GriefShare with Dr. Jeff Forrey

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob and Jason discuss the aftermath of Easter services, emphasizing the importance of training congregants in spiritual practices. They introduce Dr. Jeff Forrey from Church Initiative, who shares insights on grief, its multifaceted nature, and how pastors can better support grieving individuals. The conversation highlights common misconceptions about grief and the importance of presence in pastoral care. This conversation delves into the complexities of the grieving process, emphasizing the importance of understanding that grief is not a linear journey. The speakers discuss practical ways to support those who are grieving, including being present, offering help with daily tasks, and following up over time. They highlight the need for churches to train their congregations in grief ministry, utilizing resources like Grief Share to foster community support. Additionally, they address the signs that indicate when professional help may be necessary for individuals struggling with prolonged grief. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the vital role pastors play in providing compassionate care and support to those navigating loss.

Connect with Dr. Jeff Forrey at Church Initiative
GriefShare

Chapters

00:00 Post-Easter Reflections and Church Dynamics
04:33 Understanding Grief: A Holistic Approach
21:02 Common Mistakes Pastors Make in Grief Counseling
23:56 Understanding the Grieving Process
30:43 Supporting the Griever: Practical Approaches
36:56 Training the Congregation for Grief Ministry
42:37 Recognizing When Professional Help is Needed
45:50 The Pastor's Role in Grief Support

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so glad that you have taken a few minutes today, whatever this day is for you to listen and to check things out. Rob, I mean, we're a couple of weeks out from Easter now. The sun is starting to shine. The golf clubs are starting to call. How you feeling?

Rob Paterson (00:21)
You know what? I'm, I'm a little bit tired this morning. but in a good way, you know, I mean, there's always when you're a pastor, there's always that, man, it's the week after Easter. put in so much, you know, so many hours, so much physical and emotional time preparing. So, you know, I was, I was sort of tired last week a little bit, you know, just, and so took a little extra space, to recover a little bit.

And then the Sunday after Easter, I decided, you know, I was, I've still been thinking in my mind about that, that thing we talked about with our friend, Derek Sanford in an episode, you know, where he talked about how the church in America is over inspired, but under trained, you know, and we need to really not just say things that inspire our people to spend time with God, but actually show them how train them, how to do that.

Jason Allison (01:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (01:13)
And then the likelihood of them following through is going to be, you know, so much higher. And so one of the things we did is just yesterday at church was, I decided to like actually incorporate a couple of unique elements into the message. And so we did communion, the week after Easter and we did it right in the middle of the message. So we kind of talked about where we'd been in this series, did communion as a way to really mark that. then

the last big idea for us was like life together, you know? So because of all that Jesus has done for us, he wants us to do that with and for other people. And the text was great because you see Jesus doing life with people who know better, people who journey with them well, all of the religious experts and teachers of the law, they should have known better, but again, they didn't and it was terrible. we would...

Jason Allison (02:05)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:06)
we would probably feel betrayed and push

those people away, but there's Jesus interacting, being gracious, choosing relationship, you know? And then, and then family, you know, Jesus in the, in the text in Mark three actually expands it cause his mom and brother show up to say, Hey, like tell Jesus we're here. And then someone comes in and he's like, here are my mother and brothers and sister.

Jason Allison (02:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:27)
the people who do the will and he's referring to, he just called the 12 like these are brand new relationships and he elevates them to the level of or even above his actual family. But then he also cares for the crowds of sick people and needy people who are always flocking to him. And then so we ended that there's a girl 20 probably just turned 28. I think I've known her 14 years since she was in high school and her, her mom has battled cancer for 25 years.

Jason Allison (02:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (02:57)
now about my age, but our age and, and then the daughter was just diagnosed with cancer in the last month or so. and has been in treatments and they've been difficult. She has two beautiful young girls. and so I just asked her last week and said, Hey, can we pray for you next week? We're talking about doing life together and you know, P I know people have been journeying with you and praying for you and stuff, but can we just as a whole church pray for you?

And we did. And it was cool because both gatherings, literally, I would say 90 % of the church at the end poured, you know, to the front and just surrounded her. And it was just such a beautiful picture of God's people, you know, doing life together. ⁓ so great stuff, but you know, I mean, takes time, energy, effort, coordination, preparation. And, and so just, I'm, tired in a, in a very good way today.

Jason Allison (03:25)
Mm.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

good. Well, I'm glad that it's a good way. And it sounds like it was a great. Yeah, just a great gathering. I appreciate that. Well, you know, speaking of life together and doing life together, we have a guest today who is part of an organization called the Church Initiative. And the thing that they're most known for and the thing that I have experienced them or interacted with them in the past is they produce things like grief, share and divorce care.

some of these different curriculums slash support groups slash small group like it could fit into a lot of categories. And I am just excited because we get to talk with one of the senior writers, you know, who produces this and has been, I just know I've seen it impact people for decades. Honestly, it came out in 1994 and I was in ministry. I think you were too, Rob. And so I remember when that came out and the church I was at and we actually implemented

the divorce care and then later the grief share. And so I am so excited that we get to have Dr. Jeff Foray. He is the senior writer and the content developer at Church Initiative in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Jeff assumed this position in 2016, but that's after years of different biblical counseling ministries, teaching actually, biblical counseling in schools.

And so I just I know you've written some articles. You've just done so many things and I'm so excited that you get to be a guest on our pot. Now I'm just kidding. I'm so excited that we get to spend some time with you. So Jeff, thank you for being here. Welcome.

Rob Paterson (05:18)
Ha

Jeff Forrey (05:24)
Well, thank you for having me. This is a great pleasure to be able to speak with you all and to your audience.

Jason Allison (05:31)
Good. Yeah, we're glad. Maybe let's just dive right in because, know, Rob was talking about doing life together, you know, in a church context. And that's really what you guys are all about is helping facilitate that space and giving some direction around it. maybe let's just start with the grief share concept and grieving in general. Like to you, like, as you think about this, what is like normal when it comes to experiencing grief? You know, I've

met with different people who have been caught off guard, even by the intensity of their emotions and even the duration of the grief. So just curious, what's normal if there is such a thing? And how can pastors speak to that?

Jeff Forrey (06:13)
That's a great question. And it's a really important question too, Jason, because grief hits people in different ways. And it can even hit people differently than they've experienced it in the past. So the same person experiencing grief at different points in his or her life can go through very different types of experiences and it's very disorienting.

And it even creates questions in people's minds like, am I going crazy? Because I've never experienced this before. I'm not expecting this. So it is an important question. What is quote unquote normal in grief? Well, I think it's important to understand that grief is a whole person kind of experience. So it's likely to affect you emotionally, physically, intellectually.

socially, spiritually. So it might be helpful to understand that grief is more than sadness. Certainly sadness is a part of that because you've experienced a loss. There's going to be some yearning for the relationship with that person who has died. Most people would expect that, but they might not expect.

some of what grievers call mental fog or brain fog, ⁓ where people suddenly become much more forgetful than they were before. They miss appointments. They lose things. I remember talking with a couple of individuals who, when I talked to them, was sometime after their experience of

Jason Allison (07:29)
Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (07:45)
grief and so they were able to laugh at it. But at the time it was very, very disconcerting. This one woman, she tells the story of going into a grocery store, getting all of her groceries, going back to her car, unloading her groceries and she realizes, I don't have my glasses. Maybe I left them inside the store. So she goes back in the store and she starts looking around for her glasses.

And a clerk comes up to her and says, ma'am, are you looking for something? And she said, yeah, I'm looking for my glasses. And the clerk said, you mean the ones on top of your head? Yeah, she, yeah, there they are. Yeah. And then another individual I talked to, he got ready for work. He went to work and while at work, he looked down at his shoes and he said, now I had two black shoes on.

But they were two different kinds of shoes. Yeah, so yet they can laugh at it after the fact, but when you're experiencing it, it's like, wow, what is going on with me? You know, there are individuals who also struggle with other strong emotions beyond the sadness. Anger, for example, individuals who might be angry with the Lord.

Rob Paterson (08:40)
Hahaha

Jeff Forrey (09:04)
They might be angry at people whom they associate with the death of their loved one. They might even be angry at the loved one. ⁓ And that's all very common. It's also very, very important for that kind of thing to be dealt with because if the anger continues to fester, it develops into bitterness. And then that bitterness...

Jason Allison (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Forrey (09:28)
further complicates trying to deal with the loss. Sometimes grievers also experience physical symptoms, which really catches them off guard because you don't normally think of grief as a physical experience, but it is. It's a type of stress on your body as well as your mind and soul.

Jason Allison (09:36)
Hmm.

Jeff Forrey (09:50)
The stress that it puts on your body can result in a number of different symptoms that, there might be a tightness in a person's chest associated with that, some difficulty breathing. There might be a tightness and pain in the abdomen, muscle aches, headaches especially, neck aches because of the tension that your muscles are under. And that could be very disconcerting. I remember talking with

Jason Allison (10:12)
you

Jeff Forrey (10:17)
One woman who said she was, think, in her 30s or so when her mother died suddenly. And she said, I started experiencing physical symptoms that I never dreamed that I'd have to deal with at this point in my life. Things like hypertension, high blood pressure, and pre-diabetes.

She said these things now had to be addressed by her physician to make sure she didn't go down with further complications because of those conditions. But it was very, very disconcerting for her. She wasn't expecting it at all.

Jason Allison (10:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, the body,

the body really keeps score, right? I mean, the body deal, it keeps score of the stress and the trauma and all of that. So you can't just separate it as though, I'll deal with that on an emotional level and I'm not going to worry about anything. You know, like we are a whole being and a whole creature. so, that's a good, even as pastors, as we're dealing with people who come to us in the process of grieving.

Rob Paterson (11:12)
Ha

Jason Allison (11:21)
being able to really understand that, I think changes the way we approach them, right? You know, that's what I think, but.

Jeff Forrey (11:27)
Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. Because like you said, as whole creatures, body, soul, spirit, however you want to describe that wholeness, the reality is that God designed us to experience life through our bodies. So when you have a very significant stressor like the loss of a loved one,

It definitely is going to have an impact on you that you will experience at all of those levels. Mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, absolutely. And if pastors are going to minister to individuals, they do need to be aware of these possibilities. On the one hand, to help encourage the griever. Like, this is normal.

We want to keep an eye on it because certainly if any one of these sets of symptoms gets worse, it may call for some professional attention. But if the griever has the assurance that this is part of what normally happens in grief, it really goes a long way to alleviate increased tension for them.

Rob Paterson (12:41)
Hmm.

Yeah, that's Jeff. That's so good. So I'm I'm gonna try to make an analogy here that I was thinking about when you talked about, you know, how the how grief can impact people physically, you know, and they can get forgetful and things like that. So my wife and I have two sons, and the oldest is getting ready to turn 20 here. And I still remember my wife is, you know, very organized, very diligent. She she's good at details and execution.

And especially 20 years ago, you know, I relied on her so much in every area of life to, you know, her skills in those areas were so much more developed than my own. and so she was, you know, served me very well. and, and, those things, and I still remember when she was pregnant with our first son and really second one too, like she would forget things, things would fall through the crack. We, know, we kind of started calling it, I think everybody does pregnancy brain, you know, where it's just like, what is happening?

And the first time we had that experience, I actually had this, this fear, like, is, this a permanent condition? Like, is this going to, how long is it? If not, how long is this going to last for? Because I can't manage life if my wife's not my wife anymore, you know? But I think in that same way, you know, when people experience grief symptoms, they can really feel like, or be concerned that this is just their new reality. And these

Whether it's forgetfulness or just like overwhelming sadness or whatever they can be like, this is going to last forever. In fact, I'm dealing with a person right now who's had a couple key relationships literally go away. and, and they just feel like this is going to be their new reality forever and that there's no hope and there's no future. I remember dealing with a family who are my good friends who lost a daughter.

you know, in her early teenage years of a brain aneurysm, nobody knew she had, she was walking the dog and just fell over and that was it. And even now a decade and a half later, I hear them, especially her use language like the day my life ended. And I can't, I mean, I give them endless grace because, you know, I can't even fathom losing a child. But at the same time, you know, as people think about various kinds of loss and grief,

You know, what's normal? What's normal in terms of those kind of initial overwhelming emotions? Like how long do they last? What's normal in terms of if you're putting in the work, you can kind of expect to, you know, get back to some semblance of life.

Jeff Forrey (15:13)
Yeah, the question of timeframe is another challenging one when it comes to grief. On the one hand, we can say with confidence that the vast majority of people who've lost a loved one do eventually develop a new lifestyle with new routines, perhaps new roles and responsibilities, if like a spouse has died. They do develop that new lifestyle.

eventually, it does work itself out for the vast majority of people. So I think that's an important point to keep in mind. But how long does that take? It will vary because grief is affected by a lot of different variables. You know, how the person died, what kind of relationship you had with that

you know, integral that person was to your life. What other kinds of stressors you have to deal with in your life right now. That's also going to affect the way you deal with this particular stressor that of the loss of a loved one. And then how, how able you are to kind of put together the new life that you're now going to have to live without your loved one.

And that's gonna depend on the types of resources you have available. And like I said, other kinds of stressors that might be pulling for your attention and resources at the same time. So those are all variables that can affect how long people grieve. And something else to keep in mind too, is that...

even well after the death of a loved one, there might be times when a person who is dealing with this loss will experience a resurgence of grief that itself can be very surprising and troubling. But those resurgences of grief, we call them grief ambushes because they seem to come out of nowhere, right? But

Jason Allison (17:08)
Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (17:10)
These grief ambushes are typically triggered by events or experiences that remind you of your loved one. It might be a smell of a perfume or cologne. It might be going into a store. I talked to one griever who after the death of his wife, he was remodeling his house and he went to

get a store to look at some lights. It happened to be a store that he and his wife had done a lot of shopping in when they were first establishing their home. So he's in this store, he's looking at all these lighting options and then all of sudden he just starts to cry intensely. And so he said, I had to go find someplace out of the way.

Jason Allison (17:52)
Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (17:58)
where I could just allow myself that time to cry. He was triggered by being in that store that he and his wife had frequented long ago. And so these grief ambushes are another normal part of the grieving experience. And we really shouldn't be embarrassed by them. mean, this is just a reminder of how important that person was, right? And so,

Jason Allison (18:22)
Right.

Jeff Forrey (18:24)
Allowing yourself that opportunity to grieve is actually a way of honoring the significance of that relationship with the person. And so, you we should allow that to happen without really being embarrassed about it. Although, you know, if you may feel more comfortable being by yourself when you have such a reaction, it's still something that you can expect over time, especially in the first year, because you go through

Jason Allison (18:49)
Yeah. Okay.

Jeff Forrey (18:52)
A series of firsts, first anniversary, first birthday without that person, the holidays without that person. Those are especially times when grief ambushes are frequent.

Jason Allison (18:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, what's so I mean, I'm thinking as a pastor, I mean, I can think of some right things to do. But I mean, as you've worked with people over the years, what are some common mistakes that pastors make? Because, you know, we probably don't even know that we're making it because we probably think every pastor I've ever worked with in any way, shape or form has wanted to be helpful, right? They weren't trying to be mean or mean-spirited.

But I've I've seen them in the midst of grief as they're trying to help someone, you know, do different things than later. I'm like, ooh, you know, what are some maybe mistakes that you've seen that that that we could avoid, right? If we if we just knew that we shouldn't approach it that

Rob Paterson (19:39)
Maybe mistakes that you've seen that we could avoid.

Jeff Forrey (19:47)
Yeah, I think I would probably summarize those types of mistakes you're referring to under the category of mistaken assumptions. I think it might be helpful to think about this question in those terms. For example, when we're with somebody who is so uncomfortable, we want to help the person feel better.

And sometimes we go into conversations with the person making the assumption, well, I've got to make this person feel better, but there's no way you can in terms of, changing the situation. Right. so it's better to go into those conversations with the desire to be present with that person. Of available if the person wants to talk.

Jason Allison (20:30)
That's good.

Jeff Forrey (20:34)
And there are going to be some grievers who really want to talk. They feel this inner tension that can only be relieved by talking about their loss, what they miss about the person, the questions they have about the future without that person. And it's wonderful if they have somebody who is willing to listen. So that ministry of presence where you're

where you're willing to listen and even ask a few questions during the time in which that person is speaking to draw that person out. That communicates you're really interested in what that person has to say. In other words, if the relationship with that deceased loved one was important to you, then I want to understand that. I'm going to give you the opportunity to share that.

Jason Allison (21:12)
Yeah.

Mm.

Rob Paterson (21:22)
Hmm.

Jeff Forrey (21:26)
So being present with that person is really important. Another mistaken assumption that we have to be careful of is assuming that everyone will go through a rigid series of steps or stages in their griefing process. Grief is a process. We liken it to a journey in our materials at Grief Share.

But it's not as if everybody will go through the same stages or experiences of grief in a linear fashion. That's simply not the way grief is experienced. ⁓

Jason Allison (22:05)
It would

be way easier and so much simpler to pastor someone if we could just predict that process. But you're right, it's stops and starts and sprinting ahead and then going backwards. And you know, it's just not neat and easy, but.

Rob Paterson (22:08)
Yeah.

Right? Yeah.

Good news. This, this step takes 22 days. You're already six days in, you know, like so much better. Just keep going for this many more.

Jason Allison (22:24)
Yeah

Jeff Forrey (22:26)
you

Jason Allison (22:30)
Yeah, that would be way more helpful. But yeah, you're right. And I've seen pastors who kind of try to speed people through the process because they think if they just hit each of those stages, then they can move on. And you know, you're the professional, but you know that that's just that doesn't work.

Rob Paterson (22:48)
Not helpful.

Jeff Forrey (22:50)
No, no, it's much better to view yourself as someone who's coming alongside the griever and joining them on the journey. You you help them out as you have opportunity on this journey. No, so that might involve doing, helping out with tasks around the house or the yard. Yeah, especially early on in the grieving experience where

people are often so distracted with so much going on, so many questions, a lot of decisions to be made, you know, with respect to funeral arrangements and so forth. So that's very, very distracting and a lot of things can slip through the cracks. And so if you can come alongside the griever and help out with some of those tasks, that would be phenomenal. Ask.

If I look for ways in which you can make contributions in that person's life, offer suggestions, because once again, the person's not going to be thinking very clearly about all those responsibilities on top of the loss itself. So if you can actually make suggestions, what if I mow your yard for the next few weeks?

Jason Allison (23:57)
Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (24:02)
or come over once a week and help you clean your house. Those kinds of ministries of mercy are very significant. But more than that, also be available to talk. Don't think that if you're going to be there, you have to do something to be productive in ministry. That may be very helpful for that person.

Jason Allison (24:21)
Hmm.

Jeff Forrey (24:24)
But if that person is more interested in talking, be available for that person to talk so that they have somebody who will listen.

Rob Paterson (24:31)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, that's so good. Jeff is you're saying those and I love just those very practical ideas, you know, be helpful, be present, be a listening ear. and, probably one of the things I like to tell people, especially like, you know, at funerals is, you know, these, this person, this family is going to have a flood of that, you know, for the next week or two, you know, other families still in town, but you know, a month from now,

six months from now, a year from now, there's still gonna be that absence in that hole. So, you know, maybe six months from now, send a nice note with a memory of that person. You know, eight months, stop by with some food and if they want you to stay, stick around for a meal and just spend time with them. know, kind of those follow-up kind of things, which I just think are so powerful over time.

you know, as you were talking about that and just how to, you know, things that we mistake and get wrong and how to be helpful. I was thinking, gosh, I was probably 21 years old, newly married, a full-time student, full-time pastor. And I went to this seminar where they were talking about kind of grief care kinds of things, especially in that immediate aftermath. And I remember one of the things that this organization said was, you know,

to my 21 year old years, sounded like the person who just died doesn't matter. Do whatever the family wants. And I just remember bristling at that. And it's like, no, you know, we need to honor the wishes of that deceased person. I remember thinking, you know, if there's question about faith, like we need to sort of give a clear gospel message because Jesus is the one that's going to help and transform as a 21 year old. And that was what was happening in my mind and heart. Now at 50, you know,

When I meet with a family who's lost someone, I literally tell them, even if you want to do it at the church, there are no rules. We will do whatever you want. you know, because, so I've gone to the other end of the spectrum, knowing that creating space, you know, like that. I remember in a funeral home one time, this family Halloween was just really, really, really important in their family and mom died and she was kind of the linchpin of all that. So the funeral home was decorated like.

like a haunted house almost. And mom's favorite song was Big and Rich's Save a Horse Ride a Cowboy. So we ended that celebration of life playing Save a Horse Ride a Cowboy. I know a lot of people, I would never do that. That's sacrilegious. But you know what? It just, everybody smiled. The family's hearts were warmed. It made a very, very difficult loss, a little bit more bearable. And it was a good gift for them.

You know, can you talk about, I mean, as, as ministers, as churches, as we think about really wanting to effectively minister to people, you know, where on that spectrum should we fall? How should we be thinking about those kinds of things?

Jeff Forrey (27:29)
Well, what came to my mind as you were sharing, Rob, is

You do need to understand as much as possible what kinds of questions the griever is now dealing with.

And that can vary, that can vary because of the person's level of maturity. You mentioned the difference in yourself between 20s and 50. As we age, we mature, our perspectives change, broaden, sometimes solidify. And so...

understanding where that person is coming from with the significance of the loss. Talking to the person about that. What are you going to miss about Joe?

Tell me some of the things you all used to love to do together. Or what are the challenges that you faced? Because sometimes, sometimes when a loved one dies, there's quote unquote unfinished business. And that can really weigh heavily on the griever.

Jason Allison (28:34)
Hmm.

Jeff Forrey (28:40)
So regrets may be another part of the experience for some grievers. And that may weigh so heavily on them, it's hard for them to move beyond that. But hearing that, having them talk about it, and then I would suggest helping them to develop over time, a biblical perspective on those kinds of questions will be significant. And I say over time, because

Rob Paterson (29:05)
Yeah.

You don't have to accomplish all that at the funeral.

Jeff Forrey (29:09)
No, no,

or even within the first few weeks. Okay. ⁓ that's why continuing interaction with the person is valuable. You know, if in a church you have, someone who can coordinate times with the griever, you know, and even have, have a schedule when people say, yeah, I'll stop by and, and see Martha, you know, this week and so, and so we'll do that next week.

Jason Allison (29:13)
Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (29:36)
Honestly, if you all can be coordinated in the types of conversations you're having with Martha, then that also will give everybody a clearer sense of how Martha is going along in her own grief journey. And it gives everybody, I think, a clearer direction of

how you can have conversations with her, what you might do practically speaking, that would be helpful for her. So that kind of coordinated effort, I think would be tremendously valuable over that period of time. And to have a lot of people, or as many people as possible, involved in that ministry effort allows the church to minister to the griever over a period of time that will be significant.

Like, because like you said, they're going to be figuring out what their life is like now without their loved one over an extended period of time. And if we're going to minister to them, we walk along with them as they're figuring that out.

Jason Allison (30:41)
Yeah, you know, Rob, I was thinking when we first started talking, you kind of referred to the congregation needing, you know, not as much inspiration as they do training. And what I'm hearing, Jeff, you say is part of the role of the pastor is to train the congregation about how do you help people in times of grief? and, you know, yes, there's the theological

process of grief and understanding loss. mean, you even Paul writes, you know, I don't want you to grieve as someone without hope. Right. So, so there's theology in that. But there's also, you know, training people to, hey, we have a, know, maybe it's a grief team, maybe it's a funeral team, you know, whatever you want to call it. And, and this is what we do and why, and then walking the congregation, not just that team, but the congregation through it.

I feel like we want to spiritualize everything and then we forget to get practical. And this is one of those things where like, and honestly, I had the pastor that I worked for in my very first ministry. He was a, I thought he was really old. He was actually the age that I am now, but he was, he was kind of, I called him the Pope because all the other pastors in town would come to him when they had issues or whatever, you know, he was just a caring.

Rob Paterson (31:37)
Hmm.

It was kind of, I called it the Pope.

Jason Allison (32:01)
wonderful guy. And he would he took me on different visits, whether it was ⁓ a, you know, planning for a funeral or doing the funeral or just so that I could see and a lot of what he did was everything you just mentioned, he didn't have it outlined, you know, or anything like that. But, but it was just that ministry of being present of asking questions of being interested in the person. And then giving some of those practical

Rob Paterson (32:05)
different visits, whether it was planning for funeral or doing a funeral, or just so that I can see. And a lot of what he did was everything he just mentioned, that he didn't have it outlined or anything like that. But it was

Jason Allison (32:29)
options when you ask them, what can I do? Because when you say, Oh, how can I help? That's overwhelming to the person who's grieving, but say, Hey, could I X, Y or Z and then let them decide and they may say, I don't need that right now. We'll give them space, you know, like all of those things. And I wonder, have you seen churches that are starting, especially using grief share and some of those resources, have you seen them start to actually train not just a small group, but like the congregation?

on processing it, how is that, you know, playing out in your experience?

Jeff Forrey (33:04)
Yeah, you mentioned grief share and I'm glad you did because I think grief share is a great place to start a grief ministry in a local church. Grief share, for those who might not be aware, grief share is a curriculum that covers a 13-week period and generally speaking the way it's implemented is that

Grievers come together for weekly meetings over period of 13 weeks. And at those meetings, they have the opportunity to interact with one another. One part of learning how to deal with grief is talking with other individuals who are experiencing grief. And one thing that that does is it helps to give you a sense of what's normal.

You know, if somebody else is experiencing the kinds of things you're experiencing, it's a reaffirmation that what I'm experiencing is not out of the ordinary, right? And you have somebody to talk to who can, you can brainstorm with in a sense of how you're dealing with it, the kinds of issues you're struggling with, what do you find helpful, that kind of thing. So

In grief share meetings, participants have the opportunity to have that kind of fellowship that is incredibly helpful for individuals who are going through this. So they know they're not alone. ⁓ But then they also will watch approximately 30 minute video on some topic associated with grief on which they'll hear from experts who

Rob Paterson (34:33)
Mm.

Jeff Forrey (34:45)
have walked with grievers through the process, plus other individuals who share their testimonies of the lessons they've learned as they've gone through the grieving process. And then there's opportunities for discussion, small group discussion. Nobody's pressured to contribute during those discussions, but even just listening can be very encouraging and hopeful.

Jason Allison (35:08)
He

Jeff Forrey (35:13)
for people who on their own aren't sure where the hope is or how to access it. But in these groups, it can be much more clear to everyone involved. And then we also provide a participant guide that has some helpful exercises and articles that we think can help the griever go from week to week.

And, you know, that is an undertaking that would benefit the congregation, although some pastors might think, I don't even have the time to get something like that started. Well, we can help with that as well, because we have ministry coaches who can come alongside anyone in your church who's interested in reaching out to grieving people. And they can

the ministry coaches can walk you through setting up this ministry and troubleshooting issues that might come up. And that's all, it's all offered free for those who are offering grief share in their church. So I think that is a very significant way of, of helping congregations become aware of this ministry to those who are grieving.

Because once you have people who go through grief share, as they experience that healing, ⁓ then they become advocates for grievers. And so that helps to spread out that ministry mindset. And as they become involved in helping out in a grief share ministry, they learn.

Jason Allison (36:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Forrey (36:53)
some of those practical skills of interacting with grievers that you're talking about. And so I think that's a great way to jumpstart this sort of thing in a church. And if you're interested in this sort of thing, you can go to our website, griefshare.org and click on the tab, host a group, and that starts you on the process.

Jason Allison (36:57)
Yeah.

Okay.

Rob Paterson (37:16)
That is great. Jeff, I have one last question. You know, if someone listening has somebody in their sphere, you know, that is grieving, and maybe they've tried to reach out, they've tried to help, they've tried to be a listening ear. And for any number of reasons, maybe that's just the sheer significance of that relationship, like you mentioned, or maybe the maturity level of the person, or maybe they just don't have access to certain necessary resources.

You know, what are some signs we should be looking for that might kind of cue us in that man, some extra professional helps, counseling, know, whatever, you know, maybe more kind of heavy duty type solutions might be, it's time for that. It's appropriate for that. You know, what should we be looking for there?

Jeff Forrey (38:03)
Yeah, yeah, that's another very significant question because there's going to be a small percentage of grievers whose struggle is so intense for so long that they lose hope and they don't know which way to turn. So for those individuals, keep in mind once again that grieving is a process that occurs over a period of months.

And generally speaking, professionals start to wonder around the six month point, if the person is saying that they don't want to talk about the deceased person, they want to avoid reminders of the deceased person. They talk about this unrelenting yearning, sorrow or bitterness.

Maybe they start to isolate from others. Or they have no desire to plan for the future or to pursue interests that they once had. They talk about how life is meaningless or hopeless. Those are the sorts of things that if they're unrelenting and ongoing for six months or 12 months, then professional help.

is certainly warranted in those cases.

Jason Allison (39:12)
Yeah, that's really good. And that's helpful. Like that's a practical thing that pastors and leaders can look for among the people that they lead that they're involved with. Because, you know, I know people who it's been 10 years since, you know, their dad died. And they're still, at times, I feel like, you know, caught in that initial stage of grief. And, you know, and I know some of it is those grief ambushes, like you said, you know, it just comes back on the

you know, on the birthday or the date that they died or, know, that makes total sense. But, you know, at what point do we need to recommend, hey, here's some resources that may help you process this. That's the one thing with pastors I found most of the time we need to admit we're not counselors. We are not licensed counselors. We are pastors and we can do pastoral listening, but there are certain points where you need to refer that person to a professional.

Rob Paterson (39:49)
That's the one thing with pastors right now. Most of the time we need to admit we're not counselors because we are not licensed counselors. We are pastors. And we can have a pastor listen to me, but there are certain points that you need to know that you're

Jason Allison (40:04)
you know, if they came in with a broken leg, you wouldn't say, well, I'm a pastor, I can fix this. You know, you take them to the ER like that. That's there are times when you've got to know your limitations and and this one gets a little mushy, right? Because it's a it's spiritual, but it's also, you know, a therapy issue, but it's also just grief. They're so you know, it gets difficult. You know, we got to bring this in for a landing. This has been so helpful. I mean, really, I appreciate your time. Maybe just to end this.

Give us a word or two that you would, if you had a group of pastors and leaders sitting in front of you and you just wanted to give them an encouragement, what might you say to them in today?

Jeff Forrey (40:45)
Hmm. I would say that although we all have our limitations, you as a pastor have a tremendous opportunity to make a huge impact in somebody's life. If you're willing to come alongside that person and walk along with that person throughout this individual's grief journey, that is such an incredible

opportunity to show individuals first of all the love, the compassion of Jesus Christ. To remind that person that the love of the Lord will always be here and I want to be a conduit of that love for you. What a tremendous reminder to that person of the promises of God. So then that's very, very significant.

Regardless of what other help the person may need, that becomes a foundation for moving forward in life with hope and eventually joy.

Jason Allison (41:50)
Yeah, that's great. I appreciate that. know, you know, I've always said, Rob and I both have said this, we would much rather serve a family, you know, in preparing for a funeral than in preparing for a wedding, because they're just so ready to be ministered to in that moment, right? They're at a point where I can actually be Jesus, you know, His hands and His feet to them, I can care for them. And so, yeah, I thank you for that encouragement to our pastors, to our leaders.

Thanks for the resources that you continue to refine and create. I will of course put links in the show notes for people to check out grief share, to check out even divorce care, which we didn't even get into today, and some of the other things that Church Initiative offers. But thanks for your time. And just that, I just sense in you that that heart ⁓ of caring about people and.

Rob Paterson (42:33)
I just said to you that that's what I'm hearing about.

And too often as leaders.

Jason Allison (42:38)
Too often as leaders, we

start thinking about vision and strategies and organizational stuff and we forget our primary calling is to love people. And that you just reminded us that in so many ways today. So Jeff, thank you to our listeners. Have an amazing week. We look forward to hearing from you. Please feel free to send us an email or a text or something so that we can hear maybe some stories of how you've seen grief play out in the lives of your parishioners and the lives of your congregation.

And if you have any questions or would like to be connected with Jeff or that organization, just let us know. We'd love to help make that happen. And as always, we ask that you take a moment and review the podcast, subscribe, share it with some friends, because we want to help as many pastors and leaders as we possibly can, because that's why we exist, to engage, equip, and encourage pastors. Have a great week.

Rob Paterson (43:24)
to engage with women and groups that have a green light.