Coachable Leaders with Gary Rohrmayer

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss significant transitions in church leadership, including mergers and personal growth experiences. They introduce guest Gary Rohrmayer, who shares his journey in ministry, the importance of coachability, and the concept of spiritual authority in leadership. The conversation emphasizes the need for pastors and leaders to remain open to guidance and the transformative power of God in their lives. In this conversation, Gary Rohrmayer discusses the importance of coaching in ministry, emphasizing the need for mental toughness and emotional intelligence among pastors. He shares personal experiences and insights on how being coachable and embracing reality can lead to effective leadership. The discussion also highlights the current wave of young people coming to faith and the role of churches in fostering this growth. Rohrmayer encourages leaders to align their ministries with God's work and to seek coaching for personal and professional development.

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Chapters

00:00 Navigating Church Mergers and Transitions
03:01 Finding God in Everyday Moments
05:47 Introducing Gary Rohrmayer: A Journey in Ministry
11:59 The Call to Ministry and Church Planting
18:11 The Importance of Coachability in Leadership
21:00 Understanding Spiritual Authority in Leadership
23:22 The Journey of Coaching in Ministry
27:04 Building Mental Toughness in Pastoral Leadership
32:20 Embracing Reality as a Coachable Leader
39:42 The Importance of Alignment and Coaching
44:07 A New Wave of Faith and Leadership

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the church talk podcast with Robin Jason. ⁓ I am so glad that you would take a few minutes and just hang out with us today. I'm sure we've got. I know we've got some great conversation ahead of us. I'm excited, but Rob I this I just feel like I have to tell you this, but last so it's been a couple weeks. I guess by the time this comes out, you know we announced to the church that I serve that we are merging with.

a much larger church and we're going to become a campus. ⁓ you know, it's been interesting to walk through that process. This will be the one, two, three, third merger in six years that I've had to navigate ⁓ with the church, starting out as a church plant that didn't even exist and merging that with ⁓ something that I had planted and now, you know, becoming a campus of this massive church ⁓ and so forth.

And, it was interesting. We had the big announcement and you know, we did, we had already. Dripped out the information, you know, in, the appropriate ways, but, ⁓ it was just interesting. And I'm just curious, like, you know, in your neck of the woods, like Rob, what, kind of, do you get anything major like that going on? Cause this is like life changing for me in a lot of ways, but it also means I get to spend more time with you and we know that's your goal, right?

Rob Paterson (01:27)
haha

you know what? ⁓ it's interesting. I was just thinking about this. I don't know if you have spaces like this, but for me it's when I'm mowing the lawn, you know, I live on 20 acres and five acres of that ish is lawn. So my first big purchase was a very expensive, ⁓ riding lawnmower zero turn that goes like 50, you can mow at 15 miles an hour. So it's a pretty significant, but I find that God speaks to me when I'm on

mower. You know, I don't listen to music. have headphones so my hearing is protected and things like that that I just wear. um, and quite honestly, sometimes that is like a very good thing and I feel blessed. And there's other times where I feel like God has me captive for a few hours. And so he like, you know, sometimes it's like tormenting and, um, quite honestly, yesterday I was mowing in the afternoon and I just had this sense. I was thinking about

Jason Allison (02:00)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (02:28)
Easter and all of the new people and all the people who made decisions to follow Jesus. I was thinking about, you know, I shared in last week's episode of just about being able to pray with and for a 28 year old young lady who is battling cancer and that like literally the whole church came up, hundreds of people just gathering around her and it was such a blessing for her. ⁓ as I'm mowing, I'm getting text messages that are popping into my watch that I'm seeing. ⁓

Jason Allison (02:38)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (02:57)
you know, that are people like, the words you shared this morning really like challenged me. And I'm so thankful for that. And so, you know, I, don't really have any new or major things to report, but I just, I, you know, I, as I was mowing, thankfully I was not tormented by God. It was more of a season where I just thought, ⁓ God is so good. And it's just so fun to get to be faithfully a part of that.

Jason Allison (03:01)
Yeah.

I don't know if I have any new words.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:23)
and to see how he uses our faithfulness over a long period of time to make a difference in people's lives.

Jason Allison (03:28)
Yeah, well, that's, you know, that's what this podcast is all about is, you know, engaging, equipping and encouraging pastors and leaders. And sometimes that engagement is, you know, God taking you through the wringer. Sometimes it's major transitions and sometimes it's just sitting back and enjoying seeing God work. ⁓ And so I'm glad we get to share today. We have a guest today that is a longtime friend of yours, Rob. I it's a long time.

He's been a long time acquaintance of mine. can't say that he and I have spent a ton of time together, but we've known of each other for gosh, decades, probably. ⁓

Rob Paterson (04:07)
Well, and

Jason, like I do have to say one thing about that because I've known him way longer than you, but we were both at exponential together. I actually took you to exponential with my group, right? ⁓ but Gary handed you his book, not me. I just, I just need to say that for the record. ⁓ you know, for what it's worth, I'm going to carry no bitterness past this podcast, but I just needed to say that.

Jason Allison (04:10)
Yes.

You did, you did.

Gary Rohrmayer (04:33)
Well, I didn't,

didn't, you know what? We didn't get to interact. That was the problem. We saw each other, but it was across the room.

Jason Allison (04:40)
See?

Rob Paterson (04:42)
Gary,

Jason Allison (04:42)
See,

Rob Paterson (04:43)
were,

Jason Allison (04:43)
I'm.

Rob Paterson (04:43)
we were in a pre-con together of the, the CLPF and there was like 30 people in the room. was plenty of interaction opportunity.

Jason Allison (04:51)
Yeah, but see, I'm that annoying guy that actually comes

up and says hi and talks for a minute while you're sitting there working on your computer. See that? That's that's how I get the free stuff. I'm annoying. They give it to me so I'll go away. That's that's how it works. Well, we do. We have with us Gary Roe Meyer. Gary, you know, I knew you for years as the regional president of Converge Mid America.

Gary Rohrmayer (04:57)
We'll see.

Rob Paterson (04:57)
⁓ that's

true. Yeah. ⁓ I like it. I like it.

Gary Rohrmayer (05:05)
Let's do it.

Jason Allison (05:17)
⁓ and, and I can honestly say like just, just as a, you know, I'm in a different region, but we're kind of adjacent, you know, but watching how you led that, you know, it was, very remarkable. I mean, there was just amazing growth in that region and for various reasons, but watching how you were able to manage that, ⁓ and see that grow was always something that I, I just really admired that, ⁓ about you and for everybody else listening, I, know, you are a well-known leader in the area of coaching.

⁓ You're an executive coach. You've trained hundreds of coaches and really from almost 40 years you have been on the front line of all this. ⁓ Some of the other things about you. I just got a little paragraph here. I want to make sure I hit the important stuff, but you know you over the decades you've led startup ministries. You have transformed historic ⁓ organizations. You've you got a lot of degrees like I'm.

I don't know if I'm jealous or not, but you got a lot of degrees ⁓ and you've authored like 17 books. ⁓ one of which we're going to talk about today, ⁓ that, that, you know, it's what I love about the book is it's extremely readable. It's very, it's a quick, easy read, but it's just, it's like, it's almost like you're walking into a boxing ring and you just get jab, jab, jab, jab, jab over and over, ⁓ cause it's just really good stuff. ⁓ currently you just, ⁓ you are president of accelerate.org.

which is a organization committed to coaching. And I know that's kind of your central focus since you have really retired. guess I don't know if that's the right word, but from. Da there you go. I like that I like that. Well, maybe I yes. Yeah, I like it. I like it. I don't know it maybe for for our listeners fill in any gaps. I mean, I left tons of gaps I know, but.

Gary Rohrmayer (06:53)
It's called a rewirement. It's rewirement.

Rob Paterson (07:00)
I see a book.

Gary Rohrmayer (07:01)
Look,

there we go. Rewirement. There we go. Good title. That's right.

Rob Paterson (07:05)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (07:14)
A little bit of your story, how you got into ministry.

Gary Rohrmayer (07:18)
Yeah, well, I grew up, you know, in a family of entrepreneurs and my great grandfather was a restaurateur in Chicago. and then, and then my grandfather, you know, operate, both my grandfathers operated small and medium sized manufacturing business. And then my dad went and started his own business and I grew up in that whole environment. And, ⁓ and then after kind of dramatic conversion, I went to a Billy Graham crusade.

And my girlfriend who's now my wife and still my girlfriend. that's right. That's right.

Jason Allison (07:51)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:56)
It's good to have those be the same.

Jason Allison (07:57)
Yeah. Well, and if you are part of, you know, this restaurant

family in Chicago, that generally has mob connections and you know, there's a whole bunch of storylines there.

Gary Rohrmayer (08:09)
Yeah,

well, it's way way, you know, 19, 1917 or 1918 or whatever it was. anyway, you know, came to Christ and basically got a call to to go to the mission field, went to my first missions conference and heard this, heard this pastor's way.

Jason Allison (08:12)
Ha

Gary Rohrmayer (08:35)
move my call to ministry, derive my call from ministry from this missionary from Hong Kong was preaching and I was sitting up in the alpher balcony of our church and first missions come, I didn't really know what a missionary was and he got up and said, says, all you Christians here, all you do is fight with each other while millions of people are dying each day without even hearing the name of Jesus. And ⁓ that moved me, it still moves me today, those words, know, that thought.

and, ⁓ and that, so the next day I went, ⁓ to my workplace and I met for lunch with a mature Christian and he was discipling me. And, and I just said, and I knew that he had what he had been a missionary and had to come back because he got sick. He was a missionary in the jungles of Brazil. And, and, and I said, I said, what, does a missionary do anyway? His name was Ray. said, Ray, what does a missionary do anyway? And, and, and.

Jason Allison (09:25)
Wow.

Gary Rohrmayer (09:35)
Ray said, well, know, there's all sorts of missionaries and he can explain the whole field of missiology and all this stuff. And then he asked me the big question and he said, well, why are you asking me this? And I said, I don't know. think God wants me to be one of those. And he said, well, you need to get a good solid Bible education and that should be your first step. And so.

Jason Allison (09:52)
Go.

Gary Rohrmayer (10:02)
You know, within a year, my wife and I, we'd been married, we moved to Chicago, to a, basically wanted to go to a school in an urban center because we figured if we could live in an urban center, we could live anywhere in the world. And we ended up going to Moody Bible Institute. so ⁓ right in the heart of Chicago and learned a lot about ministry. And, you know, we were there for like eight years. did graduate school.

all that stuff and did a couple of internships there. And yeah, and that's where it all began. And then, you we were looking to go overseas and we, you know, our middle son was born with a major heart defect and he needed like 10 surgeries and God's grace, he's just turned 39 years old this weekend. so, and he's got two little boys and he's doing great. And, but,

Jason Allison (10:47)
Mm.

Gary Rohrmayer (11:01)
Yeah. So we, once we knew we couldn't plant churches overseas, my wife looked, what are we going to do now? said, well, we can't plant churches overseas. Let's plant them here. And so we began looking for partners and we got hooked up with Converge. ⁓ and, you know, I made, it was very interesting. I made calls to various denominations and groups and networks that I felt I could affiliate with doctrinally and, ⁓

Jason Allison (11:11)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (11:30)
And those calls didn't go very well. And then I get it. And actually prepared me for my future job, which was, you know, recruiting first planners and then recruiting pastors and that kind of stuff. And bottom line is that I met this guy who was part of Converge, the old Baptist general conference. And, and he saw where I lived and he said, Hey, you're not too far from our office. I'd love to buy you lunch. I'd love to hear your story.

Jason Allison (11:32)
Hahaha!

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:59)
Mm.

Jason Allison (11:59)
Mm.

Gary Rohrmayer (12:00)
And, you know, and that's the way I've done recruiting and, you know, is just listening to people's and seeing them intersect with God's work in this world. so that's how we got hooked up with Converge. We planted our first church in a little town called Oconama Walk, Wisconsin, one of the hardest names to pronounce. ⁓

Jason Allison (12:08)
Yeah.

one.

Gary Rohrmayer (12:29)
And we were there 10 years, planted that church. And ⁓ soon after we became kind of successful in planting it, we got involved in coaching leaders and coaching. asked me, Gary, want to coach church planners? And, you know, and so I said, sure. And so I kind of cut my teeth on coaching early on in my ministry. and it was, was a great time in our Wisconsin region. We went from 40 churches when I got there and when I.

Jason Allison (12:48)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (12:58)
When I left in 2000, 10 years later, they had 126 churches and it was just phenomenal growth and really was the spark for church planting in the greater converge area. And so, then after 10 years, I was asked to lead the church planting effort in Chicago, moved back to Chicago.

Jason Allison (13:05)
Wow.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (13:27)
So we've been in Chicago area for now 27 years ⁓ and led that led to Converge Mid-America for, you know, I was a church playing leader for 12 years and then the ⁓ president for the last 14, 15 years. so, yeah, so it's been ⁓ a great run and God's transformed our little fellowship into a major force and ⁓

Jason Allison (13:30)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (13:58)
And then I had the honor of ⁓ handing that off to my successor, Danny Parmley, and ⁓ he's doing a great job. ⁓

Jason Allison (14:07)
Yeah, we

Rob Paterson (14:08)
It's so good.

Jason Allison (14:08)
actually had Danny on the podcast a couple months ago. Yeah, he he said a lot of things about you. might want to go back and listen to that one. ⁓

Gary Rohrmayer (14:11)
great. Great.

Rob Paterson (14:17)
⁓

Gary Rohrmayer (14:18)
Thanks.

Rob Paterson (14:21)
Gary, I love as you were sharing your story and I think about this all the time. ⁓ just, you know, my wife and I have a couple of boys and you you talk about growing up in an entrepreneurial family and you know, there's a lot of things we can kind of acquire after the fact, but man, when it, when we're around things and they are instilled in us our entire lives, you know, it's just so much more natural. think it's,

Gary Rohrmayer (14:29)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (14:46)
so much more easy to be successful. But then you have this encounter with Jesus that take these great sort of tools and experiences that were really, you know, became part of your DNA out of your family that you could have used, you know, to be successful, probably in a lot of ways, probably made way more money, all that kind of stuff. But when you have this encounter with Jesus, it so changes and shapes you that you're like, I've got to I've got to use who I am for the kingdom.

And, ⁓ and even sitting down with that missionary, you know, to be coachable, to, want to learn from others. ⁓ even in the beginning of your story, I mean, it just, what a perfect thing for this new book you've written called coachable leaders. and I'm wondering, you know, as I think about that in your book, you say that coachability is just really one's ability to take advice. ⁓ what, which seems so simple. It seems so easy. We should all do that.

Gary Rohrmayer (15:39)
Yes. ⁓

Rob Paterson (15:44)
⁓ you know, why, why do you think this is maybe a little bit more challenging to cultivate for a lot of pastors and ministry types?

Gary Rohrmayer (15:44)
Right.

Well, I think we're trained to kind of be teachers, right? And we have to kind of, I think you have to learn leadership in the midst of leading. so leadership is not going to be learned in the classroom. It's going to be learned as you do it. And so you kind of get to a point where you

You know, early on, I always talk about like the first two years of ministry. That was the, you know, I read all the books about church planting. did church planting internships, all that kind of stuff. But you don't know it until you're there in the midst of it and you have zero people and zero money. And you're trying to create a viable work of God in there and you get to your wit's end and you're, you you.

You basically become coachable, right? And it's part of being broken, right? Part of being shaped by God. And ultimately we're all followers. And when we get down to it, we're all followers of Jesus. We all need to submit to his authority in our lives. And the great...

Jason Allison (16:55)
It's beaten into you.

Rob Paterson (16:55)
Yeah, yeah

Gary Rohrmayer (17:16)
Greatest leaders are the coachable leaders, the greatest teacher are the teachable leaders, you know, and that's a key thing. I think of Apollos, you know, he's one of the examples I talk about, know, Apollos was a great, you know, ⁓ orator, you know, a man who knew the Scriptures, and he was out there basically boldly preaching, and this couple...

This couple of tent makers come up and they're listening and they're hearing him and they basically, know, Priscilla and Aquila invite him into their home, the scriptures say, and they explained to him the way of God more accurately. And you don't see Apollo's fighting it. You don't see Apollo's, you know, getting stiff and defensive and all that stuff.

Jason Allison (18:11)
Yeah, yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (18:12)
⁓ The scriptures really say he received it. And God used his life, you know, greatly, even to the point where people were comparing him to the apostle Paul, you know, and but he didn't believe the press, you know, and he maintained that relationship with Paul. And I like the fact that, you know, the very end of ⁓ in the book of Titus, you know, it talks about.

Jason Allison (18:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (18:41)
Apollo's and delivering basically delivering, you know, probably was delivering the letter to Titus from Paul and, and here he was doing great things and Paul says, Hey, you know, embrace these guys, encourage these guys as they continue to work of God. And so, so I think it's really critical that throughout his life, he w he was somebody who was honored and, ⁓ and, and

Jason Allison (19:01)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (19:10)
trusted and reliable because ultimately he was coachable. He was to slow up.

Jason Allison (19:15)
Yeah, yeah, well, you know,

Rob Paterson (19:15)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (19:18)
I mean, so your book is is 10 marks of a coachable leader and and you know mark number one, which is, you know, a coachable leader understands the concept of spiritual authority. And I think this goes right along with what you were just just talking about. You know what? Why do you start with this idea of spiritual authority when you're talking about coaching ⁓ a leader?

Gary Rohrmayer (19:45)
Right, well, mean, you know, our influence comes from God, right? And what are we expanding? We're not expanding our, you know, ourselves, our platform, you know, we're basically wanting to see God's authority reign throughout the world, right? And this concept, actually, I discovered this concept in a book I read literally two years in the ministry by...

Rob Paterson (19:50)
Hmm. Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (20:13)
Robert Clinton called the make the making of a leader and profound impact on my life and ⁓ understanding you know and very interesting you know if you read that more closely you discover that Robert Clinton had a leadership transformation around this concept of spiritual authority he read watchman he's book watch but he has a book called spiritual authority and and he read that and it

Jason Allison (20:17)
Yep.

Rob Paterson (20:17)
Mm.

Jason Allison (20:38)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (20:41)
changed him, he quotes, watched for me in the books several times. ⁓ But it was a transformational thing in his life that he understood that spiritual authority, and he basically says it's something that's delegated by God. We're not talking about the Holy Spirit, we're talking about God's authority on a believer's life that helps them take the gospel further.

Jason Allison (20:57)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (21:00)
Thank

Jason Allison (21:01)
Right.

Gary Rohrmayer (21:09)
and impacts people's lives. so, you know, so it's something that can be delegated. That means it can be taken away, it can be given away. And we see that in King Saul's life, right? I mean, what an example, right? You know, and so he was given authority and the authority was taken away from him, right? Because of his disobedience to the Lord. so, so that, you know, to me, that's, this is, you know, I'm

Rob Paterson (21:12)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (21:19)
Right.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (21:38)
Basically, this is a coaching book, but it's distinctly Christian, you know, and it's for Christian leaders. mean, I think the principles are for every, give me for any leader out there, but, ⁓ you know, and so I really start with that concept because I think it's foundational. It's foundational ⁓ because God wants to do, you know, and I knew this, I learned this.

Rob Paterson (21:40)
.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (22:04)
in my first church plant, I learned this when I became a church planning director, and I learned it when I became a president, and I'm relearning it again in my rewirement. And I just find that always those first couple of years, in any ministry transition or something goes on, God is gonna do a work in shaping you, because you're more important than ultimately, yes, the work is important, but God is using people.

Rob Paterson (22:13)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (22:13)
Yeah

Rob Paterson (22:23)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (22:33)
to convey his message to the world. And he shapes us, he transforms us. so, ⁓ you know, so I'm kind of in the midst of that now, this rewirement, right? And so ⁓ where God is, you know, shaping and forming me, I'm on the potter's wheel, you know, and he's getting the lumps out and all that kind of good stuff. And so I think it just, you know, because you can have authority, you can have expert authority.

Rob Paterson (22:35)
Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (23:03)
You can have positional authority. ⁓ But really, two, spiritual authority is the one that's gonna help us advance the cause of Christ in the world. And we come under God's authority and allow him to use us ⁓ in powerful ways.

Jason Allison (23:15)
Mm.

Yeah, it's good.

Rob Paterson (23:22)
That's so good. That's so good.

Gary, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself a number of years ago, my wife was invited to ⁓ be a part of this ⁓ ministry that's run that basically helps train, you know, pastors, wives and, and, and, and groups like that. And so she went through this thing and then they were like, Hey, we want you to be one of our people.

And, and Bethany, was a great organization, great leadership, all that sort of stuff. But Bethany declined because even in that cohort, she's like, there were so many conversations where people were like, ⁓ it's so hard. Or this person said a mean thing about me or my spouse or one of my kids are like, you know, like that was somehow like, you know, special or unique. And, and my wife was like, you chose to go into ministry.

It's going to be hard. Like people are there's, you know, it's going to be difficult. And I love you say in page 21 of your book, leadership is intense. It's emotional and fatiguing leadership demands a certain level of mental toughness. And if you have a coach who believes in you and is willing to walk alongside you, ⁓ that is critical for your success. So I, I'm wondering, like, how would you say that being a coachable leader, ⁓

a coachable pastor, you know, whatever helps people to develop some of that mental toughness and just toughness in general that you need to survive for a long time in the field of ministry.

Gary Rohrmayer (24:51)
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, one thing is you kind of learn not to take yourself so seriously. It's not all about you. You know, I mean, I think that, you know, and it takes a while to learn that. mean, because, you know, in the beginning, you're trying to, you know, in some sense, you're trying to prove yourself and all these things and the human element, right. The flesh, you know, just wants to eat away at that. And and so

I think that, you know, again, it's, you know, because if you if you're so serious about yourself, right, then you're going to then you're going to you're going to be easily offended, you know, and and coach ability, you know, as part of, you know, humility is a key ingredient to being coachable and and and being humble and, you know, learning how to

Jason Allison (25:40)
Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (25:50)
handle success correctly, you know, is important. ⁓ you know, I mean, there was times I certainly, certainly probably didn't handle success in my younger years, you know, and, and ⁓ well, and, ⁓ but I think that that humble approach ⁓ is going to be key to longevity and, and understanding, you know, it's,

that there are big things that are, know, big ⁓ things happening in this world beyond us and our ideas that are ⁓ more important than our egos and thoughts and things of that nature. God is in the business of, you know, ⁓ shaping us, molding us. ⁓

Rob Paterson (26:34)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (26:49)
touching us and healing us and all those things. But if you make it about the mission, make it about God, make it about people you're serving, ⁓ that's gonna be a critical thing.

Jason Allison (27:04)
Yeah, well, so I'm just curious. I mean, you've coached, I'm sure hundreds of pastors over the years. ⁓ Can you think of a time or an example where, you know, you're coaching a pastor and you can just tell they really need in some ways to toughen up, you know, I mean, like they're just kind of, they're, they're, they're really struggling because they just, they just need to develop some mental toughness. ⁓

Rob Paterson (27:04)
That's good.

Jason Allison (27:32)
How have you, how have you as a coach approach that? And then maybe what is that? What does that look like for a pastor today as they're trying to approach? I mean, let's be honest, it's a tough time to be a pastor. ⁓ and so they, we need some mental toughness if we're going to survive. ⁓ I don't know. What are some things that you've, you've seen work?

Gary Rohrmayer (27:53)
Well, think, think number one, they, they, you know, they kind of need to be heard. Right. And I think that's in a coaching relationship. You know, we believe, you know, one of our little mottos that I've championed, you know, early on in my ministry is that no leader should lead alone. Right. And so, um, you know, we believe every, every pastor should have a coach, every leader should have a coach, you know, and they should have somebody that they, outside of their sphere of influence, that's supporting encouraging them. And, uh,

and think that's really critical. so, when we think about just this idea of ⁓ mental toughness, and I think part of it is that they gotta be in a place where they're heard, right? And I think a coaching relationship is a good place for that. ⁓ Where some of their, because there's hurts in ministry all the time.

And this goes back to Paul's letters. I mean, you read the endings of his letters and he talks about people who left him and deserted him and you know, there's a lot of pain ⁓ in this and not even, know, I mean, he has a whole list of all the physical pain that he went through, right? But then he says, but far beyond that is the burden I carry for the churches. The pain of that.

Jason Allison (29:19)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (29:21)
Right? And so, so there's pain, right? And, and, and that's going to be, you know, number one, dealing it, dealing with that in your relationship with God. You know, when your heart is, your heart toughens up, your mind gets straightened out, right? You get clear thinking, you know, through the scriptures, within the word of God, you know, you know, wash over your mind and your thinking and your thought patterns and

is there's something supernatural about it and, that depending on, you know, God to carry it through, ⁓ those seasons. And, ⁓ I think I think it's very important. And so, you know, I've seen, you know, I'll give you just one example. So I was coaching this pastor and as a church planter and, and, and he was talking about, you know,

a person who left his church. And he was just really, I mean, for basically, you know, 45 minutes of our coaching time, it was, you he was, you know, I just kept asking him questions and just listening to the hymn. And then I, you know, and he just couldn't let go of this pain in his heart. Over this, I said, well, you know, you've had lots of people leave your church. I mean, you've been there, but he was experienced in the ministry.

you know, before starting a church. And I said, you've had a lot of, you know, a lot of that. So what is unique about this situation? And goes, and he finally, it opened up our relationship when he said, when I asked that question, he said, he said, well, my best friend left the church.

Jason Allison (31:10)
Hmm. ⁓

Gary Rohrmayer (31:12)
And boom, I'm now I'm just like both this, like all of us were engaged, right? We're in, we know, we know what that feels like. We know what that experience is. And I had to help, you know, we had to just talk that through, right. But I, I empathized with them. was, you know, I was there in his world, you know, at that point and walking in his shoes and experiencing what he was experiencing. And, and I think.

Jason Allison (31:16)
Yep. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:18)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:26)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (31:40)
Part of him getting tougher in thinking was working through the emotions of that. And that's what we talk about. Coachability is this aspect of ⁓ receiving, accepting feedback, taking advice with courage and emotional awareness that allows us to grow, mature, and succeed. it's only through that emotional... ⁓

Jason Allison (31:45)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (31:58)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jason Allison (32:01)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (32:10)
that emotional courage that we can really embrace those things and ⁓ move forward. And really it toughens our minds, right?

Jason Allison (32:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:21)
Well, you know, so, ⁓ I'm with my job. I'm transitioning, you know, now that I'm full time with conversion, you know, doing the director of church strengthening thing and, you know, transitioning out of a local church setting. And that's just, it's a process and it'll take several months, you know, for everything to settle. But, you know, one of the first things I did was actually called the, I don't know that his title is still director of church strengthening. ⁓ now he's vice president or something.

Gary Rohrmayer (32:27)
Thank you.

Jason Allison (32:49)
⁓ there in converge mid America is old friend of mine, Brian moke. And I said, Brian, I, you've been doing this for a while. Would you help coach me through these first few months of transition? You know, because what he provides for me, even though, I mean, I'm a guy who trains coaches, but I need a coach. And so I said, you know, help me do it, but he provides an outside perspective. Now it's, not an uninformed perspective, right? Cause he's in ministry. No, no.

Rob Paterson (33:02)
because what he provides for me, even though I'm a guy who trains coaches, but I need a coach. And so I said, me, he provides an outside. No, it's not a for.

Gary Rohrmayer (33:07)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Jason Allison (33:19)
But it's outside enough that it really kind of helps me, which Mark number seven of the of the 10 marks is, you know, embracing reality, right? Well, he helps me see it a little more clearly. But you know, when you think of embracing reality and how a coachable person can embrace reality, you know, what do you what do you mean by that? And how does what does that look like?

Gary Rohrmayer (33:45)
Well, we have to, you know, always kind of define where we're at, right? Ground zero, where are we at? And because if you can't really define it, embrace it, you're not going to move on from it, right? And so, I think that's really a critical piece. And so,

Jason Allison (33:51)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:59)
Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (34:09)
I think that as leaders, sometimes we're, it's amazing to me how pastors kind of struggle over the numbers, right? And numbers are important. God even wrote a book. Right? And so numbers are important.

Jason Allison (34:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (34:37)
Part of that is trying to train young leaders to embrace the numbers. That's what embracing reality, and learning from that, being coachable from your experience, right? ⁓ And then, you know, and learning how to set goals, measure them, all those things, and see the progression of the ministry, right? And so, but there's an emotional awareness of just accepting that. This doesn't define me.

Jason Allison (34:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (35:07)
Right? These numbers don't define me. Christ defines me. And you find ⁓ comfort in your identity in Christ. It's not your identity as a, you know, it's like a friend of mine said once, said, he was in real estate and he said, my, my ad vocation is being a realtor. My vocation is being a follower of Jesus Christ. And it's the same thing with pastors.

Jason Allison (35:07)
Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (35:38)
Our ad vocation, what we get paid for, right, is leading a ministry or leading a church. But ultimately, our vocation is that we're all followers of Christ. And I think growing in your identity in Christ will help you embrace the reality of the situation and not take it personal. We used the NCD in our...

Jason Allison (35:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (36:08)
coaching ⁓ of pastors. was basically an assessment, the self-assessment that churches do ⁓ to really kind of help them define reality, where they're at, what their people are thinking about. The numbers help you divide reality and then the opinions and thoughts of leaders help you define reality. And so we were always encouraging churches to do that. And it's amazing that

Jason Allison (36:20)
Yep.

Gary Rohrmayer (36:37)
The churches who incorporated that into the life of their church, we, know, on an ongoing basis, and they actually have the research now because it's all, there's a whole data side of it that really shows that, you know, if a church does this once a year and they do it for three years, it has a dramatic impact on their church. And we have churches have done it, you know, seven, eight, nine, 10 years in a row. you know, so they get this routine we used to call made.

Jason Allison (36:47)
Yeah. yeah.

you

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (37:07)
Church Health Month. because we encourage churches to, okay, now's your time to do your self-assessment. But the amazing thing is pastors would do that. And I remember one pastor calling me and they scored low. And usually it's very interesting. We see patterns after a while.

Jason Allison (37:08)
Yeah.

Mm.

Gary Rohrmayer (37:34)
but they have these eight characteristics of a healthy church, right? And ⁓ one of those is passionate spirituality. Well, in new church plants, typically growing church plants, church plants that are seeing, know, actively grown in the first couple of years, ⁓ we've seen they usually score low on passionate spirituality, which is really talking about spiritual formation, discipleship.

Jason Allison (37:59)
Great.

Gary Rohrmayer (38:00)
And it all makes sense because now you get new believers who are telling you, we want more deeper stuff, right? And ⁓ so this pastor, so we always did a little assessment with the church, but we'd always do it privately with the pastor first. ⁓ And so, ⁓ and this pastor, was like, what does this, you know, we scored a little on passion of spirituality.

Jason Allison (38:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (38:29)
Right. And his score wasn't actually that low numerically. was very high consistently, you know, and, ⁓ but their lowest score, cause you're going to have a low score in anything. And he says to me, he says, he says, what does this say about me as a leader? You know, ⁓ and I'm going, it's not about you. This is not about you. It's not saying that you're not passionately.

Jason Allison (38:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm, yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:50)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (38:56)
You know, you're not passionate in your spirituality. It's it's it's you know, it's helping you define reality. You know, it's not a silver bullet that it's helping you point you in a direction that you need to give a focus in your ministry this next year on getting these new believers into discipling relationships. Right. And so anyway, but but but yeah, was like so it was.

Jason Allison (39:00)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:02)
That's

Jason Allison (39:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:19)
So good.

Gary Rohrmayer (39:25)
You know, he basically took that information that the church was sharing. He goes, well, I'm the leader, not what to say about me. You know, right. And, and so.

Jason Allison (39:30)
Yeah, defining

Rob Paterson (39:32)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:33)
reality doesn't mean it's all about you. It simply means defining the reality around you so that

Gary Rohrmayer (39:36)
That's great.

Yes.

Jason Allison (39:40)
you can respond. That's good.

Rob Paterson (39:42)
Yeah, that is good.

So Gary, ⁓ you know, anyone listening to this podcast probably by now is like, okay, so we're, we're at least in part talking about this new book, coachable leaders and, ⁓ man, Robin Jason seemed to have enjoyed it and benefit and are benefiting from it. And man, Gary, he's a practitioner. You know, he, ⁓ he has coached a lot of people, so probably has a lot of experience and a lot of things to say about that. But you know,

I think for all of us man, you know, just like ⁓ alignment is important too. So, you know, I mean, when can you just like maybe share a story of a time where for you, you know, just you had a coach speak into your life. You were coached in a way, even as a high capacity leader who could probably have figured it out on your own. ⁓ where, know, just sort of practicing this man, it just made a big difference for you.

Gary Rohrmayer (40:30)
Yeah, cool.

Yeah. Oh, well, it goes all the way back to my, know, Tom Neibull was my, my coach back, back in the day. then Greg Heinch was one of my coaches during the day. I've always had kind of coaches in my life that have submitted to different processes. Bob Logan, who wrote the forward, we, and I went through a season of coaching and, uh, and I was really

certified through his whole process, his coaching process and those things. And so I've always had people in my life, you know, I've invited the kind of that feedback, invited the feedback, invited, you know, looked for advice, right? And tried to just maintain that posture, you know, of being coachable, being teachable. And, you know, even, even

You know, as a, know, when you become an executive leader, you do 360 reviews, all that kind of stuff. You know, those are always painful, you know. And, uh, um, but, you know, I mean, that's all part of the, part of the process of being a growing, being a growing leader. And so, um, so I think of, you know, there, I mean, there was a season I remembered very directly as a pastor, um,

with Greg Heinz kind of saved my bacon, you know, at basic, but by backside in a sense by ⁓ saved my backside and by, ⁓ you know, navigating me through a conflict ⁓ that was brewing. And, ⁓ and if I would have just not went to him and said, Hey, can you help me navigate this or brought it up our coaching relationship?

Jason Allison (42:16)
Hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (42:28)
I mean, I don't know where, I don't know where it would have went. I mean, cause it was just, it was like, he said, Hey, you know, I wouldn't, you know, just encourage me, ⁓ you know, to react, respond. ⁓ and he gave me a place to articulate what I was feeling in those moments. And, ⁓ you know, and so that was, that was really critical. I mean, there was a time where Dan Peterson.

Jason Allison (42:31)
Hahaha.

Gary Rohrmayer (42:58)
became a new president. mean he helped me, his words of advice still ring in my head today. Where he helped me navigate an early on situation that you know if I would have reacted you know ⁓ and not responded ⁓ thoughtfully you know ⁓ to the situation who knows where that would have taken us.

Jason Allison (43:19)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (43:27)
And so those are kind of moments ⁓ that are real critical.

Rob Paterson (43:27)
Yeah, that's great.

Jason Allison (43:33)
Yeah, that's well, we have something in common then, because Dan Peterson was my church planting coach when I coached or when I when I first planted. ⁓ Yeah, that's interesting. Well, I mean, we are just about out of time here. ⁓ Time has flown. I appreciate all your wisdom and insight. ⁓ You know, maybe just to kind of bring it home as you're thinking about the pastors and the leaders who would be

Rob Paterson (43:33)
Mm-hmm.

Gary Rohrmayer (43:39)
Yeah.

It's cool.

Jason Allison (43:59)
you know, listening to this podcast, you know, do you have any like words of encouragement that maybe you'd want to share with them?

Gary Rohrmayer (44:07)
Well, you I think there's something brewing. You know, I would say this just on the spiritual side, know, and we're seeing some of this and some of the statistics on that. But then also just stories that I'm hearing around the country of ⁓ young people coming to faith in large numbers. And the Gen Z population is, ⁓ there's something happening.

And we see it in the growing churches, the churches that are consistently putting themselves out there to reach out to their communities and encouraging their people to reach out. ⁓ It's amazing, since COVID, the number of, like the church I personally attend, the number of 30-somethings that are coming to our church.

Jason Allison (45:05)
Yeah.

Gary Rohrmayer (45:06)
coming to Christ and bringing their family into the church. There's fresh wind blowing and we need to be, in a sense, we need to be, just put it back in the coachable terms, we need to kind of hear God's voice and if we want to be a part of that, we need to help align our ministries and our lives.

Jason Allison (45:12)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (45:19)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (45:28)
Yeah.

Mm.

Gary Rohrmayer (45:35)
to be a part of God's great redemptive work that's happening in this world. And so ⁓ I just believe, you know, God is saving people, you know, and he uses us to do it. Well, will we be in alignment with him, right? ⁓ And be a part of that great redemptive role? Will he trust us with the converts, the disciples, the leaders that we can have an impact on?

Jason Allison (45:38)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

⁓ that's

great. That's great. Yeah. As CS Lewis might say it, know, as land is on the move, you know. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to ⁓ just going back and reading some of your previous books, and I'm sure you've got a few more in you. And so I look forward to those. But Gary, thank you for your time today for the just that I know the the energy and the effort.

Rob Paterson (46:12)
Hahaha

Gary Rohrmayer (46:12)
not

sure if going to

Thanks.

Jason Allison (46:32)
that you have put into coaching and just developing leaders really throughout your entire ministry. And we just appreciate that. And I, and I'll list in the show notes, but I know people can find you at garyrohrmayer.com. They can find you at accelerate.org. And that's ⁓ just in case people don't actually look at the show notes. It's a X E L E R a T E.org. And those are two places I know they can.

they can reach out and especially if they want to find a coach or they want to find out more. ⁓ That's definitely your specialty. Well, thank you so much and to our listeners. Thank you for listen to another episode. Again, we ask you to subscribe. That just helps us out and leave reviews. Share it with your friends. Share it with your enemies. Share it with anyone. We don't really care, ⁓ but we'd love to hear from you as well. So feel free to reach out and share maybe one of your.

Gary Rohrmayer (47:06)
with

Rob Paterson (47:20)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (47:26)
coaching stories, whether you were being coached or you were coaching ⁓ what that was like and how that really helped you in your ministry. So have a great week. We appreciate you and we'll see you soon.