The Sugar Daddy Podcast
Ready to normalize talking about money? Then welcome to The Sugar Daddy Podcast. Every episode will get you one step closer to your financial goals. Whether that is learning how to invest, budget, save, retire early or simply make better money choices, Jess & Brandon have got you covered in a way that's easy to understand, and easy to implement. Tune in as they demystify the realm of dollars, so it all makes cents, while giving you a glimpse into their relationship with money and each other.
Brandon is an award winning licensed financial planner, and owner of Oak City Financial, with over a decade of experience and millions of dollars managed for his clients all over the United States.
New episodes published the first three Wednesdays of every month.
The Sugar Daddy Podcast
102: Empowering Women with Money: Bola Sokunbi of Clever Girl Finance
What does true financial freedom look like for women?
Bola Sokunbi, founder of Clever Girl Finance, shares her journey from witnessing women in crisis—arriving at her family’s doorstep with nothing but suitcases, to building one of the largest personal finance platforms for women in the U.S.
Raised in Nigeria, Bola absorbed early money lessons from her parents and watched her mother’s determination change the trajectory of their family. After being dismissed by a financial advisor who questioned her success, she set out to educate herself and ultimately millions of women about money.
In this conversation, Bola opens up about financial independence, cultural pressures, and finding her voice in male-dominated spaces. Her message is clear: financial security isn’t just about money,it’s about options, freedom, and the power to walk away when life demands it.
Ready to create more choices in your own life? Bola shares practical steps to get started today.
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Notes from the show:
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In today's episode we talked to Bola Shukumbi, a certified financial education instructor and the founder of Clever Girl Finance, one of the largest personal finance platforms for women in the US. We talk about her Nigerian upbringing and how that really catapulted her into being the financial educator she is today, with a focus on women in money, If that's of interest we hope you'll stay tuned hey babe, what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1:Today we're talking about one of my favorite topics, which is women and money and how to make more of it, and how to make your money work for you and how to just feel more confident with money. And this is not to exclude the fellas, because we love you too, but we are going to focus on the ladies. Today. We're excited.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you guys should always know that when we have specific topics that are focused on, maybe one demographic doesn't exclude everybody else, and especially for us men. We talk about ourself all the time. We don't need to go into specifics of us.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's just about the ladies, and that is okay. We have a very special guest today, bola from Clever Girl Finance. I've been a longtime follower of the work that she's doing and all of her content, and we're excited to get into the conversation. So, bola, thank you for being with us today. We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yay, well, let's get into the bio so that everybody knows how amazing you are, and then, of course, we'll get into your first money memory. Bola Shukumbi is a certified financial education instructor, finance expert, bestselling author and the founder of Clever Girl Finance, one of the largest personal finance platforms for women in the US. She's the author of Choosing to Prosper, my Wealth Plan Workbook and the Clever Girl Finance book series. Bola was named the 2021 Financial Education Instructor of the Year by the National Council of Financial Educators. She's been featured by major outlets including CNBC, forbes Time, good Morning America, bbc and many more.
Speaker 1:You were just on Good Morning America again, weren't you? Yes, a couple months ago, I think. Okay, I feel like I always see the clips and I'm like yay, bola, I'm always cheering for you. When I see you, I mean that's a big stage. So congratulations. Thank you so much. I do appreciate it. Yes, of course. So, bola, before we get into all the work that you're doing and how Clever Girl Finance came to be and all of your books, I would love to know your first money memory.
Speaker 2:So I have a few, but the one that comes to mind is I remember. I mean, is it a good or bad memory? First of all, it can be.
Speaker 3:It can be either, whatever.
Speaker 2:And and I remember I had saved all this money up and she had this great idea that I should load her this money because she wanted to start a lollipop business or something. And every instinct in me told me that this was a bad idea, because her business plan sucked, her strategy was terrible, but she put so much pressure on me to load her all the savings I had. It was a really small amount, like very small amount, but as a kid it's a big deal and so I gave her this money and then, all of a sudden, I stopped seeing her around the neighborhood, she stopped hanging out, and then she would see me and act like she didn't know me and I was like, wait a minute, did I get scammed? And so that's a memory that I have.
Speaker 1:I bet you read those business contracts even more more with the fine tooth comb. Now right Can look the verbal contract.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine that?
Speaker 1:So don't even do that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't even do the verbal contract. Yet so many lessons to take away. How old were you? I'm probably like seven or eight. I was young, I was little.
Speaker 3:Was she older?
Speaker 2:No, we were the same age.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh Scamming at a young age I know, listen, you can't be putting that kind of karma in the world at seven, oh my goodness. Okay. So what is a good money memory if you had to, because that one's obviously not so positive.
Speaker 3:All right, real quick, I want to speak to the person listening who feels like they can't work with a financial planner yet because they're carrying a lot of debt. First of all, I see you and I need you to know you're not broken, you're not behind, you're just in a tough season. I created something just for you because I've had people reach out who are serious about changing their money story. But the full financial planning package just wasn't the right fit yet. So I built a new service through Oak City Financial that's focused completely on debt reduction no fluff, no shame. You financial that's focused completely on debt reduction no fluff, no shame.
Speaker 3:You'll get a one-time planning session, a personalized payoff strategy, your own financial dashboard and monthly coaching. If you want extra support while you climb out, it's $300 to get started and $100 a month. If you want that ongoing guidance, that's it. This is about helping you get unstuck, not making you feel like you failed. If this sounds like what you've been needing, go ahead and schedule a call with me. The link is in the show notes. Let's take the first step together.
Speaker 2:A good money memory. I guess it's just advice that my dad would give. My dad always had all these little anecdotes about money, so my dad would always say things like uh, never marry a liability. And he would say things like penny wise, pound foolish. So every time he would give us pocket money he would always give you like some money advice Never, never, marry a liability. Penny wise pound, foolish things like that. So I always remember those little quips that he had about money.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I love that. Did he talk to you about money often, or was it just the little anecdotes when he handed you some money?
Speaker 2:He talked about the anecdotes. He talked about, I mean, similar to what a lot of our parents did. He talked about what he couldn't afford, oh yeah, what he wasn't going to be doing. Instead, he talked about what he couldn't afford what he wasn't going to be doing. But my parents didn't necessarily, at a young age, involve us in their inner workings of their finances, so it was more so like them telling us little bits of advice but they didn't say hey, this is what we're going through financially. Where are you from? I'm from Nigeria.
Speaker 1:Okay, did you just say you went to school with somebody named Bola? Who's?
Speaker 3:Nigerian.
Speaker 1:It's not her that would be a crazy coincidence.
Speaker 2:Not me, right? Yeah, so Bola is a unisex name. It's typically a nickname. They usually have a bigger name, so yeah, is it.
Speaker 1:when it's the longer name, is it still unisex, or does it then become gendered?
Speaker 2:It depends on the name, so my name is gendered. Well, I think my name is. I've never. My name is not very common. My name is Mojibola and it's typically female, but Bola can be male or female or anybody can have this name. It's a nickname.
Speaker 1:Okay, what does it mean so?
Speaker 2:the O-L-A means wealth. Oh well, how appropriate. But not wealth in terms of like money, but more so like so. My full name, mojibola, means I was born into wealth or I woke up into wealth. So it's like wealth in terms of like happiness, joy, peace of mind, good health, that type of wealth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the best kind of wealth that there is. Oh, I love that. Okay, we we have a lot to talk about because you've done so much over the years. I would love to start with Clever Girl Finance and the roots and the origins, because I've listened to you on a lot of other podcasts and outlets and I love how you wanted to really empower women with their money and to make it free and accessible. So I'd love to hear the origin story and how you've kind of remained, you know, true to those roots, Cause that's how you you started, and correct me if I got any of that wrong.
Speaker 2:So the I mean the origin story for Clever Girl Finance. I didn't know what I didn't know I was. I was going to build a Clever Girl Finance, if I'd be really honest. So, like when people asked about the origin story, I didn't have this. It wasn't something I knew I was going to do. I never thought I would ever be in personal finance or anything education related or anything women focused. No, I didn't have this grand plan or this grand vision. It was more so personal interest. I was interested in personal finances. I come from a background where I'm trying to think of how best to not make this a long, long winded story grew up watching.
Speaker 2:I learned from observation of both of my parents. Right, my mom got married very young she was 19 years old. Well, given the time, it wasn't young.
Speaker 2:A lot of people were getting married in their late teens, early twenties. She got married to my dad, who was much older at the time he was in his thirties and my mom only had her high school diploma and she got married. She had four kids, including myself, and as she got older into her 30s, she started to see things with her friends that she didn't really like. So, as a little girl, when my mom was in her mid 30s, she had me in her 30s or mid to late 30s when I probably would start to remember things like this over, and they would have suitcases and they'd have all their kids and they'll be there to spend the night because they couldn't go home. They didn't want to go home, and I realized that some of them are experiencing situations of domestic violence or domestic abuse and they were trying to find a way out and my mom was like a safe space for them to come to while they figured out their next move. Or it would be situations where the spouse died and the family came and took everything and pushed the woman out with her kids and they had nowhere to go. So again, they would be in our house with suitcases and they'll be there for a short period of time until they could find their footing and move on to rebuilding their lives or starting over. And I remember as a little girl sitting in the living room just listening into these conversations of what they could do and you know how they were going to get by and you know my mom encouraging and supporting them and my mom getting to this space where she didn't ever want to be like in that situation, because these were women who were her friends, the same age as her. A lot of them had not gone to college, a lot of them were stay at home moms Rais. Lot of them were stay-at-home moms Raising kids didn't really have anything to do with the household finances. They got monthly allowances to take care of the kids, to buy food, and that was it. And so she decided that she was going to go and get her college degree in her mid-30s.
Speaker 2:And that was a challenge for my dad, cause my dad is of a culture and upbringing and an era where it's your responsibility to take care of your family and your wife and your children. And you know it was like do you not have enough? Why are you unhappy? You know what are your friends telling you? So there was a bit of conflict in our household around that time, because my mom was adamant that she needed to go back to school, and so I watched her go back to school. I went to her college classes with her.
Speaker 2:My mom eventually went to school, she got her undergrad, she got her MBA, she started working investment banking and then she started getting herself involved in all kinds of different side hustles just to bring in money. And my mom became this hustle queen making all this money. And then fast forward several years, my dad has to retire early for health reasons. My mom becomes the breadwinner of the family. So for me, watching that, I realized that, you know, I also never wanted to be in a situation that I saw my mom's friends in and I realized that the one way I could empower myself was learning how to make my own money. And of course, it was my dad telling me don't ever marry a liability Penny. Why am I so foolish? And then, on the flip side of that, when I also think about, just like you know, the women in my family, you know my mom comes from a background where it was her older brother who pushed her to go to school, to grade school. He supported her to go to grade school and high school because her parents were just like I guess. They were poor and at the time, you know, education wasn't the priority, like if the child could go to the farm and make money. That's what the child would do.
Speaker 2:On my paternal side, my paternal grandfather wasn't big on. He didn't really trust the colonial masters at the time, which were the British, and so when they came with their formal education, he said, well, if I was going to send anybody there, I will send the child that I think is going to grasp it the most and that would be the male child, right? So he sent my dad. Well, my dad went, his mother sent him. My dad has an identical twin sister who did not get formal education because my grandfather did not see the value in educating the female child.
Speaker 2:And so my dad has his. He started the first grade at age 13 because of finances, logistics, hesitancy with this new British formal education and, just to give you context, my dad is about 89 years old now. So this is like whole era of life you know in the past. And so my dad has his undergrad, his master's, he has two PhDs, but my aunt doesn't read or write because she was not formally educated and so, seeing that and seeing that as a woman in my family and she's very smart, she runs her own businesses. She's just not formally educated but she's a smart woman I realized that in this world, you know, we still. You know, back then they live, very much lived in a man's world. But we still live in that world because when I started my own journey of getting a job, saving money, going to a financial planner's office, his biggest concern as a white male was well, where did you get this money?
Speaker 2:Who gave it to you? Are you married? Do you have a boyfriend? Ha ha ha. And he was making jokes that to me were not funny, especially given my background. Why do you assume all these things about me? And so, to cut a long story short, for me, starting Claro Finance was more about personal interest. I wanted to learn about money. I didn't know what I didn't know. I'm a first generation immigrant here. I didn't know about 401k, about credit, about a lot of stuff. But I wanted to do well, I wanted to make my parents proud. My parents made a lot of sacrifices for me and my siblings to be able to be here, to be able to go to college, and so my priority was to number one, not be a liability.
Speaker 1:There is that theme again.
Speaker 2:And just you know the impression I got from my mom and her friends be able to stand on my own two feet and not be dependent on anybody for anything, and so that's really where the idea from Clevero Finance was born, even though it took me several years graduating from college and figuring out my own finances before I actually got to the idea. But that's kind of like the origin story of why the business even exists and why it focuses on women.
Speaker 1:That is so powerful. Thank you for walking us through that. I think that context, not only the differences and obviously generation from your parents, but culturally I think you breaking out of that and your mom doing that. And then what you touched on I'm glad you mentioned it because my first thought went to well, how did your dad feel about your mom wanting to go to school and get educated and then eventually earn her own money? Because culturally that seems like a very big shift. So and thank goodness she did with you know his his upcoming health problems that she was able to step in. So thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know there's so much to like process. I love it.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask do you, do you see any type of cultural shift for, say, first generation immigrants from Nigeria now switching to the idea of being more open, to women being educated?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, that was a whole generation ago, right, education is the norm, it is a given. I mean, and it's kind of similar here, where there is, for women in general, there's this big I guess, when you think about education versus getting married once you get your college degree, okay, where's your husband? There's still that mindset, that, that expectation that exists for women. Uh, you know, in my culture it is a big expectation. Okay, so, where's your husband? Okay, we get, we get that you want to start your business, we get that you want to, um, get a master's degree, we get that you want to do all these things, but okay, where's your husband?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. So there's that pressure, and it may not come from aunties or mothers, it may come from your peers, it may come from social media, but that expectation still exists. But education is is expected. You're expected to go to school and to do well and to succeed. But there's always like a point Okay, you now have the education, you have the college degree.
Speaker 1:Now, where's your man, where is the husband?
Speaker 3:Because I was telling Jess that, like you know, when I was going to school, in high school and stuff like that I had a few friends that were first generation Nigerian and it was a huge focus on.
Speaker 2:Like you are going to get straight A's and that is the only option you have available to you like education was huge yes, because what they, what the realization was, um for them was that when our colonialists came, because of the power that they had over the continent or the part of the continent, the one way that people realized that they could get ahead?
Speaker 2:Because they couldn't fight back. They physically were not powerful enough, resources were not powerful enough. The one way they could fight back was with education, was by using their minds. And so education took this huge shift where we're going to take everything that they want to teach us and we're going to do exceptionally well and we're going to fit ourself into these spaces and fill up these spaces and succeed, because when you have education, it comes with money, and when you have money, it comes with options. And so there was this huge shift from distrust of what they were bringing to oh, you know how can we leverage this? Because this is the one thing that we know we can do really well, given that we don't have the money, we don't have the resources you know that they have what else can we do? We can get educated. So education is huge, especially in West African culture. There's a saying or a joke that Nigerians have you're either a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer or a disgrace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very limited options there I feel like that and Indian families right. It's very similar.
Speaker 2:I remember coming home with report cards and there will be like b's and my mother would be like so the person who got the a's did they have like two brains? It was never congratulations on your a, it was like so who else got an, a right? Why was your a not a plus? I'm like mom there's no A+ the pressure, the immense pressure, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:I always joke with Jess. High school that I went to was majority white. The AP courses I took there was very select minorities, very specific less black people in those classes. I would say two-thirds of the black people in those classes were first-generation Nigerian.
Speaker 1:There you go. Where did you grow up?
Speaker 3:I grew up in North Carolina.
Speaker 1:Okay, bola, let's go back to that interaction that you had with the white male financial advisor, and he's like asking you where you got your money from and did you end up? Did you end up working with him or what? Of course not. Okay, I didn't want to make any assumptions. No, I was like the hell with this guy?
Speaker 2:No, I did not. In fact, I left there so upset I was like I don't even want to work with any financial advisor Nothing against financial advisors but he just gave his entire industry a bad rep to a young 20-something girl at the time and I was like I'm going to go figure this out by myself. I'm going to go learn how to invest. I'm going to go learn about my 401k. I'm going to go learn about all these things on my own. I don't need this man to judge me and assume um, make assumptions about me. And it was a good thing I did that because you know that was the beginning of me realizing that there are so many assumptions made about women, especially women of color. Especially when you get to a certain point in your career with your finances, and if you don't have a good support system, that can be very deterring to your ambition and to your confidence and to what you think you can achieve, because people tend to want to put you in your place or a place that they assume that you belong in.
Speaker 3:I also think people try to place their own limitations on other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they try to do that. And so for me, um, I was just, I was like I'm not going to tolerate this from this, for I don't even know who you are. First of all, I don't know Good for you. So no.
Speaker 2:I did not invest with him Um and I went and I figured out on my own what was that. I started blogging. I started a personal blog where I would just talk about saving and investing and what I was spending my money on, and that had like a little bit of a readership with my friends. I also had friends at the time who would blog and then I discovered finance blogs. This was very early on and then I discovered, um, I was like I very early on and then I discovered, um, I was like I'm going to figure this out on my own. I went to the bookstore and there was not a lot of resources. There was. I remember I was looking for a finance book for women. I couldn't find anything. I found a Susie Orman book.
Speaker 1:I was going to say Susie had to be there.
Speaker 2:Her book was not. She hadn't even released her women and money book at the time. She had a book on wills and trusts and the finance book for women at the time was david back and I remember picking up the book and I'm like this is so weird that a white man wrote a book for women on money. I was like you know, but I'll buy it anyway. Cast his book was a book for it was smart women finish rich and it was based on his grandmother's story and I was was like you know what Like a woman should be writing this book.
Speaker 3:Crazy concept Right.
Speaker 2:A book for women, by women. I will read this book anyway. I bought that book. I read it to shreds. I bought a new copy Because the woman did eventually come out with or I did eventually find her Women and Money book. But there was just. Those are the two.
Speaker 1:Yeah Slim pickings.
Speaker 2:There was not, there was, there was not, and even just personal finance books in general. The biggest series at the time, I think, was the Four Dummies. There was not a lot, there was not, there was not a lot going on.
Speaker 3:I think people nowadays forget that. You know, go back 10, 15 years and there was a void. You had maybe two or three voices in the industry, all white you know, and that was it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mostly male. There was not much and a lot of the topics were complex and even now there still is a void in the market. I remember I wrote my book on investing. It came out in 2019. And my publisher said well, typically when you, when you're, you, have a book, they want to know what other books like this in terms of marketing, what other books like this exists. Where would you say your book fits in? And I went to look for investing, foundational investing books. There are not that many Foundational investing books written by women. There was like two. One of them was from 10 years before I wrote mine. There still is a bit like foundational investing books written by women. They're very few and very far between. There is still a void. I think because you are in the personal finance space. I'm in the personal finance space. We think that there's a lot of voices out there, but if you go on Amazon right now and you were to do books on budgeting, maybe you'll get 10, 15.
Speaker 2:But, if you do books on I don't know business, you'll get 700.
Speaker 3:There's not enough and, as you said when, you, you know, even break it down even further into women, like, I think, a few of the books that I've read, that they maybe had chapters on women and women investing or women investors, but not an entire book dedicated to it, cause I can't remember the name of the book at this moment. But they did have a chapter dedicated to historical like women investors that were extremely good and basically the synopsis was that women are actually better investors than men because they don't overestimate their ability. You know, if they do well in the market, they don't think it's solely because of their. They have some innate ability to read the market like unlike anybody else.
Speaker 3:You guys men overestimate their abilities, while women actually just follow the basics.
Speaker 2:It's the same with statistics around when men apply to jobs. I have a friend who works in HR and she does interviews and she's like she'll have a resume in front of her and she's like a guy's resume and a girl's resume, a lady's resume. The lady will be overqualified for the position and she'll interview and she'll downplay her accomplishments. The guy will be underqualified and he'll come in there and talk like he is the CEO of the company and he'll over-promise.
Speaker 1:And then under-deliver and she'll have to pick up the pieces after the team meeting.
Speaker 3:And the thing is that actually starts. That actually starts really young. So my mom is a retired college professor and I remember having conversations with her about it where even in grade school little girls will only raise their hand to answer a question If they are a hundred percent certain they know the answer.
Speaker 2:As compared to a boy will do 40 or 50% Well, you know it is because it's it's a it's, it's very much a cultural thing and you know that needs to shift. It's shifting a little bit, but if you think about it right, as women we are, think about your mother and your grandmother's generation. It's all about being demure, being mindful. We all have a good recipe from our grandmother to bake something or to cook something. We know how to be prim and proper and keep the house nice and that's like the like the package. And then the young boys are taught about sports and like business and like cars and, like you know, being vocal about stuff and like the chase I like how your voice changed on that and it's like two different worlds, right?
Speaker 2:and so we're raised like this and, consciously or subconsciously, we're mothers and, you know, fathers are passing down these lessons to their, their children, and even if they're not passing it down, we're observing in the house. So this is mother's place, this is father's place, this is what girls can, this is what boys can do, this is what nobody can do or can do. And then it's like we get older and we think about okay, well, I should only raise my hand if I know the answer. I should. You know, like it's. It's very much impressed upon us, but the world is changing, right?
Speaker 2:Women are in these spaces where, yes, the gender wage gap exists, but we're earning more money than our mothers and our grandmothers.
Speaker 2:Women are choosing not to get married, women are household, sole household earners, or they're breadwinners, they're single mothers, which means that they are in this position where, whether they're choosing to or not, they have to make those firm decisions about their finances and for their children and for their lives. Uh, you know, and so I find it very interesting, um, when people try to put people try to put women in, like it's and it's it's, it's harder for women because I feel like in the world we live in, there is nothing like a man's place. Men can do whatever they want to do, but there is. There is a woman's place, um, and I feel that pretty much all the time. So I just did an interview for um business insider and I remember we were doing the interview they were like, oh, we want to talk about your husband. I'm like we're not going to talk about my husband, because every time I talk about my husband he gets all the credit for all the work that I me, I have done.
Speaker 3:It also seems like a very weird question to ask you with what your platform is like no offense to your husband, but it's completely
Speaker 2:irrelevant. Well, to give them credit, they weren't trying to say, let's talk about your. They wanted to say it was about finances and like what you have built. So they wanted to know like where we stand financially. But obviously, obviously, some of my assets are tied with my husband. I'm not going to talk about those, let's talk about me. And so that's the context there. And I was like, specifically because if I even bring him into this interview, it's going to become about him, because I've done an interview in the past and this was about me saving $100,000.
Speaker 2:And I did this interview with Money Magazine. At the very end, the interviewer asked me oh, what does your husband do? At the very end, the interviewer asked me oh, what does your husband do? And I said he's a physician. And at the end, one sentence this interview is paragraphs. At the very end it had one sentence and it says Bola lives in New Jersey with her husband, who is a physician, and her children. One sentence and it was how I saved $100,000. And I remember reading comments online. It was oh yeah, it's because her husband's a doctor. She's a trophy wife. If her husband wasn't a doctor, how could she save $100,000? All these women just like to lie, like you don't have men and I'm like what is?
Speaker 1:going on on here that one title diminished all of your work, the article clearly said Bola saved before she got married, before she had kids.
Speaker 2:but people just love to attribute, a lot of times, like you said, impressing their limitations. But a lot of times they like to and it's many times other men who do this oh yeah, attribute, yeah, attribute your success to a man, and so, yeah, I think we've gone off topic from the original question no.
Speaker 1:no, it all works together. It all works together.
Speaker 3:I think it's insecurity from the man's side, because society has also, you know, ingrained in men's mind that it's our role to provide, it's our role and more specifically, to provide financially. And if that role quote, unquote starts to erode, then a lot of men are like who am I Like? What do I bring to the table? Who am I in society? And their own insecurity with that happening leads to them, you know, lashing out against women who are doing well for themselves.
Speaker 2:But do you know how much we could do together? Oh?
Speaker 3:Do you know what we could? Oh and I understand this.
Speaker 2:I very much understand that when I was getting married, my we went to marriage counseling and we're sitting in the with the priest and the priest was like oh so tell me what you imagine your marriage is going to be like. So I'm like, oh, you know, I'm going to work. Sure, we're going to have kids, but I'm going to work my career, work, my career, my career, my career. I tell the priestess whole grand plan and my husband is like, oh well, I just thought that when we got married that you know you would stay home and take care of the kids. I'm like who's kids?
Speaker 1:you're like you're marrying the wrong one, for that I was like do you know where I'm coming from?
Speaker 2:right do you know my story where I'm nobody stay home did?
Speaker 1:Do you know my story when I'm nobody stay home? Did he think you were just going to flip the switch and be a stay at home housemaker?
Speaker 2:So again it's it's, it's the way he's. He's been raised to be a provider, to take care of his family, to deal with it, figure it out, and you know, that's good, that's great. Um, I give him credit for that, because there are some men who just don't want to take care of anybody or anything. That's true too. Yeah, that's true, and that's how he was raised. But I'm coming from a background where I'm sitting in the living room watching my mother's friends, that's like childhood trauma that you're trying to undo for your generation.
Speaker 2:So you, so you're trying to tell me that I'm going to sit here and you're going to give me a monthly allowance?
Speaker 1:No thanks, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And then, when push comes to shove, I'm going to be out of house and home Like this is how my brain starts to like, and so it ended up being and he's my biggest supporter, and you know like it end up having end up being having the conversation about what works for us, right, and for me, it's like I'm always going to work, but, um, I'm always going to earn my own money, I'm always going to have my own money. That's just what it is. This is who I am.
Speaker 3:This is what gives me peace yeah for me, like my mom raised my brother and I, I'm by herself and she was a college professor. So, like the, for me personally, the concept of like not being around, a strong woman who wants to make sure, like, at the end of the day, she could take care of herself, is foreign. Because that's not, I mean. That's the only thing I grew up with.
Speaker 1:So when we got together it was like, yeah, of course I'm going to work. No, I'm going to take maternity leave and then go back to work and I will always make my own money. And if I want to leave you, I will be able to leave you, no questions asked. That was always the bottom line, but I was always very clear about it. Like I am not with you because you provide anything that I can't get by myself.
Speaker 3:And I've also said it's like I don't ever want to be with someone who needs me. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. I think there's a very big difference.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're not a liability, not the liability. Exactly Well, and I think because of that partnership, you know we work so well together. We've started the podcast there's you know, like you said, there's so much that we can do together if we work as a team, and so we figured that out very early. But he knew what. He knew what it was. Just like your husband, he ended up figuring out what it was.
Speaker 2:You're always going to make your own and we are a great team and you know we um support each other. He supports my goals, but it's. But given what I do, you know I also need to let women know that it is possible to succeed and be a good mom and be a good wife and take care of your home, but with support, right. So I've been judged for having a nanny, for having au pairs for da-da-da-da-da-da-da, and I'm like listen, you need a village.
Speaker 2:The saying that it takes a village to raise children is not for the birds, it's real. Okay, and so in order to have all these luxuries, it means I have to make money.
Speaker 3:Because they cost money.
Speaker 2:But making money allows all those options.
Speaker 3:Is your husband Nigerian also?
Speaker 1:Yes, though for a second, because I think, as women, we recognize how difficult it is to raise children, to keep a home, to make the meals, to plan the schedules, to do all the things to volunteer at school. There's just not enough time in the day. But then we want to sit around and criticize when we have made it to a level where we can get support, where we can have a nanny, where we can have a housekeeper or you know whatever that might look like. Why are we now shaming each other for getting the support that let's be honest we're all desperately craving more of, because we need more support?
Speaker 2:It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. I think it's just changing the narrative and again it comes from the idea of being able to do it all but not be, but not, um, being able to do it all without, without giving away your breakdowns. Yeah, like women are, we have this. We're held to this expectation that we are super women and we can't show any, anything but getting a nanny or getting a pair, or having your groceries delivered, or whatever it is that you're doing to get help is not a weakness.
Speaker 1:You know it's like. No, I'm recognizing these are areas where I could use support and hello. If you're using money as a tool, then this is how I get more time in my day. This is how I'm a better parent and I can show up and actually want to spend time with my kids instead of being stressed because the house is a mess and the laundry is not done and I haven't cooked dinner.
Speaker 2:I think, because that's the expectation for women. I know that when it doesn't seem that way, it looks like a weakness and it's just like for me. I have twins and I remember this is a little TMI, Sorry, Brandon.
Speaker 2:But I remember when I had them I was I couldn't breastfeed because it was just too much. One baby would latch, One baby would not latch. I got shamed for that. Oh wow, You're not breastfeeding your babies. It's so important for your babies to be with the mother. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. That was one, and this is someone who I was the one who was dealing with postpartum depression. So you're telling me that I'm not a good mom because I'm not breastfeeding. And then I decided to stop altogether about 16 weeks in, because I was pumping 80 ounces plus a day. You know what 80 ounces is?
Speaker 1:That's a lot.
Speaker 2:I was as skinny as this pen. Oh my gosh, I was so sick.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And haggard and my doctor was like girl, you need to stop this and go buy some formula, because those babies are going to suck you. Have you seen those alien movies where they come and they suck the? Yeah? He was like stop, go and buy similac. Okay, fed is best. And then I got shame for, oh, you're not gonna breastfeed for one year.
Speaker 3:Mother's milk is bad and and I couldn't believe it that's so I think one of the most eye-opening things for me when we had our first child was we went to the breastfeeding class together and, as a guy with no kids at the time, you automatically think that breastfeeding is this easy, natural thing that everybody does, and the class was very eye-opening to the fact that maybe 50% of people are able to breastfeed successfully, easily and all that stuff and it's.
Speaker 3:You know, it's not this easy thing that everyone takes to and I would. I would also add on there as a new dad. I actually think that I benefited from us not breastfeeding our child and I was able to help out with the feedings because I was able to bond more, Cause I think in that scenario where the mom is always breastfeeding, spending a lot more time with the child, it's hard for a new dad to kind of figure out where his role is Because, like you know, paternal instinct is not natural, it's something you kind of got to learn and stuff like that, and I definitely think being able to help out with the feeding early on helped me with that.
Speaker 2:Paternal instinct is not natural either, if I'm being really honest. And for me, I had a baby that wouldn't latch. And secondly, the reason why I stopped breastfeeding was I was like, first of all, there's all these people in the house with me, my mother is here, my father is here, my mother-in-law is here, my husband is here and I am the only person who can feed these two babies, waking up and wake up every hour and a half. I'm like what, what is this Like? Why are these people here If nobody can help me? That's crazy. I'm like no, I'm, I will be the cow to pump all the milk and everybody's going to get on the rotation schedule to feed the grandbabies.
Speaker 2:Everybody wanted yeah, no good for you, it was hard, it was really hard. Um, it was hard, it was, it was, it was hard. And people would come and say, oh, you mean, you're not breastfeeding, and stuff like that. I'm like why? And so I? I always have, um, what is the word empathy for moms, especially as a mom of multiples, for new moms, for moms that are traveling with babies, for, um, I mean, I had friends that didn't understand why I couldn't come hang out when you just had twins.
Speaker 2:Just bring the twins. I'm like how should I bring that? You come to me. If I were to get to my car with two car seats, I have to leave one baby upstairs. Yeah, to put one in the car and leave the one in the car to go back, oh my gosh. In the public parking lot. How should I come out?
Speaker 1:First of all, no, no, that's a hundred percent. People come to you.
Speaker 2:That's crazy Um yeah, women go through a lot and I think that, um, we need to be given more grace and give ourselves more grace and give ourselves more grace, and I have I used to be- really hard on and give ourselves more grace and give ourselves more grace, and I have.
Speaker 2:I used to be really hard on myself because there was, especially culturally. There's all this expectation, right um, about how you should look when you're outside. You have to be put together, you know, your house should be amazingly tidy, your kids should always have their hair done, and all this, you know, and I'm like wait, wait a minute. I have twins, I'm working full time, I have a photography business, I'm running Clever Girl Finance. It's okay for me to look crazy in the grocery store every now and then. Yes, it's okay, it's fine.
Speaker 1:And I think we're shifting now to where people are showing up more authentic, right, like if even if it's like, hey, I'm on a reel and my kitchen's a mess in the background, like that's it's nice to see that not everybody's home is like perfect and pristine at all times. Or hey, I do go out of the house without makeup on, or you know, there's just things like that where it's like you have to show up in the moment and authentic and you're doing so much incredible work for women with money, so I do. I mean, I feel like you know this is all so important to the story. But I would love to go into how Clever Girl Finance came about and how you started teaching. You know you started the blog and kind of detailing what you were doing and then it what happened? Cause now it's huge. I mean you're running a huge empire, bola. Sorry, I sidetracked the whole conversation, that's okay. Cause now it's huge. I mean you're running a huge empire, bola. Sorry.
Speaker 2:I sidetracked the whole conversation.
Speaker 1:That's okay. No, it's all part of the story. No, it's great.
Speaker 2:So, as I said, I came out of college and first generation immigrant I'm. The other thing I wanted to mention was that my mother paid for me to go to college, so my dad had retired at this point, um, and I went to high school in Nigeria. I was born in Austria because my dad was working there, but we had moved back to Nigeria. I was in high school there and at the time the Nigerian government was going through and the school, the college system was going through all these strikes because of economic instability. So, like my cousins were taking like six, seven, eight years to graduate from a four-year program, because every few months kids had to leave school, because professors wouldn't teach and et cetera. So my parents were like how do we avoid this? How do we have I'm the last born have a better college experience than this, right? And so my mom was like well, I went to school at the time that my mom was going to college and I was going to her college classes. We lived in Austria. So my mom was like well, I went to school at the time that my mom was going to college and I was going to her college classes. We lived in Austria. So my mom was like we can send her to the school I went to. I have an aunt and uncle who lived there and she can stay with them and we can try to save on costs there. I couldn't qualify for any student loans because I'm an international student. I wasn't an American citizen at the time. So my mom was like, okay, I'm working and she was migrating to the US at the time, so I'm going to work and you're going to go to school and your job is to get good grades and do well, see what scholarships you can get. So my mom, who was an investment banker with all these side hustles, migrated to the US for the sole purpose of supporting me in Austria while I went to college, because she was changing currencies and my mom came here and she was working as a nanny and I was in Austria at an American university. I couldn't get a visa to come here at the time, which is why I went there to her alma mater and I got partial scholarship. I stayed with my aunt and uncle and I went to school there. So my mom was working as a nanny, paying for my college education at the expense of her retirement, because if she was in Nigeria working she would have been fine. And so, coming out of college, I just really wanted to make my parents proud. I'm like my parents have sacrificed all this for me.
Speaker 2:The assumption was that, oh yeah, bella doesn't have student loans. You know, her parents are rich, they pay for college. I didn't have student loans because I couldn't qualify for them and we could have gotten aunts and uncles to co-sign for my student loans, but they had already co-signed for my brothers and it was too much to ask them again to take on the burden of my debt. So I went to college over five and a half years instead of four years, because that was how the money was going to get me through college. I couldn't do a four-year stint like that. I had to spread it out of money was going to get me through college. I couldn't do a four-year stint like that. I had to spread it out.
Speaker 2:So, coming out of college, like I said, I was saving as much as I could. Before I got my first job, I got a job at CVS. I had already moved here at the time. I had got my green card. I got a job at CVS because I was just so ready to work, so I had my undergrad degree, I was working at CVS for a few months and then I got my main job and I was just saving and investing as much as I could.
Speaker 2:And so, like I said, I was blogging about finances how I spend my money, you know, sharing with my friends and then fast forward several years when I got married, I had my kids and I was experiencing this postpartum depression and I was like I want to do something that matters. I like my job, it's great, but you know, this is like I want to do something that matters. I like my job, it's great. But you know, this is like I'm a number here. If they fire me, what does it mean? What does it matter? I was reflecting on my whole life from the lens of a depressed, exhausted new mom yeah.
Speaker 2:But think about her life at 2 am, the two babies in her lap. So I was like, ok, why don't I do something that I talk about all the time? And I was trying to figure out what that was. Something that interested me and everything that came to me and I talked to my friends about was something I talked about all the time, which was money. So I started a blog called Clever Girl Finance that I came up with one time in the shower and I just started writing about my personal finances and then I would showcase my friends who had invested or saved or done something good with their money. And then I had friends who were either getting married or getting divorced or had a story about finance or had built a business or had done something, and I would share that. And that's really where the business started and I think it took off because it was women like me, who look like me, who could relate to me, who were sharing their stories from an honest lens. And it wasn't always I'm a millionaire, I've invested, I've saved $100,000. It is. I'm paying off $100,000 in debt, I'm getting divorced, I'm starting over, I'm getting married, we're joining our finances. It was honest conversation and so I started the blog.
Speaker 2:Social media, I think was Instagram was the first social media, and then the podcast. And so I started the blog. Social media, I think was Instagram was the first social media, and then the podcast, and it just started to gather an audience that way, just from organic interest of wow, there's women like me, no shame, no judgment. We can laugh about stupid money decisions that I have made and other people have made without feeling shamed or judged or embarrassed. Because there is also, and there still is also, a lot of shame and embarrassment on social media around money, especially when it comes to women. You see it often like you know the stereotypes and they try to turn it into something funny, but sometimes it's not like girl math. I get that sometimes, but when people start to do parodies on girl math and then it makes us look stupid, we're not stupid, we're very smart, right, and so there's things like that that make women not want to be vocal about their finances because they don't want to be judged.
Speaker 2:And so we basically created a Clever Girl Finance, became a safe space where you could just come to an Instagram live or you could come on the website or you could join. I had an. I had an accountability program on Facebook. You come there and just talk about your money mistakes and not feel shamed about it because you did. You made a mistake. Who hasn't made a mistake right? And so that was really the beginnings of Clever Girl Finance and it kind of grew from that organically and then the free aspect of it came from the pandemic. So during the pandemic, clever Girl Finance has been the idea started in 2015.
Speaker 3:And it's 10 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, during the pandemic, basically the world was over. We didn't know what we didn't know.
Speaker 1:It did feel that way.
Speaker 2:We were all locked down at home. We didn't know. We just thought the world was over really and it was ending for many people because lives were being lost. It was awful. You know, my husband is a physician. His boss died the week before my mom eventually became a nurse. My sister-in-law is a nurse. My other sister-in-law is a doctor. Not good, nothing was good. Everything was horrific.
Speaker 2:And I was home with the kids and my husband was at work because that's where he needed to be. And I remember people with the kids and my husband was at work because that's where he needed to be. And I remember people were emailing oh my God, I don't know what to do. I can't buy groceries. I don't know what to do and I was like okay, if the world's going to end up, the best thing I can do is figure out how to at least give certain families money to buy groceries. So I think every week we would give a few families a hundred dollar gift cards to Target and Walmart to buy groceries. So I think every week we would give a few families a hundred dollar gift cards to target and Walmart to buy groceries. And then other people heard about it in our audience. People wanted to donate, so he started giving out gift cards for people to buy groceries was not nearly enough because the audience was pretty big at that time, but we did what we could.
Speaker 2:And then, as people started to realize, okay, the world isn't quite ending, but we have an online life to live, people are like I can't pay my bills, I can't do this, I can't do that. I'm like wait a minute. We have all these courses. If there's anything that we can do for our audience, it is to give them these resources at the time that they need them most. And so I made all the courses on the platform free, I think about a week after we went into official lockdown and that was just one way of giving back. And I'm like you know what Everybody we're all like there's nothing else to do at this point but stay home, watch TV and here are the courses. Nobody's making any money.
Speaker 2:So I did that and from there it just really took off, because we had all the people sign up for the courses and I guess word just spread that, wow, clevero Finance has all these courses for free. If you want to try to get back on your feet this season, figure out how to save, how to invest, do that. And so we went from being a paid course platform to being a free platform and the revenue sort of reinvented itself, because then we had more brands that wanted to work with us and because we create so much content, um, we had other companies that wanted us to create content for them, like ghostwriting or like just content that was forward-facing to them. Um, we had advertising revenue and other things like that. So in way, it was kind of like a silver lining where we gave our audience this but then it made up for itself in so many other ways, and so that's really how the courses became free.
Speaker 2:I was like it doesn't make sense for us to have this paywall at the time that the audience needs us most. And I know many companies did it temporarily, companies did it temporarily, and I was like, well, like, like, if my mission is to support women during challenging times, a pandemic is not the only challenging time a woman faces. And I think back to the situation my mom was in. Women face challenging times when they have kids, when they some women have to stop working to stay home to take care of their kids, because sometimes the numbers don't work out right to go back to work, divorces, leaving marriage, unexpectedly losing a spouse, sending children to college so many reasons in life, all my life, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what I realized with personal finance is that nobody is really paying attention to their personal finances until life happens, because money isn't really a topic that people want to deal with. Like, oh, let's sit down and go over your budget every 10 minutes. Nobody wants to do that. People look at their budget when they need to. I mean, if I'm being realistic, like as finance experts, we're like, oh, budget every month, budget every month. The truth is that most people really are going to look at their budget when they have something coming up, a good thing or a bad thing, or when life throws them something good or something bad.
Speaker 2:There's a situation that causes us to pay attention to our finances. From the vast majority of people, some people are just trying to. You know, some people do it just because, but most people it's a reason, and so I want I want a clever finance to be the platform that's there to support people when they have their reason, and the best way to do that is by making the resource free, because why shouldn't it be free? Right, and we can figure out how to make money through other avenues, especially if, again, like I said, the mission is to support women and help us get to this point where we're living life in our own terms and making smart decisions about our money. We get there with support, and so that's kind of how I figured making Claro Finance a free platform.
Speaker 1:I love that that is. I mean, it's so meaningful in what you just said about all the different seasons of life that women go through where you need support and then also kind of calling out yeah, people don't look at their money until they absolutely have to, whether it's for a good reason or a bad reason. So then you're there whenever that thing comes up, which is so wonderful which is so wonderful, are your?
Speaker 2:Erin Condren? Is that collab out? I know that was a big thing. That club is actually winding up, so it's been out since 2020, about a year and almost over 18 months now.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I remember when I saw that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so exciting, cause I was definitely like I always had a planner. I always wrote things down. Now I'm on the electronic planner side.
Speaker 3:But when I saw that you were doing the, collab.
Speaker 1:I was really excited and obviously you've had great partnerships and collab opportunities. But the work you're doing is so meaningful and it's so great that you found a way to still you know, obviously you also have bills to pay and you have a business to run and you have employees and people need to get paid. So it's wonderful that you were able to support the people the way you intended, with free content, but still make sure that you are getting what you need to run the business and the platform and the courses on the back backend. So there is a way to do that and still kind of stay true to your mission Absolutely, and it was.
Speaker 2:I've always kind of going back to what you said about you know, it's the business still still need to make money, still need to pay. The team and I've always wanted to before the pandemic wanted to be able to do more and try to figure out how do I make, how do I do more? But I'm not a nonprofit. I don't have any government funding, Like you know, like I don't have any grants or anything like that. So how do I do more, how would I be able to do more and make it like more accessible? And when I made the decision for the pen during the pandemic, I had no idea we didn't have another source of income. I just had business savings. I'm like, okay, we'll ride the savings out and then, if that's the end of the business and end of the world, thank you all. That was really the mindset I was because, again, I was also very emotionally overwhelmed. I have a husband who's going into the hospital. I have a mother who is, like my mom's, an infant nurse, like my baby's, my baby. So she's worried about her baby. This is, this is COVID. People are dying everywhere. We know so many people who died. My sister-in-law, like is I was like you know what If? Look, my real life is lifing. This is the least of my problems. It can be free, right, like my real life outside of my business is actually happening here. So that's where I was.
Speaker 2:And so when I, when it became free and I realized, wait a minute, there's a brand partnership over opportunity here. There's this other opportunity here. This is another way we can make income here. I started getting all these other ideas.
Speaker 2:Advertising here right, we didn't use to run ads on the site or on the podcast, but I realized the audience actually doesn't really mind that because they're getting access to the resource and if that replaces you having to pay for a course, then why not? Right, absolutely. And so we found ways to replace that income and it changed the game for us, to be honest, so I'm grateful for that, I guess, for us to be honest, so I'm grateful for that. I guess I don't know if I'd call it an opportunity, because it was a crazy time in the world, but the opportunity to be able to make the courses free. That exposed us to other ways to earn money and also just having savings in the bank, similar to personal finances. I treat my business like that. There always has to be money saved in the event that a pandemic happens, life happens to your business right To weather a storm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bola, what would you say to our audience? What do you want to leave them with today Could be about life, business, motherhood, finances, any big takeaways that you want them to glean from all of this.
Speaker 2:I think, given the current economic climate, I'm getting the same question about finances, like what do I do?
Speaker 2:Do I save, do I sell my investments?
Speaker 2:And the advice I've given everybody, that I've taken myself myself, that I've always given everybody regardless, is that money gives you options and you need to come up with a way, a plan, to create those options for yourself.
Speaker 2:That means looking at your finances and getting a handle on your debts and putting money aside in the bank and determining what number is going to give you peace of mind, because, no matter what is happening in the economy, in the national economy, global economy, in your personal economy, if you can look at your bank account and say, you know what, I can walk away from this relationship, from this job, from this neighborhood, from this city, and you can create that option for yourself, I can give my money to a cause that is meaningful to me, I can help this person, I can support my kids. Once you can create all those options, it's a little less pressure when you're seeing everything happening around you. We can't control right, control the world, we can't predict the future, but that element of having options gives you a level of peace of mind and minimize, minimizes stress. That is so key.
Speaker 2:Priceless, really, yeah, yes, so figure out how to get some money in the bank, and it may be getting uncomfortable. I've done all the jobs. You can do all the jobs for a short period of time. I have worked multiple jobs as a mother of twin babies, starting a business, running a side hustle, going to work full time. You can figure out how to do stuff for a short period of time. Sell stuff in your kitchen, your garage. You have clothes you have not worn, you have like as my kids were going past stages, the crib was on Facebook Marketplace, the stroller was on Facebook Marketplace, the food processor, that stupid breast pump.
Speaker 2:Get it out of here, get money from all those things and put it in the bank to create options, and sometimes it's not comfortable. I don't want to work at cvs with a college degree. My friends are working on wall street making a hundred thousand dollars and they're like well, what are you doing? Oh, I got a job at cvs making five dollars an hour in the photo department. But sometimes you have to do what you need to do because you have a plan. So don't get caught up in what people think about you, forget about social media and just focus on you and what you need to do to create that peace of mind for yourself.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much, Bola, for being with us today. This was such a great conversation. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me, of course.
Speaker 1:Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid, until next time.
Speaker 2:Sugar Daddy Podcast. Yo Learn how to make them pockets grow.
Speaker 1:Financial freedom's where we go Smart investments, money flow. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community. If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom or leave usa voicemail through our Instagram.
Speaker 3:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment, based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise.
