Multigenerational Crisis in the Church with Bryan Chapell

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson welcome Bryan Chapell, a prominent figure in ministry, to discuss the multi-generational church crisis. The conversation explores the cultural shifts that have transformed the church's landscape, particularly the transition from a majority to a minority culture. Bryan shares insights on the differing perspectives between generations, the challenges of navigating these differences in ministry, and the importance of understanding and supporting young people in the church. The discussion also touches on the emotional responses to loss of influence and acceptance within the church community, and the evolving approaches to evangelism in today's context. In this conversation, Rob Paterson and Bryan Chapell explore the complexities of generational differences within the church, focusing on the challenges and opportunities presented by millennials and Gen Z. They discuss the impact of cultural shifts on gender identity, the importance of defining a clear church mission, and the need for unity among different generations. The conversation emphasizes the hope for church growth as parents seek guidance for their children in a rapidly changing world, and the necessity for church leaders to adapt their approaches while maintaining biblical fidelity.

Bryan Chapell, PhD, is a pastor and author known for presenting the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ around the world. He is president of Unlimited Grace Media, daily broadcasting grace-filled messages in major US cities and streaming coursework for the training of future preachers in 1,500 cities across 90+ nations at BryanChapell.com. He also leads the Administrative Committee of the Presbyterian Church in America, is Pastor Emeritus of the historic Grace Presbyterian Church in Peoria, Illinois, and is President Emeritus of Covenant Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Well, hello everyone. Welcome back to the church talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so excited that you would tune in once again for another episode, another week of talking church with pastors and leaders. you know, Rob, that's why we do this, right? To engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders all over the world. And I don't know about you, but I'm excited. It's been a good week.

Rob Paterson (00:21)
Yeah, yeah.

I'm excited too, although I do want our listeners to know ⁓ two things. One is there were no shots fired our last night in DC. ⁓ So I don't know if anyone was wagering on that or super concerned. ⁓ And the other thing is spending five days with you got me sick. Man, ever since I've been home, I've been sick. And so I don't know what that says about you.

Jason Allison (00:34)
Right.

Right now.

Well, I,

well, I'm just a very contagious person. That's, what it says. And, and maybe you got home and you're sick because I'm not around. Like maybe that's the, yeah. Okay. I'll tell myself that it helps me sleep at night. So yes, yes, yes, this is it. Well, this is our guest, the amazing, the wonderful, ⁓ the, the, old friend of ours that we met 10 minutes ago.

Rob Paterson (00:53)
That's maybe what it says.

You know what? Yeah, could be.

Bryan Chapell (01:05)
So this is a wonderful bromance guys, I really appreciate it,

Rob Paterson (01:08)
Yeah. ⁓

Jason Allison (01:17)
no, we're excited. We do have an amazing guest today. ⁓ I was told yesterday by another friend from, ⁓ another network that I work with that, ⁓ this guy is a pretty big deal. ⁓ and, so, yes, we have with us today, Brian chapel PhD, but is it okay if I just call you Brian or do I need to call you doc? Okay. Okay. you're in it. Okay. I can, I mean, I'll go with whatever. ⁓ but yeah, Brian's a pastor and an author.

Bryan Chapell (01:37)
Please, yes, yes. Either that or your eminence,

Jason Allison (01:46)
He's known for presenting the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ around the world. Currently, the president of Unlimited Grace Media, which is a daily broadcasting thing. And I mean, it's pretty big. Like, I'm looking at this going, you're streaming stuff all over the world. 1500 cities, 90 nations. That's amazing. And you lead the administrative committee of the Presbyterian Church in America. Is that...

⁓ What's the, how would our regular people know what that means?

Bryan Chapell (02:18)
So that's

Presbyterianism in the US is two major streams, PCUSA, which I think we would say in fairness, that's neo-Orthodox in view of And PCA is the other major stream. And we would say the Bible is God's inspired and inerrant word. that would PCA, we use the labels, where the conservative side and the PCUSA would be the not conservative.

Jason Allison (02:29)
Okay. ⁓

Yeah.

Progressive.

Bryan Chapell (02:48)
Yeah,

I do not, you know, don't want to lose bad labels, but just kind of like they would not view themselves as conservative as we.

Jason Allison (02:55)
Yes, no, that makes sense. And I totally understand that. ⁓ yeah, I noticed too, you are the pastor emeritus of the historic Grace Presbyterian Church in Peoria, Illinois. And I'm just like, man, how do you become a pastor emeritus? That's pretty phenomenal. ⁓ Yeah, tell me what that means real quick. I'm just curious.

Bryan Chapell (03:18)
So that was a church that we dearly loved. They dearly loved us. And at some point when I was asked to lead the denomination, ⁓ they let me go with a lot of tears on both our parts. And Emeritus says, we still love you.

Jason Allison (03:35)
Alright,

so you're still welcome to come back every so often and chat with them.

Bryan Chapell (03:41)
I was just there this last Sunday. Yeah.

Jason Allison (03:44)
wonderful,

wonderful. Well, we are glad that you're here and we are glad that we get to have a conversation with you. Just so everybody knows, you just, I don't know, just came out. it out? Yeah, the OK. OK. OK, it is called the multi generational church crisis. ⁓ Why we don't understand each other and how to unite in mission. ⁓ For those of you that watch this on YouTube, if I ever actually post it, ⁓

Rob Paterson (03:45)
That's great.

Bryan Chapell (03:56)
It's out. It's out. been out about a week. So you're still fresh.

Rob Paterson (04:00)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (04:13)
Then this is what it looks like. ⁓ I finished it up this morning. It is. I will warn people a lot of statistics and a lot of charts, but the way you weave them together and kind of show why it all matters. I really enjoyed that like that was. It was very helpful. I've read some books that are, you know, lots of charts, lots of stats that I walk away knowing a whole bunch of numbers, but having no idea what they mean.

⁓ and I felt like as I, as I worked through the book that I, I really understood why you were sharing what you're sharing and why it mattered. So, I mean, maybe the first question to ask is like, what prompted you to write this? What, why did you, why'd you do this?

Bryan Chapell (04:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. In a sense, Jason, you've already led me down the path by giving that history a little bit. So pastoring a church, love being there. They, they loved us, thought we would die there, die happy. And, ⁓ our denomination, which is about 2000 churches was actually in danger of exploding. So if you think of COVID, race issues, gender issues, sexuality issues, political issues, what

Rob Paterson (05:15)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (05:21)
what every denomination of the country is experiencing in terms of people upset with one another. We were there too. And so we were asked, you know, could we come and try to provide some healing? And a lot of my early years in this job was getting angry people in the same room. ⁓ usually they will not say in the same room what they will say about one another on the internet, honestly. And so ⁓ that led to saying, why are we so tense with each other?

Jason Allison (05:44)
Yes, yes.

Bryan Chapell (05:50)
And ⁓ how can we help? We actually believe the same Bible. We say we have a mission to the world. We believe in the same savior. Why are we so tense with each other? So he was having to do my job that said, all right, let's actually begin to help people. What I'm convinced is if godly people have the same information, they usually come to the same conclusion. And so I'm trying to say, let's deal with the same information. Why are you seeing the world so differently?

Jason Allison (06:13)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (06:14)
Mmm.

Bryan Chapell (06:20)
than people in another region, another ethnicity, another generation. It's not because you believe a different Bible or a different savior, right? So we are brothers and sisters in the Lord. Now let's talk about why we are seeing the world so differently and why we have such a different mission for the church. So it was actually trying to do my job, but more than that, help people see that those in the church are not the enemy, right? That we're on the same team.

Rob Paterson (06:46)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (06:46)
Right.

Bryan Chapell (06:49)
So much of what I was helping people to see is generationally why they may see the world differently. If you're 15 above, you were raised at a time that 90 % of those in the United States said they were Christian. Now there were good Christians and bad Christians, but everybody thought they were a Christian. But if you're in your forties and below, there's never a day in your life that you thought I'm a Christian in a majority Christian culture, right? You always thought I'm a minority in a secular culture.

Jason Allison (06:55)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (07:15)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (07:20)
And that means generationally, you may think we should be doing this as a church because we're the majority and we should be organizing everybody to vote to stop all these evils. Or you're younger and you say, we are a minority and our goal is actually to make the faith credible to neighbor and friend and the guy in the cubicle next to me who thinks I hate him. So how do we, how do we get those two generations to say you actually believe the same Bible?

Jason Allison (07:43)
Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (07:49)
You can be on the same page, but you must understand you come from very different contexts of ⁓ perception of what the goal of the church is.

Rob Paterson (07:57)
Hmm.

Hmm. That is, that is so good. You know, Brian, a lot of times when, when books come across my desk, you know, I get excited about some just because the topic seems very, you know, like pertinent and other times I'm like, well, I probably ought to peruse this, but, and when I saw this title, the multi-gener, the multi-generational church crisis, ⁓ why we don't understand each other and how do you unite in mission man?

It, this just really gripped me. Uh, cause I, mean, I lead a church that's very contemporary in terms of our ministry approach, but I, in my church, I'll have, you know, I, have four or five 90 something year olds who come and I can't tell you how many times those people sometimes with tears streaming down their cheeks will tell me how they love being a part of something they know is going to outlive them. Um, you know, they've really kind of bought in to mission over

preference or style. ⁓ And then other people, ⁓ even much younger sometimes are just like, yeah, this isn't for me. And it's all about preference and style. And I'm going to take my ball and go home. ⁓ So, you know, I'm sure there's got to be a million factors that contribute to this. But one of the ones you just mentioned, how has that dynamic of us, you know, it wasn't that long ago where we were the majority culture and now we're the minority culture. I mean, is that is that the big one?

Bryan Chapell (08:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's the one that affects us almost without our knowledge, right? So if I'm in my 40s and below, ⁓ and I'm thinking my greatest concern is for my children, right? That if I am in a public high school and I believe Jesus died for my sin, the Bible is true, homosexual marriage is wrong, sexual intimacy before marriage, excuse me. ⁓

Rob Paterson (09:30)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (09:55)
I got it too, Jason. Whatever you got, I got it too. If I'm believing all those things as a young Christian, I may be the only Christian I know in the high school who believes all those things. Because pornography has been normalized. Homosexual marriage has got universal approval, it seems, particularly among teachers and government officials.

Jason Allison (09:56)
Told you I'm contagious.

Bryan Chapell (10:24)
All of this is just saying the young people are the heroes of the church right now. If they are faithful to Christ, they are living out their faith in ways that are profoundly courageous, and we're not giving them adequate support. And my goal is to say, these are people we need to support and understand that they may not say the same thing you do about abortion or homosexuality or whatever, not because they think it's right, because they're trying to witness to people who've accepted it.

Jason Allison (10:29)
Yeah.

Right.

Bryan Chapell (10:54)
and you're still trying to get people to vote against it. And that's a different agenda, even though you all agree on the values.

Jason Allison (10:56)
You're right.

Rob Paterson (11:00)
Mm.

Jason Allison (11:00)
Yeah.

And I know I've, I see this play out. mean, I'm, I'm just a few years over 50. So I'm kind of in that weird, you know, transitional whatever. And, and Rob, I think you turned 50 in what three, four weeks. So, you know, we're right at that, that age.

Rob Paterson (11:14)
Couple weeks.

Bryan Chapell (11:16)
It's

obvious that Rob is the old guy.

Jason Allison (11:19)
But

he's not though. He's I've got him by like four years. But yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where it's like, I see, I see this and I've got kids who are 22 and 25, you know, so I see this amazing shift in the way they perceive just the world around them. It's just very different. And so trying to

And then trying to figure out how to shepherd people who are in that transition stage. That's why I see this idea of the, you know, the dynamics of church are changing quickly. And I just know too many people who are afraid to admit that. Like they're afraid that if they admit it, they're basically saying, nope, it's fine. Let's just let everything go and not that. No, no, no. It's okay to be in a society where the majority of people may accept some of those things that we find

you know, we would say biblically are not okay. That doesn't change anything about the church.

Bryan Chapell (12:18)
Right.

It changes how we think ministry and mission should be carried out. You know, I think I went to an ⁓ installation service of a new minister and you guys forgive me. You can tell I've got a cold. So forgive me for the frog in my throat. ⁓ I went to the installation of a new minister guy in his forties. Wonderful sermon. Here's the goals for this church. Here's the vision. I walked out with a friend of mine in his sixties.

Jason Allison (12:28)
Yes.

It's okay. No problem. No problem

Bryan Chapell (12:52)
And I said, wasn't that great? Don't you appreciate that, future of this church? And he looked at me and he said, that guy will not put on the uniform. Now I knew what he meant. He's not gonna preach against abortion. He's not gonna preach against gambling. He's not gonna preach against homosexuality. know, there's, he's got this list, not against pornography. Now the 40 something pastor's gonna think,

Jason Allison (13:01)
Mm.

Mm.

Bryan Chapell (13:20)
I'm going to be pro-life. I'm going to talk about adoption as an alternative to abortion. I'm going to be speaking about what Christian marriage can be rather than speaking against homosexuality. I'm going to talk about how we witness to people who are gay, even if we don't agree with them. I'm going to talk about how gambling is going to, especially sports gambling, is going to ruin the future of so many young males. I'm going to talk about these, but not, we're going to organize the voters to stop the casinos.

Jason Allison (13:48)
Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (13:48)
You know,

we're going to organize the voters to vote against the gay agenda. Yes, that uniform is not going to be put on, but the values are the same. It is including the value of I've got a culture to reach now that does not believe what I believe instead of just giving it a cent. So, know, Al Moller at Southern Baptist Seminary says Christians are the new moral outlaws, right? We used to think we had the moral high ground. I'm against.

Jason Allison (13:57)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:04)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (14:05)
Yeah.

Mm.

Bryan Chapell (14:15)
sex outside of marriage, I'm against the homosexual agenda, I'm against, I got the moral high ground. Now we are presumed to be the bigots, right? The intolerant, hateful people who don't approve of love. And so we've got to say our young people have to be understood in the context in which they are ministering and the church has to be understood in the context where it's ministering. Because the generations always look across the line and they say, if they're older, I'm for...

Rob Paterson (14:20)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (14:22)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:37)
Mm.

Bryan Chapell (14:43)
standing on the picket lines against abortion and you won't do it, so you're a coward. And the younger generation looks the other way and said, you do not understand the culture in which you're ministering, you're a hypocrite. So we get coward, hypocrite, coward, hypocrite, and the explosions go off and the church comes undone when their people are actually much closer in value to what they know.

Rob Paterson (14:54)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (15:03)
Well, yeah, and that's when in on page 109, you kind of take two charts from previous pages and cram them together. But what I see in that, talks about those who are 50 and older, right? It outlines their perception. It outlines their mission, which is generally to take control of the culture. And so that means you're bringing a halt to so you're defined by what you're against. But those who are under 50, you know, see the world from a very different perspective.

We are the minority, which is kind what you're talking about. They want to make credible our faith, but then, and the difference in the way they go about it is they want to help with. And so that exactly comes out so often in the way I see, especially in my work and traveling around, seeing different churches dealing with that there's that dividing line. No one wants to say that. Like that's what it is.

Bryan Chapell (15:43)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (15:49)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (16:00)
but it just comes up over and over and over. In your context, are you seeing that dividing line become almost what the culture wars were, you know, like, but within, yeah.

Bryan Chapell (16:11)
in the church,

right? Well, no question. I mean, that is big time in the church. And we have to say it, you you can't exactly be rigid about the generations, right? Because personalities in there as well, you all recognize, you're nodding, because you know, you've got young people who are much more conservative in their grandparents, all that. But some of that is because of what I think of as the echo effect. So if you're 15 above, your great loss is the

Jason Allison (16:23)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (16:27)
Mm-hmm.

Bryan Chapell (16:40)
the loss of influence, right? We can't get people to vote our way anymore. But if you're in your 40s and below, you got loss of acceptance. Nobody wants to be friends with a Christian, that hateful, awful, bigoted person, right? And if I even put it on my college application, I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna get accepted into the college I wanna go to. So an older generation has this loss of influence. A younger generation has loss of acceptance. And for both of them,

Rob Paterson (16:42)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (16:49)
Mm.

Bryan Chapell (17:10)
There's a certain anger in that. I get zealous about the hurt that I'm feeling. And sometimes that hurt means I gotta find whoever in the church put me in this position. And so what, the zeal of loss means I gotta point the finger at somebody and blame somebody for what this is about. And as a consequence of needing to blame somebody, I get angrier and angrier. I look at the church and I say, that person compromised.

Rob Paterson (17:21)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (17:37)
you know, what generation it was. Or I look at a younger generation and say, that person compromised because they won't hold to my ideals. And so you get even some younger people who cannot find anyone in the church who is conservative enough for them, right? Because they're feeling such hurt. And so you get what I think of as the punch in the nose evangelism, you know, how like, don't take it anymore. And you guys are nodding because you know that there's some younger pastors saying this now, right? They're saying, you know,

Rob Paterson (17:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (18:06)
enough with this winsome stuff, you know, that's compromise. Just punch them in the nose, you know, just give it right back to them. And well, that's standing for your position. It's not exactly standing for the heart of that person before the eternal throne of judgment, right? So we're kind of defending our rights rather than spreading the gospel.

Rob Paterson (18:23)
Mm, yeah.

Brian, just as you're saying that literally, have personal situations, I have more kind of network denominational situations all popping into my mind because I do think like, you know, we all agree the Bible is true and we all love Jesus, but man, sometimes we just come to these different conclusions and see the world in different ways that threaten our unity.

⁓ And so understanding this can be such a powerful thing. I mean, I really love, you know, ⁓ really the kind of thrust of this book. Let me ask, you know, as you were doing this research, there things about just generational differences that surprised you or were light bulb moments where you're like, wow, I just never, I never saw that before and this changes everything.

Bryan Chapell (19:22)
Yeah, and some of them, so let me tell the bad story first and then we'll get to the good story. So what are the bad stuff that surprises you? So if you look at young women under age 27 in our culture today, 30 % will say they're non-binary. Now that is an amazing stat. If you think of the churches trying to minister and 30 % of young women are saying, I'm uncertain about my gender identification or I've already decided I'm simply not.

going to be binary. You I'm not going to be a woman loves men, etc. as the only choice. And you say, what caused that? And more and more we're discovering and cause and effect is hard to prove. But you find so many young women exposed to pornography, young, and they say, if that's what sex is, I want nothing to do with that. Or they have a boyfriend or a husband who begins to treat them pornographically. And they say, I want nothing. I must be strange. I must be unusual. I must not be a real woman.

Rob Paterson (20:06)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (20:20)
And so we have that. Now, if you move to the Northeast, those numbers actually go higher. You get 40 % of young women saying, I am not binary. That is a very different situation than anybody over age 50 was raised with. Right. And that's what our high school kids face every day. Now you got most young men have normalized pornography. Most young men have normalized pornography. So they don't know how to relate to women and they are just

What should I say at loose ends about what am I to do? So now let's flip it and say, what's the hope in all this? All right, here's the hope. Because of parents now so concerned for their children whose questions about sexual identity, whose anxiety is so high, whose rates of depression are higher than ever. So many parents are concerned for their children. They are coming back to the church for the sake of their children. Post COVID, post COVID, the only generation

Rob Paterson (21:15)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (21:20)
to increase in the church was millennials. Builders and boomers decreased. Younger generations decreased. But anybody with school-aged children says, I am so concerned for my child and they're facing things I never did. Maybe the church can give some help. And millennials are coming back to the church in greater numbers than anybody else. There is hope there. What about the generation under the millennials? Gen Z, you all have read these reports. Think ages 13 to 30.

Jason Allison (21:23)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (21:41)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (21:42)
Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (21:50)
kind of that age group, so pre-children, right? And pre-children of their own. And so those, what are they saying? Young men are saying, I'm being told I'm the problem, ⁓ I'm a chauvinist, I'm lazy, I'm no good. And the church is telling me, God has called me to a purpose. God has called me to be the head of a family. God has called me to take the gospel. God has called me to be an example.

and the first generation we know of in all of human history that more men than women are in the church in Gen Z. These are huge opportunities for the church. If we won't say, now you got to agree with everything I do in the church's agenda or I won't take you in. No, no, no, this is the time. This is not the time to throw in the towel, right? This is the time. There are huge opportunities for the faith right now, but we have to understand the different world in which our young people are raised and our

Jason Allison (22:37)
Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (22:46)
People who are still supplying the resources, right, our older people, what their expectations were in their time and how we need to help them understand the times have changed.

Rob Paterson (22:56)
Mm.

Jason Allison (22:56)
Yeah,

you know, so I told you earlier, I'm leaving right after this and I'm heading a few hours north and doing a vision day with the church. One of the, one of the processes that we work through is, you know, identifying who their target audience is. And I hate even using that phrase, but the idea is, know, Hey, whatever we're doing, who do we think we will reach with what we're doing? And I always make it more like a bullseye and that might be at the center, but you've got concentric circles.

out of it that are, you know, if we're going to reach young families, right, who you just said are the ones looking to come back. Well, guess what? We need people who can actually, you know, staff the childcare places and children's ministry. We need and most young families that they're not they don't have the resources to financially give to the church to the extent that, you know, keeps things going. So we need to also think about those concentric circles beyond just the one we're trying to reach.

So my question in that is, ⁓ what are some, like, if you're thinking through this, what are some practical steps that, you know, our pastors that are listening, the leaders that listen to this podcast, like, what are some things they can do in a very practical way that might help, you know, bridge that gap?

Bryan Chapell (24:13)
Rob said almost the words that I would have said a little bit ago. I think the obligation on leaders is higher than ever before to declare what the mission of this local church is. Because if the leaders are not saying this is our mission, you will be torn apart by people's preferences. Well, I think this, I like that. say, well, listen, that's great, but this is our mission. This is what we're trying to accomplish. If you get buy-in of the leadership where they will lock arms with another and defend the mission,

Rob Paterson (24:30)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (24:43)
Then when people say, well, I don't like that song. I don't like that we're ministering those people. I don't like that those people have walked in the door that you say, listen, I may appreciate your concern, but this is our mission and we've all agreed to it. And otherwise people will just keep pressuring you for their preference as opposed to what you've agreed to as your mission. And, you know, Rob reminded me just the way he explained things a little bit ago. I, I get, preach in a lot of churches and one time.

I asked my father to come with me. My father was a primitive Baptist preacher. You don't know if you're in the south what primitive Baptist is, but you know, small churches, mostly rural churches. And he had a circuit of three one room churches that he ministered in into his eighties. And they were non-instrumental, know, no instruments, know, only singing voices, small churches. And I took my father to the church I was preaching that Sunday to one like Rob's.

Rob Paterson (25:28)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (25:41)
Right. So it was highly contemporary, all young families, all trailblazers in the parking lot. You know, it was, it was just kind of like that. And, and we went into that service. And before I preached, I'm telling you the band just rocked it out. I mean, they really rocked it out. And I watched my father not get mad, not get upset, just get lost. Just totally lost. mean, I don't even understand what's going on here. And I felt it only.

Jason Allison (26:03)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (26:09)
embarrassed, I felt a little ashamed that I had not anticipated what my dad was going to experience. This was so far outside his understanding and church experience. So at the end of the service, I was standing with him and one of his friends from decades past came from across the sanctuary and said to my father these words. said, Wayman, I hate the music too.

Jason Allison (26:14)
Hmm.

Hahaha

Bryan Chapell (26:38)
but look at the young people. And what that man said to my dad was, I've bought into the mission, right? I hate the music too, but I bought into the mission, right? And look what God is doing and I want to be a part of what God is doing. Now, I think if somebody said to my dad, you just have to like the music, know, so, you know, like it or leave that, you know, keep real left and as would people of his mindset.

Jason Allison (26:50)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:54)
Mm.

Bryan Chapell (27:06)
But when somebody said, look at the mission, then there was sufficient basis to unite. That was just about worship style. But what about sanctity of life? What about issues of pornography and sexual addiction and, you know, the opioid crisis has totally changed the way we talk about drug use in our churches. And, you know, you all are in different churches. My most recent church was a large church. mean, a half dozen people died because of opioids. And they were not

Jason Allison (27:09)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Bryan Chapell (27:36)
back alley drug users. These were lawyers and business people who got hooked on opioids because of a medical prescription that was not offered with integrity. So there is so much, we will just say, consider the context of your generation or your people or your part of the country, but look at the mission. And I think the most practical thing I can say is,

Rob Paterson (27:47)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (28:01)
look at the mission. Now I can tell you lots more things about what tends to work in terms of size church and music and all those things, but you know, Barna and Rainier and so they can all tell you that what I'm trying to do is get understanding of how important it is to unite in mission and then recognize the power of that.

Rob Paterson (28:13)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah, Brian, that's so good. You know, I think it might be helpful for our listeners. ⁓ You've used a couple terms, ⁓ mission, very common term. You also said uniform. Would you explain kind of what you mean by the mature uniform and the minority mission?

Bryan Chapell (28:34)
Yeah. Well, the mature uniform or the mature generation is what they expected every pastor to preach on. Right. So if you were in the era of the moral majority, you know, when Jason was only, you know, three years old, but nonetheless, you know, the era of the, of the moral majority, think Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and, more prominent than anybody, Jim Dobson, you know, focused on the family. You know, there was an understanding of what the church was supposed to be preaching about.

Jason Allison (28:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (29:03)
and what every preacher and we all knew, we all understood. I'm supposed to preach against abortion, against homosexuality, against pornography. Do remember Donald Wildman and the National Federation for Decency? know, against pornography, against gambling, against the tree huggers, anybody with a liberal, you know, label on them. And, and, you know, we had all this list of, if you're really doing your job, if you're being faithful, you will put on the uniform, which says I'm against these things. But.

that mature mission, a mature uniform, right, has given way to a different society in which all those things that were being preached against are now commonly accepted. And now you've got a younger generation of pastors and leaders who saying, what is my obligation to still be true to the scripture, but actually help people who are struggling with all those evils we did not stop. And so now the mission of a minority Christian

in a majority secular culture to say, how do I reach my neighbor? How do I talk about the sanctity of life? Not just join me on the picket line or aren't all those aborters terrible, but rather look how precious it is when we adopt children who would die if we did not help them. Look how important it is to take people out of the foster care system so they are not residual in poverty for the next three generations. Look how important it is to stop gambling.

Jason Allison (30:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

out.

Bryan Chapell (30:31)
not because we hate people who gamble, because we are losing, because seven to 10 % of all young men are addicted to sports gambling and they will drop out of college and we don't know what to do. They think they're ruining their lives in their first year of college and we can help them. If we believe our mission is not just that you're a terrible person, know what? You know you're struggling with something. Let me help you. Let's get you in this group that can help you. So when I say mission, Rob, I'm trying to say what is it that we can

Jason Allison (30:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (31:00)
according to the biblical values that we hold in common. How can we help in order to make the Gospel credible and meaningful to a culture that's actually longing to hear?

Jason Allison (31:11)
Yeah, yeah, I grew up in a in a was in Lexington, Kentucky, you know, so was towards the south. ⁓ But it was ⁓ originally I was baptized in a non instrumental Church of Christ, right? Exactly what you know, so I remember all that. But we ended up going to a larger church and the lead pastor there. He was there 3040 years, I think. But ⁓ I remember we created a, you know, across the city joining hands, standing against abortion thing.

Rob Paterson (31:11)
Hmm, so good.

Bryan Chapell (31:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Allison (31:40)
You know, ⁓ I remember he lobbied to, keep the blue laws that were in place where, know, couldn't sell alcohol, couldn't be open on Sundays, those type things. And, you know, I remember the day that the, basically, lost that battle, you know, at some point. And I remember he got up to speak, ⁓ right after the vote and everything had happened. And I was like, you know, seventh grade or sixth grade. didn't exactly understand all what was going on, but, know, he got a standing ovation because he had taken a stand.

Bryan Chapell (32:10)
Yes.

Jason Allison (32:10)
Right?

It wasn't about the mission of reaching people. It was about the mission of, you know, keeping our culture Christian. And, and, and I mean, this, this guy was an amazing guy. I love him to pieces. I he's since gone to be with Jesus, but ⁓ led an amazing church, but I it's so stark what you're describing. Like I can, I can put faces with everything that you're saying. And, and that shift has been really hard to navigate for a lot of people.

Rob Paterson (32:35)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (32:40)
just because to shift gears feels like you're selling out, right? If I try to move to a mission oriented, it comes across as though I'm giving in to the liberal agenda, you know, whatever the phrase, exactly. And I have been accused of that, like literally that is, and I'm like, no, no, I just want to actually witness to people that Jesus loves them and is not out to get them. ⁓

Rob Paterson (32:54)
You're woke, Jason.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (33:09)
But I also understand that balance of biblical fidelity in there. And so that's kind of where my question is going, is how do churches and how do leaders, how do pastors maintain that biblical fidelity while adapting the methods and the things that they're doing to reach the younger generations who don't have the cultural ⁓ bias almost toward a Christianity, toward that type thing? What do you suggest there?

Bryan Chapell (33:35)
Well, I'm gonna go after the heart first, right? Heart before behavior. And Jason, you already did it. When you talked about that pastor of your youth, you said, I love him. Now, I will tell you, if you cannot say that to people who differ on the uniform versus the mission, then all you're gonna do is create friction and animosity and shame, and that's not what we want. So if we can actually say, I love you, I want you to understand how the context has changed. I'm not criticizing what you did.

I'm not criticizing how you thought you should stand for biblical values in your time, in your context, but because I love you, I want you to know how the context has changed. Not because you're an old fogey who doesn't understand the world anymore, right? No, how can I love you by helping? Now, we need to say that to the people who want us to do all the contemporary things, right? We need to say, listen, if you're just gonna leave old people in the dust, if you're just gonna say the church has no foundation that's important to me, that's unbiblical too, right?

It's always rooted in this and reach, right? We are rooted in something. We stand on the shoulders of the faithful. If you ever become mono-generational, I will assure you your future, you die, right? So we need both generations. That's the biblical model. And actually not both, we need multiple generations. That's the biblical model. And so I think we try to have mutual respect. We do try to have mutual understanding, right? If godly people have the same facts, they typically will make the same decision.

Rob Paterson (34:43)
Mm-hmm.

Bryan Chapell (35:02)
So let's give them the facts. Here's how the world has changed. Now that can be tough. Go back to the church I most recently pastor. So large church in the Midwest. We do the things that Midwest churches do. know, we have at Christmas time, we have the Christmas extravaganza, you know, where we invite all the people in and they come in, you know, by the tens of thousands, you know, we have all these people coming in and until, you know, maybe the last six or seven years. And then, you know, we don't have 15,000, we only have 10,000.

And then we actually have a Christmas Eve service that's not full, you know, absolutely busting at the seams. And I can remember the little very dear Christian woman as I was leaving out the center aisle, she kind of stopped me, stood in front of me, she was small, so she took my elbows, you know, looked up at me and said, pastor, I can remember when the church was full on Christmas Eve. Now, let me, you pastors, you've already translated that, right? Pastor, what are you doing wrong?

that we are

Jason Allison (36:03)
Yep.

Bryan Chapell (36:04)
not full. And I want to say, do you recognize that in 25 years, the last 25 years, 40 million people have left the church? Do you understand in the last 25 years, we have gone from a small fraction of the US population that says I'm spiritual but not religious to now that is the largest religious group of the American population. Depending on how you count, 30 to 35 % of the population says, I'm spiritual, I believe in God.

Jason Allison (36:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (36:32)
But I want nothing to do with that mean, bigoted, intolerant, abusing children church, right? And that's the majority of people in our culture now. So those people are not saying, I really want to go to the Christmas Eve service. That's not what they're saying. And so I want that little dear woman who really had a heart for the Lord to love the church still, but to understand we have to reach people in a different way.

Jason Allison (36:41)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (37:00)
Mm.

Bryan Chapell (37:00)
And the Christmas

Eve extravaganza may not be the way for the generation that's coming.

Rob Paterson (37:06)
⁓ that's so good. Brian, you know, is as you know, in your role, if you had a call this afternoon from a pastor who was really struggling to bridge this generational gap, ⁓ or maybe God called you into, you know, ⁓ another local church, and you're like, and you were seeing these things like, you know, what would you say to do? Like, have you seen stories of success? What are some good steps that churches can take to help bridge this gap?

Bryan Chapell (37:33)
So let's, again, this is gonna be the real one. I not give you answers you want. Okay, so if we're just real, this is Jason's job now, tell people the hard truths, right? So what are the things? What are the churches that are growing? Churches that are growing in American culture are large churches. Why? Because they got all the resources, right? They're the full bank, know, full banking resource, they can do everything. What are other churches that are growing? Actually small churches where you have family community without conflict.

because people are looking for what we sometimes call perish mindset, right? I want a place where my kids are safe and people love each other and care for it. So small churches actually have a place in today's culture. What does the worship people go to? They will flee whatever church worship style hurt them, right? So if it's very traditional, they'll go contemporary. If it was very contemporary and they got hurt in that church, they will go historic. But most people who are going to the church are looking for blended.

Jason Allison (38:03)
Hmm.

Bryan Chapell (38:32)
Right? So they want something historic that's not moving. I want something, you know, I want hymns that my grandparents sang, but I also want my children to be able to engage. So if you look at the churches that are growing, most of them, there are all kinds of exceptions, are not simply historic. If they're historic worship, classical worship, those are usually large churches that can afford the orchestra. Right? That's not most of us. Contemporary churches are also large.

Jason Allison (38:56)
Mm-hmm.

Bryan Chapell (39:01)
Right? And they can grow because you can do contemporary without much expense and you can do it very well without much expense. But most churches, if you think about mid to small, which are the majority churches in this country, right? They, they have the opportunity to minister with blended worship that is speaking to those millennials, right? I want something that has something solid that, that, connects me to the historic church, but I want my children to be able to worship and to grow here with somebody that respects them.

Right? So I need both. So blended worship, understanding the different cultures in which we minister, understanding different generational perspectives, uniting mission, and finally, uniting in hope. You must understand, you all know this, Christianity is having a moment in this culture. I mean, look at the revivals that are happening on major campuses across the country. I mean, you've seen that. Ohio, Indiana, Alabama.

Rob Paterson (39:31)
Mm-hmm.

Bryan Chapell (39:58)
Auburn, know, these these multi now we have all kinds of questions about you know, what's the marketing behind that and how is that but that is something exceptional that is going on that that is not and by the way, it's not just happening in the US. It's happening in Europe. It's happening in Africa. We the Holy Spirit is alive and well and and we need to say this is the wrong time to throw in the towel. We have parents looking for hope. We have children looking for answers to anxiety.

Jason Allison (40:07)
Yeah.

Bryan Chapell (40:27)
They've looked in social media long enough to know it only makes them more lonely, and they are looking for something, and we have the Savior to offer them. It is a good time to be ministering in the church. And we just need to say, how do we unite by understanding where our differences may lie, but what our mission together is?

Jason Allison (40:46)
Wow. I mean, that's, I feel like we don't need to add anything to that. You know, I mean, that that's that it's, it is ⁓ an amazing encouragement and, and, a vision that we can grab onto there, you know, the, the devil's in the details, right? Like that when you actually start doing it, you will get pushed back. You will get, you will hit some friction, but you know, I love how you just keep going back to, but the mission is what matters. And yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:13)
you

Bryan Chapell (41:13)
The leaders have to agree.

start with that discipleship model, right? The leaders, I have to have the leaders agreeing on the mission or we will be torn apart by preference.

Jason Allison (41:21)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Purpose over preference. That's, you know, the that's my mantra half the time with churches that I'm working with is, know, it's it is about your purpose. But if you're not clear on your purpose, if you're not clear on your mission, then preferences will be the deciding factor. And whoever has the loudest voice or the biggest pocketbook is going to get to pick. And that's just reality. And so you got to be clear on that mission. And I know.

You know, just as a word of encouragement to pastors and leaders, if that is something you're going, wow, I am not clear. Please reach out to us. mean, like we're here to help. We're here to support. This is what we do is to help clarify. We're not going to give you the mission because God speaks to you in your local context and the way you're going to do it. That's that's vital. But, you know, if you need some help clarifying that, please reach out. That's what we love doing that and helping pastors and leaders in that.

Brian, man, this has been a great conversation and like, I could probably have another two hours of conversation with you. Cause I just, and I've got like 15 other things that you wrote about that I want to, you know, I wanted to touch on, but you know, our time is running short here. ⁓ thank you just for taking the time to write this, ⁓ and to, you distilled a lot of stats and stuff into a manageable thing. I actually was having a conversation with Ed Stetzer last week.

⁓ and, and it's just so much that comes out. It's hard to actually, it's like a, a fire hose, you know, coming at you. And, and sometimes you just got to slow down and say, wait a minute, let's, let's, let's distill this down to what really matters. And that's exactly what you've done. And I just really appreciate that. So, and thanks for taking the time to have a conversation with us today.

Bryan Chapell (43:04)
Hey, thank you guys for not only this conversation, but what you do for the larger church. I mean, you're really trying to minister to pastors. It's my heart and your heart, and I appreciate being in the harness with you for that purpose.

Jason Allison (43:16)
Yeah. Well, to our listeners, we appreciate you and please reach out with questions or comments. And if you'd like to be connected with Brian ⁓ in any way, obviously you can get the book. I'll have notes, links in the show notes, ⁓ but please do that. And we just, man, it's been a great couple of weeks. It's getting crazy. ⁓ And so summer is upon us and sometimes that means everything gets crazy. And sometimes it means you actually slow down for a little bit. I don't know where you're at, but

I pray that the next few weeks bring you some refreshment and take a minute and share and subscribe to the podcast. That would help us out and just have an amazing week. Thanks for listening.