The Big DUH!

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss the challenges of busy pastoral lives, the importance of legacy, and the need for community in processing life's transitions. They explore the cultural context of the Bible, the assumptions made in ministry, and the blurred lines between facts and feelings in church discussions. The conversation emphasizes the necessity of discernment and understanding in both personal and communal faith journeys.

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Busy Lives as Pastors
03:46 Reflections on Legacy and Life's Impact
08:16 The Importance of Processing Life with Others
11:37 The Weight of Moral Failings in Ministry
13:49 Revisiting Assumptions in Ministry
16:52 Understanding the Bible as a Cross-Cultural Experience
20:59 Understanding Biblical Texts and Translations
24:01 Cultural Context in Biblical Interpretation
27:09 America's Role in Biblical Understanding
30:50 Navigating Feelings and Facts in Faith
35:15 Community and Accountability in Faith Practices
41:51 New Chapter

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the church talk podcast with Rob and Jason. I'm really excited just to hang out with you for a few minutes, Rob. It's been a busy week for both of us and carving out a few minutes to, to record this week has proved, difficult and yet it's difficult because we were doing a lot of things that is just what pastors do. Right. ⁓ so yeah, so man, it's good to see you. How you doing?

Rob Paterson (00:29)
⁓ I feel the last few days, like you just said, I mean, and I know in your world too, you know, I've just been full packed full, ⁓ of lots of things and of lots of really good things. ⁓ but after three super busy days and I still have, you know, things today, things tomorrow, things the next day, whatever. ⁓ but man, it did, you know, when you work hard and get a lot of things done, it does kind of create like a, ⁓

and ⁓ you start to see light at the end of the tunnel hopefully and so I'm a little bit feeling like that right now and a little bit hopeful because of it.

Jason Allison (00:58)
Yeah.

Yes, I totally agree. ⁓ yeah, I hit a point yesterday where I don't know. was like two 30. I'd been in the office since like seven that morning and my brain just said, you're done. It's just like, Nope, no more. I know you think you have more things that you have to create or generate or whatever, but not today. You're done. So I, yep. So I didn't. Yeah. But

Rob Paterson (01:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's And

you know, I think as we get older, I was actually telling a younger pastor about this more recently because they were like, yeah, I'm like, I stepped as late as I needed to get things done. And I'm like, you know, I was totally you and I was actually you for decades. And ⁓ one of the things I would discover is that in busy seasons, because I would stay up, it would totally jack up my sleep and my sleep schedule. And then for

you know, sometimes days or even weeks, I would, you know, it feel impossible to fall asleep and then I'd be exhausted in the morning. ⁓ and I said, now if my body and mind are saying I'm tired and I need to rest, instead I go to bed and I just get up as early as I need to, finish it the next day. and it, and it helps me to be tired that evening when it's bedtime as opposed to like staying up forever. So, you know, just

such a simple thing, but instead of being stressed in and, you know, staying up endlessly in those strange and unique moments, I don't want to mess my sleep up anymore. And I'm like, I'll get up early, even though I don't love the super early.

Jason Allison (02:36)
⁓ you're such a morning glory. Well, I did hear a guy, it was at the global leadership summit, but this was like 20 years ago. ⁓ pastor in Hawaii. should remember his name. I can't it's fine. ⁓ do you, yeah, it's coming to you too. I can see, but the, ⁓ that what it's the idea is he talked about sleep and everything and resting, you know, and he said,

Rob Paterson (02:38)
Thank

Yeah.

Jason Allison (03:04)
Basically his idea is to sleep in on the front end instead of the back end. So instead of sleeping until 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, go to bed three hours earlier and then get up at the same time. helps with your circadian rhythms. It helps with, you know, all that stuff. And I, I, I've always found that good. That's it was Wayne Cordero. That's it. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, that was an interesting little factoid. See the things that

Rob Paterson (03:22)
Yeah. Yeah. So was it Wayne Cordero or was it Ralph Moore? Okay. Cool.

Jason Allison (03:33)
you learn just by tuning in to the Church Talk podcast.

Rob Paterson (03:36)
⁓ Nice. yeah, so hey, and we're we're already kind of, you know, in the middle of this, but in kind of our first little block of time here, we wanted to talk about, you know, what we're learning right now. ⁓ And, you know, is we were talking about that beforehand. Again, just going back to my week, there's there's some things that kind of have been pressing into me. And I feel like I've been in this season of thinking about and learning these things. But really,

Jason Allison (03:39)
Life lessons.

Rob Paterson (04:06)
in this last week, I've been thinking a lot more about legacy and, and there's a few things happening. So last week, on Sunday afternoon, ⁓ we actually went to the graduation here locally and, my oldest son's girlfriend was graduating and, ⁓ so his, ⁓ her parents and, and she's one of six, ⁓ and all of our other brothers and sisters are married.

There's four grandkids now and there's two grandkids on the way. So this is a fairly large family that's all sitting there and we know them for a number of reasons. And I just remember just kind of observing that family and smiling to myself. And I said to my friend Bill, who actually ⁓ years ago was on the podcast and talked about one of his sons getting in a car accident and really having to trust God in that season. And it was kind of a powerful thing.

Jason Allison (04:57)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:01)
But I just looked at Bill and kind of smiled and I said, man, it's cool to see this legacy, you know, just of your family here. And he he smiled. So so I thought of that. As you know, there's a gentleman in my church. I have a unique, unique, very unique setting in that we have a very contemporary environment and lots and lots and lots of young families. But I also have a number of 90 something year olds.

And one of our 90 year olds has just had a lot of, you know, recent health concerns. ⁓ And ⁓ they, he was going in and out of hospital here, especially in the last couple of weeks and kept going septic, which obviously is not a great thing. ⁓ And they, they discovered it was a bile duct that was blocked and just not working. It was just kind of continuing to create this reality in his body. And, and he didn't want, you know, he didn't want to try to survive a surgery.

Jason Allison (05:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:59)
at 90 something years old. ⁓ And so they just decided to keep him comfortable. Actually, yesterday morning, he passed away. We got to see him numerous times. Bethany and I actually were there just a couple days ago, and they brought his dog in to surprise him and just to see him like smile and ⁓ scout, know. And so, you know, seeing a guy who's lived for nine decades, whose family loves him so much that they were at the hospital and

Jason Allison (06:07)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (06:29)
at the care places all the time. Uh, and last week when it kind of turned and got a little dire, you know, I mean, I showed up at the hospital and there was probably 30 family members in the little waiting room in the ICU, you know, so that made me think of legacy. And then this will air the day after I believe, but, uh, this coming Sunday is my 50th birthday. Right? So, so, you know, I see all those external things that speak to me.

Jason Allison (06:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah?

Rob Paterson (06:56)
but as I turn 50 and I always love that people like think of that as the hump and you're over the hill. Cause it's like, well, most people live to like whatever 77. So middle age is actually more like 30, whatever, not, not 50. And so the, the likelihood, not that I couldn't like live to 101 or something like that. I don't know that I want to live to that age, but, ⁓ you know, like I think all the time, not in a morbid way, but man, there's more life behind me.

Jason Allison (07:08)
Yeah.

Yep.

Rob Paterson (07:25)
than there is in front

of me. And so it just makes you think, you know, how am I living? What do I want to do? You know, what kind of legacy is my life going to leave for my kids and for others who knew me?

Jason Allison (07:37)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I that's yes. I agree. and that's one of those things where it's like, wow, what, ⁓ what do you do with that? You know, like as a pastor, that's, that's kind of heavy at times. ⁓ but in the same breath, you, you, you say that, but really and truly, you know, my best life is still to come in, in an ultimate sense, you know, like, I mean, my days on earth,

As I am right now is one thing, but you know, in the new creation in the resurrection life, ⁓ you know, there is more to come. And it's kind of the old story of sitting around grandma's, you know, ⁓ the, big table with all the, and grandma's made this feast and whatever, and everybody's cleaning up cause they're done with the main courses and stuff. And, and, you start to put your fork into the plate that you're going to take away. And one of the ants goes, no, no, no, no, don't, don't, don't put your fork away.

you know, hold onto your fork because the best is yet to come. And that's when desserts come in, you know, so it's just stuff like that. It makes you realize, wow, there's, there's stuff going on in life that matters now and for eternity. And I don't live for now. I live for eternity. ⁓ kind of the dot versus the line, ⁓ metaphor, but yeah, no, those are good things that it's been, it's been interesting for me as, as your friend, like being, you know, I don't get to see you every day, but we text quite a bit.

Rob Paterson (08:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (09:03)
a lot of inappropriate things, but a lot of appropriate things, ⁓ that, know, or just like you were sharing.

Rob Paterson (09:10)
Everyone of my friends

who may be listening to this right now is like nodding like, yeah, that's, that's wrong.

Jason Allison (09:14)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's Rob.

Yeah. ⁓ but you know, you, texted me about interacting with this, this gentleman in a picture and so forth and you know, like just seeing it happen and, and knowing how you're processing it, is important. And I think, mean, for me, what am I learning right now, even as you're talking about what you're learning is I am learning how much I need people in my life that I can process life with.

Like, and it's not necessarily church people like in my church, cause some of what I'm processing has kind of a bigger picture stuff that it would take me a long time to catch them up, you know, for them to, but when I can sit down and process things like, especially transitions, cause I'm going through a ton of transitions in my professional life and being able to just not necessarily resolve anything. It's not like I need.

you know, you to fix something. It's more of a, I just got to process this for a minute and make sure I'm hearing things. I think pastors and leaders of any area need that. They need those people in their life. You know, sometimes it's a therapist, but sometimes it's just a couple of good friends who can, who can look at you and say, you are full of crap. That is the dumbest thing you've ever said in your life. And, know, and you're like, ⁓ yeah, I guess it was, or they're the kind that say, wow, I see what you're saying. I'm

I'm just going to walk with you and sit in the silence for a minute. ⁓

Rob Paterson (10:43)
And I think one of the reasons

we resist that is probably two things primarily, right? One is we learn early on where we do share something meaningful, real, serious, because we need input, counsel, help. And, you know, we get our wrists smacked. you're, you're a pastor. You're a, you know, person of God. You shouldn't be struggling with that. Certainly shouldn't be telling anyone. And we learn, you know, to hide it. ⁓

Jason Allison (10:54)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:13)
And another one, and sometimes this, if somebody is too overtly this, just frustrates me when I'm around other pastors and they always feel like they need to give an answer to everything in the moment. And, you know, and a lot of times when I hear a question, I'm like, that's a tricky question. I don't know how I would answer that. And then I hear the pastor give an answer and it's so full of nothing that I'm like, man, you would have much better serve.

that person and really everybody, if you had said, you know, I don't know, like, me, give me some time and in the next week, let's connect and, I'll have, you know, done some thought prayer study, whatever, and brought it like a legitimate thoughtful answer back to you. ⁓ but again, if, I know everything, you know, why do I need to talk to someone else?

Jason Allison (11:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well,

and if I need to be perceived as knowing everything, ⁓ yeah, it's, the old saying, a wise man once said nothing.

Rob Paterson (12:13)
Hmm, that's good. Jason, just to maybe put a little cap on on this legacy thing, you know, one of the things that has always like felt like a knife in the gut to me, which is maybe an interesting way to say this, just because, you know, it wasn't me directly. But when I see pastors and ministry people, we see this nationally all the time. But when when there are people that I know who just lived well and had significant ministry, who have any kind of moral failings, especially

Jason Allison (12:15)
And, you know.

Rob Paterson (12:43)
you know, like in their 60s or 70s or whatever. And I'm like, you were you were there, you know, like you. think of this one pastor who actually when I was planting a church, he invited all the church planters to his. mean, that three thousand plus member church and he paid for the whole day and he just wanted to pour into us. He taught us ministry lessons. He got us a nice lunch. He took us out to a really nice place for dinner. And it was just this thing to say, hey,

Jason Allison (12:50)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (13:11)
whatever God has blessed me with, just want to, you know, and it was like, and we all were just, you know, hungry to learn from him and from his life and ministry. And then he had this like moral failing really. ⁓ I think they are even had a successor in place. So just a year or two before, like he was going to like walk off into the sunset, spend time with his grandkids and just like cheer on younger pastors. And, and I thought, man, how

sad is it to do all this sort of decades of building and then just to like give it away for some small silly reason. And then I think of, you know, our lead team a couple of weeks ago and, ⁓ you know, like these days in my life, when we can create spaces that help encourage breathe life into, ⁓ other pastors, ⁓ that's kind of the thing that, you know, I get fired up on. And so, you know, in my ministry, I don't, I don't,

Jason Allison (14:02)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (14:09)
want or need it to be so much about me or all about me. If other people can shine, if other people can succeed, if other people could be, you know, helped and applauded, it's kind of the old saying, right? Like, man, if my fruit can grow in other people's trees, how much how much more ministry and kingdom impact can we mold?

Jason Allison (14:29)
Right. Right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, so that's what you and I are kind of learning a little bit when we think of legacy, when we think of, you know, where we're going, what's going on. But I wanted to talk today with you about I heard someone else kind of say something that we used to say it all the time growing up. You know, is it well, duh. Right. You know, it's kind of that. And I was thinking about that and I was thinking, you know, there what is like the big duh?

that as Christian leaders, as pastors, that maybe there's some things that we assume and we just say, yeah, everybody knows that, duh. And yet ⁓ maybe we need to step back and say, okay, maybe there are a few things that we probably need to make sure we talk about again, make sure we.

keep this in front of our people. ⁓ I've heard ⁓ people say like, vision leaks, right? And so you gotta keep that vision casting and that's great. And I've got a whole thought on the idol of leadership in the church that we'll talk about another day. But ⁓ the, that's right, that's right. But there are certain things that if we're not careful, we won't notice that the people who are in our church is under our care.

Rob Paterson (15:42)
Yeah, it's good and it's bad, baby.

Jason Allison (15:55)
They're no longer familiar with these assumptions that we make. And that ends up making, you know, an ignorant or at least uninformed congregation. And I think it makes out of touch pastors because we don't realize what's actually going on. And so, you know, ultimately the church becomes irrelevant or worse. It becomes a bad witness in the community of what God's grace is really like.

Rob Paterson (16:21)
And I don't think, you you have to have come to ministry in any one specific way to have this reality be true. You know, so whether you, you know, ⁓ you know, were educated for, you know, a decade plus, you know, and did have all these degrees and advanced degrees and those kinds of things. ⁓ or, know, whether you kind of came to ministry in more of a non-traditional route or whether, you know, I mean, you and I have been a part of some ordination councils where people were just like,

in the local church, serving at a high level, even working for decades. And they just like develop those skills over time. It doesn't matter what your sort of training looks like. You know, after you've learned things and know things, we just start to assume, especially over years and decades, that our knowledge base is everyone else's knowledge base. And so we stop sharing those things because we're like, I don't want to be redundant or I don't want to be that rudimentary. ⁓

Jason Allison (16:55)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

Rob Paterson (17:18)
And a lot of people desperately need to know those things because they don't yet know them.

Jason Allison (17:25)
Right. Yes, exactly. And that's, yeah, we forget that we are our knowledge base is built on a foundation of years of study and knowledge and wisdom that we've gleaned and learned that another person doesn't necessarily have that experience. And so we start with some assumptions that ultimately can burn us because we forget not everybody thinks like us.

You know, not not everybody has the same experiences that we did. So I thought today we just take a couple. You know, we've got a list, but we'll we'll hit a couple ⁓ however many we have time for of some of these like no duh statements that maybe we need to revisit ⁓ so that our people are are on the same page as us when it comes to how we're, you know, operating and so forth. So here's the first one I thought of ⁓ that I think.

Rob Paterson (17:51)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (18:18)
We need to revisit at times. that's that reading the Bible is a cross-cultural experience. And basically what I mean is, the Bible was not written in our modern times. Yes, we have modern English translations, right? And sometimes that's why it makes this hard for people who haven't done seminary and all that stuff to remember this Bible did not come to existence in English.

You know, in the 1950s, right? mean, this, this document is ancient. I know the, ⁓ the, the, the Bible project guys are just when we're recording this, they just finished a series on the making of the Bible, right? You know how the Bible came to be. And it's a very messy. It is not at all neat and clean. There wasn't like a council of Jewish people who came together and said, this is the, what we're going to call, you know, the Torah or the, we call the old Testament and boom, done.

Rob Paterson (19:15)
Wait a minute,

do mean like the six winged kind of cherubim didn't like fly down from the throne room of heaven and just sort of give scrolls and such?

Jason Allison (19:24)
That would be amazing. ⁓ but no, that's not at all. And, and I know we think, well, duh, but honestly, how many of your people really know that the Bible didn't come to us in a nice, neat little package and everything was all set. mean, they have even in the Jewish old Testament, there are so many places where, ⁓ in the Dead Sea Scrolls, they have found examples of the book of Jeremiah and there are two different forms of it.

And, and both of those forms are found side by side. One is probably more connected to the Septuagint, the Greek translation, others are more to the Masoretic texts, the original, some of the Hebrew writings that that happens simultaneously. And we just forget it's messy. It's not this nice, neat little thing that was developed for, uh, you know, for us English speaking people, you know, in the second millennium, or I guess, are we in the third millennium? See one? Yeah, we'd be in the third millennium.

Anyway, it's a side thing that I'll totally think about for a long time now.

Rob Paterson (20:24)
I feel like

you need to start like an end times podcast now.

Jason Allison (20:28)
The third millennium? Yeah.

Rob Paterson (20:30)
Yeah, Jason

in the third millennium with Star Wars. Yeah.

Jason Allison (20:33)
Can I get a Millennium Falcon? Yeah, I need

a Millennium Falcon to Falcon to, you yes. That's like I was talking to a guy yesterday about playing the lottery. It's long story, but he said he had a whole plan and he said, but he saw this one picture on Facebook or something and said, you know, if I ever win the lottery, I'm not going to tell anyone, but there will be signs. And then there's this picture of a guy and in front of his house is parked a Millennium Falcon Falcon. It's like, okay.

Rob Paterson (20:37)
flying kind of behind you.

That is so

good.

Jason Allison (21:03)
That'd

be a little sign that that would be there. So yeah, I don't know. mean, I just think we forget to tell people this book, this Bible, one, it's compilation. One, it is very messy. ⁓ It's not nice. Neat. I guess you have a nice leather bonded, you know, Rob, you have some nice Bibles, right? That you like you appreciate that. But that's not how it was originally done. And also in that it's a cross cultural experience because it was written.

thousands of years ago in the Middle East. It's not even American. Can you believe that? How can it be godly if it isn't American?

Rob Paterson (21:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

you're now you're getting dangerously close to some line. I just, I sent it in the, in the force, you know, Jason is just, so as you're talking about this, man, there's just all kinds of things popping in, to my mind. ⁓ a couple of quick stories. So like this one's just a general thing. Cause every, if you've been in ministry any length of time, you know, you, as a ministry person has, I've had someone like point at a Bible or their phone, you know, with the Bible app or whatever. And they've said,

Jason Allison (21:44)
Hahaha

Yes.

Rob Paterson (22:10)
Well, the Bible says it right there in black and white. Like, there's absolutely no work that needs to be done. There's no consideration for, the Bible was written to a specific group of people at a specific time in history for specific reason. And if we don't at least have some rudimentary understanding of those things, now listen, is it a living text like the Bible even says about itself?

Can God use this to say other things to other people at different times in history? Absolutely. But if, you know, as our primary mode, you know, we've got to come to the text with some skill ⁓ and some ability. I mean, there's places, even as you read your Bible, you know, you will, you will, if there's like sometimes a little footnote and you go down and you'd be like, well, here's the, here's another piece that could be in some translations, put it in, but it's not in.

the best manuscripts. So we didn't include it, but we added it as a footnote. Or you could say, well, you know, like sometimes the footnote reads, well, you know, some of the original manuscripts say this and some say this. So we're giving you both, you know, I mean, even the, even the sort of the, the, the foundational texts that the scriptures came to us from don't completely, you know, agree. And so yes, it's messy. And I still remember one of my professors,

Jason Allison (23:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Rob Paterson (23:37)
telling a story about preaching at a church camp in a summertime. And he had this woman beeline for him after he had preached the sermon. And because she was like a King James only person and she wanted that's not, you know, if it was good enough for Paul and Timothy, it's good enough for me because that's of course what they had. What? And to set this up, she's like, what translation did you preach from? Because I know it was not the King James version. Well, he was.

He was the super smart guy. He was preaching from his Greek New Testament. He's like, I was from the original language, like right out of my Greek New Testament. ⁓ Right. ⁓ So, you know, maybe and I as a high school student, I actually had my pastor, you know, teach me how to use some some basic tools, you know, how to use concordances and sort of word study tools and lexicons and all this kind of stuff. ⁓

Jason Allison (24:10)
Of he was.

You

Right.

Rob Paterson (24:34)
So if I can learn that, you know, as a 16, 17 year old kid, ⁓ we can surely help our people, you know, utilize these tools. Nowadays, there's some pretty cool software out there that, you know, you can do some clicks and get a lot of great information, so.

Jason Allison (24:48)
yeah.

Yeah. The

Blue Letter Bible is an app. It's free and it gives you the Greek and it gives you word studies and it, you know, and it's free. Like, you don't even, it's an app on your phone. It's yeah, it's, easy. And I think what you're, what you're getting at too is cause I mean, we're preaching to the choir. know on some levels of this, cause most of the people listening like, well, yeah, we know that, but here's the thing. Your people don't always know that your people don't come in with that assumption or that knowledge.

And so when you start talking, you have to remember their assumption is this was a golden tablet, you know, that came down and, was perfect. It was already completely set and done. And all we have to do now is read it. Right. Cause there it is in black and white, or if Jesus said it, cause Jesus talked in red and red and white. And, and then that way I can, you know, I can know this is exactly what he meant. And we forget it was written in a middle Eastern culture, which is way different than the culture I grew up in. ⁓

Rob Paterson (25:27)
Yeah, yeah,

Jason Allison (25:50)
You know, and so I grew up in a, what a, a, ⁓ Midwestern redneck culture. ⁓ and so, you know, like we just read things differently. We see, we hear things differently. And so we just have to acknowledge that. ⁓ and it's kind of the old saying, right? The Bible was written for us, but not to us. And are you teaching your people that concept so that when they come to you with pointing at that one verse,

You know, you can you can help them understand. Wait, let's look at the context. Let's look at what's going on, because maybe there's more here to it than just the surface reading.

Rob Paterson (26:28)
Yeah. And I want to say something here that's going to, again, to many of our listeners sound like a, duh, kind of thing. Right. But, ⁓ one of the things, simple, basic principle that I remember talking about in a hermeneutics class and seminary was, you know, you always need to consider the genre of, of the literature. Right. And so like, if, if this is like a series of poems, you don't read a poem the same way you read like,

history book ⁓ or the New Testament. You know, the New Testament has a lot of letters in it. And so, you know, if I, and again, we like, well, the Bible says, you know, we do, we do that silly little thing. And again, not that that's inappropriate in all contexts, but, ⁓ you know, if Paul was writing a letter to a church for a reason, ⁓ and we have no idea.

like what that church was like or the reason for Paul writing it. And we just want to pull a sentence out and use this as this is just truth for all people at all times universally. You know, if you wrote a private well, this wasn't a private letter, but if you wrote a letter to someone, you know, and somebody 2000 years later took that letter and tried to just sort of like make these broad sweeping kind of universal truth kind of statements.

without any level of understanding of the people in the situation, ⁓ it would not land, it would not connect, it would not make sense. So why do we think the Bible's different? Like, why do we think that we don't need to do any of that work? And again, for a lot of people, you're like, yeah, we do need to do that, but your people probably largely don't think that.

Jason Allison (27:54)
Mm-hmm.

No.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just thinking about sports teams and if somebody even 200 years from now read articles or stuff about sports teams and you know how, you know, the, the, the black Mamba killed the Clippers and the, you know, like what kind of sports were they playing? You know, it's yeah. And no, it was, but that's just cause you know, the idioms and the phrases that we use it.

Rob Paterson (28:36)
Barbarians!

Jason Allison (28:43)
It, don't always translate. If you don't have context, you don't understand what's going on. So that's just kind of my, my no duh. Number one is yes. I know every pastor that is listening, every leader that is listening to this is like, well duh. Yeah. But have you stopped long enough to think about how your people perceive things? ⁓ because I think that leads into the second no duh that I have is that America is more like Rome than Israel. When you are looking at things from a

biblical perspective. And I may step on toes with this, but honestly, I don't care. know, America is not God's chosen country. And so when we read scripture and we replace America, you know, or we replace Israel with America when we're reading, even if it's just the mindset we bring, right, to the text, the lens through which we're reading it, we're making a massive mistake. But I see people do this all the time.

online and articles and things. And I just think we've got to start making sure our people realize that America is not God's chosen country when we read scripture. Because I think we bring that to the text more often than we realize.

Rob Paterson (30:01)
Yeah, yeah, this is this is kind of reminding me Jason of ⁓ a recent conversation with ⁓ our brother who wrote that great book about the sort of the coming generational divide, you know why we hate each other and what we can do about it in this multi-generational, you know, church crisis and and just that conversation about people over 50 and people under 50 and I have thought about that and I've even used that construct now in the last ⁓ week or two.

maybe a dozen times in different settings. Because I think for you and I, and you know, to be kind of right at that 50, you know, divide, it gives us a little bit of understanding and context, both directions. I think, you know, and again, I think if you're 55, 60, you know, plus years old, you're likely gonna think back to when you were a kid and, and how we could like,

vote anything we wanted into law. so in our country was, you know, had a majority kind of Christian at least mindset. Yeah, but now if you're 20, 30, 40, you know, you're like, that's not the world I grew up in. And, you know, for me to be serious about my faith and even to agree with some perspectives and statements and, you know, things, ideologies that, you know, maybe my

Jason Allison (31:06)
Right, ethic.

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (31:27)
60 year old parents held true as part of their faith. I'm seen as a bigot. I'm see. So like they like that conversation, you know, like they are the heroes of the faith who are really, you know, living way more as missionaries as opposed to the dominant culture and trying to be light in darker places in some respects. ⁓ So, you know, I think that that is just a really

Jason Allison (31:47)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:52)
helpful thing as opposed to being like, no, like we are God's like sort of hand and answer and solution to the world. Thinking more like actually there's, mean, everyone talks about this. The U S used to be the number one sending country of missionaries to the rest of the world. And I think we're now like the number two receptor nation. All those countries are sending people to us because we are relevant.

we are so godless relative to the rest of the world and they can see it and they're like, maybe Jesus.

Jason Allison (32:24)
I

Well, I was listening to an interview this morning and I've got to get the book and read it. So I don't want to recommend it yet because I haven't read it and that would be silly. the guy I've heard of him before and he's pretty solid from what I know. It's called Joyful Outsiders. It's by Patrick Miller. But he talks about ⁓ six ways, let's see how he words it, six ways to live like Jesus in a disorienting culture.

Rob Paterson (32:54)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (32:54)
And,

and that's kind of where I feel like we, are in a way, but we don't want to admit it. Right. We, we want America to be Christian again, and we forget that it's not. And so we don't know how to live. What's that?

Rob Paterson (33:10)
Not the-

Make America Christian again, Macca?

Jason Allison (33:15)
Macca. Yeah, it's like mac and cheese. Macadamia nuts. I don't know. We got lots there, but you know, we forget that most people honestly don't think of themselves and because they're American and let's be honest if they're especially if they're white and over 50, right? They think of themselves as the majority, not as an outsider. And yet most of all of scripture was written by

Rob Paterson (33:17)
You should get a red hat.

Jason Allison (33:44)
outsiders, right? And it was written to outsiders who were wondering, what are we going to do? Because we're no longer in, we don't have any power. We don't, we are the oppressed. And so when we preach and we teach our people, we have to remember that scripture is not speaking to the majority in control, ruling population. Scripture is talking to the oppressed and the poor, as Jesus puts it, the poor in spirit, the meek.

Rob Paterson (33:46)
Mm.

Jason Allison (34:14)
merciful, the weeping ones. And so it impacts the way we hear as well as the way we teach.

Rob Paterson (34:21)
Yeah, that is so difficult. I think for Americans, you know, we are so unique in that. And I've often said this. I remember when I lived in Indianapolis for eight years and we had a Meyer and a Walmart right across the road from each other. We go to Walmart for certain things and Meyer for certain things. And I remember being in the Meyer. And if I was ever trying to find like this is this is a long time ago now, a CD.

or a ⁓ DVD ⁓ and needed help like, do you guys have this here? That department, for whatever reason, a lot of times, even up to the manager level employed people who were not English speaking as a first language people. And so I was trying to ask like a very basic rudimentary, you you could ask a five year old the question and there was like a language barrier, right? And so what do we do? What do we, we all, you know, I

Jason Allison (34:52)
⁓ yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:18)
I say we all in a very generic way. I do not do this, you know, like very common sentiment is listen, if you're going to be in our country, learn our language, right? Like that's, and then we go on a mission trip or on vacation or whatever, and we go to their country and they're speaking their native tongue and we're like, I'm American, I'm here. You need to speak my language.

Jason Allison (35:47)
I'm the customer.

Rob Paterson (35:48)
Right? We are so ethnocentric that we just think we are God's gift to all things and the center of all things. And if that's kind of the heart and perspective that we maintain rigidly, we're not going to hear the scriptures as they were intended and we're going to miss a lot of stuff.

Jason Allison (35:52)
yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, where I'd say patriotism is fine. Like I don't want to, I don't want you to hear me saying patriotism is bad, but when we see our country as an extension of the church, we are on very thin ice, right? mean, that's where we're starting to really, I can hear the cracking around us, you know, because the church and our country, not the same thing. And I don't think they should be the same thing.

⁓ and that's maybe where I get some people upset with me, but no, don't think the church should be running the country. I think the church should be preaching the gospel in whatever context it happens to find itself. And currently we are in an American con you and I are in an American context and you know, so forth and that's all fine. and so, yeah, I just, I don't know. I just wish that people would really understand that and be, be okay with not being.

the center. We did a conversation, I don't know, it's been a couple of years, we, I was talking about, you know, exegesis and isogesis of how you study scripture. And I don't think I coined it, but I, the phrase of Narcigesis, which is when you are at the center of every Bible verse that you read, you know, and you become narcissistic. I think that's the thing that I feel like we're, we're speaking against. Because if we don't, it becomes

a normal assumption by most people that, this is written to me. This is about us. I can apply it right away to, you know, who I am and who America is.

Rob Paterson (37:46)
I want to say so much more, but I think that's good for now.

Jason Allison (37:51)
Okay,

well, we got time for maybe one last thing and or maybe we can ⁓ we can we can table it. What do you want to do?

Rob Paterson (38:00)
But

let's, yeah, no, let's hit that number three really quick. ⁓ you know, so what one more ODA that we talked about that I think really flow out of those other things is that the line between facts and feelings in our churches, man, it can get blurred so quickly and so easily. You know, how many times do we have people come to us and they say things like, well, you know, I was praying or I was listening to your sermon or I was studying the Bible or

Jason Allison (38:03)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (38:29)
I was watching this video or whatever it is and I just felt, right? Like our feelings, I mean, even these other things we're talking about, oh no, no, no, no, no, I hated the last guy in office and the current guy is just God's answer. And so it's this black and white and one side is all bad and the other side is all wrong and my country's amazing and the rest of the world is deplorable.

Jason Allison (38:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:58)
the ultimately we're like, why? Well, you in sort of these spiritual moments in my life, I had this emotional feeling that trumps every other truth, every other fact, every other reality. And yeah, I mean, the spirit of God, you know, can absolutely, you know, lead and guide and impress upon us.

But man, when we let our feelings dominate and they just trump the facts, because we know that we know that we know, because it was an emotional moment, I think we're again, like you said, the ice is not just cracking all around us, but we might be under the water freezing.

Jason Allison (39:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, and let's be honest, the tension here is we want our people to be open to the leading of the Spirit, right? And so we want to teach them to be sensitive to that still small voice, to what God is leading them to do and so forth. But we also want them to understand that there are some things that, you know, the bad pizza from last night

is saying more to you than the Spirit of God is in this moment. And how do we tell the difference? How do we discern that? that's where I feel like that's why it's kind of a no duh. Like, yeah, we know that. But are we actually teaching our people discernment and wisdom? Are we giving them tools? Are we training them to understand that it's more than just I'm going to say it's more than a feeling, Rob. It's it's ⁓

Rob Paterson (40:29)
⁓ You know, I still

remember I was like probably 21, 22 years old, the first church I was working in just out of college. And Bethany and I were invited over to this couple's house. And of course, we're making small talk over dinner. you know, you just one of those. So how'd you guys meet? And they're like, well, you know, he says me and my former wife and she and her former husband, we were in a band together playing these different bars and stuff like that. And we got God told us we just knew.

that we were God's best for each other and the people we were with like weren't God's best for us. So we got both got divorces and then we got married. And I'm like literally stuffing my mouth with food because like anything I'm gonna say in this moment is gonna completely destroy people and relationships. Cause I just like, you guys are idiots. Like you had a feeling that caused you to literally throw a grenade into two families and make some kind of Frankenstein-y third thing.

And I often say it like this way, and this is not new to me either, you know, orthodoxy comes from community. know, so sometimes you and I, might think things or feel things by ourselves, but if we aren't around other wise, mature people, you know, sometimes like this amazing revolutionary idea I had as soon as I say it out into the real world, like it doesn't even have to hit any other years. I'm like, that's like actually the worst thing ever.

or hit someone else's ears and we realized that and they're like, you know, I don't know why or where that came from, but you know, you can't tell anyone that because it's awful, right? Like we need each other to know if these great ideas that we're feeling are legit or not.

Jason Allison (42:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're, you're spot on with that. Do we have a community of people that we can bounce some things off of, right? That we can, Hey, I'm feeling this and I'm studying this and this is where I want to go with it. Am I even close to staying in a, a, biblically Orthodox path or am I, am I just way off the reservation with this? ⁓ and just having a few people like that around you is, I think it's.

It's just, it's invaluable in so many ways. And this is why I really and truly enjoy and believe in like a denominational structure. And I know every denomination is different and I'm not trying to pick one over the other. But there's something about, know, next week, Rob, you and I are going to be at our regional gathering of leaders and the way we're structured, we're very Baptistic, meaning the local churches, the ultimate authority. I have no authority as a denominational.

person to tell them anything, but there's still a mutual accountability that we can get in a room and we can talk about things and we can say, wait, this is, this is not really lining up with what I think scripture is talking about, or this is, wow, we, we need to change because God is truly, you know, moving in this area. And so we want to lean into that. I just, I think there's a value in that and the cowboy churches that are just on their own, doing their own thing.

man, you you and I have experienced that with some mutual friends that just kind of said, well, God's just leading us to do this. Well, are you going to be connected? No, we're just going to do our thing and see what we think God is. that's dangerous. And that always that always scares me.

Rob Paterson (43:55)
Yeah, amen.

Jason Allison (43:57)
Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess we better land the plane. It's getting late. ⁓ and you know, we have to do something and, and yeah, well, we appreciate you guys. If you can think of any other statements or no statements, we would love to hear from you. ⁓ we would love for you to share them with us. maybe share your reaction to how stupid we were in it. I don't know, but let us know what you're thinking, because we really want to process that and so forth. And

We're looking forward to, I know we've got some guests lined up for interviews over the next few weeks that we'll be getting to and it's going to some good resources. yeah, so reach out, let us know. We love you. We're praying for you. We're cheering for you. And we really think that every person who listens to this podcast is they've got a special place in heaven because they dealt with us for 45 minutes every week. Wow. That's amazing. Rob, love you brother. Talk to you later.

Rob Paterson (44:50)
Amen.

Sounds good.