and get their job done, get their work done. Yeah, you're probably not gonna really engage that, and it's gonna create a toxic environment for them. And so that's something you've got to address. You think versus, you know, address the issues. I think you can still be polite and still at the same time also be very clear about this is our expectation. So the way we do it is we always do what we call values conversations. So everything has to be in alignment with values. So we always use language around, and this is in all of my companies, we, you know, alignment with our values. Our values are thus and so. These actions aren't in alignment with the values. So, one, we make the values the villain, not the individual. I don't like how you said this to Susie. Well, that's individualizing it. Well, that's making it personal. Instead, we make the values the villain, and and again, they're not bad, but the villain in the sense of, you know, we noticed that you were having a conversation that um doesn't really align with our values. In fact, value number five says this and thus and so. Tell me, and then and then here's what you do. If you accuse people, they're always gonna shut down and get defensive. So instead we say, tell us about that. Yeah. Tell me about that. Tell me about what what that is. If someone's underperforming, are you know, uh again, we go back to the values. Our values state thus and so in value number two. Um do you think your performance is is is relevant, you know, is uh reflective of that value? Tell me about it. What you do is when you ask these open-ended questions, people often will check and correct themselves. Not everybody. And those are people we have more chronic issues with. Those are probably people who are not gonna last anyhow. Because they're not self-aware, they're not trying to be self-corrective or to self-improve. So if you don't have those type of people, you'll never work in my environment anyhow, because you know, those types of folks just generally are always gonna have a problem everywhere they go. It's always a supervisor, it's always the manager, it's always the boss, it's always their misunderstood. Yeah. And so after a certain while, you begin to see everybody else is the problem, but too. So maybe you should just go start showing. Exactly. And maybe you should just go start showing. So then that way you don't have any supervisors, you don't have any managers, you have nobody that can that can uh you know keep you bound, keep you bound or what have you. So for me, we always do it that way. And that addresses difficult conversations. Most people, um and from my experience, will self-correct or self-correct, and the ones that don't are people who are not gonna work at it.

Dr. Leah OH 35:06

Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense, right? Because you when you're cultivating this culture, you want people who align with it, like we've said before, and who want to be there. And if not, a lot of times they recognize it's not a great fit for them either, right? Right.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 35:20

Exactly. Exactly. And if you have it that way, yeah, it opens it up so it's not so personal. And it doesn't feel like a personal attack. You're attacking me and you just don't like me and you know, whatever. Yeah. But to me, it's no the values of the values and the values of the values.

Boundaries Built Into Systems

Dr. Leah OH 35:35

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So one thing I was wondering about, you know, you're a pastor to pastor, you coach executives. You've got to carry this invisible load of emotional labor. And I'm wondering with this, you know, how have you found the best way to communicate your boundaries, you know, going about when you need to say no or not right now, while still kind of maintaining your curiosity and all of these pursuits that you're doing so well?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 36:02

Yeah, you know, uh great question. I will not say that I've always done that well. I will say that, but in hindsight, I will say I did it extremely well. And so, well, where's the dichotomy at and how you're having this this bifurcation? Because in the moment, sometimes you don't necessarily think that it's, you know, oh, I really need to do this different, do this, different. But every stage and part of the life cycle of leadership requires a slightly different version of you. And so, you know, I started my first business when I was 12. I got an admission when I was 12 also. So I've had one button since I was an adolescent. I don't I don't know what an off button is. I don't have one of those. Like, you know, I'm like an iPhone. There is no off button. Yeah. You just gotta hold the on button for a long time and then we'll research. So there's no off button. And so that being said, for me, what I had to learn was I have to create systems that become boundaries so that I don't have to constantly be in a position to enforce a boundary. Let me give you an example. If everything is subject to, well, I'm just gonna ask him and see, then it creates a scenario where it looks like this is discretionary. So then if you say yes to this one for that and no to them for that, don't let them find out that that's what you did. Because, you know, and you can say you could tell them all day not to talk. Human beings are done a talk, that's what they do. In fact, telling them not to talk incentivizes it, it makes them want to be talking about exactly. So at the end of the day, I had to say, okay, I got to create boundaries that are built into my systems. I have to create boundaries that again are built into the values so that it doesn't become a discretionary thing, it becomes a butt-value thing, a protocol thing. We created protocols around things that need to be that way. So, for example, when my schedule, my schedule is always very, very full, sunup to sundown, that's the myth that it is. And sometimes people say, Oh, I just need, you know, can I just meet for business? I just need to talk to them. You know, unfortunately, there's no way to do that.

Dr. Leah OH 37:52

Yep.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 37:53

This is the way that you can, you know, address that. Um we'd love to address your issue, love to address your concern. These are the ways to do that. That's it. So if a person sends me a DM later and says, you know, when I was trying to meet with you and your team told me now, I said, oh, I do understand, but you know, you know, I'm I'm they're taking good care of you and what have you.

Speaker 3 38:11

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 38:12

It's the values, it's the protocols. So I call it my VP, my VP protocol. Values, protocols, but those things together, they create boundaries. I used to just work all day.

Dr. Leah OH 38:23

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 38:24

Like sun up to sun down with a lunch.

Dr. Leah OH 38:28

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 38:28

Which is typically a meeting. So that even that was working.

Dr. Leah OH 38:31

Yeah, exactly.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 38:31

You're and so that was fine at a certain stage of my life cycle of leadership. At this stage, it's not fine because there's so many other things that I like to do and enjoy. Like again, physical fitness, being outside, that's something I enjoy. So again, back to the VP protocol is that we created a system where I am absolutely done at a certain time of the day, every single day. That's the end of the discussion. If it didn't happen by that time of the day, it's not happening today. It's gonna happen tomorrow. And that's obviously there's emergencies and things like that. But the last thing I'll say is I stopped making everything an emergency. You know, when you've been an executive since you were a kid, sometimes everything can feel like oh, I gotta do something about this other. What happens again is life cycle of leadership, you recognize that is not that big of a deal. Uh, that is not that urgent. It can wait until tomorrow. It can wait until next week. In fact, it can just maybe wake, period. Maybe we're just gonna put this on one definite suspension, which means I'm never having any intentions on touching it, whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that goes with those life's cycle of leadership because at certain stages, I think it was very important for me to do. And at new stages, it's just not a good thing.

Dr. Leah OH 39:44

Yeah, well, and I love that. And it's so neat that you can see like you've leveled up in these ways and it's become a lot more sophisticated. And I think too, there's so much beauty in being able to look back and say, you know, the measuring stick I used for success at that season is not the one that's gonna be the indicator of success right now.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 40:01

Exactly. And I love like you said it. It was good. Like, for example, let's look at winter. And winter, you know, you know, you you drive different, you dress different, the weapons are different. That season requires a different approach to how you do what you do.

Speaker 3 40:16

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 40:17

You're the same, you different approach. Summertime, you know, I have my sons out, guns out. But summertime, yeah, you know, I'm a very different. Listen, I want to be done at 12 noodles. I want to be outside, I want to be adjoining. It's a different version of me. The same thing is true about leaders. Different seasons, there's a different version of you. You're still you, yeah, but a different version of how you approach what you do, a different version of you.

Dr. Leah OH 40:42

Exactly. And then too, I want to raise up, you know, how you brought in values as kind of the scaffolding for healthy boundaries and for a process. That is that's brilliant.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 40:53

Right, right, absolutely. Yeah. And I think too, putting it as a process, it takes away the pressure that sometimes comes feeling like I have to answer, I have to, you know, I have to answer this and and I have to do this. Somebody sent me an email request for this, somebody wants to do this. Nope, the values and the protocols are there. This is what I live by. Yeah, there's no other there's no other option. There's nothing discretionary about it. And I think as much as a leader can systematize, systems remove stress.

Final Advice For Leaders And Teams

Dr. Leah OH 41:23

Yeah, exactly. All right. So I have two final questions for you.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 41:28

These have been amazing questions. You're amazing at this. Thank you.

Dr. Leah OH 41:31

This is the way I end all episodes of the communicative leader. And these two questions, they go hand in hand. So the first part is, you know, if you have a communication or leadership, like a tip, a challenge, or an advice for our titled leaders, our managers, directors, CEOs. And then the second part is, you know, what is that tip, challenge, or advice for employees across all levels, across all industries?

Bishop Kevin Foreman 41:55

Oh, I love it. Let's start with the employees, all levels, all industries. I think one, recognize that your work is worthwhile. And even if it's not rewarded or seen by your company, managers, et cetera, is you are sowing, you're gonna reap that. You know, some may call it karma. I call it reaping what you sow. It's a scripture principle. And so just because they didn't clap for you over here, doesn't mean they won't clap for you here. You reap what you sow, not necessarily where you sowed it. So my whole life, anyone that, you know, the couple of jobs that I did have, like at 12 and 16, because most of the times I've been in the executive. But any of those jobs, anything that I've ever done for anyone, they will always tell you he does it with excellence. Whether I'm getting big bucks or no bucks, he does it with excellence, because that's just who I am. So I can't half do it. And I think to an employee, when we live in a culture where mediocrity is all almost celebrated, doing the least that you can is almost like, oh, that's good. You have to ask yourself, do I want to reap this? Because what if one day you're one of these title leaders, you're one of these executives, you're one of these people, you got people working for you. Would you want to reap your work ethic and people who work for you? And if that answer is no, I always encourage people, you gotta do different. And I don't just say that sitting in the executive seat, I say that because I've sat in the seat where, you know, I needed to produce for someone else. Two executives, leaders, title leaders, I love how you said that. I say this. Recognize that the greatest contributions that you will make and are not just fiscal or financial, they're in the lives of people that you are shaping them. You are literally giving people silent, sub silent structures for success. Because more is caught than taught. Then watching shows them this is what success looks like, this is what leadership looks like, this is what productivity looks like. And I say to those that are titled leaders to recognize that just that you're a title leader. And as a leader, if you're gonna call the shots, that's what that also means. You take the shots. As a leader, What does that mean? Everybody's watching you, which doesn't mean that you need to be perfect. It just means that when you when you realize you could have done it better, you say, you know what? That was my mistake. That was my error. We could have done that better. You don't have to be perfect. You've already got the position. You've already got the place. Instead, what you have to do is be progressive and productive.

Dr. Leah OH 44:20

So powerful. My goodness, Bishop. I have so many notes. So this has been, yeah, just an absolute delight. And perhaps more importantly, so insightful. And you've left us with so many thoughtful, pragmatic tips. And it's, you know, it's meant so much to me. And I know it'll do the same for our listeners.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 44:39

Thank you so much. But listen, thank you for having me. You've asked amazing questions. Let me just say this to you.

Dr. Leah OH 44:43

Yeah.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 44:43

Because sometimes people see people on camera, on screen doing podcasts. That's so easy. You make it look easy. You're very good at this. And only eternity will be able to tell the lives that you positively impacted because it doesn't show up in the data, it doesn't show up in the comments, it doesn't show up in the likes, it doesn't show up in the shares. I've discovered that more people look the light, more people are paying attention than they actually indicate. And what you're doing is absolutely necessary. It's absolutely needed. So I say to you, keep going.

Dr. Leah OH 45:11

Thank you. That means the world.

Bishop Kevin Foreman 45:13

Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.

Dr. Leah OH 45:15

All right, my friends, that wraps up our conversation today. Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose. I'm looking forward to chatting with you again soon on the Communicative Leader.